Why is it degrading for women to make pr0n movies

[Cynical Oracle]

I don't really get it.

[Cynical Oracle]

We have evolved past that a long time ago.

[Dante Hicks]

I haven't heard that argument in a while. Most feminists I've spoken to recently claim porn degrades women in general, not the specific women who partake in such movies.

[Cynical Oracle]

I recently had this discussion over a cup of coffee. In some shape or form, they are beeing used, like hookers, wich I also think should be allowed to charge for ****ing stupid ugly guys.

[SilverSmoke]

I am also being used by my employer :/

[Cynical Oracle]

Exacatly.

[Dante Hicks]

I think the argument is that certain activities are more degrading in our society than others. So having a job where you wear a stupid giant hot-dog costume all day long is considered more degrading than one where your "uniform" is a suit and tie.

Obviously if you enjoy wearing a hot-dog costume, and you're doing it out of free choice (i.e. you have lots of other options) then it ceases to be degrading.

[Cynical Oracle]

Not as an institution tho. The general ****wit mass will still consider it fairly degrading to work at McDonalds no?

[Nodrog]

Because the prevalence of pornography in modern society is a conscious effort to destroy one of the last remaining aspects of 'private life' that individuals have. The massive shift towards socialism, communism, and other highly collectivist ideologies in the 20th centuary has resulted in many people believing (and trying to make others believe) that privacy is a thing of the past - an outdated and idealistic 17th century concept. All forms of personal self-expression are derided as being anti-social and selfish - not compatable with the neo-fascist goal of enslaving mankind to their neighbours wishes. The new paradigm of the modern day is to force people to live their lives solely in public, and for the public, with no secrets, wants or private desires kept from society. Sex and love pose a problem to this however, being 2 of the most intrinsically private acts that a person can perform or feel respectively. Modern pornography is an attempt to destroy this privacy, by rendering the sexual act unto the public at large in a purely mechanical and scripted form devoid of any passion, reason, or deeper feelings (Marx would approve, given this is one of the of the purest and most disgusting examples of "scientific materialism" yet to be inflicted on society) and henceforth devaluing one of the most beautiful modes of self-expression available to the individual. Pornography fundamentally strips its viewers of their privacy, their humanity, their deepest feelings and wants, resulting into them degenerating into bitter, cynical, jaded, emotionless and valueless materialistic robots devoid of passion and the will to live, rendering them completely subservient and enslaved to the whims of a collectivist "public society".

[Cynical Oracle]

Shit happens. Free will is a drag.

[Dante Hicks]

People didn't interfere in each others lives before Karl Marx, pass it on.

p.s.

Modern pornography is an attempt to destroy this privacy, by rendering the sexual act unto the public at large in a purely mechanical and scripted form devoid of any passion, reason, or deeper feelings (Marx would approve, given this is one of the of the purest and most disgusting examples of "scientific materialism" yet to be inflicted on society) and henceforth devaluing one of the most beautiful modes of self-expression available to the individual.

A++.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle

The general ****wit mass will still consider it fairly degrading to work at McDonalds no?

Indeed. And I think that's where the issue of pornography comes into it. If your daughter came home from college and told you she had quit to start a new career sucking black men off on camera, I'd presume you'd consider her degraded, no?

[Cynical Oracle]

But it is her choice.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Indeed. And I think that's where the issue of pornography comes into it. If your daughter came home from college and told you she had quit to start a new career sucking black men off on camera, I'd presume you'd consider her degraded, no?

Dont you think that it is the partially the continual insistence of you and your ilk that working for money/profit/capitalism is inherantly 'evil' and 'exploitive' that has resulted in people being so upset that sex is now seen as "something those without access to the means of production have to resort to in order to earn money to function within an intrinsically corrupty capitalist society - dance, dance and suck that penis for the amusement of the bourgeous, you stupid peasant girl!"? Because we all know that if people are getting paid for it, it must be demeaning and indicative of false consciousness rite?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle

But it is her choice.

Obviously, I don't think anyone is disputing that.

But anyway, the feminist argument is that the choice individuals have is restricted either by certain gender bias in the media, or because of actual physical limitations. So it might be that young girls get involved in porn (and perhaps especially prostitution) because they have very limited alternatives. I don't think anyone really "chooses" to give $5 blow-jobs for their next crack hit, or whatever.

Of course, in the example I've given we're presuming your daughter was not under financial or physical duress so it'd be different as you've said.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Dont you think that it is the partially the continual insistence of you and your ilk that working for money/profit/capitalism is inherantly 'evil' and 'exploitive' that has resulted in people being so upset

Well, I wouldn't see prostitutes as any more "exploited" (unless there is some coercion involved) than any other personal service. I don't see why sucking a man's penis for money is any more an exploitative relationship than giving him a massage, or cleaning his house or whatever.

There are some differences of course, a pilot is technically my "servant" in an abstract sense when I'm an airline customer, but he has a degree of autonomy in his work, the respect of his colleagues and society in general, an ample salary, etc, etc.

