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Unread 27 May 2006, 12:50   #1
Audacious
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Complete Overhaul of Pa

Ok this is my 1st post on the forum, and I bet it gets shot down by everyone here. But in my mind it would be a good way forward. Its simple really. For what 7 or 8 rounds this game has been alliance based. The same old people up the top, the same old people trying to get up there. But does it change? No

We get new players in (sometimes) and what happens to them? If they are good, they get picked up by the top 5 alliances and they stay strong. If they are bad, then they get bashed and they leave. Whats the main problem with Pa at the moment? People leaving, everyone says we want more players, we want more targets, we want more roids before it stagnates.

Ok my idea is very simple, get rid of alliances. Yup i am a HC of one, yeah its good fun to organise attacks/defence etc but this can be done at a galaxy level. My suggestion is this, remove alliances from the game, completely full stop, they do no exist anymore. No alliance def bonus, no ally fund, no HC, no BC, no DC. no alliances.

I hear you saying but but but the alliances are the heart and soul of the game, yes they WERE, look at the diminishing player base, ask yourself why that is, its because new people cannot get involved.

You saying but the biggest gals will just become strongholds, and they will run away with it. Fine, put restrictions on how many players they can have, Everyone started with 10 planets (I think) in each galaxy. Lets work with that, lets say the top 25 planets cannot get any bigger than that, if you drop out of the top 25 then an exiler "might" be able to land in the top galaxy.

So let everyone have their private galaxies, 10 men/women to it. People will say but 1up/Insomnia/Angels will still have the biggest galaxies. Urgh see my point above, Alliances don't exist. that doesnt matter, its all about the galaxy. If you were in the #2 Galaxy and 10 of your old "Alliance" mates were in #1 would you say nah we will leave them alone. would you b*llocks, you would be saying lets hit them and get to the top. Instead of playing with your friends, you would be playing against them as well. Look at football on the schoolfields, which is more enjoyable, nutmegging someone you dont know, or your mate who you can take the mickey out of for the rest of the week.

Any argument you can come up with, just remember, there is no Alliance, and see how much more fun this game could be
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Unread 27 May 2006, 12:55   #2
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

wont work as alliances existed before they were coded into the game , remove the ingame feature and alliances go back to existing outside the game as before
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:01   #3
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

what purpose would they have though?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:03   #4
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by Audacious
what purpose would they have though?
the same purpose they had since rd 1 when ppl grouped together for support in this game
if you want to remove alliances then also remove attacking and defending and re-name the game tiddlywinks
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:03   #5
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by Audacious
So let everyone have their private galaxies, 10 men/women to it.
Could we also have a 50/50 spread of men/women in galaxies? No sex discrimination?

From joke to...err..

Like gzambo said it won't work.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:06   #6
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

I disagree gzambo, I happen to think their purpose would change and they'd become a damn sight more interesting for all involved.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:07   #7
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Why Nadar? Explain

Edit: I'm not saying the galaxy concept doesn't need extra thought
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:09   #8
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Why Nadar? Explain
Why what? The sex discrimination joke or that I agree with gzambo?

Removing allianes and everyone playing individually would be fun indeed, but it'd be impossible to stop alliances forming outside the game to defend eachother unless you completely remove defense (which could be fun to try for a round to see how it goes).
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:11   #9
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Do you not think the character and behaviour of alliances would then change?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:12   #10
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Alliances would still exist out of the game to ensure their galaxies remain in the top 10. They'd consider it a victory that their alliance managed to get the most high scoring galaxies. All they'd do is tag their galaxies at the end of the game to show this.

I'd like to see ideas to bring back the galaxy a bit more, but getting rid of alliances just won't work or won't even help it.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:12   #11
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

why would you send defence? you are in the #2 galaxy and want to get to #1, why would you send defence to #1 galaxy? to help them? i think not
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:13   #12
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Do you not think the character and behaviour of alliances would then change?
If people were still allowed to defend eachother outside galaxy I don't think the behaviour would change no.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:15   #13
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by Anonymous Hero
Alliances would still exist out of the game to ensure their galaxies remain in the top 10. They'd consider it a victory that their alliance managed to get the most high scoring galaxies. All they'd do is tag their galaxies at the end of the game to show this.

