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Unread 6 May 2013, 13:12   #1
Appocomaster
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Round 52 stats

Round 52 will be a re-roll of the Round 50 stats.

Beta stats contain the 'most accurate' stats, but only 2 real changes have been made so far:
swapping zik bs and etd cr fleets around
evening off the resource costs for pods [my personal preference]

I need to probably rebalance the fr/de and cr/bs a bit, and I'm also tempted to lose the Beetle T3.

I hope to update them over the next week or so; suggestions welcome
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Unread 6 May 2013, 14:02   #2
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Re: Round 52 stats

Beetle has no T3.

As said on IRC: nerf Viper, nerf Inforza, buff Ter Bs.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 14:47   #3
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Beetle has no T3.

As said on IRC: nerf Viper, nerf Inforza, buff Ter Bs.
YES! I agree.. tho i think Ter isn't strong enough just yet, boost Pegs too
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Unread 6 May 2013, 15:26   #4
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Re: Round 52 stats

Co nerf = De buff.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 16:38   #5
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Re: Round 52 stats

ohh crap, forgot to add my sarcasm tags again it seems
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Unread 6 May 2013, 16:57   #6
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Beetle has no T3.
Sorry I was thinking of round 49 stats
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Unread 6 May 2013, 17:23   #7
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
ohh crap, forgot to add my sarcasm tags again it seems
Considering that Co fleets completely dominated r50, a nerf there is rather necessary. This (as said), automatically buffs De, because Co and De are locked like the tides, so Ter De doesn't require an explicit improvement.

However, that has nothing to do with Ter Bs. Ter Bs is weak because you can't go pure Bs. Ter De requires 4 ships (Centaur, Pegasus, Drake, Wyvern) whereas Ter Bs requires the same 4 ships plus Dragons (you could also replace Pegasus with Harpies, for the same effect). Therefore, a buff is reasonable.

I don't think it needs to be particularly huge, though, considering that having an Etd Bs fleet to hug shit will help Ter Bs a lot, offensively.

Interestingly, Etd Bs faces the same problem that Ter Bs does, with the Investor as the Drake and the Tycoon playing the role of the Dragon. Different types makes that less important though.

So, yeah, I think your sarcasm is misplaced.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 18:15   #8
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Re: Round 52 stats

Imo etd needs a complete do over, it is just as crap as it was r50 if not worse with the current change.

Now zik / cath goes together like hand in glow with 2 same pod classes making them better for teams than r50. While etd have the exact same loopholes like they did back then, but now only Ter BS to lean on in attacks.

FIX ETD plz!!!!
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Unread 6 May 2013, 19:12   #9
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
ohh crap, forgot to add my sarcasm tags again it seems
I thought of asking about that, but was a bit unconfident due to mz reply with so much certainty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Considering that Co fleets completely dominated r50, .....
Did CO fleets dominate among the Xan, Cath and Zik because they were really good or because the other ship classes were awful?
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Unread 6 May 2013, 19:30   #10
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Re: Round 52 stats

Oh, and rename the Inforza.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Did CO fleets dominate among the Xan, Cath and Zik because they were really good or because the other ship classes were awful?
A bit of both.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 21:24   #11
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Considering that Co fleets completely dominated r50, a nerf there is rather necessary. This (as said), automatically buffs De, because Co and De are locked like the tides, so Ter De doesn't require an explicit improvement.

However, that has nothing to do with Ter Bs. Ter Bs is weak because you can't go pure Bs. Ter De requires 4 ships (Centaur, Pegasus, Drake, Wyvern) whereas Ter Bs requires the same 4 ships plus Dragons (you could also replace Pegasus with Harpies, for the same effect). Therefore, a buff is reasonable.

I don't think it needs to be particularly huge, though, considering that having an Etd Bs fleet to hug shit will help Ter Bs a lot, offensively.

Interestingly, Etd Bs faces the same problem that Ter Bs does, with the Investor as the Drake and the Tycoon playing the role of the Dragon. Different types makes that less important though.

