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Unread 21 Jul 2014, 22:15   #101
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

EMP eff on cath will not be touched.
If anything it will be increasing emp res on ter.
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 02:00   #102
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Well, i would say that im finished with smoothing it out/fixing the ships.

Yet pods/sks aint fixed yet, i will get to it later i assume.
All ships is finished for this 1st version of these stats.
Comments are very much welcomed.
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 02:59   #103
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

"Major changes" ive considered could be possibole for the 2nd draft of the set:

*** Merging Pulsar and Phantom into one fighter, and adding a FI/CO shooting CO to xan and giving dagger CO shooting option.

*** Adding a FI/CO stealing DE to zik(prolly wouldnt make any sense to most people)

*** Changing the lancer from cloaked to normal
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 08:27   #104
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
"Major changes" ive considered could be possibole for the 2nd draft of the set:

*** Merging Pulsar and Phantom into one fighter, and adding a FI/CO shooting CO to xan and giving dagger CO shooting option.
I dont like the idea of merging the Pulsar and Phantom. Your xan fi is much more powerful than this round's xan fi which seemed to do well enough (armour is about the same; 380/450/427 against r57's 401/308 but damage is much higher 666/630/683 vs r57's 481/471). The main thing preventing it being too overpowered is the need to build three ships rather than two imo.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
*** Adding a FI/CO stealing DE to zik(prolly wouldnt make any sense to most people)
The corsair already steals de so this would seem to be a bit superfluous. That said it is notable that zik has nothing that targets de as T1; is de meant to be their defensive weakness?

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
*** Changing the lancer from cloaked to normal
Well the lancer is not otherwise a very good ship as it fires after everything it targets with the exception of steal ships its armour and damage are decent but nothing exceptional. I can no longer see anyone playing etd fr unless it is to partner with xan because they will never get through alliance def on their own. However for a teamup partner being cloaked makes etd fr an interesting companion to xan fr as the ghost balances out the xan weakness of the fireblade.

n.b. I have not yet looked again at the overall stats yet so I will come back with my more general impressions later today.
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 18:52   #105
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

With current 'first draft' in Beta: ( no bcalcing, waiting with that untill stats are final ) But targetting, Init and A/C D/C should give a good general idea.

Terran FR , probably with War Cruiser for anti FR since CR as anti FR is nicer because of targetting. Seems good for self defense, bad vs Xan Fi , so overal difficult to attack with. No real use for adding in teamup FR : Average.

Terran BS: Difficult to make a fleet that targets everything. I guess add Centaur and Chimera. Also means you can fake your FR as BS fleet.
BS attack fleet is quite strong vs FR/DE defense. Tempting for attack, but overal terrible for ally def. Wanted for team up with ETD BS. : Average

Cath CO: Add Tarantula for anti BS/CR , 3 ships to target everything. Good for attack with great efficiency, but vulnerable to some BW freezing your CO before they even get to emp themselves. Overal very good in attacking, and all ships useful for ally defense. Wanted for team up with ETD CO: Very strong.

Cath DE: Not sure what to get for anti DE. No cath ships with T1 DE, so probably Viper since they can make the ETA. 4 ships to target everything.
Great for attacking with their high efficiency ships. Hardly any T1 DE ships, so even if you don't fully EMP, losses wont be that big. Good self defense vs Co fleets with better Init. Very Strong ( slightly better than Cath Co strenght wise, but not possible to ally def with all ships)

Cath CR: Beetle and Scorpion added to target everything. Stealing into your CR fleet would be awesome, but there arent that many fun CR ships to steal. Since the Zik CR has init advantage over it, a battle vs it wont be pretty. Only useful if the attacking CR has low anti BS in the fleet. Attack wise the CR fleet looks ok, however with so many possible FR/DE fleets landing might still be tough. Efficiency on the Mantis is great tho vs CR, so can't expect much more. Cath CR very wanted for teamups with Zik CR. Strong

Xan Fi: Add Tzen for anti Fi and Shadow for anti CR/BS. Since Shadow as DE gets hit T2 mostly. Xan Fi in attack very vulnerable vs a bit of Tzen for suicide defense. In ally defense beetles and defenders have great efficiency vs it. Together with a bit of steal, it wont be that hard to cover. Xan Fi also vulnerable against EMP attackers, but good for ally def vs non emp attack ( besides Xan FR) No real teamup options or wanted for teamups, maybe if Zik builds daggers, and steals Xan fi, but thats kinda stretching. Below average

