Is there any chance

[Dace]

of getting Berti the **** out of the Scotland "team"

[pablissimo]

Way to lose to the communists.

[Kurashima]

Im with you brother. Get the van , ill get the masking tape , the hammers , and a map of areas of wasteland in the West Lothian region where the body will never be found.

[1-X]

you have unrealistic expectations

you can't blame Berti for the fact that the current generation of scottish footballers are poor

[Kurashima]

Originally Posted by 1-X

you have unrealistic expectations

you can't blame Berti for the fact that the current generation of scottish footballers are poor

I think the point is THEYRE NOT

The current generation is actually not that bad, but Berti has no tactics whatsoever to make the most of what hes got, and he couldnt build a defence if you gave him enough bricks and mortar to cover the entire goals.

[Kurashima]

Oh god , first bad pun from an Englishman

"Message to Berti - They Think Its Moldova .... It Is Now!"

[1-X]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

I think the point is THEYRE NOT

The current generation is actually not that bad, but Berti has no tactics whatsoever to make the most of what hes got, and he couldnt build a defence if you gave him enough bricks and mortar to cover the entire goals.

there you go again, bringing facts into this...

surely there are 11 english players with scottish grannies you can adopt?

[JC]

Amoruso wants to be Scottish.

lolly roffle

[Nondescript Human]

This lazy Englishman says it's down to the shit players.

[Marilyn Manson]

What kind of excessively blatant homosexual has the tag 'Berti'?

[Sunday8pm]

National teams should have the strict nation's own players rule applied to the playing staff as well.

I hate to say it but Craig Brown was better than this.

[KoeN]

hahahaha poor scots being coached by a german.

supergeilklasse!

[Marilyn Manson]

He's German? I thought he was Dutch.

[Dace]

he's shit and that transpires nationalities*













*or sometihng

[lokken]

You can take Sven if you want.

[JonnyBGood]

Scotland are a woefully poor side with diabolical players and an appallingly shoddy manager. Don't think it's just down to one thing guys

[lokken]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Scotland are a woefully poor side with diabolical players and an appallingly shoddy manager. Don't think it's just down to one thing guys

Richard Hughes looks like Robert Pires from some angles

True story

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Scotland are a woefully poor side with diabolical players and an appallingly shoddy manager. Don't think it's just down to one thing guys

Scotland performed astonishingly much better than this with a side of less ability during the Craig Brown years.

Can you imagine Don Hutchinson a successful international striker who would defeat england?

p.s. Combined with the fact that Scottish Clubs are performing better in Europe than they ever have in the years berti's been in charge than before, Scottish Clubs who rely on certain Scottish Talents in the first 11, something that Craig Brown didn't have during his reign, yet the results are still poorer.

[Ste]

Scotland were shit before vogts came along.
They're still shit now.
Maybe a new manager might make a difference? Who knows.
I reckon you'd still be shit.
Just like Wales and Northern Ireland.
A few good games don't disguise a shit team.
England are the best team in these Isles, always have been*, always will be. Deal with it.







*Ignoring the Graham Taylor years. But that was down to the manager.

[Mek]

at the end of the day, berti can only tell them what to do,the players are the ones who've got to do it

[Blastoderm]

I personally liked the Craig Brown years.

[Blastoderm]

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SPORT/fo...cotland.vogts/

I don't quite get this. Why wouldn't he step down? No Scot loves him anymore.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Sunday8pm

Scotland performed astonishingly much better than this with a side of less ability during the Craig Brown years.

Can you imagine Don Hutchinson a successful international striker who would defeat england?

p.s. Combined with the fact that Scottish Clubs are performing better in Europe than they ever have in the years berti's been in charge than before, Scottish Clubs who rely on certain Scottish Talents in the first 11, something that Craig Brown didn't have during his reign, yet the results are still poorer.

Hold on, which one of celtic's players is scottish again? Frankly looking at the results it's not exactly like scotland were world-beaters under craig brown. I'm hardly saying berti vogts is an amazing manager, in fact he's shit, but as you say a lot of mediocre international sides have improved recently. Scotland are one of the teams which have not and the fact you are a bad team with a bad manager shines through. Arsene Wenger would struggle to get this scottish side to even challenge for qualification.