So, yeah, I think your sarcasm is misplaced.
While CO fleets might have 'dominated' r50... Ter BS was so strong practically nothing could stop it from getting massive xp lands both early and late round. This was a strong reason for ND's rise to power. Add to this the complete disability for 3 races to stop DE fakes and an overly strong pegasus and you see where my issue with Terran as a whole comes from.

If/when Ter BS does get boosted i foresee a lot of ppl going offensive only with some defensive xan and zik support planets. As ter BS you would build primarily Pegs, Wyvern and Dragon, leaving you open to FI and BS. Fi is too crap to be around and would be easily stopped by some massive Inforza fleet while you need massive ghostfleets to stop BS incs.

Tbh, the etd/zik CR/BS switch in itself is allready a boost to BS. As Ter BS now has the backup of an emp ship to stun the only real danger to them (ghosts)

While CO fleets were massively strong offensively, they had a major struggle in defending against a larger number of incoming (especially other CO) unless you added a tonne of 'useless' ships to be able to fake ur anti CO.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 21:46   #12
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
While CO fleets might have 'dominated' r50... Ter BS was so strong practically nothing could stop it from getting massive xp lands both early and late round. This was a strong reason for ND's rise to power. Add to this the complete disability for 3 races to stop DE fakes and an overly strong pegasus and you see where my issue with Terran as a whole comes from.
I'm unwilling to drag AD into here, but Newdawn won because of politics, not because of the stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
If/when Ter BS does get boosted i foresee a lot of ppl going offensive only with some defensive xan and zik support planets. As ter BS you would build primarily Pegs, Wyvern and Dragon, leaving you open to FI and BS. Fi is too crap to be around and would be easily stopped by some massive Inforza fleet while you need massive ghostfleets to stop BS incs.
I already suggested nerfing Inforza and Beetle, which boosts Xan Fi (probably by too much, to be quite honest). Also, Ghosts are cloaked and there were tons of them around. I went Ter Bs for the last half of r50 and barely landed, despite having plenty of fleets to team up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
While CO fleets were massively strong offensively, they had a major struggle in defending against a larger number of incoming (especially other CO) unless you added a tonne of 'useless' ships to be able to fake ur anti CO.
Uh, what? Co fleets were not struggling defensively. Are you insane?
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 22:21   #13
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Re: Round 52 stats

if ur intending to do a rerun of any prior stats, leave em as they were.
If you start playing around with it u will fck it over.
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Unread 6 May 2013, 23:01   #14
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Re: Round 52 stats

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if ur intending to do a rerun of any prior stats, leave em as they were.
If you start playing around with it u will fck it over.
Illogical
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Unread 7 May 2013, 06:23   #15
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Re: Round 52 stats

BloodyButcher has a point, see what happened to the supposed Best Stats Ever we re-used for r51.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 06:27   #16
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Illogical
If he wants offensive stats, why try Balance
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Unread 7 May 2013, 07:06   #17
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Re: Round 52 stats

Its no problem to keep a statset offensive, but it should still be balanced.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 08:55   #18
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
BloodyButcher has a point, see what happened to the supposed Best Stats Ever we re-used for r51.
Didn't expect a logical reply from you, nor did i get one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

If he wants offensive stats, why try Balance
Stick to your superior logic of nonsence... Balancing has nothing to do with offensive or defensive stats.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 12:02   #19
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Didn't expect a logical reply from you, nor did i get one.



Stick to your superior logic of nonsence... Balancing has nothing to do with offensive or defensive stats.
I dont remeber the r50 stats to be that unbalanced, i think there was no race more superior to the other.
Just my opinion
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Unread 7 May 2013, 12:25   #20
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Re: Round 52 stats

One of the things you can do to make Co less good is to Change targeting on Interceptor to Co. That way there are more than just Xan Fi that targets Co.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 12:40   #21
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Re: Round 52 stats

Sounds interesting.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 12:53   #22
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Re: Round 52 stats

still makes etd open to 5 classes.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 13:24   #23
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Re: Round 52 stats

Just because it doesn't fix Etd doesn't make it a bad suggestion. Etd should also be fixed, but not to the exclusion of everything else.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 13:42   #24
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Re: Round 52 stats

