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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 10:50   #1
M0RPH3US
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Additional Class - Research Tree

Nano Drones

Nano Drones are small unmaned vessels travelling on defensive missions only with a maximum speed of eta6 (in alliance).
They only target Pods, due to detecting the asteroid stealin beam energy.
However there is a chance the nano drone will have a software problem (microscoft what can u see) and they dont detect an enemy.
Nano Drones land on small astropods (fi/co class) and self destroy. Enough drones on an astropod will destroy it - depending on stats guru - lets say three.

Nano Drones are pretty expensive and there is no guarantee that your calculations are correct, cause of the malfunction.
Due to their speed Nano Drones are not able to be targeted by any class.
However the further you research em the less chance for the software to malfunction.
Also Nano Drones enable a 4th fleetslot, however only to be used by Nano Drones.

Research Tree:
1) Nano Drone Technologie
-> enables production of Nano Drones and enables a 4th fleetslot, chance to hit and astropod = 50%
2) Improved Nano Technologie
-> Nano Drones now have a 65% chance to hit an astropod
3) I-Nano Technologie
-> Nano Drones now have a 75% chance to hit an astropod
4) Nano Lin-Ux Technologie
-> Nano Drones now have a 85% chance to hit an astropod


I got the flue and my head makes me sick atm, but i kinda like this idea, and however it might make fr/de class valuable for once.

Discuss please

over and out
m0
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 10:58   #2
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Shit idea - next!
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 11:03   #3
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

ahh the one who quits PA in tick120 cause he lost roids

hi there
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 11:20   #4
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

So extra eta advantage even more against higher hulls. Not targetable pod destroyer, which doesnt even waste fleet slots ? This sounds abit too stronk
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 11:26   #5
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

they only target small pods
aka fi/co class
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 12:18   #6
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

I have 3 objections. I've sorted them in order from most trivial to most fundamental:

1) Odds become certainties when applies to sufficiently high numbers. 980 nano-drones at 75% against 700 pods (5% more drones than needed) would have a 99.5% chance of successfully killing all pods. 1026 nano-drones (10% more than needed) would have a 99.99996% chance of successfully killing all pods. Look up cumulative binomial distribution.

2) Uh, ok, so I forgot what my second objection was while I was calculating the exact numbers above. How silly. I assure you, you would all have been convinced.

3) This idea makes the game more defensive. If the last few rounds have shown us anything, it should be that the game is already more defensive than is good for it, especially when one considers the variance the stats cause.
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 12:24   #7
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

well

regarding
1) to stop 700 fi pods youīd need about 2100 drones all hitting - no idead how to calculate that if only 75% f.e. hit or the chance is that....
while the drones would be way more expensive then the pods are
while players would have to sacrifice value and research time for these special drones

2) i cant come up with something good to endanger that argument i am afraid

3) the game beeing defensive is due to the fact that ppl recall their attacks to save value
in this special case u could still land an attack, obviously only loosing the value for the pods (in a szenario of only drone defence)
while still havin a slim chance to still cap some roids - due to the malfuntional stuff

if at all this suggestion is a threat to fi/co attacks
which isnt a bad idea imo, seeing the amount of fi/co rounds we have to deal with.
aswell it would probably reduce the time fi/co can work like ace to the first 2/3 of the round

=> maybe for once we see fr/de pods in action again
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Unread 17 Jun 2012, 13:47   #8
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Removing the fico class(which no loss eta advantage drones basicly do) would also make frde more viable.. I prefer tia's approach
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Unread 18 Jun 2012, 09:43   #9
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

The basic question to me would be: what exactly does it solve that connot be solved by ship stats?

If nothing, what exactly would it ADD that we really miss?
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Unread 18 Jun 2012, 13:05   #10
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

well i think it would add another dimension to the game, as it would probably make fi/co viable for only 2/3 of the round.
and if not at least will reduce caprate of fi/co fleets
while at the same time another research tree will tie up research points and enhance the time not everyone has everything researched, which are the fun times imo


if it was just about stats, then i have to ask why wasnt there a fr/de round in ages ? yes because both fi/co and bs/cr do target them, while fi/co and bs/cr is only targeted by 2 classes.
At least in the usual stats our makers do - must be ages since a fi/co targeted bs/cr or the other way round.

it probably would force players/alliances to only use fi/co on short term and switch at some point
or have ppl mass pods and others mass drones - aswell eating value not used on anti fr/de/cr/bs

plus - it would be something new to experience - like pds as in the past or covops
fail or not fail, but something new to learn
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Unread 19 Jun 2012, 12:29   #11
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

solution to defensive rounds/stats = removing all ships except pod class then its just a matter of how often you send ships and how often you land on big planets.
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Unread 19 Jun 2012, 18:11   #12
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
solution to defensive rounds/stats = removing all ships except pod class then its just a matter of how often you send ships and how often you land on big planets.
I prefer all emp, then at least it feels like i can have some fun
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Unread 19 Jun 2012, 18:44   #13
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Just a question in general:
Do you think that ideas like this can make it into the game? I once suggested (like others) an alternative targetting system. Even that was considered as "too much work". Now evaluate your chances for this.
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Unread 19 Jun 2012, 22:44   #14
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

To be honest, how would this make the game more interesting at all?

