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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 19:23   #1
Cochese
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Next round stats?

Anyone working on anything?
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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 20:20   #2
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Re: Next round stats?

These stats will serve as basis for next round: http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

I would have thought paisley would have posted them up by now, but i guess he's still working out some kinks
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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 20:24   #3
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Re: Next round stats?

Thanks!
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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 21:21   #4
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Re: Next round stats?

Banshee (upper case B)
Revenant (E, E, A)
Bolt Thrower (upper case T)
Buccaneer (double C, single N, double E)

More importantly, have we not learned from this round that 4 races is worse than 5?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 21:27   #5
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Re: Next round stats?

Looks like mz's alliance is going Xan again.
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Unread 18 Sep 2016, 22:02   #6
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Re: Next round stats?

Beetle as ally def, Ghost ingal against Fi. Only kill-based fleet that has actual counters.

Only ingal Rogue counters Fr.

No ally def against De. Only ingal Wyvern stops De. No real point in Ter/Zik team ups.

Only Dragon counters Cr.

Nothing counters Bs.

Off-class ships are shit.

Given that, roiding fleets are all that matters. The only ones that can stop more than 2 other fleets are Ter De and Ter Bs. Together they stop all but Xan Fi and Ter Bs.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 18 Sep 2016 at 22:22. Reason: Thanks Cochese!
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Unread 20 Sep 2016, 17:12   #7
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Re: Next round stats?

Soz I was taking a wee break from the forums...

I was expecting better analysis of the stats like how you can fake ter de as bs and zik de as cr etc.

I would like appoco to fix stealing as discussed with jintao many a time.
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Unread 20 Sep 2016, 21:27   #8
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Re: Next round stats?

That does not exactly fix the problems with these stats I listed, specifically the fact that Ter De, Ter Bs, Zik De and Zik Cr are all overpowered to some extent.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 20 Sep 2016, 23:04   #9
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Re: Next round stats?

what changes would you do?
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 05:12   #10
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Re: Next round stats?

TBH you are the stat maker. If you are unaware of the quite blatant errors in your set then maybe another set should be used. A certain level of competence should be on display in the initial draft, there is to much wrong with these for that to be the case.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 09:21   #11
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Re: Next round stats?

Quite frankly, and I'm not trying to diss you here, I'd just start over. I've made several sets of stats that had fundamental issues like the ones I feel yours has, and that's what I usually do. Either that or I just give up.

What you've shown here is the easy part, the first 2, maybe 3 hours of stats design. If you get that "wrong" (opinion me), it's pretty hard to fix them, relative to the amount of effort put in already.

I can come up with some general things I'd like to see though:

* Every non-EMP roiding fleet should be out-inited by 1 defense ship, usually but not necessarily always ally-ETA. Offclass ships are great for this, as people won't want to build too many, and having roiding fleets counter each other tends to lead to one or two fleets reigning supreme.
* I don't like useless ships, though sometimes having a couple is unavoidable.
* 5 races: 4 races with 2 pods each reduces the number of teamup-based fleet strategies to 2 (Fr and De this round, De and Cr in this set) which hurts universe ship diversity. 6 races would be even better!
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 10:05   #12
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Re: Next round stats?

"Offclass ships are great for this, as people won't want to build too many"

With the new allie defence fleet this does sound stupido.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 11:12   #13
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
TBH you are the stat maker. If you are unaware of the quite blatant errors in your set then maybe another set should be used. A certain level of competence should be on display in the initial draft, there is to much wrong with these for that to be the case.
I'm quite aware of the stats aims and strategies that can be done with them and these stats are quite deliberate in this.
what I was looking for was perspective.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 14:36   #14
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
"Offclass ships are great for this, as people won't want to build too many"

With the new allie defence fleet this does sound stupido.
Why?
Ally fleet doesn't change anything about people not wanting to pump value into non-attack ships
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 19:32   #15
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Re: Next round stats?

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Originally Posted by berten View Post
Why?
Ally fleet doesn't change anything about people not wanting to pump value into non-attack ships
If making offclass ships stronger, like often is the case, the 20 support planets in each tag will get more powerfull if they just focus spamming one of these ships.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 21:07   #16
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Re: Next round stats?

