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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 21:05   #1
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Reguarding an old thread about light speed & stuff

I don't remember how long ago, but it's been about a year maybe 2 since i've seen it. It was a thread about 2 ships traveling head on and they were both going light speed. The question to it was if the distance or gap would be closing at a higher speed than light speed? oh gawd i hope someone remembers this...Im **** in physics and I never fully understood it or got the right answer so im wondering if anyone can explain it better
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 21:12   #2
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lorentz transformation.

relative to either ship, the other is coming at him at the speed of light.

the math will look clear if you say they are each going at .99c relative to some third party.
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 21:12   #3
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 21:52   #4
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what the funkenwaggles?
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 21:57   #5
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approach speed = (a+b)/(1+ab/c^2)
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 21:58   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
the math will look clear if you say they are each going at .99c relative to some third party.
What ARE you talking about?
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 22:06   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
What ARE you talking about?
he's saying make sure you are using the same frame of reference when you are calculating relative speeds

i think
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 22:17   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragnarak
he's saying make sure you are using the same frame of reference when you are calculating relative speeds

i think
Obviously that helps, but I don't see how using 0.99c makes the maths easier; my equation is the simplest one to use, and it just makes the maths much much harder.
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 22:46   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Obviously that helps, but I don't see how using 0.99c makes the maths easier; my equation is the simplest one to use, and it just makes the maths much much harder.
it doesn't really make the math easier,

it makes it easier to see what is happening.

if you use speed of light for both, and plug it in,

you get (1+1)/(1+1*1/1) = 1, which doesn't really help you understand what is going on.

best to do .5, then .9, then .99, and you'll understand.

also by using lower and lower values, you can see how it approaches the galilean transformation (but by using a = 0 and b = 0 it won't teach you much either).
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 22:57   #10
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That's pretty clear anyway, from how the eqn's structured. You also didn't GIVE the eqn.
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 23:01   #11
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Unread 7 Aug 2003, 23:08   #12
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Unread 8 Aug 2003, 12:48   #13
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Re: Reguarding an old thread about light speed & stuff

Quote:
Originally posted by AliasX
I don't remember how long ago, but it's been about a year maybe 2 since i've seen it. It was a thread about 2 ships traveling head on and they were both going light speed. The question to it was if the distance or gap would be closing at a higher speed than light speed? oh gawd i hope someone remembers this...Im **** in physics and I never fully understood it or got the right answer so im wondering if anyone can explain it better
Its been about 8 months or so, I posted the thing


It got hijacked by certain physicists (sp?) and mathemagicians .
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Unread 8 Aug 2003, 18:18   #14
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I want that thread back. All im gettign are numbers in this thread (which helps clear a bit up) but as i said, i barely know any physics, could you recap the thread outcome if possible?
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Unread 8 Aug 2003, 19:35   #15
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I interpreted acro's post as an expression of the frustrations of
- Nothing with rest mass can travel at light speed.
- If you were a photon, you'd be travelling at the speed of light and you would get to your destination the same moment that you left. Which would make it hard to measure any velocities.


Someone inbetween the two spaceships might be able to see the spaceships through a telescope preparing to travel. Then they'd both arrive immediately. If he was a physicist he could work out that the distance between the two spaceships was decreasing at twice the speed of light but that's an artifical contruct. You couldn't use that setup to convey information faster than light, for instance.
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Unread 8 Aug 2003, 20:20   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliasX
I want that thread back. All im gettign are numbers in this thread (which helps clear a bit up) but as i said, i barely know any physics, could you recap the thread outcome if possible?
The speed two objects recede or approach eachother has a maximum value of the speed of light.

This is a side effect of the speed of light being constant for all observers.

Say you're travelling at the speed of light, towards a light particle (OR ANY OTHER OBJECT AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT). Because the speed of light is constant for all observers, you'll get the light coming at you at the speed of light, immeterial of your speed.

