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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 09:50   #1
Game^
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Round 23 Ship Stats

Hi all, as you may or may not be aware I've been developing a set of statistics for next round with the help of Keizari (I'm sure he will give feedback at some point) and toot. I basically feel the stats are nearly at the finished point, and I basically want some feedback on them. The feedback I want is two fold, firstly what race you would play and how you would play it, and then also any changes you would make and why you would make them.

The stats are available here on an excel spreadsheet for download, most of the emp eff's are on the next sheet, however a couple are missing where the class of the ship was changed recently and I didn’t alter their class for emp eff.

Suggested Ship Stats

Ill just simply now outline the principles of the ship stats.

Basically every race shouldn't be able to roid itself, with the one exception to this being Zik roiding Zik with FR ships (Zik is a 'special' case, and if you cant understand the reasons for this leave the thread now).

The idea of the stats was to make it a difficult choice on which race to pick, and to hopefully make it so that each race had 2 effective pod classes.

In the spreadsheet a table for each race shows each single class attack fleet and what races it could roid, an '*' by the race mean's that attack fleet must go against an attack class of that race in order to roid it. We then also have basically the same thing but in reverse, with the table underneath showing what class’s roid the race, and whether these classes are against ships that are off attack classes (easy) or ships that are attack class (flak). There is then an overall table to show the bigger picture of the entire situation.

Cheers

Last edited by Game^; 14 Aug 2007 at 12:10.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:07   #2
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
Hi all, as you may or may not be aware I've been developing a set of statistics for next round with the help of Kiezari (I'm sure he will give feedback at some point) and toot. I basically feel the stats are nearly at the finished point, and I basically want some feedback on them. The feedback I want is two fold, firstly what race you would play and how you would play it, and then also any changes you would make and why you would make them.

The stats are available here on an excel spreadsheet for download, most of the emp eff's are on the next sheet, however a couple are missing where the class of the ship was changed recently and I didn’t alter their class for emp eff.

Suggested Ship Stats

Ill just simply now outline the principles of the ship stats.

Basically every race shouldn't be able to roid itself, with the one exception to this being Zik roiding Zik with FR ships (Zik is a 'special' case, and if you cant understand the reasons for this leave the thread now).



The idea of the stats was to make it a difficult choice on which race to pick, and to hopefully make it so that each race had 2 effective pod classes.

In the spreadsheet a table for each race shows each single class attack fleet and what races it could roid, an '*' by the race mean's that attack fleet must go against an attack class of that race in order to roid it. We then also have basically the same thing but in reverse, with the table underneath showing what class’s roid the race, and whether these classes are against ships that are off attack classes (easy) or ships that are attack class (flak). There is then an overall table to show the bigger picture of the entire situation.

Cheers
Hi, and thanks for an informative start on the stats suggestions, may I enquire as to what you are doing towards defence capabilities, with you saying that both attackfleets for each race is able to roid I see pain in the defencedepartment. And also, could you outline the changes from last rounds stats as that is almost more important.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:17   #3
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Hi, and thanks for an informative start on the stats suggestions, may I enquire as to what you are doing towards defence capabilities, with you saying that both attackfleets for each race is able to roid I see pain in the defencedepartment. And also, could you outline the changes from last rounds stats as that is almost more important.
I presume you don’t understand what I meant?

I didn't mean each race class can roid every race, I meant each class could be used well to roid.

As regards the defensive problems, each race has to only build 2 ships that are off attack class ships which should help a great deal (etd 3, but they combine FR ships against EMP, so it's really 1). The emphasis again though is placed upon planets needing to cross defend each other, meaning those that use fleet more efficiently will be the ones that have success.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:35   #4
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Phoenix -> fi class ship
Drake -> bs targetting
Pegasus and banshee now fire same eta.
Black widow -> co class ship, now fires normal.
Bomber now fires before nightmare.
Merchant -> fi class ship
Tycoon -> cr targetting, fires after investors.

Syren, ghost and ranger removed from stats.

(Highlighting what changed in the a/c d/cs and how would be helpful game!)
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 10:44   #5
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Phoenix -> fi class ship
Drake -> bs targetting
Pegasus and banshee now fire same eta.
Black widow -> co class ship, now fires normal.
Bomber now fires before nightmare.
Merchant -> fi class ship
Tycoon -> cr targetting, fires after investors.

Syren, ghost and ranger removed from stats.

(Highlighting what changed in the a/c d/cs and how would be helpful game!)
Hey man, I've done most of the work in terms of analysis for these people as it is.

If a change log for AC's / DC's is needed ill knock it up tonight when I get home.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:13   #6
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I really really really dont see why banshees and pegs should fire at the same initiative. Its utter ludicrus.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:19   #7
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I really really really dont see why banshees and pegs should fire at the same initiative. Its utter ludicrus.
And why do you think Terran have struggled so much over the previous rounds?

Try talking to someone playing Terran, and ask them how they felt about Xan FI at the start...
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:19   #8
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

A quick perspective. Cath look about right. Zero-loss def versus 3 attack fleets and any cath who roids another cath with co is insane. Two more attack fleets targetted by your own attack fleets. This leaves cr, you can't lose ships defending as it's versus emp, and fi and de. This is reasonable enough.

Terran look stronger (so you probably want to watch their a/cs). Cath co/cr won't find it easy to hit terran, they're very unlikely to hit themselves, mares+wraiths are a possibility, slightly more difficult for zik fr now but that'll probably be the main threat again, etd are a possiblity but it's emp again.

Xan will probably fi rush but they'll take a sick amount of damage with emp+kill def. That said fi has some natural advantages which offset this but I'd probably tweak up their emp resistance or their d/cs for the phantom and banshee which fire same init as their respective anti-ships. Their fr looks good versus zik and etd but zik will steal a bit to off-set it and they have two respectable def ships with 2 ticks to get there in the harpy and the bomber.

Zik are always strong these days because their a/c d/cs are so high. You can feed off terrans with your fr or de's a possible versus cath or etd. However you're probably not going to be able to do both which could leave some defensive holes in your fleet. That said your fleet teams up really nicely with whatever you steal. Some might say that's going to over emphasise the role of luck in playing zik but to be honest it's far more about activity and getting your fleet out there often enough.

I think etd might be slightly weak. Their brokers don't look that strong versus terran and zik de. and that's a lot of anti-bs in the de class plus flak flying around. Their co fleet is weaker than the cath one overall, the mare firing first is much worse than just emping when you're attacking. They'll feed off xans at a sick rate with their bs. Their defensive options aren't bad, flakked with the fr, an anti-bs that nothing fires first against, and anti everything else in their attack fleets. I'd try to give them a slightly better offensive edge.

With the large number of ships which fire on the same eta, peg banshee, merchant vendor, widow widow, drake wyvern you're going to see a lot of people willing to play chicken with much bigger planets for the xp. Accordingly, while allowing this to remain a valid option, I'd also bump up salvage a bit for everyone. I think these are decent stats, every attack fleet does look capable so you're going to see lot of variation and different options next round I think. My concern, similar to game, is with etd and how capable they'll be of gathering roids.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:36   #9
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think etd might be slightly weak. Their brokers don't look that strong versus terran and zik de. and that's a lot of anti-bs in the de class plus flak flying around. Their co fleet is weaker than the cath one overall, the mare firing first is much worse than just emping when you're attacking. They'll feed off xans at a sick rate with their bs.
I don't actually think they will feed off Xan's so easily, now that Xans dont have to also dump alot into bomber as well. Also there will be extra DE class ships available, which may help towards this.

Quote:
Their defensive options aren't bad, flakked with the fr, an anti-bs that nothing fires first against, and anti everything else in their attack fleets. I'd try to give them a slightly better offensive edge.
Yep, I may lower the emp res of the terran DE ships a little, to give them the possibility of roiding them too.

Quote:
With the large number of ships which fire on the same eta, peg banshee, merchant vendor, widow widow, drake wyvern you're going to see a lot of people willing to play chicken with much bigger planets for the xp. Accordingly, while allowing this to remain a valid option, I'd also bump up salvage a bit for everyone. I think these are decent stats, every attack fleet does look capable so you're going to see lot of variation and different options next round I think. My concern, similar to game, is with etd and how capable they'll be of gathering roids.
I agree there will be a greater increase in chicken, but as you say, its mainly because of XP, and XP is only gained from hitting planets bigger than you, which surely isnt a bad thing?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:42   #10
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
And why do you think Terran have struggled so much over the previous rounds?

