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Unread 20 May 2016, 18:12   #1
Jintao
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R68 Shipstat proposals

Hey all,

Now that R67 shipstats are final, it's time to start looking towards R68 shipstats.

Anyone who wants to propose a set should do so in this thread. The weekend of 11-12 june i'll look at the base proposals that have been offered.

What fields do I expect the proposed set to have by than?
  • Shipclass
  • T1,T2,T3
  • Type
  • Init
  • Race

Again i don't expect the values in these fields to be final. They are meant to give a good impression of the kind of set you envision.

Finally I would also like your submission post to include a few lines in which you describe your set and the ideas behind it. No essay's please!

After the weekend of 11-12 june everyone will get a first feedback on his/her proposal from me and i'll select the set's that are in the running.

Prefered direction of the set i'm looking for (You are not required to follow these, but you get bonus points if you do):
  • A set with 4 races (you can pick which one you drop)
  • No more than 2 ships / class / race (excluding pods, sk's and resource ships)
  • 2 pod classes / race
  • Maximum 8 combat ships / race (excluding pods, sk's and resource ships)
  • MT or mixed MT/ST set
  • Balanced set
  • Steal ships can't chain steal into a class they can't naturally steal into or steal there own class
  • You are not required to stick to traditional races ( 4 etd like races are allowed if you wanna do a set like this )

The goal is for appoco to announce R68's set as final at EORC. So people signing up to make a set should be aware they need to develop it during the round and not after the round has ended.

Good luck to everyone and looking forward to seeing some good submissions.
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Unread 21 May 2016, 01:34   #2
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
[*]You are not required to stick to traditional races ( 4 etd like races are allowed if you wanna do a set like this )
Just close the game now and spare us the death throes.
This game with no back-story is just random numbers entered into a spreadsheet.
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Unread 21 May 2016, 03:31   #3
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

You can't imagine a war between fewer than 5 races? After last round, one could easily make a case for the Terran race needing to recover from its devastating losses.

Besides, PA hasn't been about its story since what, 10 years now?
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Unread 21 May 2016, 09:10   #4
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Yeah, the notion that PA survives because of its rich lore and detailed backstory is ludicrous, frankly.
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Unread 21 May 2016, 15:37   #5
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

My point wasn't about the number of races but about the lack of any distinction between them.

And yes, I agree that the back story has been almost erased over the last few years - I'm just objecting to losing it altogether.
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Unread 24 May 2016, 06:31   #6
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

1 race
Diverse tree like in past
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Unread 24 May 2016, 14:56   #7
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Put my "zikonia has fallen" set up for competition, herewith.
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Unread 24 May 2016, 21:43   #8
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I don't understand why so restrictive other than being balanced? Why have zik not allow to steal into a main class? Given they don't get value bonus from steals anyway surely it's a strategy tactic?
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Unread 24 May 2016, 23:05   #9
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kez View Post
Why have zik not allow to steal into a main class?
I think you are misinterpreting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Steal ships can't chain steal into a class they can't naturally steal into or steal there own class
Jintao does not mean that they cant steal into a 'main' class. Rather he means they are not allowed to steal into a class they cant already steal through stealing someone else's steal ships.

Lets say hypothetically Zik can steal into fi/co/de/bs, but not fr and cr. Etd then also has a steal ship that steals fr. That is fine. However it is not fine if that steal ship is a fi/co/de/bs ship as that would allow Zik to then steal on into a class that they cannot normally steal; fr. So that Etd ship stealing fr would have to be a cr ship (having ships steal themselves is not good so best not be fr!)

