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Unread 13 Oct 2007, 18:16   #1
hairypalms
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New-Race

hello fellow PA players i recently had an idea for a new race and have discussed with others already with no real result so i have posted here.

Race Name: 1. Amazons. or 2. Feminai

Race Special Ability: Ability to change to initative of enemy/allied ships By +1/-1

Stats example: angelfire.com/tony-montana69/PA.proto-stats NOTE this url only opens for me in Ie explorer

About the Race: A purely female race who's only Goal is to enslave man and destroy all things created by man on their mission to dominate the universe


upto now ive had good and bad feedback on this and i think the main objective is to make the race more balanced as they seem more supportive than offensive or changed too supportive an unbalanced so if anyone has any ideas or views about the race plz post also post if you think this is a good or bad idea. i know the ladies out there would probably be in favour of a female race that potentialy is more deadly than the male.

Thnx for reading much love: hairypalms

Last edited by hairypalms; 14 Oct 2007 at 16:23.
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Unread 13 Oct 2007, 18:42   #2
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Re: New-Race

Sounds like a good way to wreak havoc to stats... Would the mere presence of an Amazon fleet change the initiative of the other fleets of the same alignment, or do they have to like fire on other ships to make them fire faster?

As it's described in your stats it would mean that their mere presence would change initiative. Good way to make sure this race is present in all battles, on both sides, I guess...
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Unread 13 Oct 2007, 22:31   #3
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Re: New-Race

Would the mere presence of an Amazon fleet change the initiative of the other fleets of the same alignment, or do they have to like fire on other ships to make them fire faster?

the effect is the result of the Pods initative and the mere presence hasnt any effect as this would change the battle completely by sending just 1 pod

this effect takes place for both allied ships and enemy Rasing an enemy's initative and lowering and allied, this will be allways by +1/-1

ive also toyed with the idea of having only certain class ships targeted by tihs
Example: FI CO or DE FR or any other scenario u want to adjust to

Last edited by hairypalms; 14 Oct 2007 at 01:49.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 02:59   #4
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Re: New-Race

The idea of an Amazon race is ok, but the initiative modificator is just a bad excuse to create a new race. Follow your original idea, and why not creating a race that would have an impact on the target planet (other than by stealing pods and destroying ships). You write about enslaving men, so why not having a ship that would steal population ?
- On attack it would lower the target's population settings
- On defense it would steal ships crew (delaying the return of the attack fleet by x ticks the time they reorganize).
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 03:58   #5
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Re: New-Race

im not sure that the ability to lower a targets population upon landing would gain the attacker any advantage correct me if im wrong?

but the eta concept interests me
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 09:37   #6
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
im not sure that the ability to lower a targets population upon landing would gain the attacker any advantage correct me if im wrong?

but the eta concept interests me
Nowadays it seems messing up with other peoples game is a way to play (cov opers, def whores...) so i guess being able to lower the various bonuses of a population can appeal to some players.
Ofc if you steal some population, it should make yours stronger and increase your own bonuses.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 11:38   #7
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Re: New-Race

Do we really need yet another race, and make it even harder to create a set of balanced stats? No.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 12:43   #8
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Do we really need yet another race, and make it even harder to create a set of balanced stats? No.
A sixth race might actually make it easier to balance the distribution of pods amongst all the classes, though. However generally, yes: the more ships = the harder to balance (well).


Also, i am against the idea of altering initiative. Regardless of what does it, leave initiative alone, because it stuffs with the ship stats too much.

Also, other flaws with this suggestion - ie, that the mere presence of this 6th race fleet to alter the inits thus every battle having this race present on both sides or losing - have already been identified.