If peopel feel guilty/upset about whores because of the evil commies then they should be equally guilty about every other wage relationship in society (which patently does not seem the case). I'd rather attribute it to remnants of religious morality. Are whores better treated in societies untouched by "socialist ideas" (say feudal socities or whatever?). I'd say no.

[Nodrog]

I love the contrast created between Dante's grounded, rationalist posts and Toccata's insane paranoid ramblings whenever they both post in a thread related to politics

[KaneED]

dunno but my flatmate likes them sot ahts

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I love the contrast created between Dante's grounded, rationalist posts and Toccata's insane paranoid ramblings whenever they both post in a thread related to politics

It's just because I make less typographical errors, which creates the illusion that I'm sane.

p.s. I just had a haircut. My hair is now short. I've sold out. :eek:

edit : Corrected ironic mistake.

[queball]

Rationalism \Ra"tion*al*ism\, n. [Cf. F. rationalisme.]
1. (Theol.) The doctrine or system of those who deduce their
religious opinions from reason or the understanding, as
distinct from, or opposed to, revelation.

2. (Philos.) The system that makes rational power the
ultimate test of truth; -- opposed to sensualism, or
sensationalism, and empiricism. --Fleming.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Do you look like you're 12 now.

Yes. Now the 13 year olds I come onto will think I'm too young. D'oh.

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

...prevalence of pornography in modern society is a conscious effort to destroy one of the last remaining aspects of 'private life' that individuals have.

I'm not sure I agree with this 'conscious effort' thing. An effort on the part of whom?

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Modern pornography is an attempt to destroy this privacy, by rendering the sexual act unto the public at large in a purely mechanical and scripted form devoid of any passion, reason, or deeper feelings...

Modern pornography is aimed at single men who just want to get their jollies on a nighttime no? Generally conducted in the privacy of their own home. I watch a fair amount of porn and I still make love passionately with my girlfriend.
I don't feel stripped of deeper feeling when I watch porn any more than I'm stripped of empathy when I run round shooting people in the face in games.

[acropolis]

I've also heard that oral sex is degrading to women, because it teaches men that women are just objects that exist to pleasure them, and anal sex degrades them by making women look like toys for the poking. The same argument can be extrapolated to vaginal sex, but who's counting.

As to porn, why isn't gay porn degrading to men? I've never heard anyone make that argument, but the principles are clearly the same. And in response to the rather weak standard counterargument, then why don't people complain about how cream skinned four year old Laotian boys are degraded by all the porn they are in? In at least 95% of the porn I see they are everywhere, but you never hear anything about that.

[Deciduous]

95% of the porn you look at has 4 year old boys in?

[Cynical Oracle]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Obviously, I don't think anyone is disputing that.

But anyway, the feminist argument is that the choice individuals have is restricted either by certain gender bias in the media, or because of actual physical limitations. So it might be that young girls get involved in porn (and perhaps especially prostitution) because they have very limited alternatives. I don't think anyone really "chooses" to give $5 blow-jobs for their next crack hit, or whatever.

Of course, in the example I've given we're presuming your daughter was not under financial or physical duress so it'd be different as you've said.

Fair enought, but the porn actresses hardly make $5 each time they appear in a movie.

I'm more leaning on the jealousy bit of the matter. Women in work don't like that other women make 100x more, ****ing and sucking on TV screens around the world.

It's more degrading towards women to deny them the privilege, as it has become, to use their body for whatever purpous they feel like.

$5 sucky suck is an entirly different thing

[Cynical Oracle]

Yeah, but not for the women participating. There are probably just as many preferations to sexual relations as there are people.

[Deciduous]

Why is it degrading? It isn't.
It's just a job. Noone breaks into the homes of these women and forces them to suck someone off for the camera. They could get up at any point and say 'fk it, I'm not doing this', just like I could if I didn't like my job.
Taking it in the ass, or wherever, is just one of the shittier (hoho) parts of the job just like I really hate writing reports, but it's necessary for me to complete my work.

[madi]

sex is sex
not love
and people have been getting their jollys by watching other people doing it for as long as its been around

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

Noone breaks into the homes of these women and forces them to suck someone off for the camera. They could get up at any point and say 'fk it, I'm not doing this', just like I could if I didn't like my job.

So, are you saying that no job where you're not physically coerced can be degrading?

[Deciduous]

I'm saying in pornography (y'know, the point of this thread) noone is forcing these women to do it.

[Cynical Oracle]

In Norway, pornographic material is banned. Mild erotic movies are allowed to some degree. That's pretty degrading if you ask me. Degrading towards human nature.

[madi]

Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle

Degrading towards human nature.

the point being it is human nature
why is that degrading?

[Cynical Oracle]

Because society is full of false morals, and culture, as opposite of nature, limits our right to express our natural instincts.

Yes you **** to reproduce, but it's also very pleasurable, however, your not allowed to think so, atleast not openly.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

I'm saying in pornography (y'know, the point of this thread) noone is forcing these women to do it.