Xan FR: Pulsar for anti FR, ally defense, tho crappy vs Xan FR, but can at least make eta. Xan FR has init advantage vs any kill ships that can make the ally def eta. So good in attack and good in self defense, only weak vs CR/BS in both attack and defense. Cloak advantage very useful with your FR fleet since it targets 5 out of 6 classes. Strong

Xan BS: Peacekeeper great for anti CR, but besides that, bad init of the Broadsword and only targetting 3 ships with your attack fleet just seems bad overal. Dont see why you'd wanna play it. Weak

Zik anything:: Stealing ships in attack classes makes it kinda messy, Overal can't really land anything solo, but it's 'normal' Zik stuff. There should at least be lots of EMP ships to team up with. And adding the zik ships to defensive battles does help a lot. Average

ETD CO: Ghost for anti CR/BS. With Ghost being an awesome ally def ship.
The Co fleet needs teamup with Cath Co for the freezing of FR/DE. 3 ships to target all classes, with great EMP efficiency on the defender. Not that great for solo attacking, but team up of Cath/Zik/ETD seems very strong. Out of those 3, ETD CO seems best in self defense. Strong

ETD FR: Nice Cloak fleet, add Smuggler to anti FR/DE, stealing FR for your attack fleet. Missing anti DE in your attack fleet, but you don't want to attack on your own anyway with bad init of Lancers. Teaming up with cloaked Xan FR seems the obvious choice. Makes for a mean ( fake ) attack fleet. Very vulnerable in defense vs FR/DE. Average

ETD DE: with Smuggler? for anti DE. given the overal strenght of CO, it seems like there will be a lot of it around, so it makes sense to get smugglers for ally def, they wont do much solo but with other co they do help. The DE attack fleet can team up with Cath DE to add killing power, but that's more taking advantage of the strenght of Cath DE. Devastator seems good , doesnt get hit much by BS/CR at T1. Average

ETD BS: Devastator and Defender to target everything. The good Predator Init is a bit wasted since its only EMP and Steal CR that hits BS. Avenger has great efficiency vs FR and still decent vs DE. They will be wanted for teamup with Terran BS. Since both have T2 DE, it might even be useful to add Xan BS on a BS team up for Broadswords with their T1 DE and good dmg.
Overal decent attack fleet, but bad in ally defense and self defense. Average

Changes:
I'd propose switching some T1 and T2 around.
Pegasus hitting Fi/Co same as Black Widow isn't that useful. Switching it around would help increase the strenght of the ETD DE and make them more useful for teaming up with Cath DE. Also lowers the strenght of Co attack fleets a bit. So ingal/PL DE can stop them easier.
Maybe Avenger to T1 DE and T2 FR so it's more wanted and useful with Terran BS.
Beetle to T1 CO and T2 FI ( or defender depending on if Peg changes to T1 CO)
But I guess all the EMP targetting FI/CO and none Co/Fi is because it's a pain/impossible to get efficiencies right otherwise.

Besides that, Xan FI seems to have too many weaknesses and not enough strenghts. I'd increase their E/R a bit. Tzen murdering them and the normal EMP/Steal stopping them seems fine already. No need to make the EMP Co this great at stopping them.

Oh and I'd just give the Zik a CO Pod. so they can join teamups with Co attack right from the start and dont have to rely on 'lucky' Cov Ops or steals to get their Co pods. As the only CO killing CO the cutlass will be needed in attacks and defense. I think it's best to remove the temptation of shipdonating some pods at the start.

Overal, for each race I saw something that made me possibly want to play the race. So not bad.
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 19:01   #106
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Here's my main concern: Xan has 3 pods. This is just Bad. Xan normally already has a tendency to be overpowered, and adding a bonus pod makes their fakes that much stronger. Please change. The remainder of my post combined is less important than this paragraph.

Many pod costs are much too high.

Ter Fr: Very strong defensively. The fact that it's main weakness is its own class helps balance it. The more people go Fr, the weaker it becomes. Few ships can defend against it too. Only the Pulsar fires before it. Nasty.