Originally Posted by Ste

England are the best team in these Isles, always have been*, always will be. Deal with it.

This is laughable at best.

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by Ste

Scotland were shit before vogts came along.
They're still shit now.
Maybe a new manager might make a difference? Who knows.
I reckon you'd still be shit.
Just like Wales and Northern Ireland.
A few good games don't disguise a shit team.
England are the best team in these Isles, always have been*, always will be. Deal with it.







*Ignoring the Graham Taylor years. But that was down to the manager.

Petition to have user only able to see his own posts and have him added to everyone's ignore lists in stealth mode.

Seriously get over yourself, what we are complaining about is the fact that the product we have now is worse than the product we had before berti, and this is in light of a resurging Scottish game where we have come out stronger in europe than we had down in Brown's Era and have developed a lot of Scottish players with European experience or play with top sides.

The Scottish side is however suffering from what would be considered an inexperienced defence but the fact is we have a rather experienced midfield/attack.

Let's Look at the Squad

Craig Gordon, Plays every week for Hearts and has a lot of European experience under his belt would certainly be challenging for #2/#3 Keeper spot in England

David Marshall, Same Boat as Craig Gordon and keeps keepers like Magnus Hedmen(swedish international and plied his trade with Coventry City in the Premiership) and Robert Douglas (our old preferred National Keeper choice over the likes of Premiership Veteran Neil Sullivan) out of the first team slot, Would definately be up there as #2/#3 keeper for England.

England have Paul Robinson, Don't even start on your other keepers as possibly being better than the two listed above.... (kirkland is unproven and a sicknote, Wright is a dum dum, James is a calamity... Green is unproven and injured and furthermore imo not possibly better than Hoult on his in-form season)

Defenders

Alan Hutton, Injured but a wonderful talent that has been looked at by English sides

Jon Kennedy, Murdered by a daft Romanian but looks like a crucially needed centre back

Gary and Steven Caldwell, Both came through the training ranks at Newcastle United and have been plying their trade recently in the SPL and the Championship, no European Experience however.

Russel Anderson, Very experienced Defender now but nothing special admittedly, we are short of candidates here for sure especially with the fact that we are trying to bring through youth over using older players.

Christian Dailly, Premiership Veteran and International Veteran, Alas Injured.

Jackie McNamara, Exceptional over the last two seasons with vast European experience, Alas Injured.

Zander Diamond, a certainty to replace a caldwell in due time, being blooded through the u-21's I believe for experience first, being watched by a lot of English Premiership sides and also the Old Firm.

Andy Webster, Vast European experience and plays every week in the SPL, relatively inexperienced on the international front however.

Gary Naysmith, Regular Premiership player though lacking on the european experience which shows at international level imo, Everton are not looking to replace him anytime soon and to be honest I can't see them finding many left backs better that aren't already with bigger sides.

As you can see looking at the defence we have 2 Veteran first name down on the paper first teamers out, given we pull from a pool of a population of 3 million people of all ages and gender comparitively to the 50 million + england enjoy, when we lose two it costs us a lot, when england lose 2 you have at least one level of depth in replacement, four and you'd struggle though and proportionally that reflects poorer on England.

Midfield

Chris Burke, Watched by Newcastle amongst other sides, being developed through the u-21's I believe but has masses of potential and has european experience already.

Barry Ferguson, Spent a long time out injured but a definate starter for Blackburn in the premiership when he's fit, lots of experience and talent.

Darren Fletcher, Developed at Manchester United and has broken into the first team on occassion... what more can be said, also had an outstanding international game recently for Scotland.

NIgel Quashie, Plays in the premiership if I'm not mistaken with portsmouth right?

Gary Holt, First name on the sheet surely for Norwich, Getting Premiership experience under his belt now after extensive SPL and Championship experience plus the odd european match experience during his time with Kilmarnock.

Colin Cameron, Experienced Veteran who might be getting on a bit now, played premiership, SPL, Championship and European enough to be very experienced.

