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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 12:54   #1
furball
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Taking bets

For those that don't know or haven't heard, a significant number of EXhilition got closed last night. There's also still 'more to come'.

So, taking bets. How many will bite the dust? Currently on 60 members, I predict down to 45.









oh, and ofc this was never any suprise
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 12:58   #2
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Re: Taking bets

we've seen it in pia, i spoke to BaSSe before the round and he assured me it wouldn't happen, but with or whithout his knowledge it seems to have happened.

no surprises from me tbh
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:00   #3
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Re: Taking bets

down to 51 originally.

Many ahve had 30% roids taken + a fleet cap to be reopened (a huge mistake in my opinion, just makes cheaters prosper, cause they must ahve capped more than 30% due to cheating).

Then more will be closed as round progresses
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:01   #4
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Re: Taking bets

Shocker!
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:07   #5
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
down to 51 originally.

Many ahve had 30% roids taken + a fleet cap to be reopened (a huge mistake in my opinion, just makes cheaters prosper, cause they must ahve capped more than 30% due to cheating).

Then more will be closed as round progresses
This reminds me of the round where Rabba got closed and then re-opened with nothing more than a slap on the wrist. I hope PA Team really isn't as blind as Prince was.


Explains their high average score
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:22   #6
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Re: Taking bets

I wonder how many ziks they have....
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:23   #7
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Re: Taking bets

if they're in breach of the eula, delete them, eod
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:38   #8
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Re: Taking bets

This is no surprise of course but what I don’t get is the mild reactions? To remove a few roids they can’t mine anyway won’t "teach" cheaters anything. If you cheat you get closed and deleted, it shouldn’t be hard to understand the effect of this.

As long as it is worth it cheating will always be a problem in planetarion.

And this goes for every cheater caught out there. There have been planets closed outside Exilition.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:42   #9
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Smile Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
down to 51 originally.

Many ahve had 30% roids taken + a fleet cap to be reopened (a huge mistake in my opinion, just makes cheaters prosper, cause they must ahve capped more than 30% due to cheating).

Then more will be closed as round progresses
I saw this and boggled.

This is shocking behaviour from PA team. If you cheat, you get deleted - there is no other punishment. There are people who have lost out due to their cheating, could lose out again and the only right way to right this is deletion. I think they should seriously reconsider and delete as this is the only way to get rid of cheats in game by catching and deleting them.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 13:55   #10
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Re: Taking bets

well i can't say i'm surprised really that a slap on the wrist like that would do... tbh removing all score/roids might be an ok punishment... removing 30% is just silly tbh.

it's an incentive to cheat if nothing else
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:06   #11
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Re: Taking bets

how bout getting the details before flaming ? :P
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:08   #12
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Re: Taking bets

anyone who is being closed has to be for a reason or they wouldn't close... if they remove 30% it's a punishment... only reason to punish is for cheating in some way or another. so if they get punished they cheated in some way or another and should be closed.

even if it is only abusing the exile bug. abusing a known bug is still cheating according to the rules and else the rules kinda do suck
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:08   #13
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Re: Taking bets

there are a variety of ways in which the eula can be breached, some are more serious than others so punnishments vary.

Exilition members were not the only people closed recently, several 1up and WP members have also been closed. We are working through all the alliances and taking action as is appropriate. Exilition just happened to be the first to be processed.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:15   #14
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
anyone who is being closed has to be for a reason or they wouldn't close... if they remove 30% it's a punishment... only reason to punish is for cheating in some way or another. so if they get punished they cheated in some way or another and should be closed.

even if it is only abusing the exile bug. abusing a known bug is still cheating according to the rules and else the rules kinda do suck
well sometimes reasons are wrong etc... and they are really inocent
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:20   #15
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Re: Taking bets

Can you give an example of an offence the admins think qualify for a small roid removal and what qualifies for deletion?

I assume:

Account sharing = deletion
Multying = deletion
Bug abuse (unless it happend by mistake) = deletion
roid/shipfarming = deletion
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:25   #16
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Re: Taking bets

Ex- Dragons/LDK.

What did you guys expect?
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:35   #17
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddah
well sometimes reasons are wrong etc... and they are really inocent

i agree fully with you mate, BUT if they really are innocent i see no reason at all for a 30% compensation either, which is the thing what i'm wondering about.
if they are innocent they wouldn't be punished imo
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 14:38   #18
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I saw this and boggled.