Someone correct me if I am wrong.
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Unread 25 May 2016, 08:33   #10
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

As far as I understand it, that is correct (but dumb).
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Unread 25 May 2016, 19:30   #11
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

For example, the Widow this round will not be stealing because of this rule.
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Unread 26 May 2016, 05:35   #12
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
As far as I understand it, that is correct (but dumb).
i think its a useless restriction, that just makes designing stats harder

We got a MH-Team to prevent what this restriction shall do - rather have them investigate more instead
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Unread 27 May 2016, 08:09   #13
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post

We got a MH-Team to prevent what this restriction shall do
Right, because they're so effective when it comes to doing their jobs
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Unread 27 May 2016, 12:41   #14
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Its like saying that we need to remove pods because there is so many roid farms, or that cov-op should be removed as there is too much farming there

Ive been fighting the stats mafia for years now, and suddently now people are starting to see the real facists they are.
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Unread 27 May 2016, 18:22   #15
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Though arguable before, ever since the ability to steal ships through covert ops was introduced, chain stealing has been a non-issue and is an unnecessary restriction.
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Unread 5 Jul 2016, 08:59   #16
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

So?
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Unread 5 Jul 2016, 23:09   #17
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I would like to see a return of stealers don't die (but not suffient gains to farm ships but enough to cap back most losses so that stealing ships can actually be attacking ships)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...WDo/edit#gid=0

A set where it has been beta tested, what it does need is a tweak to the stealing mechanisms..

For example zik cr is doable as an attack fleet if it can max cap 10% above the fleet values (and not go above this) and still can obtain this even when some of the fleet has been killed off (afterall most players play for value)

edit- a 100k zik cr fleet can't be bigger than 110k after combat.
a 100k cr fleet could lose 20k value (down to 80k value but able to cap back to 110k)

what this set brings to the table is that stealing can be viable in attacking again.

-edit using stats like these will add more dyamics to attack/def fleets as it will be down to capping value v damage given....
Take r14 stats as an example as to what stats can be like.
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Unread 5 Jul 2016, 23:32   #18
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would like to see a return of stealers don't die
I think I don't need to list the reasons I don't like this.
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Unread 5 Jul 2016, 23:38   #19
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I think I don't need to list the reasons I don't like this.
humour me as to why?

stealing imo only has uses in defence and seldom in attack as it needs that killer kill ship in that class to make that fleet viable.

If farming is an issue I had made stealers fire after pods. So that blantant farming can be pulled up via MHs.
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 00:29   #20
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
humour me as to why?

stealing imo only has uses in defence and seldom in attack as it needs that killer kill ship in that class to make that fleet viable.

If farming is an issue I had made stealers fire after pods. So that blantant farming can be pulled up via MHs.
After the change in the farming rules, you cannot close anyone for farming if they arnt telling the MHs they are farming
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 06:15   #21
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
humour me as to why?

stealing imo only has uses in defence and seldom in attack as it needs that killer kill ship in that class to make that fleet viable.

If farming is an issue I had made stealers fire after pods. So that blantant farming can be pulled up via MHs.
Why should a none clean land give the same outcome as a clean land?
To me this makes no sense.
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 07:42   #22
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I would like to see a return of stealers don't die (but not suffient gains to farm ships but enough to cap back most losses so that stealing ships can actually be attacking ships)
I don't think we need this. People know the drawbacks of zik, but still play it. Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

Obviously i'm not mentioning how this is just calling for ship-farming.
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 13:48   #23
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I will wholeheartedly endorse any set of stats that encourages fleetcatching
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 14:27   #24
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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I will wholeheartedly endorse any set of stats that encourages fleetcatching
So would I, but that can easily be done without tampering with zik's stealrate.
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 17:10   #25
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Well tbh, 90% die rate wouldn't hurt.
There is no strong arguments against it
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 18:12   #26
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Well tbh, 90% die rate wouldn't hurt.
There is no strong arguments against it
TBH?!?

This is not the first time this subject has been brought up on the forums.
And there has been a lot of good points to support why it shouldn't be added.
So when you say "tbh"... I feel like smacking all those threads in your head.
(If it was physical possible)
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 20:11   #27
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

It's been a long time since we had stats with:
- feared Pegasus / Ghosts
- a good cloaked Ranger
- OP cath Co

What if we had a set with all the above?
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 20:16   #28
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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TBH?!?

