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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 19:51   #51
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
So because helping the lower half of the game was hard and drained you you have now decided to say sod them and try and screw them over. Isn't that nice of you. This actually highlights one of the problems PA has. Pretty much every player has at some point had some involvement lower down in the game yet as soon as they get higher up they either forget about this time or decide that they have had their struggles and its time for them to inflict those struggles on others to give themselves an easier time.
Nope thats not what i decided.
Jesus christ wakey, ive tried to be courteous towards you but you really are making it difficult to do so when you get on your "im superior to you in life" high horse and start preaching blindly.
I happen to believe XP is a bad thing, I think a value system is better then an XP one but i am not pretending that a value system is 100% perfect for everyone.
that is my opinion.
You ( evidently ) disagree. Fair enough but what exactly gives you the right to suddenly decide im being deliberately dense or ignoring things - and to then accuse me of it?
Im not deliberately ignoring problems in the value system, infact i pointed out a few in previous posts. Of course, never let facts get in the way of a good crusade 'in the name of all the small players' eh wakey?

That wasnt perhaps very courteous to you, for that i apologise but it needed to be said.

I believe a value system is better community wise as it brings people together. They have no choice but to work together if they want to defend against alliance attacks effectively
an xp system doesnt bring people together, it excuses/encourages laziness and inactivity. After all if you dont have to be around so much - why would you be?

Under what circumstances do you imagine social ties will form between new players when the only times they are around is to launch a fleet, or to check how its going with an existing attack. Theres no reason for them to be around to help other or to ask for help when they themselves are attacked.
Im sure you would agree that social ties are a rather critical component for a community to survive - and when no new ties are created how do you think it will cope?
Ascendancy survived together when they played for xp because the ties were already formed. They were already friends who played together and that is why they didnt just fizzle out.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 19:59   #52
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Admittedly, I caught you wrong there, "compelling" was somewhat misinterpreted by me (excuse this, I am after all not a native speaker).
np, even us native speakers misinterpret things from time to time.
After all, i couldnt make heads nor tails of the part wakey said earlier, where i pointed out i thought he had contradicted himself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Value based systems force cooperation in form of chickenshitting the fence and just creating the "who has the bigger gang" block "wars".
Is this really the fault of the system or of the players though. A viral lack of courage?
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 20:09   #53
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I believe a value system is better community wise as it brings people together. They have no choice but to work together if they want to defend against alliance attacks effectively
an xp system doesnt bring people together, it excuses/encourages laziness and inactivity. After all if you dont have to be around so much - why would you be?
I have rarely read such an utter amount of bullshit Phil.

Value does not form better communities, neither does it bring people together - no it does not, not even because it forces you to receive defense if you want to do well. Commuities grow because of communication between people. There are several ways and reasons for people to communicate, but defense coordination should not be the sole reason for establishing a community.
Personally I started getting in touch with the community because of asking people about the game, what to do here and there, asking for advise on targets I have chosen - and yes, also about defense. But defense was - at least for me - not the ultimate reason to start communicating. It was because I was curious about how things work, and how I could do something better.

Value - as already said above - requires defense. You have no chance to do well without it.

XP is no excuse for laziness and inactivity, nor does it encourage either way. If Ascendancy would have been all lazy in round 16 we wouldn't have had a chance at winning the round due to lack of attacking enough. Neither we were inactive, we just played the game with the required amount of activity - which admittedly was reduced heavily by agreeing that we won't have a defense system.

XP has the nice side-effects of allowing you to be less active than 24/7 in order to do well because it cannot be removed. That is good. The value based game killed your real life. And unless you are absolutely lacking social skills you don't want to miss going out partying with your friends when you want (and not when the game offers you a chance).

In opposition, why should you be around a lot? If you have the time to be around, that's fine. If you don't have the time the game should not force you out of some other business.