Support planets can build any ships, regardless of whether they're offclass or not.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 21 Sep 2016, 21:51   #17
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Support planets can build any ships, regardless of whether they're offclass or not.
Well making off class ships stronger than they need to leads to support planets building this ship, and then making up for the fact that "score planets" dont want to build too many of them.
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 08:58   #18
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Re: Next round stats?

Then I suppose we shouldn't make them stronger than they need to be, but exactly as strong as they need to be.

But quite frankly, I don't give a shit about support planets.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 09:07   #19
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Re: Next round stats?

someone said 6 races? that'd be perfect for balance!
re-add Etd that builds steal/cloak/emp (1 of each) & kill

And then lets do an aggressive Cathaar off-shoot that builds emp/kill (half/half)

Make cathaar 100% emp
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Round 17 - Rank 3 - Omen (Zik)
Round 18 - Rank 2 - eXilition (Zik)
Round 20 - Rank 7 - Destiny (Zik)
Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 29 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
Round 67 - Rank 24 - Norsemen (Etd)
Round 68 - Rank 80 - Norsemen (Ter & Unscannable)
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 10:14   #20
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj View Post
someone said 6 races? that'd be perfect for balance!
re-add Etd that builds steal/cloak/emp (1 of each) & kill

And then lets do an aggressive Cathaar off-shoot that builds emp/kill (half/half)

Make cathaar 100% emp
Or have 3?

Scrap Terran and just have zik, cat and xan
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 10:40   #21
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Re: Next round stats?

idea for 6 races is for more teamups and variety possible
Currently in this stat set with have 2 CR attack fleets, 2 DE, 1 CO, 1 FI, 1 BS, 1 FR

If we added ETD with FI(emp) roiding fleet and FR(cloak) roiding fleet

Then added a Cathaar offshoot with 1 CO (kill) roiding fleet and 1 BS (emp roiding fleet)

FOR EXAMPLE ^^

we would have 2 of each attack class, and lots more teamup possibilities and more racial diversity!
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Round 17 - Rank 3 - Omen (Zik)
Round 18 - Rank 2 - eXilition (Zik)
Round 20 - Rank 7 - Destiny (Zik)
Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 29 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
Round 66 - Rank 9 - Ultores (Etd)
Round 67 - Rank 24 - Norsemen (Etd)
Round 68 - Rank 80 - Norsemen (Ter & Unscannable)
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 10:59   #22
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caj View Post
idea for 6 races is for more teamups and variety possible
Currently in this stat set with have 2 CR attack fleets, 2 DE, 1 CO, 1 FI, 1 BS, 1 FR

If we added ETD with FI(emp) roiding fleet and FR(cloak) roiding fleet

Then added a Cathaar offshoot with 1 CO (kill) roiding fleet and 1 BS (emp roiding fleet)

FOR EXAMPLE ^^

we would have 2 of each attack class, and lots more teamup possibilities and more racial diversity!

People can't even do stat sets with 4 or 5 races in properly. I doubt added more variation with a 6th race would help
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 11:37   #23
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Re: Next round stats?

What makes you think adding more races makes it harder to make stats?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 12:51   #24
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What makes you think adding more races makes it harder to make stats?
More ships, more numbers. We have tried odd races, we have tried even races, we come to the same end every time. People can't make stats. People who shouldn't make stats are , people who can left a long time ago.
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 14:54   #25
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Re: Next round stats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
More ships, more numbers. We have tried odd races, we have tried even races, we come to the same end every time. People can't make stats. People who shouldn't make stats are , people who can left a long time ago.
Please make a set of stats then as I'm sure they'd turn out awesome
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 15:24   #26
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Re: Next round stats?

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Please make a set of stats then as I'm sure they'd turn out awesome
Rd 49, it was a pretty awesome round.

Your turn
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 16:45   #27
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Re: Next round stats?