I dont like it .
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 12:45   #9
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Re: New-Race

you mean like the balanced stats this round? lol have you ever thought that the stats can neva truely be balanced on a odd number of races as each race needs a counter race.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 13:21   #10
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Re: New-Race

Well I love the idea of a female race, and I am sure there are alot of other women out there that would like it also. PA has always been a mostly male dominated game, this may encourage more women to play.
I say test some stats and lets see if it works
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 13:46   #11
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Re: New-Race

As Sovereign says, messing with initiative is a terrible idea. I'm not opposed to there being a female race per se, but there needs to be a decent idea behind the race as represented by its ships' abilities.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 14:45   #12
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Re: New-Race

If it is supposed to be a female race, i suggjest it has the following atributes.
They contantly spam their targets with messages from launch to landing.
If they dont succseed in getting your roids, they blow up.

And once a month they get superstrength!
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 14:59   #13
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Re: New-Race

Random ETA when launching, +300% Cost to everything.. Random wether your missions are defense or attack...fleets can change course and hit the neighbour planet instead of the original target...they got charmer units that can coerce your target to giving you their resources (like cargoships once stole res)...oh and they can give birth to a new planet which you can use for support every now & then.

Would spice the game up abit...even tho its more players we need, not more races.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 15:48   #14
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Re: New-Race

how about the ability: when landing on a target the race gains -1 tick on research and -1 tick to construction and also steals that ticks worh of resources
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 16:05   #15
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Re: New-Race

When they attack your planet, and if they get some (roids), they might build a new planet that you have to pay all expences for.

Shiny new ships, additions to to the planet (structures) and everything else they see fit.

This is a compulsory payment, if you dont pay once every 31hours your planet will be sendt into forclosure!
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 16:16   #16
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Re: New-Race

ok we get the picture ur sexist, we dont need to know this so unless u have something creative and non sexist to say i prolly wudnt bother.

although i did find myself giggle a little
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 20:22   #17
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Re: New-Race

ok it seems that the race abilty of changing initative is a little too hard and unbalanced but there is much talk of bringing back the cargo ships well instead how about a single race with cargo type ships rather than all races as a race special ability.

in my opinion there is also the need for another race to counter the odd number of existing races as we know due to this ETD seemed to have pulled the short straw this round.

its also known that COV OPS are becoming a pain in the ass for many and a person can be COV OPED many times in a single tick the new race i have constructed would also solve this problem and could solve some of the COV OPING unfairness

New stats for oposed Race: angelfire.com/tony-montana69/PA.amazon-stats.html NOTE: now works in all browsers

much love: hairypalms

Last edited by hairypalms; 14 Oct 2007 at 20:37.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 21:03   #18
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
you mean like the balanced stats this round? lol have you ever thought that the stats can neva truely be balanced on a odd number of races as each race needs a counter race.
Er what? No, I have 'neva' thought that, simply because it's bollocks. And are you trying to use the argument "because this round had more than 4 races it was unbalanced, I want to add another race"?
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 21:24   #19
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Re: New-Race

No not at all im merely pointing out that this race revised with the COV OP ability would answer some needs + in my opinion each race needs a counter race to balance the stats even further this cannot be done with an odd race ammount

also i think a COV OP female race would be awsome

angelfire.com/tony-montana69/PA.amazon-stats.html
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 21:34   #20
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
No not at all im merely pointing out that this race revised with the COV OP ability would answer some needs
Which? Name me at least 2 that aren't already answered by Dictatorship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
each race needs a counter race
You're wrong.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 22:27   #21
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Re: New-Race

Actually, I quite like the idea of attacking ships stealing that tick of resources. If you're the only attacking fleet, you take 100% of that tick's resources. If not, your fleet takes a % of that tick's resources according to its % of the overall attacking value present.


However, there would need to be some limit depending on the number of losses you take. I'm tempted to relate this to the number of roids you cap (e.g. if you take 25% cap, you take 100% resources; if you take 20% cap, you take 80% resources). This would, however, punish escorting - should we do that or not?
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 22:36   #22
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Re: New-Race

(This would, however, punish escorting) <--- u mean u actualy support escorting? u know this is against the game rules or have i perceived ur comment wrong?

however i agree on the % idea on multiple incs same basis as roids capped
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 22:51   #23
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Re: New-Race