Comparing both systems I rather have the XP system which has one less reason for interaction but allows joey casual to play the game over having a value system which forces you to sacrifice your real life in order to do reasonably well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Ascendancy survived together when they played for xp because the ties were already formed. They were already friends who played together and that is why they didnt just fizzle out.
We weren't (and some still aren't) exactly friends. At least I for myself haven't had any contact with most of the people in Ascendancy before I was there. We just share a common philosophy upon how to play the game as an alliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Is this really the fault of the system or of the players though. A viral lack of courage?
A fault of the system as the system encourages players to play that way. If you do not fence sit or team up with others a war with someone equal or stronger than you is absolutely not benefitial towards you, your galaxy and your alliance.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 20:16   #54
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Ascendancy survived together when they played for xp because the ties were already formed. They were already friends who played together and that is why they didnt just fizzle out.
Glad to know you're on top of all the internet friendships out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
On the contrary i simply noted that this is how things currently are. They win, but it is not because they are the strongest.

Nope, the winner should be the alliance that is strongest.
I think boxing matches should be about who is the strongest too. Instead of punching eachother for 15 rounds, they could just see who could lift the most.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 20:27   #55
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Value does not form better communities, neither does it bring people together - no it does not, not even because it forces you to receive defense if you want to do well. Commuities grow because of communication between people. There are several ways and reasons for people to communicate, but defense coordination should not be the sole reason for establishing a community.
Sole, no - but its certainly another reason to communicate. A reason which is absent under an XP based system.
One less reason to talk to other players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
we just played the game with the required amount of activity - which admittedly was reduced heavily by agreeing that we won't have a defense system.
You made my point there. Activity was directly reduced because of playing for XP. There was no need to stick around to help others because you werent defending. How are you going to form ties when you arent even around?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
XP has the nice side-effects of allowing you to be less active than 24/7 in order to do well because it cannot be removed.
That encourages inactivity. If you dont have to be around, you wont.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
That is good. The value based game killed your real life. And unless you are absolutely lacking social skills you don't want to miss going out partying with your friends when you want (and not when the game offers you a chance).
Is it good for the game or community though?
Yes it might be good for the individual player but the rest are diminished because they arent around much anymore.
Granted this doesnt matter if you play with rl friends, since you see them anyway both in pa and rl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
In opposition, why should you be around a lot? If you have the time to be around, that's fine. If you don't have the time the game should not force you out of some other business.
You dont have to be around, its a game after all - not a life or death situation.
For instance, I cant see people wandering off half way through a network game of command and conquer and expecting to still win when they come back an hour later. Chances are they'll be dead

If you arent around to actually play - why should you win at the expense of those who are?
Being around has the side effect of giving you more of an opportunity to form social ties with those playing with you. This is a good thing imo
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 20:43   #56
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Sole, no - but its certainly another reason to communicate. A reason which is absent under an XP based system.
One less reason to talk to other players.
Exactly what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
You made my point there. Activity was directly reduced because of playing for XP. There was no need to stick around to help others because you werent defending. How are you going to form ties when you arent even around?
This is wrong because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
That encourages inactivity. If you dont have to be around, you wont.
...of this. If I don't have to be around I will still be around in order to exchange knowledge with others. Asking them what they think about x or y, or answering their questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Is it good for the game or community though?
Yes it might be good for the individual player but the rest are diminished because they arent around much anymore.
Granted this doesnt matter if you play with rl friends, since you see them anyway both in pa and rl
It must be good for the community if it is good for the individual. After all, people are likely to start playing this game as an individual. And if that individual has a chance to do well he will keep on playing, thus he is able to grow into the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
You dont have to be around, its a game after all - not a life or death situation.
For instance, I cant see people wandering off half way through a network game of command and conquer and expecting to still win when they come back an hour later. Chances are they'll be dead
Yes, and the "slight" difference between PA and a Command & Conquer match is that PA is about 8 weeks longer than that C&C match.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
If you arent around to actually play - why should you win at the expense of those who are?
But I am around to play. Just not 24/7. I launch my attacks each (or every other) day, I post on the galaxy and game forums - and so on. Should I not have a chance to do reasonably well or should only John Unemployed who can afford being online 24/7 have a chance at doing well? Keep in mind, I am not saying winning, but with a value based system you could only lose and not even do reasonably well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Being around has the side effect of giving you more of an opportunity to form social ties with those playing with you. This is a good thing imo
Forming "Social ties" on the internet? Ok - the internet is an interesting medium to use for communicating, but it does not allow you to form classic social ties as easy as in real life, just because you are first of all anonymous on the net and can be elviz or saddam if you want to be.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 20:53   #57
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
...of this. If I don't have to be around I will still be around in order to exchange knowledge with others. Asking them what they think about x or y, or answering their questions.
You might be, but can you speak for everyone?
I dont believe that everyone will stick around. If rl is more interesting ( and lets face it, it is ) - people will spend more time there if they dont have to be around playing pa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
It must be good for the community if it is good for the individual. After all, people are likely to start playing this game as an individual. And if that individual has a chance to do well he will keep on playing, thus he is able to grow into the community.
I dont consider the growth of selfish and self-centred behaviour to be a good thing for a community, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Yes, and the "slight" difference between PA and a Command & Conquer match is that PA is about 8 weeks longer than that C&C match.
I actually had an "apples and oranges" type thing in there to start with but removed it since i knew people would just jump on that rather then listen to the point i was trying to make. You've made that leap on your own so let me reiterate the point i was making :

