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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 20:10   #1
stay_posi
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Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by PA Manual;
-A Landing Scan brought in in place of Surface Scan, working when ETA 1 to attack/defend a target, and displaying the number of attacking/defending fleets at ETA 1. It ignores distorters

Ignores distorters? Reasoning behind this being _______ ?
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 20:45   #2
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Re: Landing Scans

Im with Posi on this one, seems a bit silly to have them ignoring distorters, as that defeats a lot of the purpose of them : /
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 20:48   #3
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Re: Landing Scans

Yeah, its insane, this game loosing all challenges now.

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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 21:32   #4
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Re: Landing Scans

It does defeat distorters when there is no defense, but when there is _any_ defense at all it doesn't defeat distorters because the attacker has no idea at all what the defenders sent. So a cath could send one ship and the attacker would have no idea that it wasn't an entire fleet. So yes it does make distorters less effective, but it does not entirely negate their effect. Additionally it does make it so non allied players can land a lot more of their attacks as they will not need to rely on a scanner to scan for them. This is a big plus in my opinion and was one of the driving factors in implementing this scan.
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 21:42   #5
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Re: Landing Scans

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It does defeat distorters when there is no defense, but when there is _any_ defense at all it doesn't defeat distorters because the attacker has no idea at all what the defenders sent.
The attacker won't be able to see that the defenders have sent regardless of the target's dists, as Landing scans don't show fleet amounts / types etc. So having dists makes no difference in that sense

Quote:
So a cath could send one ship and the attacker would have no idea that it wasn't an entire fleet. So yes it does make distorters less effective, but it does not entirely negate their effect.
The entire point of a wave distorter (in this scenario) is to block the attackers ability to see whether or not he is clear to land. Landing scans completely bypass wave distorters, and allow the attacker to see the status of his attack. And considering that wave distorters dont (for lack of a better word) distort the scan itself; landing scans do infact completely negate their effect.

Quote:
Additionally it does make it so non allied players can land a lot more of their attacks as they will not need to rely on a scanner to scan for them. This is a big plus in my opinion and was one of the driving factors in implementing this scan.
So one of the driving factor of this scan is because non allied players cant scan distwhores? Im sorry, but i thought that was the entire point of wave distorters?

Besides - #transcendancy
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 22:24   #6
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Re: Landing Scans

So basically this is just another blow against the effectiveness of distorters. Why dont we just cut the crap and take them out completely instead of nerfing them out of the game.

I think its pretty funny that as time goes on in the PA universe, our defences against certain things seem to lower instead of what they should do, improve. a bit counter-productive dont you think?

Distorters should be able to stop any scan no matter what it is or what it happens to be called, and if you cant get through, well, thats what covert ops are for (or free scan channels).
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 22:46   #7
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by stay_posi View Post
Besides - #transcendancy
#transcendancy and #scans are at best crude patches for poor game design. Their existence is no excuse to refrain from improving the design.

I am unsure whether I like the whole "ignores distorters" thing, though I pushed (unsuccessfully, it appears) for not ignoring distorters. On one hand I would like everyone to be able to scan for themselves, removing the requirement to have dedicated scanners. On the other I think disting should be a legitimate strategy rivalling FCs, which is hasn't been since the removal of the FC limit.

It's a dilemma!
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 22:56   #8
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Re: Landing Scans

introdusing landingscans makes the game even more lazy, wots the point spending time to get ur planet as protected as possible when all can bypass ur effort with a simple scan.... with all this prelaunch, start and stop research, quing constr. they mite aswell accept bots again, coz it wont make any difference anymore.

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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 23:07   #9
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Re: Landing Scans

How does it make the game more lazy? :|
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 23:20   #10
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
How does it make the game more lazy? :|
You dont have to put any effort getting a early newsie or jpg. We dont have to ensure our dist is running all time, this is insane

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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 23:42   #11
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
How does it make the game more lazy? :|
Next round they prolly have a "prelaunchscan" The duke of Norway 2:2:2 Attack 12 ticks, 1234 shippis, 1000 is cloack and it contains both co and de class it will hit ur planet in 16 ticks :crymeariver:
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 23:54   #12
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Re: Landing Scans

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Next round they prolly have a "prelaunchscan" The duke of Norway 2:2:2 Attack 12 ticks, 1234 shippis, 1000 is cloack and it contains both co and de class it will hit ur planet in 16 ticks :crymeariver:
Dude, patheticalisms such as this aren't cool
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Unread 14 Oct 2008, 23:55   #13
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Re: Landing Scans

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Dude, patheticalisms such as this aren't cool
Nope, it aint cool, but it mite be a realety.......


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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 00:07   #14
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Re: Landing Scans

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I DONT GET IT
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 00:10   #15
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Re: Landing Scans

well, if it goes that far, there wont be much of a point in playing.