This is shocking behaviour from PA team. If you cheat, you get deleted - there is no other punishment. There are people who have lost out due to their cheating, could lose out again and the only right way to right this is deletion. I think they should seriously reconsider and delete as this is the only way to get rid of cheats in game by catching and deleting them.
Bye Bye mod position for you Lokken

Although I agree if they cheat they should be be deleted. Not only will their cheating have gained them more directly than they are losing but think of the gains they have made over others indirectly due to their actions (ie things like the losses from their attacks, the less defence that alliances then have from the losses from the cheaters attacks ect).

By cheating they have adversly affected others games and they should be deleted for that.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:04   #19
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
Can you give an example of an offence the admins think qualify for a small roid removal and what qualifies for deletion?

I assume:

Account sharing = deletion
Multying = deletion
Bug abuse (unless it happend by mistake) = deletion
roid/shipfarming = deletion
well u mention bug abuse, its often hard to know whether it was fully intentional, or whether the person knew it was a bug, so unless there is some very godd evidence the games from the bug will be removed rather than deleting all involved.

an example of when a lesser punnishment than deletion may be used would be perhaps for a slight excpetion violation, or perhaps where there is a plalsuble explanantion for something but the people really should have asked for an exception first.

e.g. Billy goes to visit Doug and they both play pa and defend each other when attacked. they did not ask for an excpetion and did interact, but it was only say twice and they may not have cheated, so a small punnishment for not follwoing procedures is called for to encourage them to follow procedures properly in the future.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:06   #20
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
well u mention bug abuse, its often hard to know whether it was fully intentional, or whether the person knew it was a bug, so unless there is some very godd evidence the games from the bug will be removed rather than deleting all involved.

an example of when a lesser punnishment than deletion may be used would be perhaps for a slight excpetion violation, or perhaps where there is a plalsuble explanantion for something but the people really should have asked for an exception first.

e.g. Billy goes to visit Doug and they both play pa and defend each other when attacked. they did not ask for an excpetion and did interact, but it was only say twice and they may not have cheated, so a small punnishment for not follwoing procedures is called for to encourage them to follow procedures properly in the future.
This is Dragons though, not like its gonna be a Bill and Doug situation, it will be Bill, Doug his Sister Wendy her daughter Joanna, Joanna's dog and cat, and the cats litter, still GOOD JOB!
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:22   #21
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
e.g. Billy goes to visit Doug and they both play pa and defend each other when attacked. they did not ask for an excpetion and did interact, but it was only say twice and they may not have cheated, so a small punnishment for not follwoing procedures is called for to encourage them to follow procedures properly in the future.
How do you know they visit each other, it might only be used as an excuse? To live in the same city shouldn’t be an excuse for multying. To account share and defend each other (only) twice can make a huge difference of the outcome for the planets involved. I know a few pa players in my city but I wouldnt dream about logging in to my account at their PC.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:25   #22
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Re: Taking bets

Is it still April the 1st? Cuz this is f**ing ridiculous... just a desperate way to keep cheaters in the game imo...
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:33   #23
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
an example of when a lesser punnishment than deletion may be used would be perhaps for a slight excpetion violation, or perhaps where there is a plalsuble explanantion for something but the people really should have asked for an exception first.

e.g. Billy goes to visit Doug and they both play pa and defend each other when attacked. they did not ask for an excpetion and did interact, but it was only say twice and they may not have cheated, so a small punnishment for not follwoing procedures is called for to encourage them to follow procedures properly in the future.
Ignorance of the rules can be no defence. It's been hammered into every player who's been playing the game for the last few rounds that accounts on the same pc CANNOT INTERACT, otherwise it is evidence of multiing. If two players meet up from the same alliance (perfectly possible), then interact with their accounts, then this looks like something tantamount to multiing. Multiing = deletion, I thought we were fairly clear on this.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:34   #24
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Re: Taking bets

Kal,

If you ask for an exception, you arent allowed to defend the planet concerned etc.

So why should it be different if people dont ahve an exception but use one as an excuse?
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:35   #25
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
How do you know they visit each other, it might only be used as an excuse? To live in the same city shouldn’t be an excuse for multying. To account share and defend each other (only) twice can make a huge difference of the outcome for the planets involved. I know a few pa players in my city but I wouldnt dream about logging in to my account at their PC.
of course it might only be an excuse, thats why they should have asked for an exception - in this scenario there were only a copple of interactions and hence if there was cheating there was virtually no gain hence a small punnishment for not registering for an exception is warrented. had they been interacting lots on the same ip for a long period of time they would need a better excuse to avoid being left closed.

we have to keep a balence otherwise we would close far to many innocent players
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:36   #26
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
several 1up and WP members have also been closed.
Uh oh :eek:
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:38   #27
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Ignorance of the rules can be no defence. It's been hammered into every player who's been playing the game for the last few rounds that accounts on the same pc CANNOT INTERACT, otherwise it is evidence of multiing. If two players meet up from the same alliance (perfectly possible), then interact with their accounts, then this looks like something tantamount to multiing. Multiing = deletion, I thought we were fairly clear on this.
it might not be the same PC for a start, one of them could have brough his laptop for example. Some people also don't understand what an IP is. I'm not saying this is the case with Exilition, its just hypotheticals.