People who dont spend time playing the game have no justification for expecting to win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Forming "Social ties" on the internet? Ok - the internet is an interesting medium to use for communicating, but it does not allow you to form classic social ties as easy as in real life, just because you are first of all anonymous on the net and can be elviz or saddam if you want to be.
As easy no, but it does allow you to form them. Not communicating doesnt let you form social ties regardless of the medium used - and if you arent around you cant communicate

I can pretend to be elviz or saddam ( rather hard now ) , all i want. Eventually i'll get caught out and exposed.
I can pretend to be both of them in real life too all i want, and again i'll get caught out and exposed sooner or later
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 21:40   #58
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
You might be, but can you speak for everyone?
I dont believe that everyone will stick around. If rl is more interesting ( and lets face it, it is ) - people will spend more time there if they dont have to be around playing pa.
That is a problem the game is facing then. A boring game does not get more interesting if it gets more time demanding. In the end, time demanding, boring games just make you quit them. What the game has to achieve is creating an atmosphere you would like to enjoy. And that is where I am also sharing the opinion that the game in its current state is too much hacked together, too few designed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I dont consider the growth of selfish and self-centred behaviour to be a good thing for a community, personally.
I consider a community as the thing it primarily is: a sum of individuals which group together due to a shared interest, f.e. playing planetarion. How each individual plays planetarion is a completely different issue, but certainly a community should not be defined the way you try to do it. If you want communities which have more in common than playing pa then look at alliances or buddypacks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I actually had an "apples and oranges" type thing in there to start with but removed it since i knew people would just jump on that rather then listen to the point i was trying to make. You've made that leap on your own so let me reiterate the point i was making :

People who dont spend time playing the game have no justification for expecting to win
And as I said, I agree with that people should not necessarily expect to win. It is a matter of defining how much time you are supposed to play the game in order to do well or to win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
As easy no, but it does allow you to form them. Not communicating doesnt let you form social ties regardless of the medium used - and if you arent around you cant communicate

I can pretend to be elviz or saddam ( rather hard now ) , all i want. Eventually i'll get caught out and exposed.
I can pretend to be both of them in real life too all i want, and again i'll get caught out and exposed sooner or later
See, that's why I prefer real life socialising over internet socialising - even though it is fun to chat with people on irc or to talk to people on skype. This has **** all to do with the value issue though.
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Unread 4 Jan 2007, 21:44   #59
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
And that is where I am also sharing the opinion that the game in its current state is too much hacked together, too few designed.
We are in agreement here, The game is ( and always has been i guess ) a patch upon a patch upon a patch - aimed at correcting problems with the round before. An attempt was made for r10 to change that by entirely recoding but things have slipped back into the old routine of patch existing problems and then design - rather then design from the outset.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 16:59   #60
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Re: New Changes

jesus christ I leave u kids alone for 5 minutes

At the end of the day, who should be rewarded more: the people who've put time and effort into the game, maintaining a large fleet and roidcount, or the people who log in once a week, attack somebody 20x bigger than them in value, get a bucket load of score for it, and then log out til the following week.

XP isn't fair, just, or appropriate. Yes, it makes the game fairer to those who cant log in as often - but people with low activity shouldn't really expect to win a massively multiplayer something something strategy game. Why should they have a greater reward than somebody who's worked his gonads off for a high value-based score when some twat with 20 ships can beat him?

Its just not right.

And ftr you have again ignored my point about the dual systems - if a player wants to go for personal glory then that's fine. They can still do that. If they dont have the time to contribute as part of a team then yes, why not keep planet rankings the way it is just now. But alliances should be about teamwork and contribution.