Ian Murray, played out of position a lot but has a lot of potential and has played a lot of games for a player his age.

S. Pearson (can't mind his first name), vying for a place in a midfield that's packed with internationals at Celtic, Neil Lennon, Stilian Petrov, Alan Thompson(Should be a full-time international), Paul Lambert (retired now), Juninho, all players that have played or do play for their respective national sides and yet he's rated up there with regards to potential to them.

Stephen Hughes, Someone to replace Colin Cameron's role with more pace and more attacking threat if he can enjoy an injury free run for a while.

I've prolly missed a few here, but we once again are plagued with injuries to an already small pool, a pool that is more than 10 times smaller than englands (yes we also do have other sports that compete with football up north too so you can't use that excuse either) yet we get belittled for not drawing up anywhere near your level? I think the fact that we've already defeated England recently nevermind qualify on a frequency comparable to england for national tournaments tell's us otherwise.

Strikers

Steven Crawford, experienced in SPL and European football and finally getting a crack though rather late on at international football.

Paul Dickov, Premiership Veteran.

Kenny Miller, signed by wolves during their premiership stay, could possibly do better.

Kevin Kyle, Regular for Sunderland but still very young.

James McFadden, Fought over by a number of clubs before settling on Everton, Bound to get a lot more premiership experience with Ferguson and Campbell leaving Everton after this season.



Now I don't know about you but the jist of the Scotland squad seem to be plying their trade in the Premiership/Championship/SPL....

I think you are criticising your own game that you admire so much when you criticise Scotland to be honest, Scotland do have a right to expect more from a squad that's supposedly playing at the same level as the England National squad with regards to their club careers and at least reflect that in their results.

We most certainly should not be struggling against nations that cannot boast the facilities or the exports of their national players and we should certainly be playing on a par with nations that boast equivalent European success on a club level, however we are not, yet we did for some time, and this is no longer satisfactory.

So to any self-righteous English fan who feels the need to glorify in the tribulations of nations who have exceeded your achievements on a proportional scale, I say this;

**** right off back up your own ass and never post again.

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Hold on, which one of celtic's players is scottish again? Frankly looking at the results it's not exactly like scotland were world-beaters under craig brown. I'm hardly saying berti vogts is an amazing manager, in fact he's shit, but as you say a lot of mediocre international sides have improved recently. Scotland are one of the teams which have not and the fact you are a bad team with a bad manager shines through. Arsene Wenger would struggle to get this scottish side to even challenge for qualification.


This is laughable at best.

David Marshall, Robert Douglas, Paul Lambert(retired from international duty now), Jon Kennedy, Jackie McNamara, Shaun Maloney, Craig Beattie (getting blooded through the u21's but has masses of potential)

Great one upmanship there jonny, really hit me with the book there and shut me up... (lest I point out that three of those celtic players have put in performances that have had very positive reviews written about them by any respectable sports journalist for many a broadsheet)

p.s. I agree with your last sentence, it seems that Ste doesn't recognise the Republic of Ireland.

p.p.s. For all their money, their wonderful standard of their league, Youth Academies, their warmer climate, their pool of possible talent available to them England have been woefully poor with regards to other countries resources.

[Ste]

When have Ireland been better than England?
Apart from 1994 which I excepted.

EDIT And your scottish team...
you haven't convinced me that there is talent there.
Maybe a handful of players that may get picked in an England squad if there was an injury crisis?
An odd european game with Kilmarnock and Hearts hardly screams international quality does it.
Your 'experienced' premiership players (Dailly, Quashie, Naysmith, Dickov) are average premier league players at best.
And your potentially good players aren't good now.
Experience != Quality.
So how will a new manager actually improve the Scottish team now?



PS I only added the england bit in that last post to wind you up.
it worked. true of course.

[Sunday8pm]

We worked with less back when Scotland were pulling out results like...

Scotland 1 England 0

I still believe that from the squad pool I have listed however and their performances they've contributed at club level, that Vogts hasn't even got 50% out of them in his time in charge performance wise.