Ter Bs: Very strong offensively, with only Emp and the Ghost (T2) firing before it. Cr -> Bs ships seem weak in general. Combined with Ter Fr, Ter looks overpowered. And that's not something that's easy to achieve.

Cat Co: A fairly boring fleet, but strong as always. Not much else to say.

Cat De: Idem. A smidge stronger defensively because it covers that extra class, but somewhat weaker offensively because of its 3 ships. I don't really see the point of forting as Cat, though.

Cat Cr: Even more boring... Nothing fires before it, just gotta outflak it. Next.

Xan Fi: Holy shit those Effs. I don't usually even look at them, but they're definitely out of line here, even with 3 ships. At least -50 A/C across the board, please, maybe even -100 on the Phantom and Pulsar. The init on the Pulsar makes this just about the only non-Fr fleet that can deal with a mass-Fr universe, so I expect Xan to do well with these stats regardless. Only the Tzen fires before it. Overpowered. That said, I'm glad the fleet doesn't fire at itself.

Xan Fr: Looks strong. Cr/Bs forts should be able to deal with this, and the relatively low E/R makes Emp-heavy defense viable. A small reduction in E/R would be good nonetheless.

Xan Bs: Weak. Would be better if Cr wasn't completely useless, but no one will go Cr with Bs this strong, and most Fr/De fires either before or at the same time as it.

Zik Fr: Cutter fires too early. Both better ETA and init hurts Etd De and Zik Cr badly. Beyond that, the fleet doesn't really do much. Bucc init is too high to be useful for a kill ship (should be 6). Target swap on the Thief would make it more valuable in teamups, and allow it to steal Co pods more easily. Dagger to init 4-5 as well.

Zik Cr: Relegated to teamups with Cat. No other point for investing in this fleet. Attack fleets need a kill ship.

Etd Co: Interesting. The Defender stops ally def and the Smuggler allows stealing both Fr and De. I like it. Solid fleet, neither too strong nor too weak.

Etd Fr: Ghost looks ridiculously strong. Covering 2 classes at good ETA, and its the only ship that can handle Ter Bs in the slightest. Lancer is very weak, though, even cloaked. Might as well switch targets and make it a kill ship at this init. Making the Ghost a bit weaker and the Lancer a bit stronger might be a good idea.

Etd De: Fairly average. Middle of the road inits, though it may turn into a pile of shit if too many alliances pick Fr.

Etd Bs: Excellent. The weakness of Cr allows you to focus almost entirely on the Avenger, which is /also/ very strong.

I mostly like what you're doing with these stats, but there's some serious balance issues. At this rate, I expect a lot of Ter/Xan/Etd Fr + Cat De and Xan Fi + Cat Co, with a smattering of Ter/Etd Bs + Cat Cr. No Ziks, no killing Cr.
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 21:41   #107
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Ive allready considered making the Man O War a kill ship, but it dosnt realy change much for the stats.
U kind of want to steal FR, but not as much BS i think.
And the pods isnt finished, though i think they are the easiest to fix/balance.

**

I change the avenger from DE to FR to make the stats more balanced. First and foremost to make the DE a better option.
I think people overrate the capability of the tarantula, atleast in a CO + Tula setup.
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 22:43   #108
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Zik ships t1's are beyond horrendous, 3 t1 BS and FR, 2 FI and 1 CR, WAT

Actually that seems to be a theme of these stats, as more races have a large percentage of their t1's on one or two classes: ETD 66% on two (FI/FR), ZIK 66% on two (FR/BS), cath has 3/8 ships t1 FR and xan 3/9 DE.

Let me put it like this to show the problem: There are 2 ships with t1 CO. 2 (3) races can attack with co. There are 9 ships targeted FI with t1. One race can attack with fi.

Note 1: I generally very much dislike stats where fr/de can be covered by 3 meta classes when both fi/co and cr/bs are limited to 2.