Heartless how can you say that an XP Alliance Ranking system makes it more competitive? If an alliance is playing for xp then not only are they likely to be largely under the bash limit of the big value players (i.e. untouchable scores) then how is that competition at all? It would mean that they can just keep feeding and feeding off of the value players by suiciding p*ss-poor fleets and getting xp for it, which cant be taken back from them. A value player's score is very much dentable, which presents an unfair disadvantage for them.

Planetarion was never meant to be about cowardly 'tactical' raids, it was about brute force and competition. Does anybody else notice the dramatically low playerbase? I can guarantee if u got rid of xp the playerbase would go up. XP is one of the sole things keeping people away from the game just now, as it's too much of an unfair system.

And all we're asking for here is a compromise! We're not saying get rid of XP (although you should) all we're saying here is set the alliance score to value and return some meaning to planetarion. If you're worried about bashing raise the damned bash limit.

At the end of the day if you cant win based on value, you dont deserve to win. Winning should be about rewarding hard work, not luck.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 18:01   #61
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Re: New Changes

Complete nonsense from start to finish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
jesus christ I leave u kids alone for 5 minutes

At the end of the day, who should be rewarded more: the people who've put time and effort into the game, maintaining a large fleet and roidcount, or the people who log in once a week, attack somebody 20x bigger than them in value, get a bucket load of score for it, and then log out til the following week.
Yes, when all else fails, resort to hyperbole. The activity patterns necessary to win using XP are probably less stressful than the activity patterns necessary to win by value, but only slightly. Really good players don't need to be all that active even when playing for value (Sid, for example, spent very little time on his planet but always managed to do reasonably well). I can appreciate that some of the less-skilled players might like to be able to win simply by being more 'active' than others, but I don't see why such unskilled play should be rewarded.

To actually play and win with XP is harder than it looks. It requires the dedication to continue attacking every day, and it also requires that the player cares enough to do so. Caring about the game only comes from having a reasonably high level of activity and involvement in the community; do you seriously think that PA is being overrun by swarms of inactive people who never log in, never talk on IRC or contribute to the community, yet manage to win rounds using XP alone?

Quote:
XP isn't fair, just, or appropriate. Yes, it makes the game fairer to those who cant log in as often - but people with low activity shouldn't really expect to win a massively multiplayer something something strategy game. Why should they have a greater reward than somebody who's worked his gonads off for a high value-based score when some twat with 20 ships can beat him?

Its just not right.
Since when is fairness, justice or 'appropriateness' a measure of fun in a game? This paragraph is simply a jumble of unreferenced statements, topped off with yet more hyperbole. Your example of a high-value player is interesting, simply because high-value players have done pretty well since the XP formula was changed after r16. The only way a value player could lose is by consistently attacking downwards - attacking planets quite a bit smaller than his own. Do we want to encourage or reward this?

Quote:
And ftr you have again ignored my point about the dual systems - if a player wants to go for personal glory then that's fine. They can still do that. If they dont have the time to contribute as part of a team then yes, why not keep planet rankings the way it is just now. But alliances should be about teamwork and contribution.
Alliances should be about whatever the people in the alliance want them to be.

Quote:
Heartless how can you say that an XP Alliance Ranking system makes it more competitive? If an alliance is playing for xp then not only are they likely to be largely under the bash limit of the big value players (i.e. untouchable scores) then how is that competition at all? It would mean that they can just keep feeding and feeding off of the value players by suiciding p*ss-poor fleets and getting xp for it, which cant be taken back from them. A value player's score is very much dentable, which presents an unfair disadvantage for them.
RTFM. Score is now counted in the bash formula; anyone you can't hit must be substantially lower in score than you, so why are you worried about them?

Quote:
Planetarion was never meant to be about cowardly 'tactical' raids, it was about brute force and competition. Does anybody else notice the dramatically low playerbase? I can guarantee if u got rid of xp the playerbase would go up. XP is one of the sole things keeping people away from the game just now, as it's too much of an unfair system.
This is the piece of gibberish which prompted me to bother posting at all. What's more cowardly, attacking someone with 40.1% of your value, or using tactics to attack someone twice your value?