Escorting isn't actually illegal, unless the planet in question is acting as a support planet.
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Unread 14 Oct 2007, 23:36   #24
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Re: New-Race

i think the rules on escorting is very unclear once or twice is ok more than that in a time period is considered support or if your in the same alliance as the planet your escorting

however i dont think the race wud have any need for support
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Unread 16 Oct 2007, 02:00   #25
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Re: New-Race

The Amazon race is starting to get a nice shape:
Basically the Amazon raid planets for gold and men
stealing resources in addition to roids sounds a good one.
Now if they steal men, how could it impact on a planet ?
your answer is : losing 1 tick in research and construction... why not, but i think the loss should be linked to the percentage of population stolen.
Therefore I suggest that both the resource stealer and the population stealer are separate ships (not pods). Amazons have pods, cargo ships and slave ships.
The Amazon race would be the only one actually LANDING on a enemy (the others fight in orbit). That's why I suggest that their structure killer is in the class of one of their pods.

Because of that, they could have an additional trait: dread.
With fear in their minds the enemies would concentrate on defense and lose efficiency in firing:
The armour of their ships would gain 5%, but their weapons would lose the same amount...
Another way to implement fear would be that all population bonuses are set to 0 when a hostile Amazon fleet approach their planet (eta4 and lower).

Chariot FI > FR
Screamer FI > CO
Sarmatian CO > FI
Boadicea CO > CR
Heart DE > BS
Dreamer CR > FR
Vixen BS > DE


Feeder FI > Roids
Gold Digger CR > Res
Castrator CR > Male Pop
Denial CR > Struct
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Unread 16 Oct 2007, 13:26   #26
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Re: New-Race

i tottaly agree with the exeptions of....

Q1. losing 1 tick in research and construction... why not, but i think the loss should be linked to the percentage of population stolen.

A1. this would mean that cons and reseaches could be set back more than 1 tick and this would be very unfair

Q2. Because of that, they could have an additional trait: dread.
With fear in their minds the enemies would concentrate on defense and lose efficiency in firing:
The armour of their ships would gain 5%, but their weapons would lose the same amount...
Another way to implement fear would be that all population bonuses are set to 0 when a hostile Amazon fleet approach their planet (eta4 and lower).

A2. this would very on off the ability must either be there or it isnt and another ability would just be too much and this ability is effectivly just as unbalanced as init changing

Q3. Chariot FI > FR
Screamer FI > CO
Sarmatian CO > FI
Boadicea CO > CR
Heart DE > BS
Dreamer CR > FR
Vixen BS > DE


Feeder FI > Roids
Gold Digger CR > Res
Castrator CR > Male Pop
Denial CR > Struct

A3. this would mean having 1 attack fleet can a race really only have 1 attack fleet?
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Unread 16 Oct 2007, 21:11   #27
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Re: New-Race

I didn't actually agree with the 'kill population' attribute, I'd want someone experienced with the game to explain its effect to me before I back it.


Also, you really should try balancing these 'stats' against the other races

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
Because of that, they could have an additional trait: dread.
With fear in their minds the enemies would concentrate on defense and lose efficiency in firing:
The armour of their ships would gain 5%, but their weapons would lose the same amount...
Another way to implement fear would be that all population bonuses are set to 0 when a hostile Amazon fleet approach their planet (eta4 and lower).
Don't be silly. What is this supposed to be, Makhil's Gimmick Race? We've found a good attribute (steal resources), you don't see any other race with more than one do you?
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Unread 16 Oct 2007, 22:34   #28
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I didn't actually agree with the 'kill population' attribute, I'd want someone experienced with the game to explain its effect to me before I back it.


