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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 23:12   #1
The Real Arfy
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Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Before reading this post I had decided upon a reply after reading the topic ("How to keep bashed/small/new players interested").

An idea about 'dynamic' salvage popped into my head that rewards the lower players much like XP does. The way this would work is that the salvage gained during a battle would increase or decrease relative to the player's value and the universe average value.

Doing so would pay back more of a fleet's value to a lower ranked player, and less to us big, scary alliance-based players.

I feel this would make players learn as they build wrong fleets - but rather than ruining their round, it would give them a better chance of playing again. This may also have desirable side effects such as higher scores leading to being exiled around less.

I suppose a formula would look like so:

Ratio = (Universe_Avg_Value / Your_Value) this would be capped between 0.5 and 3
Salvage_Gained = Ratio * 30% or whatever the current salvage amount is

As you can see, If the universe average value is 300,000:

Your value is: 100,000
Ratio = 3
Salvage_Gained = 90% of the fleet value lost

Your value is: 900,000
Ratio = 0.5 remember its capped between 0.5 and 3
Salvage_Gained = 15% of the fleet value lost

Using those specific caps, as far as I can see, no abuse can be done (there is no point in suiciding your fleet to get 90% of the value back in resources and the larger players are not crippled with crazy values of 0.01% salvage).

P.S. Since we're trying to help new players practice with fleets, it might be nice to award salvages for attacking... If their ratio is say, 3 or higher (i.e. The universe average value is three times theirs) then they will be rewarded with *some* salvage. However, this brings in the same abusion issues as XP whoring, and also promotes it.

Discuss!
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 23:17   #2
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

[00:14] <derry> i agree with the post apart from the last bit about attacking salvage
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 23:27   #3
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

same here excellent idea, apart from the salvage for attacks, as this could conceivably lend an advantage to XP whores,

1. keeping value low to get better XP
2. as a bonus they get additional salvage to rebuild and suicide again

but otherwise a good idea imo
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 23:27   #4
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Very nice post Arfy but i have to agree with derry aswell.. attacking salvage is nonsense..
what? the attackers stay after the battle to collect debris??? :S
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 23:34   #5
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

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Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
However, this brings in the same abusion issues as XP whoring, and also promotes it.
Yes I know what I suggested about attacking might be stupid, but I also agreed it was a bad idea. However, most new players lose their fleets on poor attacks. It would be nice to find a way to compensate for this at the same time being abuse-free. I admit it currently needs work!

EDIT: It sounded a bit "hostile" so I added a smily
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 07:50   #6
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Yes I know what I suggested about attacking might be stupid, but I also agreed it was a bad idea. However, most new players lose their fleets on poor attacks. It would be nice to find a way to compensate for this at the same time being abuse-free. I admit it currently needs work!
Well, tbh i would have thought most brand new players would loose the majority of their fleet when they are at home, logged out, and then get trashed by some nutcase who wants to farm their ships.

Maybe a reduced modifier for losses in attack, then? ie - its more benefial to have your fleet killed at home, than away.
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 09:29   #7
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

definatly a great idea
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 10:15   #8
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, tbh i would have thought most brand new players would loose the majority of their fleet when they are at home, logged out, and then get trashed by some nutcase who wants to farm their ships.

Maybe a reduced modifier for losses in attack, then? ie - its more benefial to have your fleet killed at home, than away.
I agree with this and you are right. The reason for my argument of salvage when attacking was to produce this idea as more of a learning technique to building good fleets and recognising defence (and when it is fake). However, you were right in saying that they are more likely to lose ships at home.
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 11:17   #9
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

I really like this idea.

Currently, the only issue I can see is retaliations against XP whores. But without subversion tricks (a la evil_n00b), most low-value XP whores should be easily stopped by bigger alliances nowadays, so that shouldn't be too much of aproblem!
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 12:19   #10
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

I have to admit, a few rounds ago I was raving for salvage that changed depending on values. I had a different idea though - instead of a ratio of the universe average value and your value (perhaps it might solve xp wh0re problems by using universe_average_score/your_score ?) - I had the differences in attacking and defending values change salvage.
Something like (their_fleet_value/your_fleet_value)*30% salvage, capped at 60% and 10%.
So say if someone with 2x your value hit you and killed some of your fleet, then you got 60% salvage, but if someone landed with only say 1/3 of your value and killed your ships, you'd only get 10% salvage on those ships. You can modify the salvage from attacking ships in the same way.