But anyways, yes, it does make the game more lazy at least half of the time because this answers the pivotal question of "did my target get defense?" And while it is only a yes or no question and the "yes" half of it will still require more work, it means it is a shortcut to find out if there is not.

While I dont mind a lot of the shortcuts that have been taken thus far, one that further negates the efficiency of distorters is not one I can back.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 00:19   #16
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Salminator View Post
You dont have to put any effort getting a early newsie or jpg
4 ticks for JGP
1 tick for landing scan

lots of info from JGP
crappy info from landing scan

I trust you get the point.

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Originally Posted by Salminator View Post
We dont have to ensure our dist is running all time, this is insane
I don't get what you're saying.

P.S. Slippery slope arguments suck.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 00:32   #17
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Re: Landing Scans

The point of distorters as a legitimate strategy is two fold. 1) my target can't FA me so I can fake on him and 2) nobody can scan me so nobody will launch on me.

All this does is make it so that people who can already scan you, presuming people don't just launch blind on planets these days, don't always have to have their friend/ally scanner who scanned you in the first place online from eta 4-1 to jgp you. So what this is actually doing is, er, reducing the need for scanners to be super-active. Wow, what a crime against the game. I think it shows how retarded most of you are that we get a thread about this destroying the effectiveness of distorters but we had dick all complaints when they removed the fc limit and made it impossible to be immune to amp/dist cov-ops without scs in the same round.

I mean seriously unless you think there's some sort of skill involved in spending half an hour trying to find a scan...
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 01:20   #18
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Re: Landing Scans

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So what this is actually doing is, er, reducing the need for scanners to be super-active.
As a matter of fact, lets just save scanners the trouble altogether and just remove dists from the game yeah? ¬_¬

The point is that a wave distorter's job is to distort any incoming scans. Whether or not you chose one of the strategies mentioned above has nothing to do with that fact that Landing Scans completely contradict what a dist is meant to do.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 01:40   #19
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by stay_posi View Post
As a matter of fact, lets just save scanners the trouble altogether and just remove dists from the game yeah? ¬_¬
Yeah. Because that's what I was saying. I also recommended raping children in case you missed that one.

Quote:
The point is that a wave distorter's job is to distort any incoming scans. Whether or not you chose one of the strategies mentioned above has nothing to do with that fact that Landing Scans completely contradict what a dist is meant to do.
This is quite true. It is however, in the context of the purpose of building distorters, entirely irrelevant. If, for example, pateam introduced a new unblockable scan which revealed the size of your population would this impact on the usefulness of your distorters?
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 02:00   #20
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Re: Landing Scans

Decent addition to the game
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 05:49   #21
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
It does defeat distorters when there is no defense, but when there is _any_ defense at all it doesn't defeat distorters because the attacker has no idea at all what the defenders sent. So a cath could send one ship and the attacker would have no idea that it wasn't an entire fleet. So yes it does make distorters less effective, but it does not entirely negate their effect. Additionally it does make it so non allied players can land a lot more of their attacks as they will not need to rely on a scanner to scan for them. This is a big plus in my opinion and was one of the driving factors in implementing this scan.
FYI: As I, as well as many others, can tell you, non-allied planets have just as much chance to land attacks based on scans as allied planets. Why? Cause they can go scans first. The last 2 rounds I have been an ally scanner, and used the fact that I went scans first to my advantage. I could attack whenever I wanted, whoever I wanted (as long as they weren't allied ofc) and never needed to hope and wonder if someone was there to scan. And if I couldn't scan them (not often) I just didn't attack them. A non-allied planet can do the same, with similar results.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 06:48   #22
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Re: Landing Scans

Because it makes sense that people have to spend over a week researching scans before they can participate in the game's core activity.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 12:10   #23
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Re: Landing Scans

It seems to me that there has not been very many ppl disting to the max since r25, The majority of dists are built to stop inc scans, the amount of random allianceless players hitting any given planet is going to be far lower than the alliance attacks scanned by an alliance scanner, also the person who gets mercilessly hit by the random allianceless peon will likely find a cheaper solution to the plague through joining an alliance to defend themselves than through distwhoring.

So basically the usefulness of distorters as a block to any scans except the incoming scan is so compromised by the existence of the dedicated alliance scanner that I think this is a storm in a teacup

I like the Landing scan, im not bothered if it penetrates dists or not cos i dont see it makes much difference to me as someone in an alliance.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 12:27   #24
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Re: Landing Scans

I like this idea, very much. I feel it's vital to a more accessible game, it allows people to just pick up and play. We need people to actually be able to "get into" the game if we want them to stay.