Note 2: If you make a cr or bs roidclass for xan, you need to make it a damn good one to make up for extra research time or nobody will bother. Getting to siege with xan is a pain and you'll be suffering in value big time the first 600 ticks, lacking core/hct/tt/infra or simply being forced into choosing demo (large value difference compared to choosing one of the better value governments)

Note 3: I can only laugh when people think Cath's success is solely down to being efficient stunners. You need to look at the whole picture. The race bonuses provide a significant advantage for cath every round, as does the start up bonus. Early game cath is way too strong, and while some drop off, a few will always persevere with a value lead. You can sit on 300 roids with corp/core 4 as cath very fast and pretty much be top30 value the first 2 weeks without attacking. While that won't win you any rounds, it's a very solid foundation to improve upon later. Stats change dramatically every round, but this aspect of the game is _very_ rarely changed. I'd love a round where we mixed up race bonuses, or maybe even reset them to equals for all races. This round is as good as any for that.
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Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31) 7th (r58)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 40th(r57) 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 12th (r55), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..

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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 23:00   #109
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zotnam View Post
Zik ships t1's are beyond horrendous, 3 t1 BS and FR, 2 FI and 1 CR, WAT

Actually that seems to be a theme of these stats, as more races have a large percentage of their t1's on one or two classes: ETD 66% on two (FI/FR), ZIK 66% on two (FR/BS), cath has 3/8 ships t1 FR and xan 3/9 DE.

Let me put it like this to show the problem: There are 2 ships with t1 CO. 2 (3) races can attack with co. There are 9 ships targeted FI with t1. One race can attack with fi.

Note 1: I generally very much dislike stats where fr/de can be covered by 3 meta classes when both fi/co and cr/bs are limited to 2.

Note 2: If you make a cr or bs roidclass for xan, you need to make it a damn good one to make up for extra research time or nobody will bother. Getting to siege with xan is a pain and you'll be suffering in value big time the first 600 ticks, lacking core/hct/tt/infra or simply being forced into choosing demo (large value difference compared to choosing one of the better value governments)

Note 3: I can only laugh when people think Cath's success is solely down to being efficient stunners. You need to look at the whole picture. The race bonuses provide a significant advantage for cath every round, as does the start up bonus. Early game cath is way too strong, and while some drop off, a few will always preserve with a value lead. You can sit on 300 roids with corp/core 4 as cath very fast and pretty much be top30 value the first 2 weeks without attacking. While that won't win you any rounds, it's a very solid foundation to improve upon later. Stats change dramatically every round, but this aspect of the game is _very_ rarely changed. I'd love a round where we mixed up race bonuses, or maybe even reset them to equals for all races. This round is as good as any for that.
Atleast with the xan BS you wont get SKed by Ter BS/War Cruiser/SKs
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Unread 22 Jul 2014, 23:56   #110
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Atleast with the xan BS you wont get SKed by Ter BS/War Cruiser/SKs
??
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 08:03   #111
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Some of my impressions...

1. Ter/Etd BS stops FR hardcore. Wouldn't say you could land a lot (probably a buttload of def available and premium eta) but you'll be very hard to roid by fr (and DE) especially in a BS fort.
2. Peacekeeper and Predator are virtually the same ship.
3. Co looks pretty okay now tbh.
4. Lancer could use a bit of a buff. I'd say nerf the Ghost a bit for balancing like mz suggested but that would make BS even stronger. Maybe try switching t1-t2? I dunno tbh.
5. Xan BS is inferior to the other BS, don't really see a reason to go it besides faking issues - this could be intentional of course.
6. Ter in general seems formidable. Ter FR could well be my favourite class atm.
7. I see no reason at all to build Guardians, except maybe to steal more Cat CR. I don't see them stealing War Cruisers and I wouldn't be that excited to steal Zik CR. Which brings me to...
8. Zik CR, it's alright because cat is it's natural teamup partner, gets eaten by Ghosts tho.
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 08:54   #112
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Some of my impressions...
8. Zik CR, it's alright because cat is it's natural teamup partner, gets eaten by Ghosts tho.
No, they get killed by Ghost... They get eaten by Cutters!
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 11:26   #113
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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EMP eff on cath will not be touched.
If anything it will be increasing emp res on ter.
You need to look at this again pal.

Due to the reasons staded above emp is OP (as per usual), especially co. At this rate 50% of the uni will go emp co.
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 13:24   #114
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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You need to look at this again pal.