---
Edit:
The difference with this would be that ANYONE who was in combat and was being hit by fleets 2x that of the defending ship values would gain more salvage. Literally, it's a counter-bash thing not something to compensate for having a small planet. It'd mean that totally killing people was harder, but that you'd have more carefully plan how to completely kill people as the more ships you send along to destroy, the more salvage the person gets.
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 12:58   #11
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

What was your point, appoco?
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 13:08   #12
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

two of them :-)
1) use score not value to work out the salvage rate
2) a different salvage formula
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 13:15   #13
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
two of them :-)
1) use score not value to work out the salvage rate
2) a different salvage formula
Well, you did mention both of those things, but you didnt say why - which was what i was hinting at . You just said 'this is what i suggest waaay back when the universe was about 1cm in diametre and it was actually the lemmings who controlled the muddy pond where life spawned from' etc.

i like the initially suggested formula as, like i said on IRC, i dont trust you .
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 13:25   #14
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, you did mention both of those things, but you didnt say why - which was what i was hinting at . You just said 'this is what i suggest waaay back when the universe was about 1cm in diametre and it was actually the lemmings who controlled the muddy pond where life spawned from' etc.

i like the initially suggested formula as, like i said on IRC, i dont trust you .
I did with the first one - using score not value means that XP is taken into consideration. Extrapolating, this would mean that XP high races like cathaar (and Xan?) don't get more of a salvage benefit just because of their race. I feel it'd probably be more fair.

Edited the post to show reasons for the other one :P
and you were saying how you didn't trust all us poms, not just me
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 13:29   #15
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
I agree with this and you are right. The reason for my argument of salvage when attacking was to produce this idea as more of a learning technique to building good fleets and recognising defence (and when it is fake). However, you were right in saying that they are more likely to lose ships at home.
I can see where you are coming from, and i also agree that it needs work in that area. Hopefully, my Fleet guides and/or in-game (at the very least, links and instructions) to Battlecalculators will also go along way to recognising the nuances in building good strong effective fleets.

As for spotting fake defence, i think that only comes with time. Even i dont know when a defence is fake, though i can tell when it was fake after i have been contacted on IRC to recall and inform the defender that i was trained in hirr (long ago) and suddenly that def was recalled and 40 more fleets are launched .
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Unread 5 Aug 2005, 13:35   #16
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I did with the first one - using score not value means that XP is taken into consideration. Extrapolating, this would mean that XP high races like cathaar (and Xan?) don't get more of a salvage benefit just because of their race. I feel it'd probably be more fair.
Well, that doesnt make sense. I was under the impression that Xan in particular, and Cathaar to a lesser extent, were the most brittle races in the universe. Thus, it would make sense that their ships die more often, to a much greater degree, and would thus warrant full salvage than, say, a Terran who should never ever loose their fleet as their ships are just massive lumps of armour. Indeed, if a terran looses their fleet, shouldnt they be punished for absolute stupidity instead? .

I think that a more valid argument for the use of score, would be that a new player has virtually all their score tied up in value - there is very little XP and thus a massive disparity between a new player (remember, we are trying to help new players, not scanners or XP wh0res [Even though my personal opinion is that XP wh0ring should be encouraged as it detracts from the conventional build-massive-fleet-and-trash-everyone-you-see type "old" pa "strategy"] ), thus, a calculation based on score is more likely to benefit those with the lowest score - ie those who dont know how to attack effectively.


Quote:
and you were saying how you didn't trust all us poms, not just me
I was just poking fun mate. everyone knows that aussies never trust poms .
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Unread 8 Aug 2005, 16:28   #17
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

no salvage for attack
dynamic salavage similar to the way XP is allocated might be useful for defence
would ideally recode combat first though as slavage isn't handled that well in the combat engine
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Unread 8 Aug 2005, 16:53   #18
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

I think this is a good idea. Using score instead of value is better too.
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Unread 8 Aug 2005, 17:00   #19
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Something like (their_fleet_value/your_fleet_value)*30% salvage, capped at 60% and 10%.
So say if someone with 2x your value hit you and killed some of your fleet, then you got 60% salvage, but if someone landed with only say 1/3 of your value and killed your ships, you'd only get 10% salvage on those ships. You can modify the salvage from attacking ships in the same way.
How does this work with multiple attackers? Would it be easy to implement into the code?

I'm overall more in favour of Arfy's suggestion based around uni average value, that way those who are, say, twice uni average, can still be brought down in alliance wars even if it's by bigger players. Whilst the really small noobs can't be bashed into the ground by noobs of similar size who send their whole fleets and kill everything...

Just IMO
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 05:07   #20
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

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Originally Posted by Gate
How does this work with multiple attackers? Would it be easy to implement into the code?
I was talking about a thread before, salvage for attackers i believe. and i think making the salvage system any more complicated than it is now would just make things bad.

First off, i completely disagree with salvage for attackers. It doesnt make sense that the ships would go pick up salvage (does anything in PA?). The attackers get roids as their salvage. The defenders get resources for killing ships.

Second, giving more salvage to lower valued planets would help them stay in the game. But the formula should not be based on the universe, it should be based on the attacker and defender possibly with restrictions pertaining to the universe so that a 1 mil planet attacked by a 5 mil planet doesnt get 90% salvage

So basically, dynamic salvage may be useful in the game, but it would take countless hours and days to figure out due to the complexity of all the possibilities in question. If it is implemented before being fully thought out, there will obviously be bugs and exploits found in it. So if the PA team decides to do it. make sure its complete and working. if not, i think its fine the way it is (salvage for a new player with not so many ships wont be that much anyways)
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 10:44   #21
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron7684
I was talking about a thread before, salvage for attackers i believe. and i think making the salvage system any more complicated than it is now would just make things bad.