Try talking to someone playing Terran, and ask them how they felt about Xan FI at the start...

Erm and by weakening the xan who is allready getting raped by both CR and BS is the solution to fix the terran problem?

Yeah, great idea.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 11:59   #11
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Erm and by weakening the xan who is allready getting raped by both CR and BS is the solution to fix the terran problem?

Yeah, great idea.
Raped by CR?

FR is a very efficient attack fleet, and thus by nature should go along way to covering any CR incoming.

If you ACTUALLY took the time to look at the stats as well, you would see that Xan's only real hole not covered by attack ships is BS, and so if xans are clever they will build alot more of the UPGRADED Spectre to combat this.

If you don't have anything to add to a discussion, with actual points and possible solutions just don't post at all. Creating posts to state "issues" in a cryptic way which just simply demonstrates the fact you haven't really looked at the stats just further demonstrates the useless way in which you are posting.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:01   #12
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Could only be uploaded as .xls?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game
Hi all, as you may or may not be aware I've been developing a set of statistics for next round with the help of Kiezari (I'm sure he will give feedback at some point) and toot
It's Keizari dude. And, while I'm home I'm busy playing the other game, and while I'm at work I can't open your shady .xls uploads.



pps. I always give feedback, but what I originally stated still remains at large - I'm not too fond of the original design architechture, so don't expect me to lighten up about it and participate too actively as the other thing's too attractive for that at the moment.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:18   #13
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Could only be uploaded as .xls?



It's Keizari dude. And, while I'm home I'm busy playing the other game, and while I'm at work I can't open your shady .xls uploads.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:22   #14
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

from the cath point of view these stats look good

Spiders are still the weakest anti de ship, now there emp power is even weaker than the broker so building spiders is useless unless you got alot of banshees dedicated to you
But every race needs one or two weak spots, so i think it's ok that Cath are simply farmed by De

The BW as co that targets co
so the BW takes over the role of the phoenix and it's an attack ships
maybe the cath Co fleet is even a little bit to strong now but i can live with that


Scarabs as our only Fr will be only useful if you've chimeras, shadows or dealers to to team up with so many cath won't build many of these

Never change a winning team is the slogan of the Cr fleet, neither the cath cr nor the cr targeting ships were changed. Cath Cr wasn't overpowered nor to weak so everything is fine here.

With the loss of the ranger and the Tycoon targeting Cr now, the scorpion is the single best anti BS ship available, there is more or less no real way to stop scorpions.
Maybe the scorpion should fire after the investor to give Etd just a little chance against scorpions to counter all those drakes, spectres and pirates.

So just set scorpion init from 9 to 10 and maybe the tycoon from 10 to 11.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:24   #15
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Well these stats sure looks a bit better than the last couple of rounds' stats, Ill have to look at them more closely though before giving much in the way of constructive feedback. Cath sure looks a lot better though
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:26   #16
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Oh and i do agree with bedda about the investor\scorpion

edit: seems the investor is now a stealship, that changes some i guess
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:53   #17
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game
I don't actually think they will feed off Xan's so easily, now that Xans dont have to also dump alot into bomber as well. Also there will be extra DE class ships available, which may help towards this.
Ah, not so easily but that'll be their best target so they'll attack them constantly. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing but the lack of other options does worry me.

Quote:
I agree there will be a greater increase in chicken, but as you say, its mainly because of XP, and XP is only gained from hitting planets bigger than you, which surely isnt a bad thing?
I'm not saying it's a bad thing but having people crash into your fleet for large xp gains when you can really do nothing about it isn't great. Remember all the attacker needs to do is hit a score gain and it's realistic he can land. The least you can do for the defender is give him a bit of extra salvage, christ knows he doesn't even get the xp for defending with his own fleet anymore.

The investor being a steal-ship isn't huge really. Dragons will muller them first so it's not exactly the ranger of previous rounds. You might cap scorps off a cathaar through faking your cr as bs but this is just going to be good play really.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 12:57   #18
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
firstly what race you would play and how you would play it...
I would go cathaar. A large corvette fleet coupled with scarabs, spiders, and scorpions for defensive measures. I'd probably ignore cruisers at large. Sounds a little eccentric, but avoids the stackability problems of tarantula and scorpion, and gives a very strong barrier against both xandathrii fleets, and helps against the zikonian one too. Battleships are zerolossed, so there's no need to worry about them. Scarabs are also strong enough to discourage some cruiser incomings, but the destroyers will be the hard part. There's good room to hit xandathrii and eitrades, and less fighter heavy terrans and less frigate heavy zikonians. With a big enough corvette bulk I can play chicken with cathaars too if necessary. I'd rely on the fast research to give me an early ETA advantage while keeping on the hulls research.

The alternative path would be terran. With no overlapping in the attack fleets, an overall build between destroyers and battleships with the fighter spiceup for alliance defences seems like a plausible option. The destroyers will be able to put some attrition to EMP counterparts and there's the option to play chicken with xandathrii (albeit less attractive one). The battleships will trample past eitrades and xandathrii, and wreck havoc amongst less destroyer heavy zikonians too. The real threat would be the thief, with the two EMP fleets potentially causing trouble with teamups. Anticipating easy roids I'd happily rush for destroyers and hog xandathrii defence fleets to block out thieves with.

For xandathrii, it's between a rock and a tough place. The bomber is really too weak to be a plausible addition against zikonians - thus rendering fighters less useful if there's any thieves around. You could build a bunch, and strive against either of the two EMPs, but it's better to have some tough target to hit too - and against pegasus you're down by 10%+ by default, so it's not such an attractive target either. Banshees would probably remain a fake/defensive asset, with the frigates forming the major chunk of the fleet, targetting mainly eitrades and zikonian. I'd probably eventually get buttraped - there's a high chance there'll be successful terrans around, and wyverns will just fart at my face, even if brokers were workable with, which they hardly are, with 110%+ efficiency and no real destroyer antibattleship to pair with except for other spectres. I'd take comfort of the fact that I'd be a lousy low-pod target and try chunk my way in for roids until zikonians steal harpies and eitrades gets butt****ed hard.

I could also go zikonian, relying on the fact that they did the best job last round, and they're largely unchanged - granted, nightmares may hit you better, or not - but at least the corsair's now stronger. With the attractive option for cathaars to pull corvette heavy and abandon cruisers at large, I'd be even happier enough with my marauders probably getting less EMP blasts at them through round. The few things that would spell trouble are eitrades battleships - they're hopefully buttraped and have small fleets - and terran battleships, which I can't do much about. Spectre defences and scorpion defences work better for me though, so I'll hog some of those hopefully, or even steal a few scorps with some clever stunt I'm yet to come up. Of course, there's the chances of ingal farming drakes.

I'd probably slit my wrists before going eitrades. On the other hand, I'm glad we don't need to call it wintrades anymore. Voyager is a poor man's beetle, and I don't really know what the vendor is, but at least it scores in the chicken games against the merchant. There's a definate need to resist the temptation to build any dealers, as they're just inferior - if there will be cruiser cathaars around, they're best dealt with by a pack of tycoons coupled with brokers. This saying, terrans will now run over you, the high chances are you'll see quite a few cathaar corvette incomings too, and nightmares will bust your rear too. Glad there's still the ability to piss more on xans. It's like the main food for both your attack fleets, with the corvettes having a distant possibility to attack zikonians, too. No, don't do that - attack them with brokers too.