Also, you really should try balancing these 'stats' against the other races



Don't be silly. What is this supposed to be, Makhil's Gimmick Race? We've found a good attribute (steal resources), you don't see any other race with more than one do you?
Yes i agree i think the ability to steal resources and set back an enemy's research and Construction by 1 tick whilst gaining yourself is enough for one race

and as for balancing the stats against the other races, theres no point atm as the stats for next round wont be the same but yes they are good to work from
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Unread 16 Oct 2007, 23:10   #29
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
and set back an enemy's research and Construction by 1 tick whilst gaining yourself
i wouldn't do this either
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Unread 16 Oct 2007, 23:47   #30
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
you don't see any other race with more than one do you?
Eitraides :\

Quote:
Originally Posted by furbeh
i wouldn't do this either
This may or may not be a problem. Say, on the tick of landing, research and construction that would have been done during that tick is lost - the storyline being that all the workers had to hide so they dont get taken by the amazons and used as sex slaves etc - then that would be prolly be fine. It means that res/con that was to finish on the combat tick would still do so, however after that will be delayed by 1 tick; its not a massive problem as there are a limited number of combat ticks that most planets endure each day. Sure, it could become annoying if you (eventually) get attacked enough to start missing ticks, but this wont happen untill (well) after the rush through protection at least anyway.

Why wouldnt you do it?
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Unread 17 Oct 2007, 00:10   #31
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Re: New-Race

Like you would hide from the chance to be a sex slave, Soveh...
I do like the idea of a res stealing ship. It has been suggested before but I'm not sure how easy it would be to add it to the combat engine.
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Unread 17 Oct 2007, 00:51   #32
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Eitraides :\
wintraides



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
This may or may not be a problem. Say, on the tick of landing, research and construction that would have been done during that tick is lost - the storyline being that all the workers had to hide so they dont get taken by the amazons and used as sex slaves etc - then that would be prolly be fine. It means that res/con that was to finish on the combat tick would still do so, however after that will be delayed by 1 tick; its not a massive problem as there are a limited number of combat ticks that most planets endure each day. Sure, it could become annoying if you (eventually) get attacked enough to start missing ticks, but this wont happen untill (well) after the rush through protection at least anyway.

Why wouldnt you do it?
Good points. I guess you could do it, I'm just a little worried about overpowering the race. How much ship value do you need to steal resources, does it need to survive, etc.
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Unread 17 Oct 2007, 01:33   #33
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
A3. this would mean having 1 attack fleet can a race really only have 1 attack fleet?
No, this would mean having 1 attack fleet to take roids and 1 attack fleet to raid a planet (resources and population).
In fact it would be the only race with 2 attack fleets (with the ziks), coz most of the time the other races specialize in 1 attack fleet.
But if you combine Cargo and Slave ships into 1 ship, you could add a CR pod if you think it's necessary (I don't).

I picked Fi and Cr for the obvious reason that atm there is only 1 race attacking with those, while there are 2 attacking with Co, Fr, De and Bs.
As mentioned before, a 6th race can be an opportunity to balance the stats and it should be used that way (Hence the Bodicea, the only ship targetting cath CR that can't be freezed by it... maybe a way to take out a little bit of the Cath power).
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Unread 17 Oct 2007, 02:19   #34
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
No, this would mean having 1 attack fleet to take roids and 1 attack fleet to raid a planet (resources and population).
Just from my experience with Cargoships in R3, generally speaking the capture of resources is not as significant when compared to asteroids.

In the past, Cargoes used to raid resources as they moved from your asteroids to your planet, thus denying resource income from the battle tick. Also recall, in R3, there were up to three battle ticks, whereas now there is only one. I imagine that players will be hard pressed to attack planets large enough (thus, having enough roids) to capture enough resources to eliminate the opportunity cost for capturing asteroids.

If you make it such that Cargoes raid stockpiled resources, then with the current production system encouraging players to "hide" their "stash" in production (even before launch), but also being able to immediately cancel an order and thus only loosing a tiny fraction (by making the due ticks overly large, which is certain to mean less loss than just letting yourself be raided by cargoes), then this doesnt "solve" the problem either.

Finally, history with ship stats would suggest that just because a race has a pod fleet, doesnt actually make it good. Consider Cathaar for most rounds prior to this one; they had a CR and a CO fleet, yet Cath CO fleets were exceptionally rare (generally because they were significantly inferior to CR fleets). Imagine being forced to only have the one pod fleet and this fleet being "shit" - with the only other alternative being to capture resources that dont actually exist. It would essentially root the race. Further, if you made this fleet automatically overpowered to compensate for the lack of choice, you get other problems with other races, and/or the amount/proportion of universal defence to that class of attacking fleet (given its OP nature) which might end up rooting the race anyway.