I'd like to see ideas to bring back the galaxy a bit more, but getting rid of alliances just won't work or won't even help it.
Alliances wouldnt exist, pa would not recognise them, they would not get a "speech" in the end of round ceremony, they would not get free credits, there would be no statistics to say who "won"
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:16   #14
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

The whole point is that alliances currently care about nothing but the score race. This is less interesting than it has to be, even for the 'winners.' The cluster (not galaxy) thread has the same fundamentals behind it
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:17   #15
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious
Alliances wouldnt exist, pa would not recognise them, they would not get a "speech" in the end of round ceremony, they would not get free credits, there would be no statistics to say who "won"
It'd be a bit naive to think that'd stop alliances from forming. If not for a alliance win, at least they'd help to push up their galaxies and players.

Besides, what alliances (especially the old ones) would want to give up on their community, the community they created around a game they play together?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:19   #16
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
It'd be a bit naive to think that'd stop alliances from forming. If not for a alliance win, at least they'd help to push up their galaxies and players.

Besides, what alliances (especially the old ones) would want to give up on their community, the community they created around a game they play together?
They would stille exist, look at the post about nutmegging, is it not more fun to land on your mate and take the mickey out of them?

and the community alliances created is one that is dwindling
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:20   #17
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious
Alliances wouldnt exist, pa would not recognise them, they would not get a "speech" in the end of round ceremony, they would not get free credits, there would be no statistics to say who "won"
The winning player/galaxy would say "thanks to my alliance, (alliance name), for helping". Even if alliances don't get a -1 ETA bonus, those galaxies in an alliance would find it in their interest to defend to make it damn difficult for attackers.

Did you play the first few rounds of Planetarion? Alliances existed back then, even though all the prizes were given to planets/galaxies.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:21   #18
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
If not for a alliance win, at least they'd help to push up their galaxies and players.

Besides, what alliances (especially the old ones) would want to give up on their community, the community they created around a game they play together?
Exactly! Instead of pursueing nothing but rank, alliances would be going out of their way to help their members,

It'd strengthen the communities not weaken them.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:21   #19
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

yup i did, then left while alliances were brought to the fore, again why would you want to help someone in a galaxy bigger than you when you can land on them?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:24   #20
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audacious
They would stille exist, look at the post about nutmegging, is it not more fun to land on your mate and take the mickey out of them?

and the community alliances created is one that is dwindling
I still have my doubts you'll ever be able to change their way of thinking about the game.

What about the politics then? That's one factor which made the game so fun.

It's not that your idea is very bad or anything. I'd love to try it out like that for one round, but I severly doubt the rest will think the same.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:26   #21
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
I still have my doubts you'll ever be able to change their way of thinking about the game.

What about the politics then? That's one factor which made the game so fun.

It's not that your idea is very bad or anything. I'd love to try it out like that for one round, but I severly doubt the rest will think the same.
Agreed it would take a lot of change of people thinking towards pa, but it would make it interesting again, the possibilities are all new, not the same old same old , even old players who know the game, would have to learn whole new techniques, which is what i beleive everyone is trying to get with xp/pds/bp's/ally limits
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:27   #22
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Exactly! Instead of pursueing nothing but rank, alliances would be going out of their way to help their members,

It'd strengthen the communities not weaken them.
You see where you're going now? The alliance rank is removed, but it'd still be the strongest alliance that get their planets on top, and then that alliance will be credited for it and be seen on as victorious. It'd be back to pre-r10 without alliance ranks.

Edit: Made it readable.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:32   #23
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Politics this round sum up everything that's bad with the current system. I'd expect politics to involve far more players and to concern the wider game, not just the alliance rankings table. And so, more complicated and less easily defined.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:35   #24
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
You see where you're going now? The alliance rank is removed, but it'd still be the strongest alliance that get their planets on top, and then that alliance will be credited for it and be seen on as victorious. It'd be back to pre-r10 without alliance ranks.

Edit: Made it readable.
I have no idea who the strongest alliance has been this round, most of them didn't do anything because they ended up overly concerned with their rank (for most of them) at the expense of their players.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:39   #25
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwtmc
Politics this round sum up everything that's bad with the current system. I'd expect politics to involve far more players and to concern the wider game, not just the alliance rankings table. And so, more complicated and less easily defined.
The only way that would happen would be for some good players to not bother joining an ally at all, or to have many more, smaller allies... i mean, if you're no in an ally (generally, obvious excepetions) you're not playing that seriously, so why would you care about supposed "politics" ?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:41   #26
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Do you think alliances like LCH disband (pretty much!) because the community's dead or because they don't feel they have the organisation to properly compete in the alliance rankings any more.