Eitrades and xandathrii seem a little weak.
Zikonian remains (very) strong.
Cathaar seems about "right" as JBG said.
Terrans may be a little strong, or then it's just the weakness of etd and xan.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:02   #19
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

is there a bcalc with the stats and how 'final' are these numbers?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:10   #20
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Basically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
I basically feel the stats are nearly at the finished point, and I basically want some feedback on them.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 13:51   #21
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I would go cathaar. A large corvette fleet coupled with scarabs, spiders, and scorpions for defensive measures. I'd probably ignore cruisers at large. Sounds a little eccentric, but avoids the stackability problems of tarantula and scorpion, and gives a very strong barrier against both xandathrii fleets, and helps against the zikonian one too. Battleships are zerolossed, so there's no need to worry about them. Scarabs are also strong enough to discourage some cruiser incomings, but the destroyers will be the hard part. There's good room to hit xandathrii and eitrades, and less fighter heavy terrans and less frigate heavy zikonians. With a big enough corvette bulk I can play chicken with cathaars too if necessary. I'd rely on the fast research to give me an early ETA advantage while keeping on the hulls research.
The option would be of course to lower the efficency of the CO ships slightly (~10%) and increase the CR ships slightly (~5%), so that a definative gap would be created between the two ships, would this affect your choices at all, and maybe make you consider CR more?

Quote:
The alternative path would be terran. With no overlapping in the attack fleets, an overall build between destroyers and battleships with the fighter spiceup for alliance defences seems like a plausible option. The destroyers will be able to put some attrition to EMP counterparts and there's the option to play chicken with xandathrii (albeit less attractive one). The battleships will trample past eitrades and xandathrii, and wreck havoc amongst less destroyer heavy zikonians too. The real threat would be the thief, with the two EMP fleets potentially causing trouble with teamups. Anticipating easy roids I'd happily rush for destroyers and hog xandathrii defence fleets to block out thieves with.
Sounds ok?

Quote:
For xandathrii, it's between a rock and a tough place. The bomber is really too weak to be a plausible addition against zikonians - thus rendering fighters less useful if there's any thieves around. You could build a bunch, and strive against either of the two EMPs, but it's better to have some tough target to hit too - and against pegasus you're down by 10%+ by default, so it's not such an attractive target either. Banshees would probably remain a fake/defensive asset, with the frigates forming the major chunk of the fleet, targetting mainly eitrades and zikonian. I'd probably eventually get buttraped - there's a high chance there'll be successful terrans around, and wyverns will just fart at my face, even if brokers were workable with, which they hardly are, with 110%+ efficiency and no real destroyer antibattleship to pair with except for other spectres. I'd take comfort of the fact that I'd be a lousy low-pod target and try chunk my way in for roids until zikonians steal harpies and eitrades gets butt****ed hard.
The bomber is weak to stop it completely mauling FR when defending against it. The spectre has both increase emp-res and armour, I dont really agree with the notion that BS will simply walk all over it, (ie 6k brokers roiding basically any Xan) I think it will take a large portion of your BS to actually roid them, rather than being able to send a small BS fleet each time.

Again if the emp eff of the Voyagers and Beetles (in-particular) was reduced, would Xan FI be more tempting?

Quote:
I could also go zikonian, relying on the fact that they did the best job last round, and they're largely unchanged - granted, nightmares may hit you better, or not - but at least the corsair's now stronger. With the attractive option for cathaars to pull corvette heavy and abandon cruisers at large, I'd be even happier enough with my marauders probably getting less EMP blasts at them through round. The few things that would spell trouble are eitrades battleships - they're hopefully buttraped and have small fleets - and terran battleships, which I can't do much about. Spectre defences and scorpion defences work better for me though, so I'll hog some of those hopefully, or even steal a few scorps with some clever stunt I'm yet to come up. Of course, there's the chances of ingal farming drakes.
I think the important thing to note with Zik's is that yes while they do steal, they will find it difficult to plug that FR gap, and as such 90% of them should have a weakness ALL round, unlike previousily

Quote:
I'd probably slit my wrists before going eitrades. On the other hand, I'm glad we don't need to call it wintrades anymore. Voyager is a poor man's beetle, and I don't really know what the vendor is, but at least it scores in the chicken games against the merchant. There's a definate need to resist the temptation to build any dealers, as they're just inferior - if there will be cruiser cathaars around, they're best dealt with by a pack of tycoons coupled with brokers. This saying, terrans will now run over you, the high chances are you'll see quite a few cathaar corvette incomings too, and nightmares will bust your rear too. Glad there's still the ability to piss more on xans. It's like the main food for both your attack fleets, with the corvettes having a distant possibility to attack zikonians, too. No, don't do that - attack them with brokers too.
Suggestions on what to change on the ETD's without dramatically changing everything?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 14:20   #22
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Tbh stats look good, and the critism is very constructive. Id play Cath though to be honest. Good work Game
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:01   #23
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game^
The option would be of course to lower the efficency of the CO ships slightly (~10%) and increase the CR ships slightly (~5%), so that a definative gap would be created between the two ships, would this affect your choices at all, and maybe make you consider CR more?
Probably. There's already a slight gap in favour of cruisers - but the main problem with cruisers is that the scorpion overlaps badly with the tarantula. The tarantula would need to be awfully strong to compensate for it, as if you don't do vipers, the corvettes are next to trash, and if you do tarantulas you're forced to do scorpions too or to be vulnerable to battleships.

Quote:
Sounds ok?
Yeah. The terran strength may be more result of others' weakness.

Quote:
The bomber is weak to stop it completely mauling FR when defending against it. The spectre has both increase emp-res and armour, I dont really agree with the notion that BS will simply walk all over it, (ie 6k brokers roiding basically any Xan) I think it will take a large portion of your BS to actually roid them, rather than being able to send a small BS fleet each time.
Spectre wins Wyvern by 99 and is on initiative disadvantage. It's trashed. Especially with terrans being stronger. You're forced to large collaterals, especially as battleships will be terran primary attack fleet (just one 0-loss, and that's the cruiser-overlapping scorp).

Quote:
Again if the emp eff of the Voyagers and Beetles (in-particular) was reduced, would Xan FI be more tempting?
Not really. I don't find xandathrii fighters parcitularily tempting. I don't find xandathrii particularily tempting, though. I hate the tradeoff between nightmare and phantom, it forces you into stacking out which leaves either your fighters prone to EMP floods (especially with the current cathaar corvettes), or your frigates prone to cruiser floods (which may be mitigated by the mentioned fact).



Quote:
I think the important thing to note with Zik's is that yes while they do steal, they will find it difficult to plug that FR gap, and as such 90% of them should have a weakness ALL round, unlike previousily
The gap might just be smaller with the immense corsair though.


Quote:
Suggestions on what to change on the ETD's without dramatically changing everything?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda
Scarabs as our only Fr will be only useful if you've chimeras, shadows or dealers to to team up with so many cath won't build many of these
No. No matter how few scarabs, against cathaars only, you'll never get killed, and every single scarab contributes to attrition. With chimera, dealer, and shadow against cruisers too, every single scarab contributes not only to attrition through EMP blasts (initiative 1 against roach's initiative 2) which prevent the roach from firing it's blasts, also contribute more through flak. While it doesn't kill, it just nudges it so much it's definately the best anticruiser, just doesn't work well with marauder.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:13   #24
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

I really don't, in general, like how five races stack up in this paradigm.

My preference is to nerf terran and zik de's emp resistance and then nerf the spider down a comparable amount as well.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:16   #25
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I really don't, in general, like how five races stack up in this paradigm.

My preference is to nerf terran and zik de's emp resistance and then nerf the spider down a comparable amount as well.
Thats the exact thing myself and toot have been talking about.

However Terran and Zik DE are both roiding classes, so nerfing them so ETD's could roid them 'easier', would naturally ensure ETD's cant be roided by DE?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 15:31   #26
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Adjust it so the anti-bs for zik and terran get frozen first and make the pods fairly tough versus emp.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:15   #27
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
No. No matter how few scarabs, against cathaars only, you'll never get killed, and every single scarab contributes to attrition. With chimera, dealer, and shadow against cruisers too, every single scarab contributes not only to attrition through EMP blasts (initiative 1 against roach's initiative 2) which prevent the roach from firing it's blasts, also contribute more through flak. While it doesn't kill, it just nudges it so much it's definately the best anticruiser, just doesn't work well with marauder.
Well as I said, scarabs alone won't do it.

There is 1 main use for scarabs and this is stopping Cath Cr.
Either you have alot of them to make a difference aka prevent some chims, shadows or dealers from being frozen, or you're wasting a fleetslot.

