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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 07:00   #1
Hude
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Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Atm you either cap first or last if you land your attack the same tick as someone lands on you, depending on your user id and if your planet ticks first or not.

Fix this by storing the stolen roids in a temp field until the end of tick and then add those roids after all combats have been fought. This way your newly stolen roids aren't part of the cap the other guy gets.

When I first asked about this on #support Remy agreed with me that its easy to fix. Second time I asked Cin told me "This is something we won't fix" and the arguments for this were to reward signing up early and to add tactical option for gambling to lose or gain roids. I don't see why signing up early should be rewarded nor how this really adds any tactics.
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 07:53   #2
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

agreed
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 11:19   #3
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Yes.
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 11:20   #4
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Cin would know more than Remy about this, but I still think energy spent on this would have been better than some of the features we've seen added lately.

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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 11:48   #5
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

I would guess that part of the reason its done like it currently is due to the fact the tick length would increase if it was done like suggested. The reason for that would be you would have to loop through all the planets again and run two extras calculations not to mention multiple extra database writes.

After all as you loop through the planets for battle reports you would have to write one db record for roids lost for anyone being attacked and upto 3 roids gained records for anyone attacking. Then when these have been worked out and written you would then need to loop through the planets again, deduct all the roids lost before adding all the roids gained.

Now while the tick takes around 4 mins now to fully complete and that isn't that high compared to the past so another minute or so wouldn't be an major problem it would be a slight annoyance and should the number of players increase it could be a problem.
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 12:07   #6
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

I have to admit that this bug/feature has annoyed me quite a bit in the past.

Also, why does nearly the entire game lock down for the duration of the tick?
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 13:37   #7
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

I think when the game ticks, the time until it finishes ticking should be decreased dramatically, like 1min... thats annoying to wait for especially if ya wanna leave straight after tick but its not too long you cant offord to wait, it seems a resnoble request, i think this issue should be dealt with before the IDs tbh
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 14:15   #8
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
Also, why does nearly the entire game lock down for the duration of the tick?
It is to prevent abuse of the ticking mechanism. Before, people could have effectively lowered their value permanently by hiding things in production, canceling the production, and reinstating it. This would make the production "never tick" but would always "tick" the value so that it never takes into account the amount of resources you briefly have stacked. This is a nonissue now though, as you can just stack things in the production anyways. I'm sure there's been all sorts of other ticker-related hassle with productions, covert operations, and such behaving a way not intended. This all has been avoided with locking down things for the duration of the tick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA
thats annoying to wait for especially if ya wanna leave straight after tick but its not too long you cant offord to wait, it seems a resnoble request, i think this issue should be dealt with before the IDs tbh
If you want to leave straight after the tick, plan your schedule so that you want to leave at XX:05. By then it has ticked. Even hours is as good as any hours. Imagine if they changed the game to tick every 00:15 instead, would you still be tormented about wanting to leave straight after tick and the ticker taking two three minutes to finish?
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 15:24   #9
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
I would guess that part of the reason its done like it currently is due to the fact the tick length would increase if it was done like suggested. The reason for that would be you would have to loop through all the planets again and run two extras calculations not to mention multiple extra database writes.
Duh, updating the roids after all the battles can be done in a single SQL query. If there was 1000 battles, it affects 1000 rows. That should be executed in a fraction of second.
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 15:30   #10
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
It is to prevent abuse of the ticking mechanism. Before, people could have effectively lowered their value permanently by hiding things in production, canceling the production, and reinstating it. This would make the production "never tick" but would always "tick" the value so that it never takes into account the amount of resources you briefly have stacked. This is a nonissue now though, as you can just stack things in the production anyways. I'm sure there's been all sorts of other ticker-related hassle with productions, covert operations, and such behaving a way not intended. This all has been avoided with locking down things for the duration of the tick.
I wasn't really asking a simple question, it was a question about why the game doesn't support it yet. Transactions have been available in databases for years, the ticker and the game should be able to cope with players taking actions at the same time.

PAX has been around for 3.5 years, yet instead of improving the situation the solution is just to restrict all planets.
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 15:51   #11
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Duh, updating the roids after all the battles can be done in a single SQL query. If there was 1000 battles, it affects 1000 rows. That should be executed in a fraction of second.
Ok, maybe I over simplified a bit but here's how I would do it:

- Create a temporary table with target and attacker coords and roids captured.
- At the beginning of the tick reset temporary table.
- In the battle engine, instead of updating target and attacker roids, store the coords and captured roids in temporary table.
- After battles, update target and attacker roids with a query from temporary table, no looping involved.