Thus, i dont mind having the presense of cargoes - despite the fact that having something for them to steal is a bit iffy. But definately not as a replacement to a normal pod fleet; as a supplementary fleet (like SKs are to the others) would go down fine, imo.
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Unread 17 Oct 2007, 20:11   #35
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Re: New-Race

I missed the proposal to divide up the attack fleets into resource-steal and roid fleets. I'm glad that someone spotted it, because it's rubbish.


A race should have two different attack fleets so that it can attack all other races. This is achieved through giving races partial weaknesses against most classes rather than giving them no chance against a certain class.

If you only give 6thRace one roid fleet, everyone is going to have to be vunerable against that class - which is a bad thing since it overpowers any other race with a pod of the same class.


I'd much prefer it if all ships of 6thRace were able to steal resources (hence dividing that tick's resources up by the fleet value of each fleet of 6thRace present). Of course, there probably needs to be some sort of cap on how many resources each ship can steal.


Perhaps each ship can only steal its own value in resources - a very neat way to balance it.


Also, to Sovereign: I don't want to make one ship specifically a cargoship, instead every ship of 6thRace can steal resources.
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Unread 18 Oct 2007, 13:40   #36
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Re: New-Race

i agree that all ships should act as resource stealing ship types however..
the ability cannot work on a % scale as people will just hide their resources hence rendering the ability useless,

would it not be better to have both pods differnt class which allows them to cap roids and that ticks worth of resources upon landing on the targeted planet.
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Unread 18 Oct 2007, 20:01   #37
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by hairypalms
i agree that all ships should act as resource stealing ship types however..
the ability cannot work on a % scale as people will just hide their resources hence rendering the ability useless,

would it not be better to have both pods differnt class which allows them to cap roids and that ticks worth of resources upon landing on the targeted planet.
No, the plan is to have them steal that tick's resources (intercepting the resources between the asteroids and the planet) rather than taking from the stockpile.

Also, I think the race should have the ability to take resources without sending pods.
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Unread 18 Oct 2007, 20:15   #38
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Re: New-Race

furball: Also, I think the race should have the ability to take resources without sending pods.

this would mean attackers could send only 1 ship non pod and capture a tick of resources?

but i suppose if there was implemented value of ships takes its on value of resources this would solve the problem
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Unread 18 Oct 2007, 20:21   #39
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Re: New-Race

Yeah, that was my presumption: the value of 6thRace ships present can steal that value of resources from the defending planet, up to a limit of one tick's resources for that planet.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 09:22   #40
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Re: New-Race

i've said 100 times both here in public and on private forums that if you want to make easily balanced stats, you need a number of attack fleets relative to the number of races and classes.

There are 6 classes of ship and I cannot envisage that ever changing.
There are 2 attack fleets per race.
There are currently 5 races.

5 times 2 is 10. But there's 6 classes, so there will always be 2 classes (generally fighter and cruiser class) which only have one attack fleet present.

overall, it makes it hard to balance the big picture.

Imagine now if we had 6 races, 12 attack fleets (6x2) and the 6 classes of ship.

How easy would that be to balance? Two attack fleets in EVERY class!

2 fighter fleets for example:
one can hit Ter Xan Cat
one can hit Zik Etd XXX

or

one can hit Ter Xan
one can hit Etd Cat
both can hit Zik
and neither can hit XXX

You literally spread the amounts of hits among the classes to ensure that every race can attack X number of others, and be hit by Y number. Ease of balancing - oh so easy!

Fleets can literally be tailored for this. It's so easy.

Only problem is nobody has thought of an idea for a 6th race yet (and to be fair, Etd wasn't actually that great of an idea anyway). I though I had it once with superheavy (slow init10+ ships with high armour and high damage) and superlight ships (really fast init, low damage, low armour) but nobody really got excited about it. I even made a set of working stats for it, which can be found on a private forum here if you happen to have access.