So as i wanted to say, a cath either builds not a single scarab or alot of them. (so it's similar to spiders but with spiders it's easier to decide to build zero) So i think i will spend the resources from the scarabs, build scorps instead and protect the roids of a xan/etd friend of mine so that this friend can build more shadows/dealers

The only situation i can think of where the scarab is clearly the best ship to use is:
A Etd is attacking with BS+ investors (due to scorpions) and the defenders want to use marauders to steal the investors. In this situation the scarab is the ideal ship to stop the investors.

For any other situation, chims or dealers will do the job as good as scarabs.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:17   #28
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

That's pretty much how cathaar fleets always work in fairness. You need a lot or you may as well not bother that much.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 16:18   #29
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

As a terran player, i love these stats, for the last few rounds all ive ever wanted was to have pegs and banshees fire same init and i think that alone would make terrans more balanced and able to defend themselves, the change of the nix to fi is slightly worse for terrans, but acceptable since id rather get hit by co and take small loses.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 18:47   #30
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Well Terrans needn't be all that easily be roided by co.. Terrans will have high amounts of Harpies and Phoenix as their main alliance defence fleet, so I dont see the problem here, apart from a few top ranked Cathaars who have an insane amount of CO.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:28   #31
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
So as i wanted to say, a cath either builds not a single scarab or alot of them.
Any cathaar non-attack fleet EMP ship EVER invented?

Quote:
The only situation i can think of where the scarab is clearly the best ship to use is:
A Etd is attacking with BS+ investors (due to scorpions) and the defenders want to use marauders to steal the investors. In this situation the scarab is the ideal ship to stop the investors.

For any other situation, chims or dealers will do the job as good as scarabs.
Wrong. Imagine a cathaar cruiser fleet attacking a xandathrii. Or a terran. Or an eitrades. Scarab's probably brilliant in all situations. Play with a bcalc about it.

In your situation, it's equally "ideal" just to kill the investors with chims, shads, or dealers.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 19:59   #32
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

From the Beta Forums ::

Ship Stats
1. Cath cant have 3 co ships plus pods as it makes them far too strong. This was discussed last round with the xans having 3 fi class ships and it was thrown away and the same argument stands for any race.

2. the investor cant be int 9 as a steal ship as its unfair on the ziks and overpowers the etd again.

3. change the zik stats

4. little more changing overall with the stats as they are dressed up dressed stats of r21 that have been the 'same' for afew rounds now.

5. the merchant e/r is too high for a cloak ship. cloak ships have a lower e/r as they have an advangage already.

6. the baliff needs to have lower costs damage and armour. this doesnt change much but keeps the ratio the same but in the combat engine makes the pods die along with the other etd bs as previously the etd pods died last making crashing advantageous over the other races. (if crashing can ever be a good thing.. less worse should i say)

7. Broker has too many guns

8. last round zik and xa were worst race to play and these stats buff the cath/terran/etd if anything the etd need a bad round since they have been strong for afew rounds. the non stat bonus' are insanly high so the stats need to be weakend to compensate.

9. Why is the shadow int so high??

10. The e/r of afew ships (ziks and most race's SK's seem wrong)



Written by KoKs Mon Aug 13 23:24:09 2007
1) Im with koks mostly, however long ago ships had multiple targets, primary and then a weaker seconday, donno how that would fit but could be a nice expansion.

2) Steal ships shooting before normal....now wai!

3)Zik fr and de attack fleets are still easily owned. Maybe switch it so there is 1 kill and 1 cap ship in each.

4) -

5) I like the high e/r, if needed get rid of the cloaked status, but as a pure def ship nobody masses them and they flak xan nicely.

------------------------------------------

My points >

Removal of ranger buffs terr bs which now targets and kills all anti-bs except for drakes, they had a strong round last time, dont make it easier. Same with etd bs, they now target all anti-bs def.

Bomber now own both the zik and xan fr att fleets, theye were the weakest races last time dont make it harder.

Written by -Benneton- Mon Aug 13 23:37:40 2007
1) Im with koks mostly, however long ago ships had multiple targets, primary and then a weaker seconday, donno how that would fit but could be a nice expansion.

2) Steal ships shooting before normal....now wai!

3)Zik fr and de attack fleets are still easily owned. Maybe switch it so there is 1 kill and 1 cap ship in each.

4) -

5) I like the high e/r, if needed get rid of the cloaked status, but as a pure def ship nobody masses them and they flak xan nicely.

------------------------------------------

My points >

Removal of ranger buffs terr bs which now targets and kills all anti-bs except for drakes, they had a strong round last time, dont make it easier. Same with etd bs, they now target all anti-bs def.

Bomber now own both the zik and xan fr att fleets, theye were the weakest races last time dont make it harder.

Written by -Benneton- Mon Aug 13 23:42:46 2007
id suggest changing or cath cr targets as they are far too superior and the only attack fleet that targets anything that targets them

Written by Entropy Tue Aug 14 09:41:15 2007
1. Right
2. Make it Init 21, cause ETD ships should be worse then Ziks cause they are just weak "copies"
3. Zik Stats are fine now, i played some last round, and with the improved Corsairs they will be even stronger
5. Right, Merchant is too high, Voyager is too low
6. Just make them cost as much as a Broker/Tycoon in average and its done

Written by Project Tue Aug 14 14:27:23 2007
I think Zik need some stweaking. my suggestions, some stolen from the chan:

Cutlass to DE-steal, Cutter to co-steal, Pir to bs-kill and Rogue to bs-kill.

Why? Zik are so effin weak against ter-bs. Give pirs a lower init that wyverns and its fairer.

or: Switch Buccaneer to fi-kill and thief to fi-steal
why?

DE-fleets are so darn inefficient. All anti-de shoot before them, and they suicide at stealing. So, making buccs killers would make it easier to use em.

Also, it would make both fleets having a killer/stealer.

Written by SuMa Tue Aug 14 16:33:01 2007
Also, The whole stealing-formula is bad.

First, they get shot by anti-ships, then they suicide when stealing.

and they cost like hell

So either drop the init, or drop suiciding.

Written by SuMa Tue Aug 14 16:33:58 2007
Um, and i say it again, lots of people did well with Zik last rounds, changing the stuff back as it was before will make them even stronger.

@Suma 2nd post
Yes Ziks are not easy to play.
Yes stealships have worst init in game
They cost like hell is a stupid argument, all the steal Zik-Stealships have really great stats.
=> The great stats compensate the bad init, AND THEY STEAL.

Noone needs uber-race, so zik is fine as it is, they are vulnerable to lots of attacking fleets until they steal a nice bunch of ships, but then zik is absolutely hard to attack.

@Suma 1st post
Stealing Thief = Ability to steal without losses -> BAD
Cutlass->DE no way cause Cutter->CO see reason above
YES Zik are bad against ter-bs, but why shouldnt it be that way? Get shot first and then steal through hard armor is never fun.
The Rogues are btw one of the best ships ingame, you dont want it to be changed Smile

Bucc to FI-Kill makes no difference, the init should stay the same, and as there really should be no zeroloss fi-stealer, bucc to fi-kill is out of discussion

de-fleets are a bit weak, but the banshee-remake should change that a bit Smile

Written by Project Tue Aug 14 17:40:21 2007
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:11   #33
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

It's fairly difficult to read that but out of the first load of points some of them are just laughable. How were zik and xan last round's worst races? They made up 63% of the t100 planets and 53% of the t500. As an overall % they made up about 40% of the total planets in the game. Who on earth posted that list?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:39   #34
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Any cathaar non-attack fleet EMP ship EVER invented?
Well I can't recall all shipstats of all 22 rounds but I'm sure there were some non attack fleet emp ships which weren't the only ship of this class and which could only be used against emp attack fleets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Wrong. Imagine a cathaar cruiser fleet attacking a xandathrii. Or a terran. Or an eitrades. Scarab's probably brilliant in all situations. Play with a bcalc about it.
Well i will try to imagine a cath who is attacking a xan who has a decent amount of shadows and the cath is sending a fleet which doesn't have a ridiculous high amount of roaches.

I've seen it in r21 and r22 that Cath Cr fleets which are attacking Xan are often "designed" for Xan.