I'm also thinking about '02 when it comes to Ireland, they sent Roy Keane home and still went on and performed.

The final say is this however, When england's team is worth x amount and their players are paid x amount and they play a national side where the players are on a small fraction of what they are yet don't get a result you get insanely irritated correct?

It's the same for Scotland... we are in the same boat at the moment, we are not performing against sides whose talents are not equal to ours in financial worth apparrently and no not every side is the next Senegal that does that to us as well.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by Sunday8pm

We worked with less back when Scotland were pulling out results like...

Scotland 1 England 0

We had a bad day... We played very badly that day rather than Scotland playing particularly well.
anyway - one-off results don't show much. A year ago Wales beat Italy did they not?

I still believe that from the squad pool I have listed however and their performances they've contributed at club level, that Vogts hasn't even got 50% out of them in his time in charge performance wise.

Ok, possibly. But at the same time other small countries are getting better. Players and coaching staff alike.

I'm also thinking about '02 when it comes to Ireland, they sent Roy Keane home and still went on and performed.

Drawing with Cameroon and Germany and beating Saudi Arabia in the first round before going out to Spain on penalties.
How does that make Ireland a better team than England (beat Argentina, drew with Sweden and Nigeria, then beat Denmark before losing to Brazil)?

The final say is this however, When england's team is worth x amount and their players are paid x amount and they play a national side where the players are on a small fraction of what they are yet don't get a result you get insanely irritated correct?

It's the same for Scotland... we are in the same boat at the moment, we are not performing against sides whose talents are not equal to ours in financial worth apparrently and no not every side is the next Senegal that does that to us as well.

True. But I still doubt a new manager would make much difference.

[Sunday8pm]

Personally I'll reply on a couple things here.

When Wales beat Italy it made Hughes career and also gave players like Hartson a lot more media attention even though he was never a regular at Celtic, let's face it before that campaign welsh results internationally were never more than a footnote.

What Ireland achieve given the size of their nation and the quality of their nation's domestic league is like playing with a large handicap comparitively, you seem to think that all teams are equal from the start and you are just better cause, I'd say that all teams start off invaribly better or worse off, Ireland were worse off and achieve lots, England are prolly one of the top 4 better off countries yet the last time they got anywhere near that was 1990.

I'd like to see you argue that Gordon Strachan wouldn't be a big Difference than Berti Vogts, if you remember how southampton USED to be under Strachan and think of it comparitively to what he was up against, Scotland isn't that far from being an International version of it, likewise he'd give a better interview, he'd relate to the scottish crowd better and if he could relate to the supporters better surely that must mean he'd relate to the players better...

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Sunday8pm

David Marshall, Robert Douglas, Paul Lambert(retired from international duty now), Jon Kennedy, Jackie McNamara, Shaun Maloney, Craig Beattie (getting blooded through the u21's but has masses of potential)

Lambert I'd forgotten about for some reason. None of the rest of those players are first team or have that much European experience bar the goalies and McNamara. Douglas is, let's face it, crap. Marshall has only a few games under his belt and McNamara is one of the main reasons Celtic don't do well in Europe.

Let's not forget your point was that

Combined with the fact that Scottish Clubs are performing better in Europe than they ever have in the years berti's been in charge than before, Scottish Clubs who rely on certain Scottish Talents in the first 11

With the exception of Lambert none of those players were that important.

Great one upmanship there jonny, really hit me with the book there and shut me up... (lest I point out that three of those celtic players have put in performances that have had very positive reviews written about them by any respectable sports journalist for many a broadsheet)

I'm not saying I doubt their ability to become good players but to claim that they a) have a wealth of European experience or b) are heavily relied upon by their respective clubs is a bit much.

As regards England I'd say we were the better side from about 1992-2002. You can't say that England always were, are and will be the best side in the British Isles (bar this inconvenient decade nobody really remembers that well).

To actually criticise the England team in-depth I think we should note the fact you played four right footed midfielders in midfield and somehow expected that team to have balance. That owen has been over-rated for a long time, that heskey has more caps than is morally justifiable, that james is a joke, scholes was never utilised properly, beckham hasn't performed in any international championship, gary neville could easily be a first division player and nobody would notice.....