I don't think anyone claimed they were _forced_. What I was asking is are you saying that if you're not FORCED to do something it can't be degrading?

[Cynical Oracle]

I would claim that aslong as you do something of your own free will, the only condemnation you will get is from others. You are not degrading yourself. Others are.

[Cynical Oracle]

Not unless society condems it. If you where the only guy alive, ****ed a girl and taped cumming on her face, that would not be degrading, unless someone who dissaproved of such actions where to see it.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle

I would claim that aslong as you do something of your own free will, the only condemnation you will get is from others. You are not degrading yourself. Others are.

Define 'free will' though (not in a philosophical sense).

Let's imagine a girl, 19 years old, quite attractive and of moderate intelligence. One day, she is spotted by a talent scout (or whatever) on the street who tells her she could be a model. She's going through a low point in her life, she hasn't got much money and this kind of positive attention makes her feel good (and plus, she could do with the money).

She then goes to an audition and the agency tells her that she can't be a cat-walk model (too fat/short or something) but she might be able to do glamour. She is uncomfortable with glamour, but she doesn't want to seem a prude so she get's nude. Cash++.

She feels pretty bad about it, and vows she won't do it again, but her normal job (in Boots or whatever) isn't going well, and she needs money to support her stoner boyfriend. So she goes back. And again. And again. Then the work starts to dry up. They ask if she's willing to do something a bit more adventurous. Nervously, she accepts, and does her first "pornographic" scene. She feels terrible, completley ashamed and starts doing drugs to take her mind off what she's become. She slowly does more and more "extreme" porn until eventually she's got 3 guys up her arse every Friday evening.

At no point has this girl been coerced to do anything. Has she been degraded? Has she degraded herself?

p.s. I'm not claiming this is how a typical porn star starts. I'm sure they all do because they love the ****, and every moment is like a fabulous explosion of happiness and excitement.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle

Degrading towards human nature.

Yeah, stupid state stopping me from clubbing females and dragging them back to my cave by their hair.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

p.s. I'm not claiming this is how a typical porn star starts. I'm sure they all do because they love the ****, and every moment is like a fabulous explosion of happiness and excitement.

it was anecdotally proven that female porn stars generally ge ttheir start by being raped before the age of 13.

[Cynical Oracle]

Defining free will.

Free will comes together with something called taking responsibility for your actions, and stand for what you have done.

Offcourse people differ, and come such an opportunity, there is nothing that really is degrading towards her if she can handle herself. Obviously in your story, the girl took responsibility for herself, and as such, should not be ashamed of what she has done (to some extent ). On the other hand, she started dooing drugs, to handle this situation, and to be perfectly honest: There is no cure for stupidity. That she did what she did was stupid and not thought through, but I hardly think she degraded herself more than she wanted to. Call it her self inflicted punnishment to acting stupid. I can't say I've been happy with all my jobs, but I've never regret anything I've done to 'survive', or maintain my economical standard.

Put in other words; If you cannot stand for what you have done, you have crossed your own limits, and pressured yourself (by what others find acceptable), or been pressured by society, but degrading yourself from 'free will' is not a part of it.

[Cynical Oracle]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Yeah, stupid state stopping me from clubbing females and dragging them back to my cave by their hair.

Out of topic again Mr. Mark?

[Deciduous]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

At no point has this girl been coerced to do anything. Has she been degraded? Has she degraded herself?

Surely it's a matter of opinion.
Take another example, cleaning toilets say. You might think that you're above that but someone else might just see it as good honest work.
Someone viewing the situation from outside may view people who clean toilets as scum, whereas others might respect them.

In your story that girl could have decided to change direction at any point.
I think it's just a matter of pride, of how people view themselves and how much they care about how other people view them.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle

Out of topic again Mr. Mark?

No, it's a perfectly relevent counterargument to the thing I quoted.

[JonnyBGood]

It isn't. However most people are pretty shallow and value appearances more than anything else (hello nod's rant).

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Deciduous

You might think that you're above that but someone else might just see it as good honest work.

Of course. I'm talking about a situation where someone feels bad about themselves as a result of their own actions. It's not about blame (yes, of course it's their fault in the strictest sense) but that doesn't seem to change anything re : whether they've been degraded or not.

[Deciduous]

Well isn't that the definition of degradation? She might have lost her pride, dignity and whatever else, but that doesn't mean everyone in pornography will do the same. It seems entirely subjective, and we can't ask each individual porn actress.

[Nodrog]

Why do you all say its degrading for women to be 'coerced' into doing porn when almost all of you would cut off your left legs for the chance of being a male porn star?

[Nodrog]

Most romantic comedies are degrading to men, whats your point?

[Knight Theamion]

it is degenerating in such a way that i never met a real girl that fancied taking a shot in the face or getting done hard up the ass, while some guys do expect them to be 'porn actresses'

[Radical Edward]

degrading relative to what?