I can also imagine a Cath Cr fleet flying towards a Ter and where i don't launch my scorpions but my scarabs as i don't want to get some Dragons unfrozen.

Well just give me an example where an equal number of scarabs AND an equal number of fleetslots, has a noticeable advantage over chims, dealers or shadows.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
In your situation, it's equally "ideal" just to kill the investors with chims, shads, or dealers.
except the Zik who wouldn't steal any investors cause they are dead when the marauders shot....
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 20:49   #35
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

One would think it a good idea to keep discussion about a single subject in 1 thread.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 21:28   #36
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
Well just give me an example where an equal number of scarabs AND an equal number of fleetslots, has a noticeable advantage over chims, dealers or shadows.
It's simply because of the scarab efficiency, and the fact that scarabs prevent roaches from firing their stun blasts. This is what makes the difference. Let me elaborate. This is without podclasses but for sake of simplicity.

100 roaches fire at 300 shadows. A shadow has 66 E/R so a .34 chance of getting stunned, and 100 roaches have total 1900 stun blasts. So that's enough to stun (1900 * .34 =) 646 shadows. No shadows get to fire.

A defence fleet of 200 scarabs arrives. A scarab carries 3 stun guns, and a roach has E/R 87 so .13 chance of getting stunned. This means the scarabs with a total of 600 guns stun (600 * .13 =) 78 roaches. This leaves 22 roaches left to blast. Of these roaches, (300 / 500 =) .6 meaning 60% fire at shadows. This means, the shadows will take blasts from (22 * .6 =) 13.2 meaning 13 roaches. 13 roaches have 247 guns, hence stun (247 * .34 =) 83.98 rounded for 84 shadows. The rest of the shots are spread to scarabs, which have already fired so it makes no difference. Now, this leaves with 216 shadows blasting their guns at roaches, killing (total damage 6048, with roach armor 135) 44.8 thus 45 roaches.

The alternative defence fleet could compose of equal value worth shadows. A scarab is worth (240 + 285 + 240 =) 765 resources. A shadow is worth (200 * 3 =) 600 resources. Thus, for the resources invested in 200 scarabs, you could buy ([765 / 600] * 200 =) 255 shadows. This adds the total shadows in defence up to 555. The roaches are able to stun 646 shadows, so no shadows get to fire. In order for 216 shadows to get to shoot with shadow defences, you'd need 862 shadows in total, which'd require again 562 shadows for defences. This means quite a bit more resources (to be exact, 562 shadows is worth 337,200, while 200 scarabs is 153,000 - so more than twice).

I am aware the combat engine will toss the randoms around a bit with such low numbers. Feel free to add zeroes after, so the aggregate comes up with the average resources with a very low confidence interval. Alternatively, you could show how an amount of scarabs will stun all roaches. Now comes down to the claim that because of pod resistances some may survive. You can play with the maths indefinately, and realize, that if you use equally valuable fleets, the scarabs are always superior. This especially applies to team-up defences with a kill fleet. Now you'll expect me to prove this.

90 roaches and 10 hornets. 1/10 scarabs get to shoot at hornets. A hornet has E/R 90, so a .10 chance to get stunned. 100 shots are needed to stun all. Thus, 34 scarabs. Because of the flak, 34 is actually just one tenth of the scarabs actually needed. Hence, you need 34*10 = 340 scarabs to stun the whole fleet (again, about number crunching, you can add this to 90k/10k cruisers and 340k scarabs to come up with low confidence intervals for the randomization). 340 scarabs is worth 260,100.

For 260,100 you can afford (260,100 / 600) 433.5 = 434 shadows. 90 roaches with 19 guns each stun ([19 * 90] * .34 =) 581 shadows. Not a single shadow gets to fire.

For 260,100 you can afford (260,100 / [900+750+750] =) 108.375 rounded up for 109 chimera. With the given total of 1710 guns, and chimera E/R 93, thus a 0.07 chance to get stunned, the roaches stun (1710 * 0.07 =) 119.7 rounded for 120 chimera. Not a single chimera gets to fire.

Was there anything else you wanted to ask? Or can we agree that the scarab in fact has a very good place in the fleet design, and definately finds it's "spot" tactically in team up defences and alone defending the home cathaar, and get on with the conversation?
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 21:42   #37
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

My opinion on the races and ships

Terrans look a lot stronger. Possibly the best race.
The Harpy has been upgraded and has received a flak ship to help it against its worst enemy: the Thief.
The change of class for the Phoenix has removed its use as an untargetted defence ship, but the Harpy/Phoenix combination will be strong enouhg to keep out Co attackers, or at least make it very easy to defend.
The Chimera has changed only a small bit. The upgraded emp resistance is nice; might even make some Terrans build them and focus on De only for their attack.
The change to the Drake weakens the defence against Zik De, but most Terrans build enough Wyvern any way. The use as anti-Bs however is quite usefull against Etd that have capped some Wyvern (although that now will now occur less).
The changes to the Pegasus do not affect its offensive capabilities. And will help to keep Xan fighters away more than ever.
Wyvern and Dragon had their Emp resistance downgraded. The pods are unchanged.
Etd have lost the ranger: this is good news for Terran Bs fleets.

Cathaar: nice offensively, but even weaker than ever defensively.
The Spider sucked and the improved emp resistance of the Pegasus will only make it worse. The ‘minor’ change to Pegasus emp resistance (1/7th) will offset the changes to its damage as far as the Spider is concerned.
Making three corvettes is a nice improvement, but alliances will not benefit: those Black Widows will be out roiding. The dwongrade of the Beetle is a serious loss. I don’t think Co fleets will be having more success now. Fighter defence is easy with the new Phoenix and Co defence is also possible with the Black Widow. Weird to see Cathaar have a fleet that could end up scaring it’s target for once. Attacking fighter heavy Xan is now better possible with those corvettes, but I don’t think we’ll see many of those Xan as their fighters have been made quite useless. The Nightmare on the other hand has become quite a nightmare.
The Scarab is unchanged. Cath Cr however had their Emp resistance improved, making them better against other Cathaar (bad for Cathaar if they start attacking themselves).

Xan. Was moderately strong. Is now weak.
The Banshee is now 12% more expensive. And it sees the initiative of its (former) main opponent improved. Yes, it is somewhat offset by the weakening of the Emp of Voyagers and Beetles, but against Terran you will just die. Cathaar and Etd were not the first choice of target, but if you have xan fighters, you will now have no other choice. Well, the better choice is to defend against a Terran, collect the salvage and build a Fr fleet.
Bombers have been severely downgraded, but instead have had their initiative improved. This helps to make Xan able to defend against its own Fr, but Xan Fr now have 2 alliance defence fleets to worry about.
The Wraith has been improved (no way a Xan should be able to hit anyting). The Shadow had a minor improvement to its Emp resistance. Nightmares received a major armor and an Emp resistance improvement at the cost of a minor damage downgrade. The Ghost will be severely missed as it was a major asset for xan with Fr fleets that also helped flak the Spectre. This Spectre received a minor upgrade, but without flak it’s even more useless than before.
The improvements don’t make up for the downgrade of the fighter attack fleet. Not even close.

Zik was a powerfull race and with the weakening of Etd, Zik will be the first choice for many experienced players.
There are some minor upgrades. The improvements to the emp resistance of the Cutter, Marauder and Privateer, will make zik stronger than ever.
Build cutlass for alliance defence to get you some Black Widows (and any anti-Fr you steal will also come in handy as this is your main weakness). The Fr fleet has been severely weakened as an attack fleet by changing the Phoenix class. Attacking Cathaar is now quite feasible however as is hitting other Zikonians. The Cutter will now be your main Frigate as it is needed to kill all defending Corsairs and is cheaper (better flak) than the Thief.
Zik De have hardly changed. The problem with this fleet is that where in the past Terrans were quite eager to team up, they no longer need you. The improvement to the Broker will be an obstacle to make this fleet work there. Only Cathaar seem possible. The Rogue is still a zero-loss ingal defence ship and a great way to get some of those nice Terran De. The Marauder has been upgraded for its role against Cathaar.
My main attack fleet would be Zik Fr. For alliance defence I would build some Cutlass, Pirates and Marauders. Ingal you could use your Rogues. Building a good attack fleet will not be easy. I think with some luck you build up a Bs fleet.

