Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Before reading this post I had decided upon a reply after reading the topic ("How to keep bashed/small/new players interested").
An idea about 'dynamic' salvage popped into my head that rewards the lower players much like XP does. The way this would work is that the salvage gained during a battle would increase or decrease relative to the player's value and the universe average value. Doing so would pay back more of a fleet's value to a lower ranked player, and less to us big, scary alliance-based players. I feel this would make players learn as they build wrong fleets - but rather than ruining their round, it would give them a better chance of playing again. This may also have desirable side effects such as higher scores leading to being exiled around less. I suppose a formula would look like so: Ratio = (Universe_Avg_Value / Your_Value) this would be capped between 0.5 and 3 Salvage_Gained = Ratio * 30% or whatever the current salvage amount is As you can see, If the universe average value is 300,000: Your value is: 100,000 Ratio = 3 Salvage_Gained = 90% of the fleet value lost Your value is: 900,000 Ratio = 0.5 remember its capped between 0.5 and 3 Salvage_Gained = 15% of the fleet value lost Using those specific caps, as far as I can see, no abuse can be done (there is no point in suiciding your fleet to get 90% of the value back in resources and the larger players are not crippled with crazy values of 0.01% salvage). P.S. Since we're trying to help new players practice with fleets, it might be nice to award salvages for attacking... If their ratio is say, 3 or higher (i.e. The universe average value is three times theirs) then they will be rewarded with *some* salvage. However, this brings in the same abusion issues as XP whoring, and also promotes it. Discuss! |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
[00:14] <derry> i agree with the post apart from the last bit about attacking salvage :p
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
same here excellent idea, apart from the salvage for attacks, as this could conceivably lend an advantage to XP whores,
1. keeping value low to get better XP 2. as a bonus they get additional salvage to rebuild and suicide again but otherwise a good idea imo |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Very nice post Arfy :D but i have to agree with derry aswell.. attacking salvage is nonsense..
what? the attackers stay after the battle to collect debris??? :S |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
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EDIT: It sounded a bit "hostile" so I added a smily |
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Maybe a reduced modifier for losses in attack, then? ie - its more benefial to have your fleet killed at home, than away. |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
definatly a great idea
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
I really like this idea.
Currently, the only issue I can see is retaliations against XP whores. But without subversion tricks (a la evil_n00b), most low-value XP whores should be easily stopped by bigger alliances nowadays, so that shouldn't be too much of aproblem! |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
I have to admit, a few rounds ago I was raving for salvage that changed depending on values. I had a different idea though - instead of a ratio of the universe average value and your value (perhaps it might solve xp wh0re problems by using universe_average_score/your_score ?) - I had the differences in attacking and defending values change salvage.
Something like (their_fleet_value/your_fleet_value)*30% salvage, capped at 60% and 10%. So say if someone with 2x your value hit you and killed some of your fleet, then you got 60% salvage, but if someone landed with only say 1/3 of your value and killed your ships, you'd only get 10% salvage on those ships. You can modify the salvage from attacking ships in the same way. --- Edit: The difference with this would be that ANYONE who was in combat and was being hit by fleets 2x that of the defending ship values would gain more salvage. Literally, it's a counter-bash thing not something to compensate for having a small planet. It'd mean that totally killing people was harder, but that you'd have more carefully plan how to completely kill people as the more ships you send along to destroy, the more salvage the person gets. |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
What was your point, appoco?
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
two of them :-)
1) use score not value to work out the salvage rate 2) a different salvage formula |
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i like the initially suggested formula as, like i said on IRC, i dont trust you ;). |
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Edited the post to show reasons for the other one :P and you were saying how you didn't trust all us poms, not just me :( |
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As for spotting fake defence, i think that only comes with time. Even i dont know when a defence is fake, though i can tell when it was fake after i have been contacted on IRC to recall and inform the defender that i was trained in hirr (long ago) and suddenly that def was recalled and 40 more fleets are launched :D. |
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I think that a more valid argument for the use of score, would be that a new player has virtually all their score tied up in value - there is very little XP and thus a massive disparity between a new player (remember, we are trying to help new players, not scanners or XP wh0res [Even though my personal opinion is that XP wh0ring should be encouraged as it detracts from the conventional build-massive-fleet-and-trash-everyone-you-see type "old" pa "strategy"] ), thus, a calculation based on score is more likely to benefit those with the lowest score - ie those who dont know how to attack effectively. Quote:
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
no salvage for attack
dynamic salavage similar to the way XP is allocated might be useful for defence would ideally recode combat first though as slavage isn't handled that well in the combat engine |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
I think this is a good idea. Using score instead of value is better too.