If (and I stress if) there's a problem with incompetent people making stats, then I don't think simply reducing the amount of numbers by a fifth is going to make much difference. That'll help with balancing, the annoying last half of making a usable set of stats, but that's the easy part. Yes, it takes a lot of time, and it's no fun at all, but it's not hard. Do bcalcs, see which fleets over- or underperform, tweak a few numbers, redo. And redo... And redo...

I don't think cutting a race helps much in the really important first 10-20%, when you're mapping out interactions and deciding on counters. You have to do a bit less of it, sure, but that bit doesn't become any easier.
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 17:11   #28
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Re: Next round stats?

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Or have 3?

Scrap Terran and just have zik, cat and xan
Its called the xmas round
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Unread 22 Sep 2016, 17:47   #29
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Re: Next round stats?

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Its called the xmas round
Why are the good things just for Xmas?
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Unread 23 Sep 2016, 23:00   #30
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Re: Next round stats?

Im happy to submit the stats for beta testing unless there is anything folks are unhappy with.
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Unread 23 Sep 2016, 23:22   #31
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Re: Next round stats?

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Im happy to submit the stats for beta testing unless there is anything folks are unhappy with.
I think mzy raised some valid points earlier.

List:
Beetle as ally def, Ghost ingal against Fi. Only kill-based fleet that has actual counters.

Only ingal Rogue counters Fr.

No ally def against De. Only ingal Wyvern stops De. No real point in Ter/Zik team ups.

Only Dragon counters Cr.

Nothing counters Bs.

But I haven't had time to calc so it may be balanced based on eff/armour etc.

However some ships is totally useless:
Xan: Bolt thrower, why would you build it?
Ter: Syren, not as bad as BT, but will anyone build it, very little flak, bad eff
Cath: Cant see scarab being built either
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Unread 25 Sep 2016, 17:52   #32
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Re: Next round stats?

I like the set; although I would have preferred 5/6 races.

Terran BS seems OP, can you increase init on Dragon to 8? Atleast afford Xan a chance to provide ally defence against it.
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Unread 26 Sep 2016, 22:00   #33
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Re: Next round stats?

added mantis a cath bs emp ship that t1 cr and t2 bs

there is going to be a beta test sheduled for thursday night to crash ships and do final tweaks
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 09:13   #34
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Re: Next round stats?

How long will the testing take to find out Ter BS are massively overpowered?

Final tweaks?.... did you mean massive revision.....
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 09:45   #35
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Re: Next round stats?

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How long will the testing take to find out Ter BS are massively overpowered?
Terran BS A/C and D/C seem average in comparison with other rounds. The defense against Terran BS is ok too, every race has a anti-BS De, three targeting BS as T1. Which means BS will play in attack like in any other round where there was a similar attack fleet.

My concern is toward De in attack. I think if the Cath De was an emp ship would make De playable and at the same time hinder BS a little bit more.
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 10:24   #36
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Re: Next round stats?

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Terran BS A/C and D/C seem average in comparison with other rounds.
lol
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 11:09   #37
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Re: Next round stats?

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Terran BS A/C and D/C seem average in comparison with other rounds. The defense against Terran BS is ok too, every race has a anti-BS De, three targeting BS as T1. Which means BS will play in attack like in any other round where there was a similar attack fleet.

My concern is toward De in attack. I think if the Cath De was an emp ship would make De playable and at the same time hinder BS a little bit more.
All the antiBS Destroyers are out init'd

Feel sorry for Zik, 2 ships with T1 BS... both steal. 1 Cr and 1 DE, both dead long before they'll steal
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 11:17   #38
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Re: Next round stats?

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lol
Isn't D/C around 300 and A/C between 500 and 540 average for a NORMAL ship with INIT advantage?
Chimera, Peacekeeper, Cutter and Scarab, all non-emp, also have average values of A/C and D/C for their kind of ship (the crap, needed, defense ship). This set made it that at least every race has a De or Cr anti-BS. So I assume BS is targeted by a lot of ships.
Without taking EMP into account, isn't it safe to say that BS is not overpower? And that the required amount of value to stop BS fleets is not some unreasonable?
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 12:40   #39
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Re: Next round stats?

No, I was commenting on the fact that you seem to think effs are what makes fleets under- or overpowered.
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 13:38   #40
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Re: Next round stats?