You've got 3 good defenders though!


Good at getting doped up and injured lololol


PS In the great measure of crap english football excuses you have to measure the quality of the performance and not the result. Unless you're german, in which case you win anyways and nobody even bothers watching the football.

[Ste]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

As regards England I'd say we were the better side from about 1992-2002. You can't say that England always were, are and will be the best side in the British Isles (bar this inconvenient decade nobody really remembers that well).

Ireland
World Cup record
1930 - Did not enter
1934 to 1986 - Did not qualify
1990 - Quarter-finals
1994 - Round 2
1998 - Did not qualify
2002 - Round 2

European Championships record
1960 to 1984 - Did not qualify
1988 - Round 1
1992 to 2004 - Did not qualify

Compared to:
England
World cup record:
3rd-4th Final
1930 to 1938, Did not enter　 　 　
1950, 1st round
1954, Quarter-finals 　 　
1958, Round 1　 　 　
1962, Quarter-finals 　 　
1966, Winners
1970, Quarter-finals 　 　
1974 to 1978, Did not qualify 　 　
1982, round 2　 　
1986, Quarter-finals 　 　
1990, 4th place 　
1994, Did not qualify 　 　 　
1998, round 2　 　 　
2002, Quarter-finals 　 　

European Championships record
1960 - Did not enter
1964 - Did not qualify
1968 - Third place
1972 to 1976 - Did not qualify
1980 - Round 1
1984 - Did not qualify
1988 to 1992 - Round 1
1996 - Semifinals
2000 - Round 1
2004 - Quarterfinals

I think we can safely say England have (apart from 1994) always been better.

To actually criticise the England team in-depth I think we should note the fact you played four right footed midfielders in midfield and somehow expected that team to have balance. That owen has been over-rated for a long time, that heskey has more caps than is morally justifiable, that james is a joke, scholes was never utilised properly, beckham hasn't performed in any international championship, gary neville could easily be a first division player and nobody would notice.....

GK is good enough (i'm not talking about James here).
Defense - centrally outsstanding and the full-backs are very good. Including Neville - although he does nothing special he is very solid and rarely makes mistakes. I've always disliked him but recently I've started to realise his qualities.
Midfield is one of the best in the world (although we do still need that damn left midfielder)
Up-front is where all the recent problems have arisen. Owen has been off-form for a long time, Heskey I never rated. Now Rooney has appeared and Defoe and Smith are both playing better, we're looking strong again.

EDIT - quality of performance? did you see any of the matches under Jack Charlton? 1 striker, Hit it to him. That is all.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

McNamara is one of the main reasons Celtic don't do well in Europe.

Good joke.

[JC]

Originally Posted by Ste

Midfield is one of the best in the world (although we do still need that damn left midfielder)

On paper we might do but we never play like we have the best midfield around. We have no kind of shape to it because we have some guy stuck out on the left who keeps pulling into the centre. Beckham constantly goes into the middle in search of the ball leaving us with no width on the right either. This means we end up playing long balls to Owen/Defoe from the centre of the park. When we are lucky our midfield dont get the ball, Rooney picks it up and does something decent with it.

[JonnyBGood]

It's not whether or not it's great football. It's whether or not the team deserved to win. Aight?

Why would you bother listing 1930-1990? That has nothing to do with anything.

You have good individual midfielders which is a different thing to having one of the best midfields in the world. England, until scholes retirement, played with four right-footed midfielders who preferred going forward through the centre of the pitch.

[Ste]

Look, I cut and pasted. I was making a point.

And our midfield can play, and has played, better than most in the world.

[JonnyBGood]

But they don't do it consistently. Great midfields go out and dominate the play no matter what the opposition.

[KoeN]

in the UK, people invented football. but they aren't too good at it.

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by Dace

Good joke.

Yah, as much as I hate to be reinforcing the abilities of the dark side, jonny's astounding lack of knowledge on anything apparrently outside of England's National team is deploreable.