Why would you even think of touching the Cath race?
The top 10 was dominated by zik planets.
If any changes are to be made, it should be ETD getting buffed up a little tiny bit.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 15:06   #25
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Re: Round 52 stats

Code:
| Top | Ter | Cat | Xan | Zik | Etd |
|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
| 500 |  51 | 129 | 147 | 134 |  39 |
| 300 |  33 |  73 |  90 |  84 |  20 |
| 100 |  15 |  26 |  19 |  33 |   6 |
|  50 |   9 |  11 |  13 |  14 |   3 |
|  20 |   4 |   5 |   3 |   7 |   1 |
|  10 |   1 |   3 |   0 |   6 |   0 |
Zik and Cat were both very strong.
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"And THEN," Mary was yelling and stomping up and down, "I'm going to take all the tiny little pieces of your body left over from the explosions and I'm going to put them in a bag and then I will throw it in the ocean so SHARKS will eat them! And then do you know what I'll be doing?" he screamed. "I... will... be... LAUGHING." He giggled. "AT YOU!" he added.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 15:36   #26
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Re: Round 52 stats

when u want to achieve some sort of better balance, take the worst race and buff it and the best race and nerf it while keep rest nearly unchanged.
When ur willing to follow that doctrine then etd needs clear boost, Cat Zik more or less strong nerf.

Beetle looks again nearly as op as it was this round, far too efficient.
Less Guns or higher Pricing may do it.
Zik is a bit more complicated since steal is potentially huge with so many T1 only targetting ships.
Some Eff tweaking on Steal ships might do the job.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 15:38   #27
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Re: Round 52 stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Code:
| Top | Ter | Cat | Xan | Zik | Etd |
|-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----|
| 500 |  51 | 129 | 147 | 134 |  39 |
| 300 |  33 |  73 |  90 |  84 |  20 |
| 100 |  15 |  26 |  19 |  33 |   6 |
|  50 |   9 |  11 |  13 |  14 |   3 |
|  20 |   4 |   5 |   3 |   7 |   1 |
|  10 |   1 |   3 |   0 |   6 |   0 |
Zik and Cat were both very strong.
Yet you want to nerph Cat and not zik? this is a joke.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 15:57   #28
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Truebadour View Post
when u want to achieve some sort of better balance, take the worst race and buff it and the best race and nerf it while keep rest nearly unchanged.
When ur willing to follow that doctrine then etd needs clear boost, Cat Zik more or less strong nerf.

Beetle looks again nearly as op as it was this round, far too efficient.
Less Guns or higher Pricing may do it.
Zik is a bit more complicated since steal is potentially huge with so many T1 only targetting ships.
Some Eff tweaking on Steal ships might do the job.
If beets so overpowered, why didnt more allie go CO?
For the love if god keep the stats "wizs" away from the stats, they will only change it to their prefs.
The only thing that obvious need to be looked at all is the ETD race, NOTHING else.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 17:33   #29
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Yet you want to nerph Cat and not zik? this is a joke.
In every post in which I suggested nerfing Cat, I also suggested nerfing Zik. Read.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 17:34   #30
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
...need to be looked at is the ETD race
agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
...nothing else
not

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
... they will only change it to their prefs.
everyone has its pref's. urs is obviously the etd race.

Thing is, when u want achieve better balance u cannot regard 1 race isolated cos that is just Fanboi'ism. Etd boost is fine as stated before, but Zik and Cat were overperforming also same time, as r50 Performance Stats are crystal clear showing. That is a Fact. What to change in Detail tho is naturally subject to many Opinions. I merely provided mine.

Still, granting certain Ships/Races holy Cow Protection in Balance Process is just as obsolete as some anecdotal evidence.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 19:15   #31
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Re: Round 52 stats

Imo the concept of rnd 50 stats was that every potential attack fleet should have a difficult match and every race should be extremely weak against a certain class(and should build a useless and crap ship like arrowhead, locust, harpy, etc in order to be not fully unprotected). Therefore you risk being easily roided spending most part of you income in inforzas, pegs, cath co, etc. And that was what should have balanced that round.