And yes, we notice the low playerbase. It has been declining since round 5, and I don't think the XP formula has made any appreciable difference one way or another.

You offer of a guarantee for the financial future of the game that would result from a game change is interesting: are you really willing to put up the cash difference between the amount paid for credits in r19 and r20, if r20 were to have a different XP/ranking formula? Or was that just hyperbole?

Quote:
And all we're asking for here is a compromise! We're not saying get rid of XP (although you should) all we're saying here is set the alliance score to value and return some meaning to planetarion. If you're worried about bashing raise the damned bash limit.

At the end of the day if you cant win based on value, you dont deserve to win. Winning should be about rewarding hard work, not luck.
Winning should be about smart work; any moron can grind out a result in a game simply by logging on more often than is healthy. But it's not fun and it's not something we should encourage.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 18:07   #62
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
At the end of the day, who should be rewarded more: the people who've put time and effort into the game, maintaining a large fleet and roidcount, or the people who log in once a week, attack somebody 20x bigger than them in value, get a bucket load of score for it, and then log out til the following week.

XP isn't fair, just, or appropriate. Yes, it makes the game fairer to those who cant log in as often - but people with low activity shouldn't really expect to win a massively multiplayer something something strategy game. Why should they have a greater reward than somebody who's worked his gonads off for a high value-based score when some twat with 20 ships can beat him?

Its just not right.
Stop being so utterly stupid, or do you really think someone who constantly hits his head against a wall in order to break through the wall should win instead of someone using a percussion drill - just because invested more time into it? It's just not right to encourage brutforce over brainforce.

Seriously, XP does not allow anyone to log into his account once a week and beat someone who logged in daily. XP, however, gives you an incentive to try to outsmart other people - those people which have more fleet than you. It also prevents you from losing your complete score. And thirdly it allows you to actually catch up on others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
And ftr you have again ignored my point about the dual systems - if a player wants to go for personal glory then that's fine. They can still do that. If they dont have the time to contribute as part of a team then yes, why not keep planet rankings the way it is just now. But alliances should be about teamwork and contribution.
Is coordinating attacks NOT included in teamwork? Is coordinating intel NOT included in teamwork? Is simply discussing what to do next NOT included in teamwork?

If so, then yes I agree, an alliance is only defined by acutally totally commiting itself to defense. Why not just base alliance rankings upon successfull defense missions launched per round then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Heartless how can you say that an XP Alliance Ranking system makes it more competitive? If an alliance is playing for xp then not only are they likely to be largely under the bash limit of the big value players (i.e. untouchable scores) then how is that competition at all? It would mean that they can just keep feeding and feeding off of the value players by suiciding p*ss-poor fleets and getting xp for it, which cant be taken back from them. A value player's score is very much dentable, which presents an unfair disadvantage for them.
Oh dear god, PLEASE PLEAE PLEASE GO READ THE MANUAL REGARDING THE BASH FORMULA. It seems like nobody ever noticed that you can attack every planet who has more than 40% of your score. Yes that also means a value player can repeatedly go and hit those xp players if they are in front of him.
If they manage to keep on suiciding piss-poor fleets AND succeed with that in their quest for xp, then surely the value player was stupid enough to not build a fleet against that?

XP does allow a more competitive play. It means you can accept some ship losses (not total shiploss!) as it will be compensated by XP. In a pure value based system every fleet resource you lose hurts you, especially if the enemy alliance loses less ships than you. Maybe, just maybe look at the history of round 15, or at the day where ND caught up a few million score on eXilition just by roiding. Value requires you to kill enemy ships which is hard, especially when the enemy has more fleet available than you.

Now that the bash limit and value issue is done for enough, if you need more info read what jester and me replied to phil, I will go on to your point for a dual based system:

The pure-value-system has an universal issue glitch: It is impossible to catch up on your own - no matter if that "on your own" means your planet, your galaxy or your alliance. None of the three entities can really catch up unless they decide to act cowardice and avoid as much incoming as possible and only roid down the chain or get some partners to try to eat up the foodchain.

For alliance rankings on value this would mean that it will just return to mass-blocking/napping because nobody wants to lose roids (and thus fall behind in the growth rates) and everybody wants to have more partners than the others (just in case that someone should actually decide to start a war in a war game).