Due to the reasons staded above emp is OP (as per usual), especially co. At this rate 50% of the uni will go emp co.
Only 10% will go xan then?
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 17:08   #115
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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When I find a moment I am willing to set up Blue_Esper's stats as a counter example (if nothing else, then I'll have two sets of stats "on file" and we can use one in the future, maybe). Someone kick me tomorrow or something.
good stuff
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 21:56   #116
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Beta is running now.
the pods/sks been modified, but they will prolly be adjuste later.
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Unread 23 Jul 2014, 22:08   #117
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Still no zik co pods
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 00:27   #118
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Okey.
Upcomming changes:

Zik:

1. Cutlass will switch T1 with T2
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 03:59   #119
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

With 4 or 5 people "playing", beta is useless.

Terran "feels" playable, FR is okay, BS pretty good. Going to reset and go Cath for what it's worth in the morning.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 05:50   #120
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Terran Fr is trashy at best. Its not even that solid defensivly. Especially with respect to Xan. Centaur gets WTF RAPPED by xan fi. There is no reason to play any other race in this than xan or cath. Both can roid any race they want, and Xan has great faking oppertunity with fr/fi like always.

Also there are 9 ships that T1 Fi 9 out of 36(9 non-pod/sk from each race x5) Where as there are only 6!!!! Fi in the entire STAT SET!
Yet there are 2 Ships that T1 Co that 2/36 ships that target Co where there are 3 roiding fleets that use Co and 9 Co in the stat set. A lot of this has to change if you want this set to be balanced. You man underestimate what T1 vs T2 actually means B-Butcher.

I think we need to scrap this set of stats and move onto another set from another stat maker that atleast understands what stats need to be before you can even start analyzing them.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 06:40   #121
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Shocked this has made it to the betastage in its current form
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 06:50   #122
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Terran Fr is trashy at best. Its not even that solid defensivly. Especially with respect to Xan. Centaur gets WTF RAPPED by xan fi. There is no reason to play any other race in this than xan or cath. Both can roid any race they want, and Xan has great faking oppertunity with fr/fi like always.

Also there are 9 ships that T1 Fi 9 out of 36(9 non-pod/sk from each race x5) Where as there are only 6!!!! Fi in the entire STAT SET!
Yet there are 2 Ships that T1 Co that 2/36 ships that target Co where there are 3 roiding fleets that use Co and 9 Co in the stat set. A lot of this has to change if you want this set to be balanced. You man underestimate what T1 vs T2 actually means B-Butcher.

I think we need to scrap this set of stats and move onto another set from another stat maker that atleast understands what stats need to be before you can even start analyzing them.
Okey.
Lets take it one step back here.
For everyone to understand where you are comming from, we gotta take them all back a few rounds. Lets look at r55 stats: http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=4&round=55
Here we got 7 ships targgeting FI T1, towards 6 FI in the total game, even though given the fact that there is only two roiding classes each race.

So lets look at the anti CO in your case.
Ter got no anti CO in allie eta, so no point even mentioning them.

CAT has been blessed by the stats maker with the fearless little Spider, i cant remeber anyone building the Spider this round, but im sure it would do great in my stats aswell if i had been brave enough to include it.

The mighty Xans is lucky enough to be equipt with two ships that fires CO T1 this round. The only problem was that there were noone stupid enough to go xan with these stats, beside some fools in Apprime that decided to choose the race without looking at the stats.

Now you got zik, they got only one ship that fires CO in total, and thats not within the allie eta, NEXT!

At last we got ETD, they suffered the same problems as xan basicly, so it was only a few people spread over HR/FAnG and PATSA that decided to go for this race, lucky for them they had a life saving T1 CO ship.



I dont think you even know what Planetarion means Tiamata.
I think we should just scrap the whole game of PA, and move on to another game where people with access to commenting on anything aint thick as a fcking brick.


I pray to god that Appocmaster will re-run either you fabolous stats of R55 or SantaCruz "atleast not defensive" stats of R57
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 07:13   #123
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Someone remind me again why BB is allowed to represent PA Team?..
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 07:19   #124
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Someone remind me again why BB is allowed to represent PA Team?..
Im not representing PA team?
Im a player of the game.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 07:30   #125
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Except B-Butcher I am not making the stats this round and neither should you. With your total lack of knowledge and any idea of what they need to be balanced, and by your lack of being able to refute any claims that are brought to your stats means that you either don't care enough to balance them(should be removed from making stats) or b) that your unable to justify your decisions(should be removed from making stats) or c) that you just don't understand where people are coming from when they ask questions(should be removed from making stats)

These stats are MILES away from being any ally balanced or useable. The fact that you cant even balance the roiding classes tells me that you just don't give a crap about anything.