Cath ships looking that way seems balanced, only the ratio "Value Emped"/"Value Built" should be maintained compatible with other rounds(if they are not).

So, if ziks were that efficient in achieving top positions, in my 2 rnds noobish vision, was not because inforza were too good, but because this race was not that weak against any fleet combination or because there wasnt any fleet combination particularly good against ziks.(edit:.. or the best race to be paired with is the perfect race too fill its weakness)
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Unread 7 May 2013, 22:11   #32
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Re: Round 52 stats

I'd like to see 2 targets for each ships still. IMO rnd 50 stats were not very fun because of what mxy said. That being said u could significantly nerf the t2 but i dont like that only 1 ships for each race had t1/t2.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 23:33   #33
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Re: Round 52 stats

Or the reason Zik did so well was because the lack of Etd's in the stat list. Zik were super vulnerable to Etd Fr. Also because Zik Co was VERY strong it made it very hard to roid Zik's past tick 400.

I think the root problem in this stat list is Etd the change to zik/etd cr/bs doesnt do much except make it harder for etd to roid zik. However If you actually take apart Etd Redo it I think you can keep the rest of the stat list the same.
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Unread 7 May 2013, 23:48   #34
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Re: Round 52 stats

Ghosts are overpowered. Any buff to xan needs to include a significant nerf to ghosts. mz knows I've whined about this since before that round started:P

Just off the top of my head I also think the ranger should be normal instead of cloaked. Such a powerful ship, doesn't really need to be able to fake it everywhere no? Would also help xan fi a bit. Just a side thought though.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 00:29   #35
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Re: Round 52 stats

if ghost was overpowered u would see far more xans in the top10
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Unread 8 May 2013, 03:09   #36
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Or the reason Zik did so well was because the lack of Etd's in the stat list. Zik were super vulnerable to Etd Fr. Also because Zik Co was VERY strong it made it very hard to roid Zik's past tick 400.

I think the root problem in this stat list is Etd the change to zik/etd cr/bs doesnt do much except make it harder for etd to roid zik. However If you actually take apart Etd Redo it I think you can keep the rest of the stat list the same.
Idd, the problem of ETD was that the race was vulnerable to both Ziks and Caths COs. Also, to change Interceptor's target to CO would make the steal ability useless unless you also change its class to CO. So, I have to agree with Mz. To nerf cath and zik CO is a more safe and easy option that to modify the entire ETD race.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 06:54   #37
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
if ghost was overpowered u would see far more xans in the top10


You wouldn't have seen them in top 10 because they were used as support planets. Xan had no real avenue for attacking that round. So those ghost that were built were used as def only.


As for Interceptor remaining as steal I think it would have to and that's fine. It would give them an option to go fi/co instead of just Fr/cr*

If Who ever is re-doing the stats can take the time to redo Etd Entirely that'd work out best for the stats as it would, if done right, balance out the stats.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 06:59   #38
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Re: Round 52 stats

Etd wasn't just weak to Co, it was weak against De, Cr, Bs and even FR.
Maybe make Dealer the emp ship with init 1, (Like spider r51) and make investor or Broker a kill or steal ship instead. As they are pretty much useless even in big numbers compared to what they target.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 08:27   #39
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Re: Round 52 stats

i did not play round 50, but just from looking on stats.
zik/cath looks strong
xan got the best def ship for the round in ghost, but xan attack looks weak.
TR bs looks like a power house
etd well i agree they should have a do over ;-) but there BS looks nice.