Etd suffers the loss of its best ship.
The weakening of the Voyager is compensated by the weakening of Xan fighters, so incomming Xan fighters will be quite possible to defend. Your corvette fleet is not made for attacking however. Zikonians are a possible target (untill they steal Black Widows), but Terrans appear much too strong.
The change to the Merchant is effectively an improvement as it makes attacks by corvettes less attractive because you now have flak. Note how the Merchant now has better armor and does more damage.
The Ranger will certainly be missed.
The Dealer had a major improvement in its Emp resistance. Combine that with the use of Merchants as flak and who needs to steal Dragons?
Investors are now a combination of the old Ranger and Investor. Note that the Investor steals before the Tycoon fires.
This new Tycoon is not very usefull. You can send it along to scare off tiny defenders, but that’s it. The Broker has been improved significantly.

Conclusion:

Race Attack Defence Total
Ter 8 8 8
Cath 8 2 5
Xan 7 6 6.5
Zik 5 8 6.5
Etd 7 7 7

Last edited by Gerbie2; 14 Aug 2007 at 22:18.
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Unread 14 Aug 2007, 23:45   #38
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
It's simply because of the scarab efficiency, and the fact that scarabs prevent roaches from firing their stun blasts. This is what makes the difference. Let me elaborate. This is without podclasses but for sake of simplicity.

100 roaches fire at 300 shadows. A shadow has 66 E/R so a .34 chance of getting stunned, and 100 roaches have total 1900 stun blasts. So that's enough to stun (1900 * .34 =) 646 shadows. No shadows get to fire.

A defence fleet of 200 scarabs arrives. A scarab carries 3 stun guns, and a roach has E/R 87 so .13 chance of getting stunned. This means the scarabs with a total of 600 guns stun (600 * .13 =) 78 roaches. This leaves 22 roaches left to blast. Of these roaches, (300 / 500 =) .6 meaning 60% fire at shadows. This means, the shadows will take blasts from (22 * .6 =) 13.2 meaning 13 roaches. 13 roaches have 247 guns, hence stun (247 * .34 =) 83.98 rounded for 84 shadows. The rest of the shots are spread to scarabs, which have already fired so it makes no difference. Now, this leaves with 216 shadows blasting their guns at roaches, killing (total damage 6048, with roach armor 135) 44.8 thus 45 roaches.

The alternative defence fleet could compose of equal value worth shadows. A scarab is worth (240 + 285 + 240 =) 765 resources. A shadow is worth (200 * 3 =) 600 resources. Thus, for the resources invested in 200 scarabs, you could buy ([765 / 600] * 200 =) 255 shadows. This adds the total shadows in defence up to 555. The roaches are able to stun 646 shadows, so no shadows get to fire. In order for 216 shadows to get to shoot with shadow defences, you'd need 862 shadows in total, which'd require again 562 shadows for defences. This means quite a bit more resources (to be exact, 562 shadows is worth 337,200, while 200 scarabs is 153,000 - so more than twice).

I am aware the combat engine will toss the randoms around a bit with such low numbers. Feel free to add zeroes after, so the aggregate comes up with the average resources with a very low confidence interval. Alternatively, you could show how an amount of scarabs will stun all roaches. Now comes down to the claim that because of pod resistances some may survive. You can play with the maths indefinately, and realize, that if you use equally valuable fleets, the scarabs are always superior. This especially applies to team-up defences with a kill fleet. Now you'll expect me to prove this.

90 roaches and 10 hornets. 1/10 scarabs get to shoot at hornets. A hornet has E/R 90, so a .10 chance to get stunned. 100 shots are needed to stun all. Thus, 34 scarabs. Because of the flak, 34 is actually just one tenth of the scarabs actually needed. Hence, you need 34*10 = 340 scarabs to stun the whole fleet (again, about number crunching, you can add this to 90k/10k cruisers and 340k scarabs to come up with low confidence intervals for the randomization). 340 scarabs is worth 260,100.

For 260,100 you can afford (260,100 / 600) 433.5 = 434 shadows. 90 roaches with 19 guns each stun ([19 * 90] * .34 =) 581 shadows. Not a single shadow gets to fire.

For 260,100 you can afford (260,100 / [900+750+750] =) 108.375 rounded up for 109 chimera. With the given total of 1710 guns, and chimera E/R 93, thus a 0.07 chance to get stunned, the roaches stun (1710 * 0.07 =) 119.7 rounded for 120 chimera. Not a single chimera gets to fire.

Was there anything else you wanted to ask? Or can we agree that the scarab in fact has a very good place in the fleet design, and definately finds it's "spot" tactically in team up defences and alone defending the home cathaar, and get on with the conversation?

I never said, well i never wanted to say that the scarab is useless. But as there aren't any teamup (within a cath fleet) anymore a cath will need even more of them to make them useful than it's used to be (i liked my r22 BW as defence against cath cr and i definatly don't want to say that making the BW a co kill ship is bad for cath, it's an huge upgrade)

for your example with the shadows, your're right, but you took the easy one as shadows have the lowest emp res and you the defending xan just have shadows but not a single nightmare or vampyre? additional the cath just attacked only with roaches? no tarantulas? no hornets?
so why didn't the defenders just organized some dragons,marauders or tycoons?
those 300 fr xan must have a much bigger cath friend, due to the fact that this cath has def ships from one of 3 def ships worth about 70% of one of 2 attack fleets of the xan

let's say our defending xan has 15k nightmares and 15k shadows (big numbers so that rounding isn't an issue) and the attacker sends 4,5k roaches, 4,5k tarantulas and 1k hornets

so we can add 10k scarabs or 3187 chims (which are very much and thus even unlikely compaired to the 10k cath cr and the 30k xan fr)

scarab battle:

10k scarabs (30k guns) shoot with 13,5k guns at roaches with 13,5k guns at tarantulas and with 3k guns at the hornets
1755 roaches 1755 tarantulas (well they have the same empres) and 300 hornets are frozen
now the missing 2745 roaches start freezing, noone cares about the scarabs or nightmares so only those 37,5% roaches (1029 roaches) are important
6647 shadows are frozen, the missing 8353 will have fun
they kill 809 tarantulas, 779 roaches and 137 hornets
563 hornets to steal roids



chimera battle
33187 defending fr
432 roaches fire at the chims freezing 574 chims
2033 roaches fire at the shadows freezing 13133 shadows

now 2613 chims kill 859 tarantulas, 827 roaches and 146 hornets
3641 taras, 3673 roaches and 854 hornets so 8168 cr still alive
1837 shadows kill 178 taras, 171 roaches and 30 hornets

so 1037 taras, 998 roaches and 176 hornets are killed
824 hornets can steal roids

in case the defending xan has less than 2252 roids the chims are better
if the defender has more than that those 2252 roids it all depends on the actual roid count and the bravery factor

and now please tell me which of our exaples is more likely to happen?

to repeat myself: I never wanted to say that scarabs are useless, but they aren't a "omg they are the best defense ship against class x, I must built them"

"omg they are the best defense ship against class x, I must built them" ships are BWs against etd co, harpies against xan fr and scorpions against ter and etd BS
There are some other zero loss defense ships around but these can't make the eta for alliance def

Cath got 2 of those ships which are useable against 3 attack fleets instead of 1 ship vs 1 attack fleet (r22 scorpion vs etd bs, the scorpion was useable against ter bs too but all those etd strictly banned the use of scorpions vs ter Bs as the scorpions might kill some of "their" precious ter bs)
So Cath will concentrate ever more on scorpions (and also on BWs) for def than last round.