Also remember that its not hammered into the mind of new pa players so some people may be given the benefit of the doubt.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:40   #28
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Re: Taking bets

Dragons arent new players.

Dragons are old cheaters.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:41   #29
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
of course it might only be an excuse, thats why they should have asked for an exception - in this scenario there were only a copple of interactions and hence if there was cheating there was virtually no gain hence a small punnishment for not registering for an exception is warrented. had they been interacting lots on the same ip for a long period of time they would need a better excuse to avoid being left closed.

we have to keep a balence otherwise we would close far to many innocent players
Perhaps just a couple of interactions and I can accept non-closure, with a definate on no gain. But you set a dangerous precedent here - where is the boundary between this 'small punishment' and closure?
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:42   #30
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Kal,

If you ask for an exception, you arent allowed to defend the planet concerned etc.

So why should it be different if people dont ahve an exception but use one as an excuse?
for example u ar eonly warned that u need an excpetion if u sign up with the same ip as someone - if you then moved to live with someone then u would need an excpetion but it might not occur to u if u r using the same internt conenction but different PCs.

another example may be people going to univeristy or internet cafes that only have a single IP for all users, people may not realise this is a problem and do nothing about it.


Of course we don;t accept any old excuse, and the excuse would have to account for all of the information etc.


the point is MH is not a precise science there are lots of variables and factors, i'me sure if we explained the precise details of all cases then people would probably agree with the decisions, but thats not something we are willing to do.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:43   #31
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Re: Taking bets

Forgot to say something up there... you know that if you just give the cheaters a little punishment they'll just continue as they think that's 'ok'? Here's an example: Mr Joe enters a jewerly-store, pulls out his shotgun and orders them to put all the gold and diamonds into his bag. The next day he gets caught by the police and is facing court in the next month. In court he gets sentenced to this: "We're taking 30% of what you stole, you might keep the rest". You think that will stop him from stealing?

DO YOU GET MY F**ING POINT?
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:44   #32
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonentity
Perhaps just a couple of interactions and I can accept non-closure, with a definate on no gain. But you set a dangerous precedent here - where is the boundary between this 'small punishment' and closure?
well if we close first time and then reopen if they do it again they will get closed for good, by actibg early and closing then reopening we can head off potential large scale cheating before it happens which is surely better for the game and its long term growth.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:45   #33
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
Forgot to say something up there... you know that if you just give the cheaters a little punishment they'll just continue as they think that's 'ok'? Here's an example: Mr Joe enters a jewerly-store, pulls out his shotgun and orders them to put all the gold and diamonds into his bag. The next day he gets caught by the police and is facing court in the next month. In court he gets sentenced to this: "We're taking 30% of what you stole, you might keep the rest". You think that will stop him from stealing?

DO YOU GET MY F**ING POINT?
Poor analogy, but PA Team are clearly in the wrong.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:47   #34
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Re: Taking bets

basically you tell everyone here how to cheat now? funny.....

and with people who played for atleast 3/4 rounds they KNOW the rules, 1upers, wpers and dragons. i say just close. making up silly things like it didn't gain them much isn't really true. all that needed to be done was recall a fleet once and it could have saved you 100% fleet
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:49   #35
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Kal,

If you ask for an exception, you arent allowed to defend the planet concerned etc.

So why should it be different if people dont ahve an exception but use one as an excuse?
Forest read the manual. The FAQ section clearly states that planets with exceptions CAN help each other but that it has to be limited else even an exception wont save you
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:52   #36
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Re: Taking bets

mickemus's brother wasn't even allowed to scan for him, while they reported it. how come these guys can do this, yet mick's brother wasn't even allowed to planetscan a guy that mick attacked?

double standards?
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:54   #37
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Re: Taking bets

Is that the same cypher that cried like a lil sissy baby when his account got closed in Spaceminers and demanded it to be reopened asap?

Face it cypher. You judging someone for cheating is like George Bush telling everyone to be nice to each other and that war is no solution.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:56   #38
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Re: Taking bets

i have not mentioned at all what happened in the cas eof the closures last night and this monring, only simple examples of reasons why a lesser punnishment may be given out, in fact I have not looked at the cases involved at all - I don't even know if it was 1up/wp/exilition people who were reopened and given alternative punnishments.