I wanted to add a sarcastic remark about the performance here but I'll behave myself.
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Unread 29 Aug 2007, 01:21   #12
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

If there is an easy fix it should definitely be done. The idea of "rewarding" early sign ups is just an excuse, and quite a bad one...
The main problem I have with the 4 minutes delay is that when you take some actions (building, research, fleet launch...) the text warning that the action wasn't completed is not consistent: sometimes it's big red letters, sometimes it's small white letters...
We could have:
- green bold letters to confirm the action is validated
- red bold letters to warn it wasn't

the same, simple text could be used on all actions:
- "Your order has been executed"
- "No action taken, plz retry after the tick"
or you could customize it depending on the government chosen
- "Mister President..." (Democracy)
- "My Lord..." (Feudalism)
- "Comrade... " (Unification)
- "Beloved Leader..." (Dictatorship)
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Unread 29 Aug 2007, 02:28   #13
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

4 minutes seems a bit slow? I can understand ticks involving more battles taking up to this length of time, but more simple ticks should be quite fast.

As Hude says, large parts of the game should involve single queries to perform their actions. At the moment it appears that every single planet is looped through with actions being taken planet by planet.

The warning shouldn't appear with every case anyway. You should be able to move fleets if they aren't in combat, or if your planet isn't under attack.
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Unread 29 Aug 2007, 12:32   #14
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Duh, updating the roids after all the battles can be done in a single SQL query. If there was 1000 battles, it affects 1000 rows. That should be executed in a fraction of second.
You'd think more of the PA code was like this, but it's not
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Unread 29 Aug 2007, 14:12   #15
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
I wasn't really asking a simple question, it was a question about why the game doesn't support it yet.
You didn't read between the lines that locking things up for while it ticks was probably the "easy way out". If you're good with database transactions, or your talent lies at improving code, I'd definately (for my part) welcome you to fix and code the game code. I don't think there would be many people against you or anyone else able and willing sacrificing their free time for no payment whatsoever to work on the code of the game.

Quote:
4 minutes seems a bit slow? I can understand ticks involving more battles taking up to this length of time, but more simple ticks should be quite fast.
Yeah, 4 minutes is a little slow. Even with a large database, I can't force Eviews or SPSS run a table for more than a minute. And those are large amounts of data in compared to what a 3000 ident universe can contain. The answer is the same as to the request above.

On the other thread, they were wondering why there's been so little changes in the Planetarion game mechanics of late years.

The answer has been told over and over again, and it's the same answer than to the question why PAN never happened round 17. And why the fabled passport system still isn't in place. Because there's not enough volunteers to run it. It's a small miracle someone actually administers the game on the level it's currently rolling on.
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Unread 30 Aug 2007, 06:18   #16
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

i actually like it how it is, at least it has some sort of order to it. iirc it used to just randomly decide.

for those of you trying to get it changed, why don't you just suggest that the roids you cap stay with your fleet until they get home (no mining incoming until fleet is back)?
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Unread 30 Aug 2007, 07:04   #17
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Zaejii, my suggestion doesn't make it random, you just can't lose the roids you just capped. I find the current order to be pretty much random cause you most likely don't know if you'll tick first or not.

Planet A has 400 roids, planet B has 800 roids, they both land on each other at same time.

Currently if planet A ticks first, he ends up with 525 while planet B ends up with 675 OR
if planet B ticks first, planet A ends up with 450 and planet B with 750 roids.

With the suggestion planet A loses 100 roids and gains 200 roids, planet B loses 200 and gains 100. In every case planet A ends up with 500 roids, planet B with 700.