To the whole thing i wanted to say about scarabs: they are useful anti Cr ships but we will see even less cath players with scarabs than last round

and to get back to the topic i will write up my second thought about Cath overall:

as I've stated before, cath co might be to powerful so maybe their power should be reduced
The BW shouldn't be the one which will be decreased the most as we might loose a good anti co ship here which might increase the power of co attack fleets(also the cath co attack fleet) again

the viper could have their emp efficientcy and armour per cost reduced (as the viper only has 2 guns, reducing the guns would be to much so we would need to increase the resource costs)
the emp efficientcy will lead to less frozen ingal nightmares and cutters and the reduced armour will lead to bigger looses for the attacking cath when there are BWs, nightmares or cutters defending

The reduced emp efficientcy won't automaticaly lead to defenseless cath vs Fr attacks as there are still roaches

similar changes could be done to the beetle but here we have to be careful as the beetles are the only anti fi ship cath has and due to the fact that banshees doesn't shoot before pegs anymore, cath and etd will become the primary target for xan fi
so maybe only the armour should be considered for a change

by the way we could also reduce the armor of the mosquito

the BW will still be powerful and will have alot of armor per resource but the other cath co would die like flies. Due to the fact that the BW is a "big" ship anyway it won't be targeted that much by it's opponents so it might even be possible to defend with BWs against cath co attacks
I would love to see some BW "shootouts"

With the loss of the ranger the scorpion clearly becomes anti BS ship #1
Ter Bs will kill all Bs targeting ships before they shoot except tarantulas and scorpions so this is a good attack fleet
Etd Bs will freeze the De and shoot after the Bs freezing/stealing cr

Etd got the weaker Bs fleet so we might change them a little bit

Tycoon shooting at investors after the investors had stolen some BS and suecided themselves completly (the damage of the investor is greather than the armor of broker and baliff and only slightly weaker than the armor of the tycoon)
So Tycoon won't even shoot at investors as there won't be any investors left (if the defenders sent to much investors it's their own fault)

I suggest that tycoons shoot before investors

As Etd will have a hard time to freeze all those drakes, spectres and pirates anyway we might give them an advantage against the scorpions

Let the investors (in case the etd send them with the BS) steal the scorpions before the scorpions shoot

my suggestion:
scorpions init 11 (so even spectres can take out scorpions)
investors init 10
tycoon init 9

Etd can now attack etd and have a small chance against scorpions

Other than that i think the Cath are "fine"

edited due to calc error

Last edited by Bedda0815; 15 Aug 2007 at 00:37.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 01:49   #39
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Well I'm a bit flattered that game has decided to use my stats as a base and disappointed at the same time because he didn't deal with either of the two basic flaws in my stats. There are still two cath attack ships that target FR with EMP, and the zik FR fleet can't steal. Really the stats needed to be totally rewritten, but oh well. Most of the things I see that are wrong with game's attempt have to do with my different philosophy about how to build stats, so I'll just keep my comments to myself. I have to at least say however that it does confuse me that after my mistake with the thief in r21 no one has really complained about game doing the same thing with the investor (which is pretty much useless) for r23.

P.S. To answer the original question in the thread I looked at cath and said wow, for the first time since r5 I may actually consider playing cath. Their offensive firepower is unstoppable (they target everything that targets them that can make out of gal eta), and by building just attack fleets and BS caths will be able to cover everything but DE/CR effectively, talk about a great combo.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 03:07   #40
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
P.S. To answer the original question in the thread I looked at cath and said wow, for the first time since r5 I may actually consider playing cath.
Races were introduced in R6 - in R5, there was a choice between War and Science .

Unfortnately, i have to drop into uni all of today, so i dont really have the time to look at the stats untill tomorrow. However, i've had a quick read of the posts above, and i am sad to see that it seems my beloved Xan has taken a broadside - i'll obviously reserve judgement on that untill i've looked well at the stats. Its good to see that Terran, however, are quite stronger than in the past - i think its important that the "default race" actually has some ability to work effectively as it improves the standards of the whole universe, and thus more "fun".

So, i'll think for a while and check back in .



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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 04:50   #41
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedda0815
for your example with the shadows, your're right, but you took the easy one as shadows have the lowest emp res and you the defending xan just have shadows but not a single nightmare or vampyre? additional the cath just attacked only with roaches? no tarantulas? no hornets?

and now please tell me which of our exaples is more likely to happen?
You asked me to show an example where scarab is superior. I showed you an example where scarab is superior. The "chimera" is also an "easy route" combined with 30k xandathrii frigates because of the targetting system, and the fact that a chimera costs four times as much as a shadow. Thus, you showed an "easy" example of a scenario where chimera is stronger, and again I did the different. What comes to likeliness to happen, go read through the stats again. Terrans have an anticruiser in one of their attack fleets. There isn't going to be much chimera around to reap the benefits of the EMP targetting glitch.

Quote:
Well just give me an example where an equal number of scarabs AND an equal number of fleetslots, has a noticeable advantage over chims, dealers or shadows.
Quote:
to repeat myself:
I'll repeat yourself to you.

Quote:
Well just give me an example where an equal number of scarabs AND an equal number of fleetslots, has a noticeable advantage over chims, dealers or shadows.
I'll repeat myself to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiet
You asked me to show an example where scarab is superior. I showed you an example where scarab is superior.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 15 Aug 2007 at 04:58.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 05:05   #42
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Races were introduced in R6 - in R5, there was a choice between War and Science
lol, r6 then, I only played cath once, and once was enough!
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 05:13   #43
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

By the way, this is also a very good route to point out one very large problem with the stats. It comes down with the fact that because a phoenix costs six times as much as a phantom, and has largely higher EMP resistance, you'll come down situations where you will be stunning all the phantoms, and you could be stunning double the phantoms more, while there will still be pissloads of phoenixes firing (the cutlass effect from round 19).


Oh, cancer. That's so bum. Definately no cath.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 15 Aug 2007 at 05:20.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 09:14   #44
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
My opinion on the races and ships

Terrans look a lot stronger. Possibly the best race.
The Harpy has been upgraded and has received a flak ship to help it against its worst enemy: the Thief.
The change of class for the Phoenix has removed its use as an untargetted defence ship, but the Harpy/Phoenix combination will be strong enouhg to keep out Co attackers, or at least make it very easy to defend.
The Chimera has changed only a small bit. The upgraded emp resistance is nice; might even make some Terrans build them and focus on De only for their attack.
The change to the Drake weakens the defence against Zik De, but most Terrans build enough Wyvern any way. The use as anti-Bs however is quite usefull against Etd that have capped some Wyvern (although that now will now occur less).
The changes to the Pegasus do not affect its offensive capabilities. And will help to keep Xan fighters away more than ever.
Wyvern and Dragon had their Emp resistance downgraded. The pods are unchanged.
Etd have lost the ranger: this is good news for Terran Bs fleets.
The only difference that I think may be happening with this race is E-res related, with maybe the Harpy, Phoenix and Drake being adjusted slightly.

Quote:
Cathaar: nice offensively, but even weaker than ever defensively.
The Spider sucked and the improved emp resistance of the Pegasus will only make it worse. The ‘minor’ change to Pegasus emp resistance (1/7th) will offset the changes to its damage as far as the Spider is concerned.
Making three corvettes is a nice improvement, but alliances will not benefit: those Black Widows will be out roiding. The dwongrade of the Beetle is a serious loss. I don’t think Co fleets will be having more success now. Fighter defence is easy with the new Phoenix and Co defence is also possible with the Black Widow. Weird to see Cathaar have a fleet that could end up scaring it’s target for once. Attacking fighter heavy Xan is now better possible with those corvettes, but I don’t think we’ll see many of those Xan as their fighters have been made quite useless. The Nightmare on the other hand has become quite a nightmare.
The Scarab is unchanged. Cath Cr however had their Emp resistance improved, making them better against other Cathaar (bad for Cathaar if they start attacking themselves).
I disagree that Cath are weaker defensively to be honest. I mean for starters they CAN actually stop CO attackers themselves now, meaning that their defence sink ships are only spiders and scarabs (scorp are free kill dont count them), and the rest are attack ships.