On the issue of how this effects Distwhores, I really can't how it detracts from that strategy in any significant way. In truth, if you're the kind of person who builds 147 distorters in PA these days it can really only be because you like annoying people. It's certainly not because you want to be score competitive because since FC's became uncapped that's impossible.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 12:53   #25
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Achilles View Post
I feel it's vital to a more accessible game, it allows people to just pick up and play. We need people to actually be able to "get into" the game if we want them to stay.
I agree. There are three or four other changes I would like to see:
Swap development and unit scan (constructions and research is irrelevant to the starting player)
Swap news and incoming scan (ditto for news scans)
Cloaked units appear on unit scans (xan's advantage is faking, not invisibility)
Optionally, the removal of advanced unit scans (redundant if cloaked units show on unit scans)
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 14:06   #26
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Re: Landing Scans

absolutly pointless scan.. as someone above told that if someone just launches 1 cath ship to def then according to scan its 1 def fleet and u dont have nemore info neways.. so its basicly the same as blind landing.. ppl will still use newsies in the first attacks and jgps afterwards. this scan wont give anything to the game and also wont hurt it, but that just says its pointless..

also wtf with players that dont have ally and where are they supposed to get scans???? ehm they either research to get the scans or they join some ally where they meet the requirements, to b able not to waste time on researching. there are many diffrent ones to choose from and im 100% sure that every single player that is playing planetarion is welcomed to at least 1 alliance
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 14:17   #27
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
absolutly pointless scan.. as someone above told that if someone just launches 1 cath ship to def then according to scan its 1 def fleet and u dont have nemore info neways.. so its basicly the same as blind landing.. ppl will still use newsies in the first attacks and jgps afterwards. this scan wont give anything to the game and also wont hurt it, but that just says its pointless..
I pushed for giving more information on the scan, to basically make it a JGP scan that only shows the flees which are defending against you, if you're eta4 or less. Unfortunately that didn't happen.

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also wtf with players that dont have ally and where are they supposed to get scans???? ehm they either research to get the scans or they join some ally where they meet the requirements, to b able not to waste time on researching. there are many diffrent ones to choose from and im 100% sure that every single player that is playing planetarion is welcomed to at least 1 alliance
We're not talking about people who know how to play the game. We're trying to help people in the stage before that, the people who happen to stumble upon PA, think it looks interesting, and sign up. You can't expect these people to form or join alliances in a game they basically joined on a whim, before they even know if they're going to like it. Forcing them to either research up to news scan (at least!) or join an alliance before they get a half-decent impression of the game is retarded.

Check out c200 on sandmans if you will. These are mostly people who never really played PA at all. These are the people we should be trying to attract. Now I'm not saying that this new scan will suddenly make a PA addict out of every person who signs up, but it will help.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 16:22   #28
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by neroon View Post
absolutly pointless scan.. as someone above told that if someone just launches 1 cath ship to def then according to scan its 1 def fleet and u dont have nemore info neways.. so its basicly the same as blind landing.. ppl will still use newsies in the first attacks and jgps afterwards. this scan wont give anything to the game and also wont hurt it, but that just says its pointless..

also wtf with players that dont have ally and where are they supposed to get scans???? ehm they either research to get the scans or they join some ally where they meet the requirements, to b able not to waste time on researching. there are many diffrent ones to choose from and im 100% sure that every single player that is playing planetarion is welcomed to at least 1 alliance
Most people with alliances won't be using this scan anyways, and the people without an alliance won't be getting many 1 ship def fleets anyways.

So by implementing this nothing really changes for the most of us, but the game will be more accessible for the newer players and people who go solo and don't use irc.

No point in mass constructing dists this round anyways as Hanzl will be going 150 amps again
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 16:38   #29
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Re: Landing Scans

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Most people with alliances won't be using this scan anyways, and the people without an alliance won't be getting many 1 ship def fleets anyways.

You must be joking?
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 16:48   #30
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Re: Landing Scans

presumably rubber means that as usual alliances will have newsies for the first 2 attacks and jgp's from then on.
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Unread 15 Oct 2008, 17:06   #31
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Re: Landing Scans

I'm willing to concede to all of you that argue that this makes going the route of distorter whore less advantageous, though not completely useless. What a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that the primary way most folks use distorters is for offense not defense, mostly to hide attack fleet type. This use is in no way negated, and I seriously doubt it ever will.