I never thought he'd try and take up the gauntlet in an area he was severely uninformed/inexperienced in.

I guess he likes the old break a few eggs till I actually spout out something right though.

[JonnyBGood]

I must have been pretty far off. I've only been watching celtic games for about eight or nine months now (a friend of mine who I only really got to know about then is a really keen celtic fan). On this year's evidence McNamara has been very poor. If he was not in earlier years I humbly withdraw my comments.


PS Shut up sunday

[Blastoderm]

Anyways Berti's off.

[Dace]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I must have been pretty far off. I've only been watching celtic games for about eight or nine months now (a friend of mine who I only really got to know about then is a really keen celtic fan). On this year's evidence McNamara has been very poor. If he was not in earlier years I humbly withdraw my comments.

You seriously have no ****ing clue.

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by Dace

You seriously have no ****ing clue.

Agreed.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dace

You seriously have no ****ing clue.

OH LOOK AT ME I CAN POST TOO

[Dace]

with opinions as stupid as you have you shouldn't be allowed to tho

[Timeline]

Originally Posted by Ste

A few good games don't disguise a sh*t team.
England are the best team in these Isles, always have been, always will be. Deal with it.

Can you spot the irony in this? A couple of months ago the england team were lambasted by the press for their mediocrity on the pitch and now after two close wins over average international teams at best. Now England are apparently the best in the isles. As an England supporter i say bring back the british isles competition when the home nations really found out who was the best.

ps Correct me if i'm wrong but the last time all the nations played each other one of the irish teams came out winning it.

[Ste]

You let the press tell you whether we have a decent team or not rather than watching it for yourself and taking into consideration more than a couple of results?
And there is no apparently about it. England are the best team in the isles. They were before.
Are you arguing that a couple of months ago Ireland were better? Wales? Scotland?
There's no irony in what I said at all.

There are also a lot of reasons why the football version of the 5 nations (with NI instead of France ofc) isn't feasible.
The attendance was pretty poor, the amount of trouble that used to happen in the England V Scotland yearly games was terrible and there isn't any space in the football calender for 4 more internationals.

[Timeline]

Originally Posted by Ste

there isn't any space in the football calender for 4 more internationals.

Why not get rid of some of the stupid friendlies we must endure? I'm not saying the competition would work now as it did before but if, for example, it was staged over a two year period instead of the 1 year it could become feasible without adding to the fixture congestion.
also i don't let the press tell me how they did in the games... i watched them and to be honest for the last 2 years England have been terrible when playing. Everything was 'Beckham this' or 'Owen that' and 'Scholes will surely play well this time'. Admittedly since Rooney has come in along with Lampard as a regular the team have looked more balanced but they are still a team of individuals not a group unit.

[Ste]

Look, are you arguing that there are a better team in the British Isles than England? Or have been ever? If so I want to know who!

I never said that England were/are a great team. We've got many footballing problems.

Did you read what I said before arguing against something completely different?

[Sunday8pm]

Originally Posted by Ste

Look, are you arguing that there are a better team in the British Isles than England? Or have been ever? If so I want to know who!

I never said that England were/are a great team. We've got many footballing problems.

Did you read what I said before arguing against something completely different?

Best team bang for buck is Ireland end of story.

People are much more impressed with a team performing above their level than one performing below it.

England are performing very far below their possible level, Ireland are performing very far above it.

Comparing yourself to smaller nations abilities is only relative if you take into perspective the expectable level achieved, Ireland have always exceeded expectations, England have always came up ridiculously short.

It's like comparing say Bolton and Manchester United, if you ask who the better team is in the last two years, you'll say bolton, cause they have been meeting and exceeding their goals, Man Utd haven't, but you are arguing that Man Utd are the better team merely cause they finish above bolton.

I suggest you take that above paragraph and re-read it 15 times before you pass another comment again.

[Ste]

bollocks.

If I get a C in my maths GCSE when I was expected to fail, am I better at maths than someone who got an A but was expecting an A*?
No. You're talking crap Sunday.
I guess you reckon Ireland are also better than France, Italy and Germany as well? Because they've hardly been performing in the last few years.