If two objects move apart very slowly (compared to c) then this effect isn't noticeable, and it gets more and more so until you get to the speed of light.
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Unread 8 Aug 2003, 22:56   #17
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why do you ask? are you planning on a little light-speed chicken?
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Unread 8 Aug 2003, 23:30   #18
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Perhaps an easier way of explaining it would be to imagine yourself in an extremely fast car. Imagine also that this car has a light-receiver which can actually measure the velocity at which the light is travelling towards the car.

When the car is stationary and a laser beam then switched on in the direction of the car, the receiver measures the light's speed to be 299,792,458 metres per second (m/s).

Now imagine that the car, being an extremely good car, then reaches a constant velocity of 25% the speed of light (roughly 75,000,000 m/s) in a direction away from the laser emitter. When the laser is switched on the car will measure the speed of light as 299,792,458 metres per second.

Now if you think about it, imagine that a red car is moving towards a stationary blue car at 30mph. To the observer in the blue car it is moving towards them at 30mph. Now imagine that the blue car is now moving at a speed of 30mph away from the red car. The red car will appear to the observer in the blue car to be moving at 0mph reletive to themselves.

This clearly does not happen with light. It is very similar to a hypothetical situation involving a car travelling TOWARDS the laser. The speed will still be measured at 299,792,458 m/s. If it were two cars travelling at the same speed towards each other however - both at 30mph, say, to the observer in the blue car the red car would appear to be travelling towards them at 60mph.

Now imagine one of those two ships being a laser beam. Just like in the car, independant of the speed at which it is travelling, the ship will see see the laser coming towards it at the speed of light. If the ship is travelling at the speed of light it makes no difference.

I am probably completely wrong in what I just said but that is what I imagine to be correct, so feel free to correct me.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 02:05   #19
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 02:27   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
The speed two objects recede or approach eachother has a maximum value of the speed of light.

This is a side effect of the speed of light being constant for all observers.

Say you're travelling at the speed of light, towards a light particle (OR ANY OTHER OBJECT AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT). Because the speed of light is constant for all observers, you'll get the light coming at you at the speed of light, immeterial of your speed.

If two objects move apart very slowly (compared to c) then this effect isn't noticeable, and it gets more and more so until you get to the speed of light.
That doesn't make sense..

If light from earth uses 7 minutes to sun, and likewise for light from the sun to the earth:
is there any sane reason as to why they wouldn't meet in the middle after 3.5 minutes?

And if they do; how can the speed they're approaching eachother not be 2x lightspeed? ('speed' as in a little green man with obscene measuring equipment sitting on a little ball of light going one way measuring the speed relative from his vantage point of another ball of light going the other way)

And please feel free to stay away from big/long/dangerous words in any explanations, discussing(read: being taught) physics in foreign languages is a nightmare
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:02   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by hyfe
That doesn't make sense..

If light from earth uses 7 minutes to sun, and likewise for light from the sun to the earth:
is there any sane reason as to why they wouldn't meet in the middle after 3.5 minutes?

And if they do; how can the speed they're approaching eachother not be 2x lightspeed? ('speed' as in a little green man with obscene measuring equipment sitting on a little ball of light going one way measuring the speed relative from his vantage point of another ball of light going the other way)

And please feel free to stay away from big/long/dangerous words in any explanations, discussing(read: being taught) physics in foreign languages is a nightmare
"duration" only makes sense in a reference frame. "Speed" (more propperly, velocity) only occur between two objects. And "sane" is the lie-of-the-millenia used to cover up that most people have not the second clue, and in fact have "common sense" quite contrary to, how reality works.


Besides, the little green man would measure instant travel time over zero distance.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:30   #22
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I'm fairly certain that did not help at all......


First off; Duration only makes sense in a frame of reference? How you define minutes and how you measure it is none of my problem; unless I'm misunderstanding you, that sentence is just a sidetrack.