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I'm overall more in favour of Arfy's suggestion based around uni average value, that way those who are, say, twice uni average, can still be brought down in alliance wars even if it's by bigger players. Whilst the really small noobs can't be bashed into the ground by noobs of similar size who send their whole fleets and kill everything... Just IMO :) |
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First off, i completely disagree with salvage for attackers. It doesnt make sense that the ships would go pick up salvage (does anything in PA?). The attackers get roids as their salvage. The defenders get resources for killing ships. Second, giving more salvage to lower valued planets would help them stay in the game. But the formula should not be based on the universe, it should be based on the attacker and defender possibly with restrictions pertaining to the universe so that a 1 mil planet attacked by a 5 mil planet doesnt get 90% salvage :confused: So basically, dynamic salvage may be useful in the game, but it would take countless hours and days to figure out due to the complexity of all the possibilities in question. If it is implemented before being fully thought out, there will obviously be bugs and exploits found in it. So if the PA team decides to do it. make sure its complete and working. if not, i think its fine the way it is (salvage for a new player with not so many ships wont be that much anyways) |
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Then again, it helps to have the numbers correct :\ Quote:
On that last point, though, you are right :). |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
[quote=The Real Arfy]Right... firstly, a 5mil planet attacking a 1mil planet is, well, impossible.[quote]
No it isnt, not if we're basing it on score. |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
[quote=Ron7684][quote=The Real Arfy]Right... firstly, a 5mil planet attacking a 1mil planet is, well, impossible.
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
We all know that score means **** all. Anyway, lets not get into petty squabbles. The fact is, we have bash limits and xp in place to help new and small players already. However, as I said, score counts for nothing - and xp only promotes score. We need to help new players keep their value so that they can continue roiding.
P.S. I cba to find it, but IIRC, Kal already dismissed this idea? |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Wow, its been 18 months since this thread last saw some light. I'd like to bump it and get it some interest again, since we never got a proper answer as to whether its going to be implemented or not.
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
i like it
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
just the answer i was looking for :rolleyes:;)
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Arfy's mum lol
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
like i said 18 months ago, i still like it. But what should be implemented? Value or a Score based system? i dont think that question was fully resolved, though it seemed that salvage for attacking was pretty much sqashed.
<3 |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Value. Since thats what you lose, and we are trying to give back.
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Since the amount of XP gained in attack is now linked to the amount of score a planet has instead of just value, crashing for XP is now also a less attractive option.
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
I'm not sure if you mean what I think you mean, but its not the crashing ships for XP thing that this would necessarily affect. Its where say, an inactive planet with alot less value than most, and then gets attacked and loses fleet will retain alot more of that value than before.
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Oh I see. I was actually in favour of salvage for attackers. I probably should have stated that in my post :(
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Salvage for attackers just increases the gains for better planets - the total opposite of Arfy's proposal
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Incorrect. The better players will already have a better score, and receive relatively little salvage. Smaller/inexperienced players with a bad fleet comp crash their fleet and get a larger percentage of it back.
That was how I read the original proposal anyway. |
Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
Correct. I think I see salvage for attacking as a much less evil as some others. However - salvage for attacking gives the top players more salvage than they currently get (which is what the whole dynamic salvage thing aims against). Sure, the lower value planets will get more, but I don't think they tend to attack so much. The only reason I'd say to implement any kind of salvage for attackers is to promote fleetcatches landing (because they're rather fun).
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?
It's actually a fairly good idea in another aspect as well. Lets say you are like a human in real life, you sleep, you work or go to school, or something like that (People like that exist? BLASPHEMY!!!)
Well...while you are asleep, and you got school right afterwards and will have no access to a computer. This actually would allow you to rebuild your fleet when you can get home and realize that a few jerks desided "Hey, this guy is offline, OBLITREATE THEM!!!" |
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