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No, I was commenting on the fact that you seem to think effs are what makes fleets under- or overpowered.
Besides init (what was Damakles' concern), effs and how abundant, synergistic and efficient the defense against it may be, what else?

Imo, if Paisley wanted a fleet that alone can roid solo any race, he also gave alliances enough to build a defense pool against it.

But DE won't be able to play in a round majority chooses Terran BS. Therefore, I suggested to make scarab EMP, so it can be used both in attack and defense.

edit: and maybe gives Cath a third pod. Imo cath ships are better balanced when built as a support fleet.
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 14:13   #41
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Re: Next round stats?

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How long will the testing take to find out Ter BS are massively overpowered?

Final tweaks?.... did you mean massive revision.....
Im aware that Ter BS has first cut kill advantage... but terran as a whole OP is questionable.
to compensate for this tula eff is 170% v bs mantis now fires t2 at 0 loss (EMP) at around 75% eff. terran has no ally eta anti fi nor co.
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 17:02   #42
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Re: Next round stats?

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Im aware that Ter BS has first cut kill advantage...
to compensate for this ... terran has no ally eta anti fi nor co.
And? what's that supposed to mean? That Ter is weak by not having ally def vs FI/CO?
The Ter of last round used to have no anti-FI/CO on ally def (herpies were almost non-existant), maxing it on CO anti-FR/DE.
And you can always pl def (ultores did it a lot last round with CR and FR
So, how does not having anti-FI/CO on ally def makes Ter not OP?
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 17:14   #43
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Re: Next round stats?

If the pl def bug is really fixed for the next round, it will be a bit more difficult to Ultores to play with a similar ship strat they used last round.

But how atm Terran is weak in def? If a Terran goes BS as attack fleet, it will have at most 25% of its value in Pegasus, which is probably not enough to self-cover CO incs. So it will have to rely on PLed def or make the coverage completely with FI from other planets as FI and DE don't help each other in that calc.

Against FI, Terran is completely naked. And Xan promisses to be a good race to play.
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 17:22   #44
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Re: Next round stats?

Do you seriously think someone sat there for 5-6 hrs testing every planet that incs for future pl etas via the def point page when Ult had over 50 fleets incomming per tick? Are you that moronic? Are you so drowned in butchers rhetoric that whatever he says must be true regardless of the practicality of it.

Ult are good at def because they have DCs who don't do stupid things like overload on fake def (chucking 5 fakes at an Inc that needs two to cover just screams land me), they have members who actually respond at night. PL 'bugs' won't change this, it will just widen the gap even further, like ally def fleet
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Unread 27 Sep 2016, 17:38   #45
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Re: Next round stats?

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PL 'bugs' won't change this, it will just widen the gap even further, like ally def fleet
Then we agree. And knowing they are good and pretty active, it was certainly a valuable tool. And it isn't that hard as you believe. The other alliances even help not using mixed classes in their waves.
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Unread 28 Sep 2016, 21:26   #46
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Re: Next round stats?

trust me ultores slept well this round while 1 person launched all those fleets.

alliance def fleet is broken :P

1 planet can run 60 planets defence !!
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Round 24 - Rank 2 - Conspiracy (Xan)
Round 29 - Rank 4 - Ascendancy (Xan)
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Unread 28 Sep 2016, 21:37   #47
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Re: Next round stats?

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trust me ultores slept well this round while 1 person launched all those fleets.

alliance def fleet is broken :P

1 planet can run 60 planets defence !!
The stats don't really show that though, do they? Ult used that facility less than 4 other alliances; even p3ng used it over 100% more than them.
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Unread 28 Sep 2016, 23:16   #48
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Re: Next round stats?

TBH the less sleep that is interupted the better
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Unread 29 Sep 2016, 03:16   #49
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Re: Next round stats?

the stats show ultores actually didnt have much inc compared to penguins, who had alot
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Unread 29 Sep 2016, 14:30   #50
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Re: Next round stats?

Beta test starts today at 5pm game time (6pm uk time) sign up and try stuff out.

Join #beta for more details
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