Second off, I'm not particularly concerted about how difficult it will be for the little green man to measure the speed, thats *his* problem. He's obviously not going to use light to measure it though, so he's most likely going to use his inherit magic abilities, or more likely; his superior guessing skills.

Third of all, does it matter that light isn't an object? It still has a position yeah? A position which changes? A position which changes fairly continuesly? ..and thus it has speed yeah?

and lastly, my definition of 'sane' is pretty wide
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:38   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by hyfe
First off; Duration only makes sense in a frame of reference? How you define minutes and how you measure it is none of my problem; unless I'm misunderstanding you, that sentence is just a sidetrack.
time (in motion) = time (in rest) * SQRT(1 - v^2/c^2)

Quote:
Originally posted by hyfe
Second off, I'm not particularly concerted about how difficult it will be for the little green man to measure the speed, thats *his* problem. He's obviously not going to use light to measure it though, so he's most likely going to use his inherit magic abilities, or more likely; his superior guessing skills.
Whatever speed you think you're going at (in terms of speed = distance/time) you're going at relative to the rest frame you define. This is because the lorenz transform for length cancels out the one for time.

Quote:
Originally posted by hyfe
Third of all, does it matter that light isn't an object? It still has a position yeah? A position which changes? A position which changes fairly continuesly? ..and thus it has speed yeah?
It is an object. It does have speed.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:47   #24
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if 2 objects travel towards each other , each at the speed of light - the relative speed between the objects is twice the speed of light.
Peeps seem to be confusing the fact that neither object is traveling greater than the speed of light.
- if you were an observer on one of the ships - you would not see anything other than a stationary ship then bang in the imaginary collision between these imaginary ships.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:49   #25
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:52   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
if 2 objects travel towards each other , each at the speed of light - the relative speed between the objects is twice the speed of light.
Peeps seem to be confusing the fact that neither object is traveling greater than the speed of light.
Wrong. Please don't speak as if you've any authority if you do not even have basic knowledge of special relativity.
Quote:
...if you were an observer on one of the ships - you would not see anything other than a stationary ship then bang in the imaginary collision between these imaginary ships.
Obviously true since to "see" something, light has to pass from it to you, and that light naturally travels at the speed of light.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:55   #27
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Originally posted by W
Wrong. Please don't speak as if you've any authority if you do not even have basic knowledge of special relativity.
no its isn't - don't get ****y

the relative velocity between the ships is 2 x speed of light
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:55   #28
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as showing my a co-ordinate transformation formula that yields what i percieve to be the 'wrong' result, doesn't exactly help me.. especially since I don't particurarly see the point of transforming them in the first place...
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:56   #29
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no its isn't - don't get ****y
I guess you missed the part earlier in this thread on how to add relativistic velocities, after missing it when you got (what poses as) your physics education.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:57   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
if 2 objects travel towards each other , each at the speed of light - the relative speed between the objects is twice the speed of light.
NO

IT

ISN'T

Why don't people LISTEN to PHYSICISTS?
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:58   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by hyfe
as showing my a co-ordinate transformation formula that yields what i percieve to be the 'wrong' result, doesn't exactly help me.. especially since I don't particurarly see the point of transforming them in the first place...
That's newtonian, and yep, SR replaces those concepts.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:59   #32
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Originally posted by W
I guess you missed the part earlier in this thread on how to add relativistic velocities, after missing it when you got (what poses as) your physics education.
didn't miss anything
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:59   #33
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soo.. if i conclude that it doesn't make sense in normal layman physics with an universal rest frame and a universal ticker keeping track of time.. am i too far off?
It's called "classical" or "newtonian" physics, the completely wrong view of the universe which states stupid things like that combining two velocities means simply adding them together. It's what's taught as "fact" before you have to unlearn it all later on.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 03:59   #34
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For cryptic.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
approach speed = (a+b)/(1+ab/c^2)
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:00   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
It's called "classical" or "newtonian" physics, the completely wrong view of the universe which states stupid things like that combining two velocities means simply adding them together. It's what's taught as "fact" before you have to unlearn it all later on.
Special Relativity is a classical (nonquantum) theory...
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:01   #36
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Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
For cryptic.
we are talking about 2 pretend ships
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:01   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
didn't miss anything
(a+b)/(1+ab/c^2)