I am really not sure how to make that point way clearer than just telling you to look at what happened in planetarion before XP was introduced. You will notice that rounds stagnated a lot earlier than they do now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Planetarion was never meant to be about cowardly 'tactical' raids, it was about brute force and competition.
I remember that you also were 1up. You will notice that eXilition didn't beat 1up by 'tactical' raids as you call them. Exilition brutforced upon 1up to beat them. That still is required. After all, it still is a war game, and making too many enemies cannot be too good, can it? I think Angels / Omen / ND can sing a song about hitting here and there instead of focussing on the real competition for #1 alliance slot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Does anybody else notice the dramatically low playerbase? I can guarantee if u got rid of xp the playerbase would go up. XP is one of the sole things keeping people away from the game just now, as it's too much of an unfair system.

And all we're asking for here is a compromise! We're not saying get rid of XP (although you should) all we're saying here is set the alliance score to value and return some meaning to planetarion.
Oh, while you are able to foresee the future, when is Duke Nukem Forever going to be released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
If you're worried about bashing raise the damned bash limit.
First you complain about a small universe (which already means few targets) and the inability to hit xp whores (which ain't true). Now you want to decrease the available target pool even more by raising the bash limit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
At the end of the day if you cant win based on value, you dont deserve to win. Winning should be about rewarding hard work, not luck.
Well the wiki is located at http://www.clawofdarkness.com/pawiki/ - I suggest you take a look at the rankings of the last few rounds and you will notice that with the exception of Ascendancy nobody has won by NOT playing for value.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 18:15   #63
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
At the end of the day, who should be rewarded more: the people who've put time and effort into the game, maintaining a large fleet and roidcount, or the people who log in once a week, attack somebody 20x bigger than them in value, get a bucket load of score for it, and then log out til the following week.
I think you need to meet some of the biggest XP players and see how they play to understand how active they are.

Our [BIG] XP players were very very active, if anything they are more active than a bunch of ally players who only log on a couple of times a day to send a couple of defence fleets (that have already been put together by a DC) and then once a day to launch on an attack (for which they were provided all the scans and in some cases even told who to attack), just logging on briefly to see if the jpg (that they didn't make) shows that they should recall or not.

Anyone should be able to play the game - just because you don't personally like XP (and have an incorrect view of the way they play) - doesn't mean its a bad thing or that it encourages inactivity.

However the changes (x2) were not about removing XP anyway, they were about changing the scoring system which would not have benefitted certain people in the game (due to knock on effects) and would, most likely, have caused certain bashing activities - bashing is not good for the game. If you don't like XP you should be complaining about that and not the changes to scoring system.

Even if XP had been removed then the scoring changes (to ranks allies by value) may still have caused bashing activites (coupled with the low cluster ETA), so really complaining about XP and the score changes at the same time is wrong because they are not completely linked.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:11   #64
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Re: New Changes

What is it with certain pro-xp people and insulting those who happen to disagree with them? You seem to think the best way to deal with an argument is to ridicule the person making it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Really good players don't need to be all that active even when playing for value (Sid, for example, spent very little time on his planet but always managed to do reasonably well).
Sid had an entire alliance of very active people who were ready to defend him at the drop of a hat.
Defence which would not exist under an XP system since, whats the point in defending if your fleet is next to nonexistant?
Whats the point in sending ships which you would much rather use for attack, since you dont exactly gain anything much by defending them nor are you under any obligation to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
It requires the dedication to continue attacking every day
Is dedication logging on, launching, logging off until its due to land , logging on again to see if you are through - recalling if not and then logging off once more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
do you seriously think that PA is being overrun by swarms of inactive people who never log in, never talk on IRC or contribute to the community
This part is quite debatable, given the large numbers of exiling which occurs during rounds - and the whines about inactives in peoples galaxies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Since when is fairness, justice or 'appropriateness' a measure of fun in a game?
Apples and oranges. Fairness is quite obviously not a direct measurement of fun, It does however create a scenario for fun to develop.
Do you think a game which is inherantly unfair is a good place for everyone to find it fun?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
The only way a value player could lose is by consistently attacking downwards
Not the only way nope. You forget the losing ones fleet method of losing