Cath/ Xan have 3 roid classes the two races that people are most likely to be pulled towards. And Giving Terran/zik 2 roid classes not to mention giving terran just embarrassing A/C and making Zik worthless to play by not giving them effective kill ships. I think you might be able to fix the stats if you were able to step back and look at the big picture instead of each race and each class as an alliance setup. Its not the stats makers job to make the alliance strats fit into the stats, in fact your only job is to make 5 races that function and operate seperatly and allow the players, alliances, galaxies decide their strategy.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 07:48   #126
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Except B-Butcher I am not making the stats this round and neither should you. With your total lack of knowledge and any idea of what they need to be balanced, and by your lack of being able to refute any claims that are brought to your stats means that you either don't care enough to balance them(should be removed from making stats) or b) that your unable to justify your decisions(should be removed from making stats) or c) that you just don't understand where people are coming from when they ask questions(should be removed from making stats)

These stats are MILES away from being any ally balanced or useable. The fact that you cant even balance the roiding classes tells me that you just don't give a crap about anything.

Cath/ Xan have 3 roid classes the two races that people are most likely to be pulled towards. And Giving Terran/zik 2 roid classes not to mention giving terran just embarrassing A/C and making Zik worthless to play by not giving them effective kill ships. I think you might be able to fix the stats if you were able to step back and look at the big picture instead of each race and each class as an alliance setup. Its not the stats makers job to make the alliance strats fit into the stats, in fact your only job is to make 5 races that function and operate seperatly and allow the players, alliances, galaxies decide their strategy.
I have no intention what so ever balancing the roiding classes to giving each race 3 pods each or what ever your are aiming at. Its done on purpose, and with a idea on how to make it work.
Balancing stats is NOT about making the T1/T2 target equal amount of classes, A/C-D/C looking good, equal amount of ships/pods for each race or what ever.
If Clouds and BF thinks CO is OP, great, let them go all CO then.
If you or someone else think FI is good, then go speak to Nelito he just contacting me to let me know of his frustration over the FI always being too weak.
If you say CO is gonna be the only race choice, then go ask what the others are actualy planning, last i heard alliancces was considering FR/DE.
If someone claim zik is unplayable, then be it, 5 equaly "self covering" or "self roiding" races just isnt gonna happend with these stats. Yes zik is weak, but as someone pointed out earlier 50% of the univers was gonna be CO, so perhaps zik will actualy pay out good after all.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 07:51   #127
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

And no, i dont belive your approach of just making stats "look good" is the right approach.
You cannot make reasonable strats out of stats that arnt coherent within the race options.
PaX/PaN is made up this way that you simply have a hard time playing without a alliance, you wont even be allowed to be in certain gals without being in a alliance, making the stats for the solo game experince just aint gonna cut it with the current mechanisems/playerbase.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 07:56   #128
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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I dont think you even know what Planetarion means Tiamata.
I think we should just scrap the whole game of PA, and move on to another game where people with access to commenting on anything aint thick as a fcking brick
This is amazing!!!

Tia you make the dullest stats ever, keep harping on about balance when true balance is boring as fck!

Keep going butcher I wanted a fun round of pa
!

Say no to balance!!!!
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:03   #129
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Sounds so idiot discuss like childrens here.
Apocco already told he gonna give blue esper stats a chance.
Let BB end his stats asap and move on to find the best one. Stop all this emo things about past rounds and who know more about a ****ing game.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:05   #130
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Butcher: you heard of anyone going zik, or xan bs?
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:08   #131
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Well it didn't take me long to see Fr will be the master class with Butchers stats. Only emp fire first when fighting a Fr team up and theres no bs/cr class that can stop a team up without emp. Fixing Fr's power over every other class would be a good start.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:15   #132
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Atleast with the xan BS you wont get SKed by Ter BS/War Cruiser/SKs
And i think u should pay more attention to his feedback.
The best one i saw here.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:17   #133
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

With current shipstats, I'd go Zik just for the cutlass, since in the Co vs Co battles, having more cutlass is what makes you win. Tho with current emp efficiency, the co might still just end up freezing eachother with no dmg done. And simply adding more beetles or defenders would be better than cutlass.
I guess it will depend on if there will be a decent amount of FR/DE around, so co fleets have to get Vipers/Smugglers too.