I think LCH would still be a great place to be if people weren't worrying about the tags so much.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:43   #27
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

I agree with your points, bwtmc, but I just don't see how you'll get everyone thinking like that. It's hard to change things people are used to in a drastic manner.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 13:50   #28
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by stubbsy
The only way that would happen would be for some good players to not bother joining an ally at all, or to have many more, smaller allies... i mean, if you're no in an ally (generally, obvious excepetions) you're not playing that seriously, so why would you care about supposed "politics" ?
Synthetic_Sid made a point in another thread (had a look but I couldn't find it) about how many people would like the game to be about trying to dominate the universe, kill and steal ships, for it to be a war game and not what it is now.** I'd hope politics could be more about trying to find your spot in the universe, expanding collective interests (expect some conflict), to be honest, politics would be whatever the players wanted it to be.

** Apologies if that's not a great representation, I haven't seen the post in a while.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 14:46   #29
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Maybe remove out of gal defense.

Then its a private gal war instead, yeah they kinda alliances and gals could nap or hit together.

But when you get inc your on your own.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 14:58   #30
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

See now i'd expect that to make the game less interesting! The game doesn't have to be confined to 'private gal wars.'
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Unread 27 May 2006, 15:07   #31
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

I wouldnt like to say how it would work, thats the great thing about it, its all new possibilities
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Unread 27 May 2006, 15:48   #32
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

I think that alot of players would leave if alliances were removed from the game.

If the game would get more players than they lost I seriously doubt.

Alliances have created communities and friends and alot of people enjoy playing together as an alliance. Limiting this to only ten players pr galaxy I think is the wrong way to go.

I'd actually prefer alliances to have more leverage than they have atm. But for now the system with alliances works okay.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 15:54   #33
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

i know what ya saying auda but while you can still defend and attack in this game you will NEVER stop allies forming in pa
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Unread 27 May 2006, 15:55   #34
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Let's say two alliances go to war today. There are exceptions sure, but I'm willing to bet that this round all they're looking for is to offset one another's scores and very little else. There's a limited sense of struggle or contest, it's quite simply a score race. That's boring to think about and it's hard not to frown when talking about it.

Now let's suppose Audacious has his way and the nature of alliances changes. Two have gone to war because they both want 'power' and in the struggle for 'power' they've found the other one in the way. In a war game you would hope that was the case, that power would be contested and fought for. Power can be whatever you want it to be. The aim of these alliances is no longer to amass score but to defend and develop their interests. In my opinion, that's far more interesting.

It should be left more for the players to decide what the game is about than pateam. A better system would surely let the players, flexible and changing as they are, bring about the evolution of the game within broader restrictions, than for pateam to continually try to re-direct it with rules and limitation. It doesn't feel like we're actually moving forward with the game round to round, it probably should.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 16:00   #35
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I'd actually prefer alliances to have more leverage than they have atm. But for now the system with alliances works okay.
The system's shit. Moreover, alliances would play a larger, more constructive part in the game than they do now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOL
i know what ya saying auda but while you can still defend and attack in this game you will NEVER stop allies forming in pa
But you can change the way in which they impact the game.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 16:17   #36
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by bwtmc
The system's shit. Moreover, alliances would play a larger, more constructive part in the game than they do now.



But you can change the way in which they impact the game.

yep i completly agree , take the allie rankings outta the game like it was few rds back would be more fun imo
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Unread 27 May 2006, 21:38   #37
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Having looked at the discussions on this matter to date, it appears that there are a number of players that prefer it as it is and a number of whom would be strongly for change.

I myself see alliances as the pedestall of PA, everything and anything is based around alliances. This in a sense takes the game away from the personal goals and more towards a ranking war as is stated.

Alliances are the making or breaking of new players, most of whom are inexperienced and need an alliance to get into the game and community and to stand any chance of success within the game. This fact alone could be seen as a factor in the decision of whether to continue or not continue with PA.

Take a look this round at gals such as 12:9 and 13:4. Players have come into the game and as you can see by their scores, have given up. Half of whom will have never got into the game because of the fact they cant get a strong alliance.

The change from alliance based to more galaxy based gives new, inexperienced players a stronger sense of community as its confined to the galaxy and means that you thrive to defend each other in order to gain a stronger base unit and as with all the speed games, its all galaxy based and rarely anything to do with allies.