Explain what this equals if a=b=c?
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:02   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
we are talking about 2 pretend ships
We're having a throught experiment. We're not just ignoring physics.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:03   #39
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Special Relativity is a classical (nonquantum) theory...
It's all classical when the next renaissance comes about.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:04   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by W
(a+b)/(1+ab/c^2)

Explain what this equals if a=b=c?
we are talking about a theoritical situation with imaginary objects that can't be test or proven in any way shape or form currently available.
You are also applying formula that can't be proven to work for an object such a space ship traveling at the speed of light.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:06   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
we are talking about a theoritical situation with imaginary objects that can't be test or proven in any way shape or form currently available.
You are also applying formula that can't be proven to work for an object such a space ship traveling at the speed of light.
Special relativity states that the speed of light is constant for all observers. This means that EVEN IF YOU ARE TRAVELLING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, ANOTHER OBJECT TRAVELLING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT CAN ONLY MOVE WITH THE SPEED OF LIGHT RESPECT TO YOU.

You're currently trying to argue against what EINSTEIN MEANT BY HIS THEORY.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:07   #42
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Originally posted by W
It's all classical when the next renaissance comes about.
Bloody physics.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:08   #43
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Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Special relativity states that the speed of light is constant for all observers. This means that EVEN IF YOU ARE TRAVELLING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT, ANOTHER OBJECT TRAVELLING AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT CAN ONLY MOVE WITH THE SPEED OF LIGHT RESPECT TO YOU.

You're currently trying to argue against what EINSTEIN MEANT BY HIS THEORY.
nope
"A relative velocity is only a concept"
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:10   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
we are talking about a theoritical situation with imaginary objects that can't be test or proven in any way shape or form currently available.
You are also applying formula that can't be proven to work for an object such a space ship traveling at the speed of light.
And you aren't?

I never claimed that you were factually wrong. I claimed you were theoretically wrong. What you wrote was wrong according to modern physics. What I write is correct according to modern physics. If reality has some third option, I'm pretty certain I'll find out before you.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:10   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
nope
Do you want me to have to quote from Dynamics and Relativity, by W D McComb (published by Oxford University Press), which was required reading for my physics degree?
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:11   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
nope
"A relative velocity is only a concept"
Like time and space.

If there's no such thing as a relative velocity, it would actually be impossible for things to move.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:17   #47
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Do you want me to have to quote from Dynamics and Relativity, by W D McComb (published by Oxford University Press), which was required reading for my physics degree?
the onserver is irrelivent - if we stand at static points
299,792,458 meters apart and peg it at each other at the speed of light , i'll nick your wallet as we pass in the middle and buy you some new books
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:20   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic
the onserver is irrelivent - if we stand at static points
299,792,458 meters apart and peg it at each other at the speed of light , i'll nick your wallet as we pass in the middle and buy you some new books
Einstein's theory of velocity addition was decided to be empirically correct exceptionally quickly, partially due to Fresnel's theory about the movement of light in water.

You're going against the whole of the physics establishment here, and an immense amount of empirical evidence.

Whilst a theory can never be proven correct by empirical means, they can be disproved.

And you are most definitely wrong.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:22   #49
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MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.MrL_JaKiri has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Your first post also assumes a universal rest frame. This went out with newton, I'm afraid.
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Unread 9 Aug 2003, 04:22   #50
Cryptic
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Einstein's theory of velocity addition was decided to be empirically correct exceptionally quickly, partially due to Fresnel's theory about the movement of light in water.

You're going against the whole of the physics establishment here, and an immense amount of empirical evidence.

Whilst a theory can never be proven correct by empirical means, they can be disproved.

And you are most definitely wrong.
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