Besides that, I think the negativity in here is impressive. Really makes people want to put in the work to make a set of shipstats
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:20   #134
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

etd/xan fr team ups will dominate pretty much unstoppable
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:45   #135
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Well it didn't take me long to see Fr will be the master class with Butchers stats. Only emp fire first when fighting a Fr team up and theres no bs/cr class that can stop a team up without emp. Fixing Fr's power over every other class would be a good start.
Thank you very much.
Atleast someone who can read it in a grander scale.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:47   #136
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
With current shipstats, I'd go Zik just for the cutlass, since in the Co vs Co battles, having more cutlass is what makes you win. Tho with current emp efficiency, the co might still just end up freezing eachother with no dmg done. And simply adding more beetles or defenders would be better than cutlass.
I guess it will depend on if there will be a decent amount of FR/DE around, so co fleets have to get Vipers/Smugglers too.

Besides that, I think the negativity in here is impressive. Really makes people want to put in the work to make a set of shipstats
Check out the emp resistance of the dagger.
It stops to some extent CO/DE emp
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 09:54   #137
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Check out the emp resistance of the dagger.
It stops to some extent CO/DE emp
It does but it is a very strange way to use a ship that does not target either co or de. How often do you send flack just to send flack when that ship is otherwise useless against the incs you are sending them against? Clearly it helps Zik to then use their cutlass or corsairs but you are not going to get fleets of daggers built on the premise that they will fly around absorbing emp! Particularly as at the moment it does not look like there will be many ziks - I have seen criticism of zik's but no one saying they actually look a great fleet so if everyone thinks like this forum then there wont be many around.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 10:12   #138
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Shocked this has made it to the betastage in its current form
Keep in mind, "beta" doesn't actually mean anything. It's just a way to give people access to a bcalc and detailed analysis page.

Quote:
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Someone remind me again why BB is allowed to represent PA Team?..
Stats makers do not represent PA Team. Everyone is free to design sets of stats. Appoco merely decides which set to use. If none are created, he can ask someone to make or adapt a set. This does not make them part of PA Team.



Incidentally, I'd like to see Blue_Esper have a go. I am not impressed by Butcher's stats so far, and am seeing little progress. If we're to take a single target switch as an indication of the scale of the changes yet to come, they will never become playable.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 12:20   #139
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Mzy:

What are you "not impressed" with, and what progress are you actualy expecting?

So far we have heard that CO is overpowered, and that FR needs to be nerphed.
The only thing people seem to agree on with me, and each other is that zik is problematic.
While some want CO pods for zik(wich is out of the question for me), some think just adding more armor to them might be more than enough.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 12:24   #140
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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It does but it is a very strange way to use a ship that does not target either co or de. How often do you send flack just to send flack when that ship is otherwise useless against the incs you are sending them against? Clearly it helps Zik to then use their cutlass or corsairs but you are not going to get fleets of daggers built on the premise that they will fly around absorbing emp! Particularly as at the moment it does not look like there will be many ziks - I have seen criticism of zik's but no one saying they actually look a great fleet so if everyone thinks like this forum then there wont be many around.
Depends on how much EMP it will be around.
The expert in this thread has said a lot of diffrent things, 60% will be xan/cat, and it will be 50% going etd/cat CO, and im sure there will be some that will go for the DE aswell.
The whole idea is to nerph the effect of the EMP, but if they are EMP resistance enough to make an impact im not sure of.
Having cutlass/corsairs getting a lot of fire on the EMP will perhaps make it worthwhile even loosing a few roids for if you can get a decent steal/salvage.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 13:32   #141
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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So far we have heard that CO is overpowered, and that FR needs to be nerphed.
So do those people's views balance out? Possibly if so then leave both as they are.

In practice however they are not always talking about the same thing. Are people saying Fr are overpowered against Co? And that Co are overpowered against Fr? NO they are not.

For Fr what people are saying is the ability to fort makes them good. Not much you can do about this. But the one thing you can do that people are asking for is to make the Ghost less good against Bs/Cr so reducing the power of fr teams. If it is still a concern you could boost the Marauder which has pretty low DC and AC for a steal ship.