First off, i completely disagree with salvage for attackers. It doesnt make sense that the ships would go pick up salvage (does anything in PA?). The attackers get roids as their salvage. The defenders get resources for killing ships.

Second, giving more salvage to lower valued planets would help them stay in the game. But the formula should not be based on the universe, it should be based on the attacker and defender possibly with restrictions pertaining to the universe so that a 1 mil planet attacked by a 5 mil planet doesnt get 90% salvage

So basically, dynamic salvage may be useful in the game, but it would take countless hours and days to figure out due to the complexity of all the possibilities in question. If it is implemented before being fully thought out, there will obviously be bugs and exploits found in it. So if the PA team decides to do it. make sure its complete and working. if not, i think its fine the way it is (salvage for a new player with not so many ships wont be that much anyways)
Right... firstly, a 5mil planet attacking a 1mil planet is, well, impossible. Secondly, we have beta testing to ensure there are no bugs and/or exploits. Thirdly, I've already stated that the idea of salvage for attackers is bad, and I retracted it.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 10:59   #22
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
Right... firstly, a 5mil planet attacking a 1mil planet is, well, impossible.
I am sure that this was merely used as an example to highlight what would happen in an extreme instance. Just because the numbers are wrong dont immediately dismiss the resoning or preposition made by the person.

Then again, it helps to have the numbers correct :\

Quote:
Secondly, we have beta testing to ensure there are no bugs and/or exploits.
As you might have noticed this round, just because we beta test doesnt mean that there are no bugs. Indeed, there have been quite a few this round :\

On that last point, though, you are right .
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 16:50   #23
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

[quote=The Real Arfy]Right... firstly, a 5mil planet attacking a 1mil planet is, well, impossible.[quote]

No it isnt, not if we're basing it on score.
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 16:58   #24
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

[quote=Ron7684][quote=The Real Arfy]Right... firstly, a 5mil planet attacking a 1mil planet is, well, impossible.
Quote:

No it isnt, not if we're basing it on score.
Well you knew what he meant so why try and be the sarcastic annoying guy?
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 17:08   #25
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Quote:
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Well you knew what he meant so why try and be the sarcastic annoying guy?
As Arfy was being the sarcastic annoying guy as he knew too? .
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Unread 4 Sep 2005, 17:15   #26
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

We all know that score means **** all. Anyway, lets not get into petty squabbles. The fact is, we have bash limits and xp in place to help new and small players already. However, as I said, score counts for nothing - and xp only promotes score. We need to help new players keep their value so that they can continue roiding.

P.S. I cba to find it, but IIRC, Kal already dismissed this idea?
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 19:44   #27
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Wow, its been 18 months since this thread last saw some light. I'd like to bump it and get it some interest again, since we never got a proper answer as to whether its going to be implemented or not.
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Unread 29 Mar 2007, 21:34   #28
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

i like it
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Unread 30 Mar 2007, 10:07   #29
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

just the answer i was looking for
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Unread 7 Apr 2007, 21:38   #30
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Arfy's mum lol
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 03:14   #31
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

like i said 18 months ago, i still like it. But what should be implemented? Value or a Score based system? i dont think that question was fully resolved, though it seemed that salvage for attacking was pretty much sqashed.

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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 09:43   #32
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Value. Since thats what you lose, and we are trying to give back.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 12:35   #33
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Since the amount of XP gained in attack is now linked to the amount of score a planet has instead of just value, crashing for XP is now also a less attractive option.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 12:52   #34
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

I'm not sure if you mean what I think you mean, but its not the crashing ships for XP thing that this would necessarily affect. Its where say, an inactive planet with alot less value than most, and then gets attacked and loses fleet will retain alot more of that value than before.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 13:08   #35
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Oh I see. I was actually in favour of salvage for attackers. I probably should have stated that in my post
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 16:29   #36
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Salvage for attackers just increases the gains for better planets - the total opposite of Arfy's proposal
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 16:49   #37
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Incorrect. The better players will already have a better score, and receive relatively little salvage. Smaller/inexperienced players with a bad fleet comp crash their fleet and get a larger percentage of it back.

That was how I read the original proposal anyway.
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Unread 9 Apr 2007, 17:12   #38
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

Correct. I think I see salvage for attacking as a much less evil as some others. However - salvage for attacking gives the top players more salvage than they currently get (which is what the whole dynamic salvage thing aims against). Sure, the lower value planets will get more, but I don't think they tend to attack so much. The only reason I'd say to implement any kind of salvage for attackers is to promote fleetcatches landing (because they're rather fun).
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Unread 10 Apr 2007, 13:44   #39
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Re: Dynamic salvage - a way to retain players?

It's actually a fairly good idea in another aspect as well. Lets say you are like a human in real life, you sleep, you work or go to school, or something like that (People like that exist? BLASPHEMY!!!)

Well...while you are asleep, and you got school right afterwards and will have no access to a computer. This actually would allow you to rebuild your fleet when you can get home and realize that a few jerks desided "Hey, this guy is offline, OBLITREATE THEM!!!"
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