You can say that alliances will still form, or battlegroups more tbh. This is to be expected, but without the ally -1 eta, it means that once full eta is researched, out of gal def is limited and then you become more reliant upon the gal to help.

I can see ways for this to succeed, but with every new idea there are pitfalls that will become apparent. Most of all a bit of change to the game wouldnt be so bad, would it?
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Unread 27 May 2006, 21:56   #38
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by r0x

I can see ways for this to succeed, but with every new idea there are pitfalls that will become apparent. Most of all a bit of change to the game wouldnt be so bad, would it?
I would say removing the alliances from the game is a huge change that will make alot of people leave the game for other games that are more based on the community of the alliance. I understand that alot of people like the idea of having more a more personal game, but for me, and I think alot of other players PA has been about alliances as long as they have been playing. The problems with integrating new players in the game has always been an issue but new players join the game nevertheless and some find their ways into the alliances that offer a home for PA players.

The amount of effort and the amount of work the players that has made and upheld theese alliances all throughout the rounds of PA shouldnt be ignored or just seen as unpratical approach to the individual gaming expirience, it should be upheld as an example of a game that lives on on its 6th year in a jungle of games where almost all of the games have alot shorter life expectation than that.

PA is a game about communities at a larger level than just the odd 10-12 players in a galaxy in my eyes, and while I respect the fact that some sees it differently I think that PA should to continue as an alliance based game.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 22:18   #39
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

You don't understand, Kargool. The alliances would mean as much as they did pre-r10 with his suggestion. THAT was a community, where the alliance stuck up to their members and not for the alliance rank itself. When they succeeded on the members, they also succeeded alliance wise.

Like I said, it's gonna be a hard job convincing people that this is a good idea and I very much doubt it'll go trough.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 22:41   #40
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by Nadar
You don't understand, Kargool. The alliances would mean as much as they did pre-r10 with his suggestion. THAT was a community, where the alliance stuck up to their members and not for the alliance rank itself. When they succeeded on the members, they also succeeded alliance wise.

Like I said, it's gonna be a hard job convincing people that this is a good idea and I very much doubt it'll go trough.
Im sorry Nadar but I disagree with you. Your expirience about alliances is based on your own expirience with alliances in PA, my expirience about alliances is based on my expirience with alliances in PA.

There is no right or wrong in that matter I feel, more its a matter of opinion. I think that the alliance still has its purpose and its importance in PA, but the way some of the latest round developed the alliance lost alot of importance, hopefully and seemingly it seems that alliances is being prioritised by the PA crew as a thing to improve for the future so that the alliances once again will be the centre of the focus for alot of players.

I like to think and hope that the players that have played with me during the rounds have seen my alliance as an alliance that sticks up for their players and that promotes cooperation and friendship in it.
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Unread 27 May 2006, 23:10   #41
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
.
My experience with alliances doesn't matter. Like you say, it's a matter of opinion wether you want to see an alliance ranking or not. To me, as an outsider who isn't playing anymore, it's great to have an alliance ranking list to look at. But it's not about removing alliances completely from the game like #1 post suggested as that's impossible without disallowing OOG defence. It's about removing the ranks. Of course, keep the alliance ingame so people can defend with -1 eta, but just remove ranks.

The excitement about alliances would also be much bigger without ranks. Remember AD pre-r10? Remember when you weren't 100% sure where you had your opponents? Politics is completely dull now and so is the discussions in AD, just because of the ranks and everyone know where they have eachother (just not when alliances hide players OOT).

The alliances wouldn't loose their value because of removing the ranks, not at all. The strongest alliances would still be the one having most top100 planets and strongest galaxies.

I'd love to see a round without alliance rankings, but I doubt it'll happen.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 01:25   #42
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

I learn't the game from my cluster alliance back in round 4 (i think). Grendel, Decoy and a few other legion (conc?) guys made C4E which, from my point of view, was an amazingly organised alliance and easily the best fun i've had playing.