-------------------
with current stats i would have built this ships (anyone who played R50, plz tell me if iam wrong. ;-) )

TR
harpy for def, BS fleet for attack (open for FI/BS)
cath
Tarantula for def, co fleet for attack (open for FR/CR)
xan
Ghost for def, FI for attack (open for DE)
zik
Inforza for def, CR for attack (open for CR) there co is strong as well so could allso go CO attack but will be abit to open for FR/CR/BS that way.
Etd
Investor for def, Bs for attack (open to FI/CO)

but this is only after 10 min of looking on the stats.

the 2 best ships, inforza and ghost

the most useless ships, Arrowhead and Destroyer


best teamups has to be cath/zik
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Unread 8 May 2013, 10:30   #40
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Re: Round 52 stats

Someone remind me why arrowhead is normal?
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Unread 8 May 2013, 11:29   #41
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Re: Round 52 stats

Lets not forget stopping etd FR was next to impossible. So their defensive weakness is to a certain extent somewhat acceptable.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 11:48   #42
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Re: Round 52 stats

Ter:
A tiny dmg boost to some of their ships could be smth to think about.

Cath:
Making zik bs -> cr should give cath more cr incs which they isnt very good against. Maybe a small viper nerf could be smth to look at.


Xan:
make arrowhead cloaked, you know its gonna cause alot of confusion this round aswell, and then make the peacekeeper abit stronger(+100ac?) if its gonna be any value in teching to it.

(Remember when you make etd stronger youll make xan alot worse since etd rangers is the ultimate xan ****overs. So buff the pulsar if you buff etd, or consider making the peacekeeper multi target, or just st fr)

Zik:
Inforza needs a good nerf since it got a shitload of acdc AND is a hulls 1 MT ship(smth like -2/-3 armor and -1/-2 dmg)


Etd:
I think giving the interceptor t2 anti co so they cant be soloed by zik co, and the merchant a 5-7% price reduction(to make them abit stronger against etd), would be enough.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 13:11   #43
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
make arrowhead cloaked, you know its gonna cause alot of confusion this round aswell
I can't say I care, to be honest. It's not like we're hiding it.


Or... cloaking it.


...Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
and then make the peacekeeper abit stronger(+100ac?) if its gonna be any value in teching to it.
"A bit" he says. Dear lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
I think giving the interceptor t2 anti co so they cant be soloed by zik co, and the merchant a 5-7% price reduction(to make them abit stronger against etd), would be enough.
If Fi becomes a viable Etd attack fleet, then the Merchant is already good enough. Fr is one of the few classes Etd is actually good against.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 13:49   #44
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Re: Round 52 stats

They are good against fr, nothing wrong in making them better. Etd fr is a good attack fleet and making etd even stronger against them would help out the race itself. Id like to see etd not far from where it where strong offensively and alot of holes.
Actually when I think about it, I could see the interceptor as a ST with co instead of fi would make em less viable for attacking purposes and for defense u dont really need the anti fi anyway since u have the ranger.

And yeah maybe "abit" was the wrong word but who cares about the wording.. its a expensive research for xan and should be rewarded with a Good gal def ship atleast(and could make the ter de stronger to compensate)
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Unread 8 May 2013, 14:03   #45
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Re: Round 52 stats

Adding some t2's to more ETD ships could help the race sufficiently without modifying its "duck" behavior(does a bit of everything, but nothing really efficiently)
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Unread 8 May 2013, 14:15   #46
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
And yeah maybe "abit" was the wrong word but who cares about the wording.. its a expensive research for xan and should be rewarded with a Good gal def ship atleast(and could make the ter de stronger to compensate)
Considering that the Peacekeeper's sole purpose is defending against Ter De, making them both stronger is a little silly.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 15:22   #47
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Re: Round 52 stats

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Considering that the Peacekeeper's sole purpose is defending against Ter De, making them both stronger is a little silly.
why? If you want ter de to do better u make them stronger, if you want pk to be better vs ter de you make them stronger, that way pk gets stronger, and ter de get stronger against all other ships, that shouldn't be to hard for u to realize.
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Unread 8 May 2013, 17:19   #48
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Re: Round 52 stats

You'd think so!

(Anyway, I don't think Ter De needs a boost if Co is getting nerfed.)
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Unread 8 May 2013, 23:27   #49
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Re: Round 52 stats

who is makeing the stats, and who have the finnal word ?
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Unread 8 May 2013, 23:29   #50
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Re: Round 52 stats

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who is makeing the stats, and who have the finnal word ?
I think that's going to be me this time. x2
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