Those of you who argue that this removes the need for scanners, or that new players can easily get scans anyway seem to be focusing on a very narrow point and not looking at the big picture.
1. As long as distorters exist there will always be a need for scanners. This will mean active allies will always have a scan advantage over inactive allies and non allied players. In my opinion this is a good thing in that activity and cooperation are rewarded.
2. New players often have a terrible time getting connected inside of planetarion. Many don't know how or want to use IRC, so rooms such as #scans are useless to them. By having a scan that allows even the most novice player to get all the basic info they need to make land/pull decisions this makes the game more accessible and hopefully will contribute to a higher new player retention, something we all want.
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Unread 16 Oct 2008, 03:43   #32
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Because it makes sense that people have to spend over a week researching scans before they can participate in the game's core activity.
Why not? If they want scans early enough, thats part of the game. I'm not the only one, I'm sure, to prove that alliance scanners can actually be legit members of an alliance, and not just def fleets. Why can a solo planet not do the same? Research scans, research your ships, and attack.
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Unread 16 Oct 2008, 06:12   #33
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Re: Landing Scans

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Why not? If they want scans early enough, thats part of the game. I'm not the only one, I'm sure, to prove that alliance scanners can actually be legit members of an alliance, and not just def fleets. Why can a solo planet not do the same? Research scans, research your ships, and attack.
You're probably the only one in this game that don't want it to grow though.

I like the new landing scan and i think its perfect.
Alliances will still have NEWS/JGP, while solo player can go for the landing scan.
The info in the landing scan isn't helpfull at all unless you're totally clear, as it says nothing.
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Unread 16 Oct 2008, 06:51   #34
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Re: Landing Scans

The more I look at them, the more I dont mind them.

And while I still dont like the ignoring dists part, I now realize the effects will be negligible. Really, this is just going to be another way I can preserve my fleet early on.
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Unread 16 Oct 2008, 08:29   #35
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Re: Landing Scans

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Originally Posted by Recluse View Post
Why not? If they want scans early enough, thats part of the game. I'm not the only one, I'm sure, to prove that alliance scanners can actually be legit members of an alliance, and not just def fleets. Why can a solo planet not do the same? Research scans, research your ships, and attack.
Scenario: I just sign up to planetarion, ive never played the game in my life before. Do i

A: Think to my self, i better start getting scans early so i can be sure i land clear
B: Think to my self, sweet im going to get lots of big ass ships and WTFPWN the universe.
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Unread 16 Oct 2008, 08:37   #36
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Re: Landing Scans

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You must be joking?
So you're going to rely on the landing scan all round then?
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Unread 16 Oct 2008, 21:04   #37
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Re: Landing Scans

I think having this ignore distorters opens a lot of new possibilities for distorter players.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 03:43   #38
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Re: Landing Scans

just to make it clear, this scan can be done on anyone or only on a planet you're attacking ?
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 05:48   #39
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Re: Landing Scans

Only the planet you're attacking and only if you're eta 1.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 10:29   #40
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Re: Landing Scans

I would be happier if you removed this useless scan idea, gave everyone the full stack of scans from the round start and removed amps/distorters permanently.

But we can't all have our way can we?
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 11:01   #41
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Re: Landing Scans

stay_posi (tive) dude
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 11:43   #42
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Re: Landing Scans

I think most of the points I was going to make about this have been made by Squishy, JBG and mz.

It's added to give newer players (or players in smaller alliances) a hope in hell of having a chance to see if there's defence. About all it's useful for is showing if there's a defence fleet or not, but I can see it being fairly widely used.

#scans and #trans aren't always active when people want scans (I've seen people begging).

Firstly, you have to stay until ETA 1 to use it, and then you could have a 100k 100 tick old planet or a 2 mil planet defending against you - it's like being defended against by an xan, only more so.
I anticipate many 1 ship defences appearing to counter this, especially by smaller planets who may otherwise feel useless.
I can't see most people waiting until ETA 1 though, so scanners will still be used further out.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 14:19   #43
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Re: Landing Scans

So why the hell not make scans publically available for everyone from the get go, its such a tedious research path, and it would benefit new starters more than anyone anyway, I honestly cant see why you persist on having scanners exist in this game. Could you please explain your reasons behind not making them available from the get go, as you must have some concerns as to not have implemented it already, but i can probably guarentee the pros outweigh the cons.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 16:12   #44
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Re: Landing Scans

Personally, I have no problems with scanners per se. What I do have a problem with is the fact that it's almost impossible to play without them. To require new players to spend a week doing researches before they can find out if this game is in fact any good or not is utterly retarded.

That said, I see no particularly compelling reason not to give everyone all scans. It'll reduce the number of scanners (no need for fast scanners, just high amp ones) and thus increase the value of distorters.
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Unread 17 Oct 2008, 19:30   #45
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Thumbs up Re: Landing Scans

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So why the hell not make scans publically available for everyone from the get go, its such a tedious research path, and it would benefit new starters more than anyone anyway, I honestly cant see why you persist on having scanners exist in this game. Could you please explain your reasons behind not making them available from the get go, as you must have some concerns as to not have implemented it already, but i can probably guarentee the pros outweigh the cons.

agreed fully, as long as you keep Wave Amps + Dists in their full effect
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