Let's assume your 85% success example, and let's assume 1 nano probe kills one pod (for ease of calculation)

Example 1:

An attacker attacks you, but he sends only 5k illusions. If we want to disable those pods, we need 5000/85 * 100 = 5883 nano drones.

Example 2:

The same attacker sends 10 million xan fi at you, including 5000 illusions.
You need... HEY.... 5883 nano drones.

-----

Morpheus, how exactly is this an enrichment for the game? You added even more stuff that makes it worse: nothing can kill them, and you get a slot thats always usable for nano drones.

So, let me summarize: you want unstoppable ships that can kill all fi/co pods in an attack fleet, no matter how much fleet was sent along with those pods........

Please, explain to me, were you drunk when you made this up?
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Unread 19 Jun 2012, 22:49   #15
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
3) the game beeing defensive is due to the fact that ppl recall their attacks to save value
Eh? Stats are considered defensive because people recall? I thought it was the other way around: Defence/defensive stats make people recall....
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Unread 20 Jun 2012, 10:13   #16
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Hey,

well i am not sure with those calculations since they assume that 85% of all sent drones hit.
but somehow i had in mind that the chance for each single drone to target an astropod would be 85%.
So that allows the possibility of you sending those 5883 nano drones and no single one of those actually doing something.

Maybe the additional Fleetslot is too much though.

No wasnt drunk btw, but had the flu - which kinda has the same effects

regarding what Korsan asked, nope i dont think anything which requires coding will implemented :P
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Unread 20 Jun 2012, 10:15   #17
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy View Post
Eh? Stats are considered defensive because people recall? I thought it was the other way around: Defence/defensive stats make people recall....
you cant land on planets which kill too much of your value - thats what makes the game defensive
stats, battle engine, salvage rule
all share their part.
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Unread 20 Jun 2012, 10:46   #18
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
well i am not sure with those calculations since they assume that 85% of all sent drones hit.
but somehow i had in mind that the chance for each single drone to target an astropod would be 85%.
So that allows the possibility of you sending those 5883 nano drones and no single one of those actually doing something.
I don't think you understand probability.

Go and read the link mz posted earlier.
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Unread 20 Jun 2012, 21:03   #19
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
you cant land on planets which kill too much of your value - thats what makes the game defensive
stats, battle engine, salvage rule
all share their part.
I was merely referring to the fact you turned around cause and effect. You basicly said: if people recall, THEN the stats are defensive. Which is of course not true :-)

The other way around it makes much more sense: if stats are defensive, people will generally recall more then when stats are none-defensive.
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Unread 20 Jun 2012, 21:13   #20
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
Hey,

well i am not sure with those calculations since they assume that 85% of all sent drones hit.
but somehow i had in mind that the chance for each single drone to target an astropod would be 85%.
So that allows the possibility of you sending those 5883 nano drones and no single one of those actually doing something.
And:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Odds become certainties when applies to sufficiently high numbers. 980 nano-drones at 75% against 700 pods (5% more drones than needed) would have a 99.5% chance of successfully killing all pods. 1026 nano-drones (10% more than needed) would have a 99.99996% chance of successfully killing all pods. Look up cumulative binomial distribution.
Morpheus,

As mz are explained, the higher the number of ships, the closer the actual outcome will be to 85% (in your example).

If you have 1 ship firing, and you have 85% chance of success, then its still all or nothing: it shoots, or it doesnt shoot. Statistically, if you let 100 ships fire, about 85 will have success. Might be a bit less, might be a bit more, and theoretically, all might misfire. But statistics is just theory, in normal day life, about 85% will have success, as long as the amount of ships is large enough (the population/sample).

So to summarize, in a calculation, you can safely assume that 85% will hit successfully, so you need:

amount_needed_to_stop_all_pods = <amount_of_pods> / <hit_success%> * 100 * <pod_armour> / <nano_probe_damage>

(where <hit_success% is a number from 1-100)
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Unread 20 Jun 2012, 22:27   #21
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US View Post
well i am not sure with those calculations since they assume that 85% of all sent drones hit.
but somehow i had in mind that the chance for each single drone to target an astropod would be 85%.
So that allows the possibility of you sending those 5883 nano drones and no single one of those actually doing something.
This is what I tried to show with my calculation. The odds of that actually happening are 1 in 3.6e4878. Just to give you a rough idea of the magnitude of that number: that's approximately 1 in 3582836108880015776572388681612400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000.

If you sent a trillion fleets every second, to a trillion planets, for the remainder of the lifespan of the universe (ours, not the 7 week one), that would still be less likely to happen than being stuck by lightning simultaneously a thousand times.

You think I'm kidding, but I'm dead ****ing serious.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 20 Jun 2012 at 22:31. Reason: Ah, I should've read down to Remy's post.
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Unread 23 Jun 2012, 11:58   #22
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

all ideas that make the game more defensive should be instantly dismissed, sorry m0
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Unread 24 Jun 2012, 07:28   #23
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Re: Additional Class - Research Tree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
This is what I tried to show with my calculation. The odds of that actually happening are 1 in 3.6e4878. Just to give you a rough idea of the magnitude of that number: that's approximately 1 in ..... (lots of zeros)

If you sent a trillion fleets every second, to a trillion planets, for the remainder of the lifespan of the universe (ours, not the 7 week one), that would still be less likely to happen than being stuck by lightning simultaneously a thousand times.

You think I'm kidding, but I'm dead ****ing serious.
I recalculated, i think you missed a zero
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