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
RTFM. Score is now counted in the bash formula; anyone you can't hit must be substantially lower in score than you, so why are you worried about them?
See point made on page 1 indicating that i dont exactly think the formula will remain this way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
What's more cowardly, attacking someone with 40.1% of your value, or using tactics to attack someone twice your value?
Whats more cowardly - Attacking a planet for something you are always in danger of losing again, or attacking a planet for something which can never be taken away from you no matter how hard they try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
any moron can grind out a result in a game simply by logging on more often than is healthy. But it's not fun and it's not something we should encourage.
Funny, that sounds precisely like the point i made regarding your 'dedication' point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I remember that you also were 1up. You will notice that eXilition didn't beat 1up by 'tactical' raids as you call them. Exilition brutforced upon 1up to beat them. That still is required. After all, it still is a war game, and making too many enemies cannot be too good, can it? I think Angels / Omen / ND can sing a song about hitting here and there instead of focussing on the real competition for #1 alliance slot.
Didnt exilition also play for value? - Not XP.

I dont think you realise just how useless it is to bruteforce an xp whore.
They have something which will never ever be taken away no matter how many times you attack them.
The only way i can think of to successfully tackle an xp whore is to defend every single place they attack and prevent them from gaining xp in the first place. Something which isnt exactly feasible since by the time you know where they are attacking it is too late to defend against it if it is not against your alliance.
You may suggest outroiding as one means, but just how effective was that for 1up against ascendancy again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Oh, while you are able to foresee the future, when is Duke Nukem Forever going to be released?
Everyone knows that duke nukem forever will be released the day after tomorrow, recursively.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:30   #65
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Didnt exilition also play for value? - Not XP.
You will find a lot of exilition people agreeing that eXilition would never have won round 15 if they couldn't catch up on ND due to XP exi got from raiding value-fat ND people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
I dont think you realise just how useless it is to bruteforce an xp whore.
They have something which will never ever be taken away no matter how many times you attack them.
The only way i can think of to successfully tackle an xp whore is to defend every single place they attack and prevent them from gaining xp in the first place. Something which isnt exactly feasible since by the time you know where they are attacking it is too late to defend against it if it is not against your alliance.
You may suggest outroiding as one means, but just how effective was that for 1up against ascendancy again?
You bruteforce an xp whore by bruteforce defending against and by fleetcatching them. Admittedly it is (or was - should be easier to accomplish with cluster eta) hard to constantly defend every attack an xp whore launches, but surely it is easy to keep on fleetcatching them?

1up had no chance to outroid Ascendancy in round 16 due to a glitch in the game mechanics, i.e. Ascendancy could never lose anything as the pure-value-based bash limit protected us. On the other hand, round 16 was pretty short so that roids couldn't really start paying off enough to make value players compete with xp whores. In short: round 16 has shown how XP should NOT be implemented in the game. The current xp system, however, works ok'ish.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:32   #66
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
stuff.
Heartless I dont think I'm going to bother replying to you. I'm trying to put across my views in a constructive but opinionated way. Calling me 'stupid' doesn't add weight to your position, nor does it make me inclined to try and have a debate with you.

I think that the people who support xp are going to keep supporting it, and likewise for value. I think both systems have their merit, I'm just in favour of the merit surrounding value scores for alliances for the reasons I've stated. I'm not saying your reasons are wrong, I'm saying I dont think they have merit.

You're right Heartless I did play with you in 1up. You were there when I first joined and had the Sid incident as detailed below. I never imagined you'd be the kind to shoot me down with such arrogance on the forums just because I've said something you disagreed with. GG.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:44   #67
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Admittedly it is (or was - should be easier to accomplish with cluster eta) hard to constantly defend every attack an xp whore launches, but surely it is easy to keep on fleetcatching them?
It gives you a better chance to get there in time, assuming you are told about the incoming the very tick it arrives. After that its pretty much impossible(stats dependant) . News scans cant be used to find out where they are going because of the tick delay on them
Also it might raise a few flags for oogooa defence if you are defending another alliance

Fleetcatches as im sure you are aware are not easy things to set up. If the target planet suspects one ( jgp for prelaunched fleets helps here, as do spies. Fleetcatches require coordination and planning, the stuff spies live for to be on the inside of ) , they will recall and foil the attempt.
You would need to fleetcatch and defend against them for a significant length of time - during which your alliance has less fleets available to it to do attacks of its own or defend against the normal 'background noise' of incoming.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:48   #68
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny
Heartless I dont think I'm going to bother replying to you. I'm trying to put across my views in a constructive but opinionated way. Calling me 'stupid' doesn't add weight to your position, nor does it make me inclined to try and have a debate with you.