For Co the problem people are crying about is not that Co powers through Fr, because they don't - or rather they need high eff against Fr because the Fr will often be in forts. Instead the problem is with alliance defence. This means the solution here is either to reduce the power of the beetle or to increase the emp resistance of other fi apart from the dagger.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 13:43   #142
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
So do those people's views balance out? Possibly if so then leave both as they are.

In practice however they are not always talking about the same thing. Are people saying Fr are overpowered against Co? And that Co are overpowered against Fr? NO they are not.

For Fr what people are saying is the ability to fort makes them good. Not much you can do about this. But the one thing you can do that people are asking for is to make the Ghost less good against Bs/Cr so reducing the power of fr teams. If it is still a concern you could boost the Marauder which has pretty low DC and AC for a steal ship.

For Co the problem people are crying about is not that Co powers through Fr, because they don't - or rather they need high eff against Fr because the Fr will often be in forts. Instead the problem is with alliance defence. This means the solution here is either to reduce the power of the beetle or to increase the emp resistance of other fi apart from the dagger.
BS is allready quite strong, i dont think playing around with that will help much.

CR can be adjusted, still dosnt leave much options without making the pirate a kill ship

So basicly you are saying that the EMP resistance of the xan FI is too little?
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 13:50   #143
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

eh? where did I say any of that? I did not say anything about Cr/Bs except to weaken one of the ships that targets them - the Ghost. If you are concerned that this makes Cr/Bs too good then you could improve a de ship that targets them.

I dont mention Zik Cr at all... but etd De instead! (you mentioned there was a consensus on Zik being underpowered and since it a consensus I ignored it in my post which was meant to show that your apparently contradictory advice is in fact not!)

The only thing I said you seem to have engaged with is increasing emp resistance of xan Fi... when you already know my preferred fi to increase emp resistance of is the Interceptor! This is because like Mz I think Xan fi is op because of its high DC and AC compared to normal (though with that in mind its emp res is thankfully no better than usual!)
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 13:51   #144
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

the inits of fr is the problem, xan can just spam Tzen and bomber with pulsar and etd spam avenger ghost and defender and just sit in big fort gals all round and gg the universe
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 15:05   #145
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

In a vacuum I agree with you BB that BS may look good. But in practice, BS fleets won't be much played at all. The reason for this is the follwing;

a) Going BS means building four ships, while other setups allows lower eta and only having to build three ships total
b) With FI/CO and FR looking very strong it means that a big proportion of the uni will want to have anti CRBS as their primary alliance defship, and the other big portion of the uni will have huge FR fleets to either fake or send real against CRBS with their high ETA
c) Getting CRBS means wasting researchpoints which could have been spent on tt/core and hct.

In sum, this will lead to very few people going (DE,) CR and BS. Simple as that.

Now, if only we flipped the researchtimes so CRBS was eta 8, FRDE was eta 9 and FICO was eta 10....
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 15:09   #146
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

Blue_Esper has managed to prove me wrong immediately, people are not just concerned about the power the ghost gives to teamups!

However if the Tzen were not to have the initiative over the pulsar then how would Fr roid things apart from by blundering through? Should they just always pick on Cats? It would also mean that Xan Fi has the initiative over EVERY killship that targets them.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 15:21   #147
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post

Now, if only we flipped the researchtimes so CRBS was eta 8, FRDE was eta 9 and FICO was eta 10....
Or ETA per individual ship, not fixed based on it's shipclass.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 15:25   #148
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Blue_Esper has managed to prove me wrong immediately, people are not just concerned about the power the ghost gives to teamups!

However if the Tzen were not to have the initiative over the pulsar then how would Fr roid things apart from by blundering through? Should they just always pick on Cats? It would also mean that Xan Fi has the initiative over EVERY killship that targets them.
they also out init all the DE kill ships aswell
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 21:18   #149
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
What are you "not impressed" with, and what progress are you actualy expecting?
Didn't you see my post?

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Now, if only we flipped the researchtimes so CRBS was eta 8, FRDE was eta 9 and FICO was eta 10....
If only.
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Unread 24 Jul 2014, 21:20   #150
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Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion

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Didn't you see my post?


If only.
Maybe i didnt bother to read it throughly.
cant you just tell me again
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