This is not the first time this subject has been brought up on the forums.
And there has been a lot of good points to support why it shouldn't be added.
So when you say "tbh"... I feel like smacking all those threads in your head.
(If it was physical possible)
Yeah, and i was one of the ones arguing for why 90% die rate wouldnt be that bad.
The only troublesome interaction was between steal vs steal, and im not sure if they can put that to 100% die rate.
If one of the top value planets this round was to steal with all his ship value, it would be a minor score jump for manage such a steal. 4 million value stolen adds 400k score, wich tbh, isnt much.
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 20:28   #29
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Steal ships not (entirely) dieing requires active multi hunters.
If there are none then ships donations will be even more common and more profitable.. (see latest xmas round)
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 20:33   #30
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bram View Post
Steal ships not (entirely) dieing requires active multi hunters.
If there are none then ships donations will be even more common and more profitable.. (see latest xmas round)
last xmas round it was 0% die rate btw.
And that was mostly "friendly" crashes
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 20:40   #31
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Yeah, and i was one of the ones arguing for why 90% die rate wouldnt be that bad.
The only troublesome interaction was between steal vs steal, and im not sure if they can put that to 100% die rate.
If one of the top value planets this round was to steal with all his ship value, it would be a minor score jump for manage such a steal. 4 million value stolen adds 400k score, wich tbh, isnt much.
10% gain is A LOT when it will repeatedly be done through out the round.
The other races will need 10% higher income on avg to keep up with the ziks.
So what bonus'es does Cath, Xan, Ter and Etd have that makes up for that?
The Etd's can clearly abuse this aswell by massing their few steal ships they have available.

And round after round I hear people complain about "support" planets that only build 1 - 2 ships. You think this won't further push it into that direction?
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Unread 6 Jul 2016, 20:46   #32
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
10% gain is A LOT when it will repeatedly be done through out the round.
The other races will need 10% higher income on avg to keep up with the ziks.
So what bonus'es does Cath, Xan, Ter and Etd have that makes up for that?
The Etd's can clearly abuse this aswell by massing their few steal ships they have available.

And round after round I hear people complain about "support" planets that only build 1 - 2 ships. You think this won't further push it into that direction?
the whole idea is to give zik a compenastion for not being able to solo any races that has kill ships without losses... As you see in Paisleys stats, they only have steal ships.
And ter got higher CP, cath higher RP, xan cloak
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Unread 7 Jul 2016, 00:05   #33
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
the whole idea is to give zik a compenastion for not being able to solo any races that has kill ships without losses... As you see in Paisleys stats, they only have steal ships.
And ter got higher CP, cath higher RP, xan cloak
Zik has steal, and unless it's changed it has the best base stats for Covops. It has a lot going for it. Again the cos someone can't play it well we have to change to accommodate failures
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Unread 7 Jul 2016, 00:49   #34
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Zik has steal, and unless it's changed it has the best base stats for Covops. It has a lot going for it. Again the cos someone can't play it well we have to change to accommodate failures
Yes, zik has something going for them, but the whole point with Paisleys stats is that zik is 100% steal, wich has happend in like 10000 rounds.
Yes, they can be good in some stats where their killing ships have nice targetting/init, but if they were to fire last everytime they wouldnt be very good would they
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Unread 7 Jul 2016, 02:06   #35
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Yes, zik has something going for them, but the whole point with Paisleys stats is that zik is 100% steal, wich has happend in like 10000 rounds.
Yes, they can be good in some stats where their killing ships have nice targetting/init, but if they were to fire last everytime they wouldnt be very good would they
And it will lead to mass cath/zik. And whoever gets the most escorts by caths.
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Unread 7 Jul 2016, 02:31   #36
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
And it will lead to mass cath/zik. And whoever gets the most escorts by caths.
Look at this round ie, no ziks in top10.
if the top zik planet could exchange _ALL_ his fleet he would barely make top10
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Unread 11 Jul 2016, 17:58   #37
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Zik works quite the same as a Terran race - they fire late. Instead of changing inits on Zik you could also solve balance issues with tuning their armour up by ~40
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Unread 11 Jul 2016, 18:05   #38
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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This game with no back-story is just random numbers entered into a spreadsheet.
is life but random numbers entered into a spreadsheet with a feeble story we all share built upon?
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 18:04   #39
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

what I do want is a fun set of stats

the ones where you can do meta faking, soloing and no lolwaving etc
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 18:07   #40
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by gzambo View Post
I will wholeheartedly endorse any set of stats that encourages fleetcatching
motion seconded

too much NAPtarion for my liking
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 18:43   #41
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
motion seconded

too much NAPtarion for my liking
Jintao have his matrix and it will always be paper rock scissor as long as he's in charge.