Pretty obvious which option is more fair.
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Unread 30 Aug 2007, 20:19   #18
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
i actually like it how it is, at least it has some sort of order to it. iirc it used to just randomly decide.

for those of you trying to get it changed, why don't you just suggest that the roids you cap stay with your fleet until they get home (no mining incoming until fleet is back)?
I would suggest this is the best option and makes more sence in a physical world as the roids don't magically transport. Whatever happens I am against the current unfair system.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 00:26   #19
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Zaejii, my suggestion doesn't make it random, you just can't lose the roids you just capped. I find the current order to be pretty much random cause you most likely don't know if you'll tick first or not.
For the few times this actually happens during the round, and u care enough about it to wonder who'll tick first, you can find out pretty easy. Just look during the tick which fleet ticks first (eta -1). Your attackfleets eta goes down at the moment your target ticks, the eta of the fleet attacking you goes down when your planet ticks.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 03:02   #20
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

You miss the point. The issue is not with not being able to find out who ticks first, it's that it can have a fairly large effect on the number of roids either side ends up with, and the "fairness" of it, for lack of a better word.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 03:31   #21
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You miss the point. The issue is not with not being able to find out who ticks first, it's that it can have a fairly large effect on the number of roids either side ends up with, and the "fairness" of it, for lack of a better word.
No, i didnt miss the point, i just dont think its all that important since it happens only a few times per round.. Also, i dont wanna change 101 things, i'm just trying to take advantage of the known "issues"
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 03:55   #22
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Is this thread the result of signing up late and ending up with a high user ID?
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 08:12   #23
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travler
Is this thread the result of signing up late and ending up with a high user ID?
I could as well claim that people opposing this signed up early and don't want it changed. The issue dates way back before sign ups. This thread is the result of pa team being unresponsive and not feeling the need to back up their arguments to not fix the issue.

As already said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The issue is not with not being able to find out who ticks first, it's that it can have a fairly large effect on the number of roids either side ends up with, and the "fairness" of it, for lack of a better word.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 09:17   #24
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

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Also, i dont wanna change 101 things, i'm just trying to take advantage of the known "issues"
It's a "feature".
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 10:18   #25
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Given that relatively simple solutions have been proposed to solve this, I can see no reason why they can't be implemented.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 10:49   #26
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

There is the relative difficulty discussed on the other thread you've noticed and on a number of other threads through the rounds. Writing the manual is a fairly simple a thing to do. It's the first thing a newbie will likely grasp if he's having a question. Yet, it's constantly out of date, incorrect, and poor, even if there's a relatively large number of people working on it.

The difficulty may not be coming up with a solution to a problem, but making the solution actually happen. I think it has to do with the volunteer work bit.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 12:00   #27
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

the problem is that there's not a relatively large group of people working on it.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 12:32   #28
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Yeah. I'm not sure if there's anyone else than Appocomaster and Cin working on the game code itself - or if there's ever really been during the recent years. Maybe Hude should lend his skills and code the thing.
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Unread 31 Aug 2007, 12:35   #29
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

lol i had no idea that signing up early came with such a bonus, i'll remember to sign up right away next round
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Unread 2 Sep 2007, 14:21   #30
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Wasn't it suggested (can't find it anywhere, sorry) that the roids you gain on a landing would come back with your ships? It would make sense anyhow, as I don't see well how the rocks fly back to your planet instantly after roiding while the ships have to travel for nearly half a day!
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Unread 2 Sep 2007, 14:29   #31
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyVince
Wasn't it suggested (can't find it anywhere, sorry) that the roids you gain on a landing would come back with your ships? It would make sense anyhow, as I don't see well how the rocks fly back to your planet instantly after roiding while the ships have to travel for nearly half a day!
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Unread 2 Sep 2007, 15:48   #32
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

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lol i had no idea that signing up early came with such a bonus, i'll remember to sign up right away next round
See? That's the spirit!

Problem solved
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Unread 3 Sep 2007, 11:31   #33
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Re: Fix the roiding to be independant of user id

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Originally Posted by wakey
I would guess that part of the reason its done like it currently is due to the fact the tick length would increase if it was done like suggested. The reason for that would be you would have to loop through all the planets again and run two extras calculations not to mention multiple extra database writes.

After all as you loop through the planets for battle reports you would have to write one db record for roids lost for anyone being attacked and upto 3 roids gained records for anyone attacking. Then when these have been worked out and written you would then need to loop through the planets again, deduct all the roids lost before adding all the roids gained.

Now while the tick takes around 4 mins now to fully complete and that isn't that high compared to the past so another minute or so wouldn't be an major problem it would be a slight annoyance and should the number of players increase it could be a problem.
Actually, the tick length would not be that much longer, i think its measured in seconds (form what i have seen in the code). And the tick doesnt last 4 minutes, its (atm) not even 1 minute
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