Quote:
Xan. Was moderately strong. Is now weak.
The Banshee is now 12% more expensive. And it sees the initiative of its (former) main opponent improved. Yes, it is somewhat offset by the weakening of the Emp of Voyagers and Beetles, but against Terran you will just die. Cathaar and Etd were not the first choice of target, but if you have xan fighters, you will now have no other choice. Well, the better choice is to defend against a Terran, collect the salvage and build a Fr fleet.
Bombers have been severely downgraded, but instead have had their initiative improved. This helps to make Xan able to defend against its own Fr, but Xan Fr now have 2 alliance defence fleets to worry about.
The Wraith has been improved (no way a Xan should be able to hit anyting). The Shadow had a minor improvement to its Emp resistance. Nightmares received a major armor and an Emp resistance improvement at the cost of a minor damage downgrade. The Ghost will be severely missed as it was a major asset for xan with Fr fleets that also helped flak the Spectre. This Spectre received a minor upgrade, but without flak it’s even more useless than before.
The improvements don’t make up for the downgrade of the fighter attack fleet. Not even close.
The most notable improvement for Xan will actually be the fact that Bombers fire before Nightmare, meaning they no longer need to buy huge amounts of Bombers and risk losing them everytime to put off Xan FR attackers. This should hopefully mean a greater investment in spectres, and also in FI/FR classes.

Quote:
Zik was a powerfull race and with the weakening of Etd, Zik will be the first choice for many experienced players.
There are some minor upgrades. The improvements to the emp resistance of the Cutter, Marauder and Privateer, will make zik stronger than ever.
Build cutlass for alliance defence to get you some Black Widows (and any anti-Fr you steal will also come in handy as this is your main weakness). The Fr fleet has been severely weakened as an attack fleet by changing the Phoenix class. Attacking Cathaar is now quite feasible however as is hitting other Zikonians. The Cutter will now be your main Frigate as it is needed to kill all defending Corsairs and is cheaper (better flak) than the Thief.
Zik De have hardly changed. The problem with this fleet is that where in the past Terrans were quite eager to team up, they no longer need you. The improvement to the Broker will be an obstacle to make this fleet work there. Only Cathaar seem possible. The Rogue is still a zero-loss ingal defence ship and a great way to get some of those nice Terran De. The Marauder has been upgraded for its role against Cathaar.
My main attack fleet would be Zik Fr. For alliance defence I would build some Cutlass, Pirates and Marauders. Ingal you could use your Rogues. Building a good attack fleet will not be easy. I think with some luck you build up a Bs fleet.
The main challenge to Zik will simply be can they cap enough ships to plug their main weaknesses, most notably the big FR hole they have, which has been made hard to do so on purpose. Pirates EMP res may also be reduced slightly.

Quote:
Etd suffers the loss of its best ship.
The weakening of the Voyager is compensated by the weakening of Xan fighters, so incomming Xan fighters will be quite possible to defend. Your corvette fleet is not made for attacking however. Zikonians are a possible target (untill they steal Black Widows), but Terrans appear much too strong.
The change to the Merchant is effectively an improvement as it makes attacks by corvettes less attractive because you now have flak. Note how the Merchant now has better armor and does more damage.
The Ranger will certainly be missed.
The Dealer had a major improvement in its Emp resistance. Combine that with the use of Merchants as flak and who needs to steal Dragons?
Investors are now a combination of the old Ranger and Investor. Note that the Investor steals before the Tycoon fires.
This new Tycoon is not very usefull. You can send it along to scare off tiny defenders, but that’s it. The Broker has been improved significantly.
ETD may well also see an improvement to their CO attack fleet slightly, to enable them to attack Terran's and Zik's more easily. The BS fleet may also benefit as the terran's and zik's anti BS may be recieveing a reduction in E-Res, to open up easier targets for BS.

Quote:
Conclusion:

Race Attack Defence Total
Ter 8 8 8
Cath 8 2 5
Xan 7 6 6.5
Zik 5 8 6.5
Etd 7 7 7
I presume this would be your ranking of preference for the races? Id agrue that your rating of Terran, Zik and Xan is about right, but i disagree on ETD and Cath, id probably swap them in terms of total score.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 09:18   #45
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
and disappointed at the same time because he didn't deal with either of the two basic flaws in my stats. There are still two cath attack ships that target FR with EMP,
And? Most of the ships in the game are FR

Quote:
and the zik FR fleet can't steal.
Add you mean making it so Zik shoot completely last all over again? And in essence completely overpowering their AC and DC, yeah great idea.

Quote:
Really the stats needed to be totally rewritten, but oh well. Most of the things I see that are wrong with game's attempt have to do with my different philosophy about how to build stats, so I'll just keep my comments to myself. I have to at least say however that it does confuse me that after my mistake with the thief in r21 no one has really complained about game doing the same thing with the investor (which is pretty much useless) for r23.
That's because it is completely different. I can't exactly see ETD's trying to farm ships they can already build, can you?

Quote:
P.S. To answer the original question in the thread I looked at cath and said wow, for the first time since r5 I may actually consider playing cath. Their offensive firepower is unstoppable (they target everything that targets them that can make out of gal eta), and by building just attack fleets and BS caths will be able to cover everything but DE/CR effectively, talk about a great combo.
Now I'm worried about how weak cath may be, afterall Monroe is the same person who went Terran to prove how strong they were

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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 09:20   #46
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
By the way, this is also a very good route to point out one very large problem with the stats. It comes down with the fact that because a phoenix costs six times as much as a phantom, and has largely higher EMP resistance, you'll come down situations where you will be stunning all the phantoms, and you could be stunning double the phantoms more, while there will still be pissloads of phoenixes firing (the cutlass effect from round 19).


Oh, cancer. That's so bum. Definately no cath.
This would mean that overall their would be more ships there can your EMP fleet can freeze, and is how the game should work?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 09:57   #47
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Their offensive firepower is unstoppable (they target everything that targets them that can make out of gal eta)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Phoenix. Combined with pretty much any non-terran fighter.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I just can't stop laughing, I'm so sorry.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Really the stats needed to be totally rewritten, but oh well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe, on another SD thread
Well I figured out a possible solution, to make them DE coupled with a change to caths to have their CR target DE (move all the anti CR FR to DE), which would have allowed them a second kill ship. But it's all a moot point now.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Look, it's Monroe on "stats needed to be totally rewritten" shocker (NO SARCASM).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm almost crying.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Dear god.

It's so harsh.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I think I'm going to call this a day, I'm definately sticking as far as possible from the stats debate. Monroe's humor is absolutely killing me.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Game
This would mean that overall their would be more ships there can your EMP fleet can freeze, and is how the game should work?
On a more serious aspect, no. It has to do with targetting. If you have 9k phantoms and 1k phoenixes, the shots are divided .9 by .1. Thus, 10k beetles with 70k guns allocate shots to 63k for phantoms and 7k for phoenixes. 7k shots against phoenixes stun 700 phoenixes, with 300 left to fire. 63k shots at phantoms stun 45990 phantoms. Ironically, 440 beetles die under phoenix fire while 45990 phantoms are stunned, outof the 9000 phantoms that actually take part in the combat. (This is, assuming it hasn't yet been fixed into some excess EMP distributed among other attackers or shots distributed by resistance or value or something). The excess 35990 phantoms you could theoretically stun are wasted shots, so de facto you have enough beetles to stun everything, the targetting just screws you up. This means, that you'd need incredible amounts of overkill stun blasts to snipe the phoenixes from between the cutlass/phantom/banshee/spider spam.

Yeah, it sounds small collateral damage. But it can end up with some very annoying situations. That's why I decided to never again play cathaar after round 19.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Monroe thinks the stats should have been completely redone.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
I have to at least say however that it does confuse me that after my mistake with the thief in r21 no one has really complained about game doing the same thing with the investor (which is pretty much useless) for r23.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I thought it was an experiment that didn't work quite as you expected. (I never really heard the explanation to how you expected it to work after I was politely removed from the dev boards).

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Maybe Game is trying to make the experiment work in some different, unpredictable way? Maybe the way you thought your experiment would work?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 10:15   #48
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Surely 'spare' guns are reallocated to other ships of the same class?
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 10:17   #49
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

They weren't allocated so in round 19 at least. I seriously doubt it's been changed. I had a serious amount of beetles after the Gôsu kids had a fleetcatch on me, and I was still getting bummed by zikonian fighter fleets because the zikonian fighters were so heavy in compared to xandathrii fighters that there'd be a thousand or three left shooting at me even if I had stunned the cloakboys tenfold.
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Unread 15 Aug 2007, 10:24   #50
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats

Holy shit, you're right.
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