Think of a good idea for a 6th race and I guarantee stats will be able to sort themselves out!

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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 13:51   #41
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Re: New-Race

Blue moon: have you actually read the whole forum?

if so how can a race that can steal resources and have the ability to increase their enemy's research and construction time whilst lowering their own not be a good idea, in comparicment to your idea?

your idea effectively is the same as terran but only making them stronger and even more slower, im hardly supruised nobody got excited about this.

but... you do seem to know a fair bit about stats and balancing them, therefore u know that this race is not unbalanceable.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 14:13   #42
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Re: New-Race

Would this initiative bonus not just cause most big battles to end up having amazon def and amazon attackers so the initiative just balances to normal? I mean wouldn't it then help to have like 1 amazon fi sent as defense to everybody etc.? Maybe I'm wrong, it's early, but I am not turning out the idea just pointing out a potential problem. I like the chaos that the special characteristic brings to the game. Chaos = fun. Fun = good. Good = well I guess it ends there. I'm not so good with math.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 14:14   #43
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Re: New-Race

Oh and also I think resource stealing has been done. In another game perhaps? It made things pretty interesting. Good for breaking up planets that have a big stockpile. Either forces them to spend or forces them to lose a certain %.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 14:25   #44
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Re: New-Race

No, and you're an idiot for thinking that.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 14:28   #45
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Re: New-Race

[ND]balor: the initative changing concept was scraped along time ago, this is what i mean about people actually reading the forum properly.
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 17:14   #46
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Re: New-Race

there's such a thing as 'editing' posts.
maybe if he's getting posts like that he should consider putting an update on his original post?

still dont like the idea of stealing tech points etc... because it just seems like zik on speed. but i can see how it could potentially work.

still, i stand by the argument that we need 6 races, or some way to evenly distribute them among the classes - so if it works, more power to you! :-)
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 00:11   #47
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Re: New-Race

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Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
there's such a thing as 'editing' posts.
maybe if he's getting posts like that he should consider putting an update on his original post?
No, read the damn thread. Once there's been 40 posts in a thread, you can't assume that the OP is still relevant.
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 02:30   #48
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Re: New-Race

I think a race with Cargo ships could work, but the cargo stealing only a tick resource on its target is too limited. I suggest the Cargo ships allow that race to steal some salvage during battles.
- in defense they get their normal share + x% stolen from the other players shares.
- in attack they steal a percentage of the defense salvage
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 03:21   #49
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Re: New-Race

I did read the posts, it was just my first time reading it, so I wanted to get my 2 cents in (often considered irrelevant) on the eta thing just to make sure I understood why it was an interesting idea but not a necessarily plausible thing.
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Unread 23 Oct 2007, 23:38   #50
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Re: New-Race

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I think a race with Cargo ships could work, but the cargo stealing only a tick resource on its target is too limited. I suggest the Cargo ships allow that race to steal some salvage during battles.
- in defense they get their normal share + x% stolen from the other players shares.
- in attack they steal a percentage of the defense salvage
Look, I've explained every step of the way why I wouldn't go for cargo ships. You're making this bloody frustrating.


A new race should have attributes that apply to all of the ships, not just to one specific ship. Take, for example, Xan's cloaking or Cathaar's EMP abilities. Further, if only one ship (your cargo ship) can steal resources, then your resource-stealing ability is restricted to a single ship-class. Since one race is usually very strong against at least one class of ship, that'd make it very difficult to steal resources from that race. Obviously this is a bad thing.

I also don't like the idea of salvage stealing. Why should stealing resources be dependant on other ships dying? If a 6thRace fleet lands on a planet that runs its ships, why shouldn't they take some resources anyway?

The limit to a single tick's resources (which is also handy for storyline reasons) is because this will stop the ability from being too powerful. If you allowed 6thRace to steal from stockpiles then you'd see inactive noobs getting bashed to cap their stockpiles - I'm sure even you realise that this would be a bad thing.
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