I think most of what is called planetarions commnuity was created in those first few rounds.
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Unread 28 May 2006, 03:31   #43
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
in my opinion the best thing to do is ................

have massive support in for cluster alliances, replace the traditional planetarion supported alliance system with cluster alliances, that way you're always in a random alliance every round, make it so people have to vote on the hc etc of the cluster alliance give people in the same cluster alliance a -2 eta bonus to defence basically throw everything you can in to supporting cluster alliances over traditional alliances

sure battle groups will attack together but **** with everyone in random cluster alliances each round, and the likely hood of getting a respected player in each cluster so that they will get a capable hc i think it could really chop the game up

I could agree with something like this, wrather than just throwing out alliances completely. Make incluster defence -1 and out of cluster defence impossible or something. Every round we would have a different group of people playing together against a different set of enimies. Instead of this seesaw gameplay we have going now, when alliances take turns winning(Thank you ascen for breaking this up last round)
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Unread 29 May 2006, 04:07   #44
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

You could just take out the alliance ranking scores etc but reveal them at the end then you have to assume who you should target and war with.

Sure bigger alliances would do well because the big players would but without knowing who your hitting the bigger players will be targetted
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Unread 29 May 2006, 08:22   #45
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by CheeseCakes
You could just take out the alliance ranking scores etc but reveal them at the end then you have to assume who you should target and war with.

Sure bigger alliances would do well because the big players would but without knowing who your hitting the bigger players will be targetted
That's not really how it works. The top alliances will have near-complete intel databases by tick 200-300 (on the alliances that matter to them). The less-hardcore alliances will have the same by tick 500-600.

And then we're back to normal. There's never any assumptions as to who to target - alliances know what they're doing, with or without tags.
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Unread 29 May 2006, 22:06   #46
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

I too would like to see more iteration of galaxies or even cluster, and not so much weight on alliances. But at the same time i can see how removing alliances can be troublesome to the realm of the game in its current condition. So in my opinion the best way to improve things would be to make alliances shortened to 30-40 members, force a smaller base which means there success is directly effected by the strength of its members and there galaxies. Which leads to the next problem of alliances padding galaxies on the buddy system, and also the lame tactic of not tagging members till late round *cough*, so revisions will need to be made to prevent this, which may end up being more work than the PA team would like. But smaller alliances would be the best way in my eyes, it'll force more politics as you'll need NAPs and the such, which also needs to be limited and controlled so one allie doesn't nap with the top 3so they can secure there #4 spot.

Lots of cause and effect of changing the games shape, but at the same time no change has evercame without problems at first, thats why were nearing the end of r17 and the game still isnt perfect so were gonna have a r18 with new changes. Change has to start somewhere with something.
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Unread 29 May 2006, 22:10   #47
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

In light of that last post, surely the shortening of alliances to betwen 30 and 40 members would then mean there is more competition between the alliances at the top, with smaller groups and better players spread amongst these allies. But in the same instance, it would mean ally naps etc forming between the top allies as is the case to date.

It could be seen as both constructive and destructive.
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Unread 29 May 2006, 23:33   #48
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

If alliances were completely removed from the in game system, and I were a member of a certain group where I had experience in military, internal and political organisation, I know how I'd react.

Even without an ingame tag, I would mobilise that group and use them to try and dominate their galaxies. Then I would use these galaxies to overpower a bunch of other galaxies each night to gain roids & rank.

At the end of the round, I would ask each galaxy that had benefitted from the combined organisational and technical materials of the group to change their name to something with the group's tag. Then I, and a lot of other people I know would rate success by where this tag appeared in the rankings. I have seen, within my own alliance, people sacrifice their night's attacks, even their own rankings to protect a player or players they know/respect/owe a favour or is simply one of the group's top players (either by rank, or their contribution as an MO, or both), as the group takes pride in such 'flagship' planets or galaxies.

I would do this, becauase if i didn't, other similar people would do exactly the same and overpower my galaxy and every other galaxy that didn't have backup, one at a time.

Theory has to take into account the reactions and adaptions of the playerbase. :/
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Unread 30 May 2006, 09:12   #49
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

Sounds more exciting to me.
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Unread 30 May 2006, 09:59   #50
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Re: Complete Overhaul of Pa

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Originally Posted by bwtmc
I disagree gzambo, I happen to think their purpose would change and they'd become a damn sight more interesting for all involved.
Nope, infact in time alliances will be formed on default anyway. IF your galaxy of 10 ends #2 then the next round you'll think "what if we work together with 4 other galaxies and make sure one of them takes the win" ...

And soon you'll have 5 galaxies fighting for the same common goal, obviously avoiding eachother as that'd hurt their own ultimate goal. And there you have what pple would call an 'alliance'.
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