Everyday lots of people get closed and some reopened because we beleive that closure was not the correct decision. People here only notice if it involves top alliances becuase thats all that matters in their small worlds.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 15:59   #39
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
for example u ar eonly warned that u need an excpetion if u sign up with the same ip as someone - if you then moved to live with someone then u would need an excpetion but it might not occur to u if u r using the same internt conenction but different PCs.

That is simply not true Kal, the EULA clearly states that if you have more than one person playing PA from the same IP, not signing up but playing, that you need to mail for an exception. It is a players responsibility to read and understand the rules before playing a game. Failure to do so is not a valid excuse, and "Oh sorry I didn't know." simply doesn't play out either.

I have often times had to mail Phil^ asking for an exception, hell I played an entire round of PA with my brother from the same house/same computer. We were in separate alliances, and yes it hurt never being able to defend my brother, but I dont want anything I do to be in any way construed as cheating, so I am very careful about that. Even after being given the OK for my exception, I still dont take that as a green light to go do all the cheating I ever wanted.

All that being said, what I have posted, and everyone else is probably an overreaction, at least I hope so. I trust that PATeam has the good judgement to make sure that people are not profiting from their actions and that the appropriate punishment is handed out. I would like to point out however, that just a penalty in roids is not sufficient...you need to take away XP as well otherwise they still benefit from their 'illegal' actions.

Also, the best way to prevent cheating is not to close a lot of planets early and then to open them up with a slight slap on the wrist. The best way to prevent cheating is to have a zero tolerance policy. If people are caught cheating close them, delete them, tell them if they want to keep playing they can make a new account. Hell at the very least you could restart their account from scratch. There is a reason why judiciary systems have the death penalty, and why companies like Valve will ban you no questions asked and no appeals if you are caught doing something you are not supposed. That reason is the more severe the punishment the better a deterent it is to future offenses.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:01   #40
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Forest read the manual. The FAQ section clearly states that planets with exceptions CAN help each other but that it has to be limited else even an exception wont save you
When I have asked for exceptions, and asked if I could still defend my brother I was told flat out no...

And its not like my top100 planet defending an allianceless bottom 500 planet would have benefitted me in any way shape or form either...it was just the fact that it is something your not supposed to do.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:01   #41
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Re: Taking bets

if they were deinftly cheating they would still be closed... just becuase the communtiy thinks all of exilition are cheaters does not mean they are.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:05   #42
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
if they were deinftly cheating they would still be closed... just becuase the communtiy thinks all of exilition are cheaters does not mean they are.
So if they weren't cheating, why punish them?

They either were or were not cheating. You can not punish someone without proof. If you had the proof, they should have been deleted.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:07   #43
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
When I have asked for exceptions, and asked if I could still defend my brother I was told flat out no...

And its not like my top100 planet defending an allianceless bottom 500 planet would have benefitted me in any way shape or form either...it was just the fact that it is something your not supposed to do.
its more that we arn;t completely evil - we are not going to close people for accidentally sending defence once - but if we tell people u can defend every so often then they will probably end up defendiing to much - its hard to define how little defence is acceptable and how much is not.

once we have a full in game exception handling system it will be designed so a limited amount of interaction is permitted but beyond that it will not be physically possible for the accounts to interact.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:07   #44
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Re: Taking bets

PA cant afford to ban potentila R14 customers now can they?

Yes, i am being cynical.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:08   #45
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Re: Taking bets

No one's saying anyone is cheats.

Simply that if you get caught, you get deleted.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:08   #46
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
once we have a full in game exception handling system it will be designed so a limited amount of interaction is permitted but beyond that it will not be physically possible for the accounts to interact.
Havent we been hearing similar style spin since about Round 4? 3 years down the line and we still have the same issues.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:10   #47
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
So if they weren't cheating, why punish them?

They either were or were not cheating. You can not punish someone without proof. If you had the proof, they should have been deleted.
as i said i don;t know the details of the cases but one would assume they were guilt of a lesser crime e.g. giving false detials when signing up, or forgetting a register for an exception. people should not be entirly excluded from the game for simple mistakes.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:12   #48
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
Havent we been hearing similar style spin since about Round 4? 3 years down the line and we still have the same issues.
before round 10 there were virtually no in game multihunting tools of note, now we have a vairety of automatic detectors, detailed logging of account actions and a highyl effective data processing tool to analyse interactions between any number of accounts.
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:15   #49
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Re: Taking bets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
PA cant afford to ban potentila R14 customers now can they?
That's exactly what I'm thinking too
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Unread 12 Apr 2005, 16:15   #50
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Re: Taking bets

Yet another reason I never want to play PA again, if you cheat you should be deleted.
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