We won't see any fun stats. Except the crazy set he's playing with
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 22:38   #42
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Sandvold View Post
Jintao have his matrix and it will always be paper rock scissor as long as he's in charge.

We won't see any fun stats. Except the crazy set he's playing with
I will be disappointed if he does
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 23:18   #43
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

What round's stats would you like to see re-used?
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 23:19   #44
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
What round's stats would you like to see re-used?
R14 but with modifications
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Unread 15 Jul 2016, 23:20   #45
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Oh.
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Unread 16 Jul 2016, 20:57   #46
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

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Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
Hey all,

Now that R67 shipstats are final, it's time to start looking towards R68 shipstats.

Anyone who wants to propose a set should do so in this thread. The weekend of 11-12 june i'll look at the base proposals that have been offered.

What fields do I expect the proposed set to have by than?
  • Shipclass
  • T1,T2,T3
  • Type
  • Init
  • Race

Again i don't expect the values in these fields to be final. They are meant to give a good impression of the kind of set you envision.

Finally I would also like your submission post to include a few lines in which you describe your set and the ideas behind it. No essay's please!

After the weekend of 11-12 june everyone will get a first feedback on his/her proposal from me and i'll select the set's that are in the running.

Prefered direction of the set i'm looking for (You are not required to follow these, but you get bonus points if you do):
  • A set with 4 races (you can pick which one you drop)
  • No more than 2 ships / class / race (excluding pods, sk's and resource ships)
  • 2 pod classes / race
  • Maximum 8 combat ships / race (excluding pods, sk's and resource ships)
  • MT or mixed MT/ST set
  • Balanced set
  • Steal ships can't chain steal into a class they can't naturally steal into or steal there own class
  • You are not required to stick to traditional races ( 4 etd like races are allowed if you wanna do a set like this )

The goal is for appoco to announce R68's set as final at EORC. So people signing up to make a set should be aware they need to develop it during the round and not after the round has ended.

Good luck to everyone and looking forward to seeing some good submissions.
I'm going to throw my hat into the arena whilst meeting the above criteria
(given up this round trying for stealers don't die)

I'm going to ask appoco for server access for a day to do EMP

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

My stats are influenced from different rounds and mashed together with a bit of thought (zik r42 is an example of this)

Race breakdown....

Terran can roid with de on...
caths/ziks/xan
Terran can roid with Bs on...
all races
Terran has no ally eta anti fi/co
Terran is open to fi/co/fr/bs inc.

Cath can roid with co on...
all races
Cath can roid with cr on...
all races
Cath is open to all inc subject to ship count
Emp for t1 is to be around the 150-170% eff mark

Xan can roid with fi on...
Terran/cath/zik
Xan can roid with Fr on...
Terran/xan/cath
Xan is open to terran/zik/cath/xan frig inc

Zik can roid with de on...
Cath/xan/zik
zik can roid with cr on...
cath/xan/zik

there is Good scope to meta fake on other races aswell
as I said I would do EMP when I get server access
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Unread 16 Jul 2016, 22:38   #47
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

I've recently been working on an offline bcalc and used it to create a new stats analysis tool, not based on heuristics like the last one ("Cathaar never roids Terran") but on the outcome of actual battles. If you have a non-Google link to your stats (pastebin?), I'll run your stats through it, see what it says.
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Unread 17 Jul 2016, 00:44   #48
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
I've recently been working on an offline bcalc and used it to create a new stats analysis tool, not based on heuristics like the last one ("Cathaar never roids Terran") but on the outcome of actual battles. If you have a non-Google link to your stats (pastebin?), I'll run your stats through it, see what it says.
Where u hiding it?
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Unread 17 Jul 2016, 10:32   #49
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

once ive done emp (took me about 2 hours to make a beta stats emp work the last time I was in the server) I might take you up on that Mz
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Unread 19 Jul 2016, 13:32   #50
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Re: R68 Shipstat proposals

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=401886377772
http://beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl?race=2
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?rn=93438549692
Beta stats done will update the emp resists/guns to my spreadsheet
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