I think that the people who support xp are going to keep supporting it, and likewise for value. I think both systems have their merit, I'm just in favour of the merit surrounding value scores for alliances for the reasons I've stated. I'm not saying your reasons are wrong, I'm saying I dont think they have merit.

You're right Heartless I did play with you in 1up. You were there when I first joined and had the Sid incident as detailed below. I never imagined you'd be the kind to shoot me down with such arrogance on the forums just because I've said something you disagreed with. GG.
So far I have not seen ANY argument for a value-based system except "we like it more". Those people favouring pure value should maybe start outlining where and why the value based system is superior to the xp system, and why it would improve the gameplay experience. Just start arguing for your cause.

Neither did I want to be arrogant, but sometimes you simply have to be - just like I could call you arrogant for your "I leave your kids alone for five minutes" statement. Doesn't get us onwards in resolving the issue though. Feel free to keep on trying to convince me, I am open for good arguments. However, so far I have seen no argument that could be countered with an equal or better argument when it comes to gameplay.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:53   #69
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
So far I have not seen ANY argument for a value-based system except "we like it more". Those people favouring pure value should maybe start outlining where and why the value based system is superior to the xp system, and why it would improve the gameplay experience. Just start arguing for your cause.
we have, not that any of you have listened mind you - in favour of "you're so stupid etc etc " type comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
I could call you arrogant for your "I leave your kids alone for five minutes" statement.
You could, but you would be wrong. He was referring to the number of posts that appeared since he last posted here - Not any swipe at you or anyone else who is pro-xp
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 19:59   #70
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
It gives you a better chance to get there in time, assuming you are told about the incoming the very tick it arrives. After that its pretty much impossible(stats dependant) . News scans cant be used to find out where they are going because of the tick delay on them
Also it might raise a few flags for oogooa defence if you are defending another alliance

Fleetcatches as im sure you are aware are not easy things to set up. If the target planet suspects one ( jgp for prelaunched fleets helps here, as do spies. Fleetcatches require coordination and planning, the stuff spies live for to be on the inside of ) , they will recall and foil the attempt.
You would need to fleetcatch and defend against them for a significant length of time - during which your alliance has less fleets available to it to do attacks of its own or defend against the normal 'background noise' of incoming.
Fleetcatches are easy to setup, unless you and your people are unable to have a nicely designed fleet. Fleetcatches are hard if the xp whore is in a top gal or a top alliance (and there it would do good anyway, don't you think?).
Additionally it is really easy to outgrow xp whores (they just cannot keep roids, and if they do they get pretty value dependent, too), and you can easily see what they specialize on so you can counter it one way or another.

In the end a good player will have a good combination of either lots of value + some xp, lots of xp + some value, or equal amounts of both in his score.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:02   #71
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
we have, not that any of you have listened mind you - in favour of "you're so stupid etc etc " type comments
Yeah, the argument everyone used was "but the most active should win". Nowhere has any of you actually described why that would increase the gameplay experience? Why is it more fun if I am more active? Because I have a chance to talk to more people on the interweb? Oh please! Don't limit the target audience of a game to the 24/7 net junkies. The market is simply too small to gain back 20k players or more.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:05   #72
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Re: New Changes

I wondered where the vehement hate of xp had gone after cypher left, turns out phil took it.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:08   #73
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Yeah, the argument everyone used was "but the most active should win".
Posts : 32, 36, 41, 51 , 55, 64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Apples and oranges. Fairness is quite obviously not a direct measurement of fun, It does however create a scenario for fun to develop.
Do you think a game which is inherantly unfair is a good place for everyone to find it fun?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
I wondered where the vehement hate of xp had gone after cypher left, turns out phil took it.

Yet another one on the "lets make cheap shots and insults rather then debate" list?
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:12   #74
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Re: New Changes

Just stating a fact....
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:15   #75
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Just stating a fact....
or an opinion.
Just as i could state that there is a strange parallel with posters who insult, and those who played in ascendacy - or are afflilated with them - just as there is a parallel with them and those who are pro-xp
This would be an opinion also
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:16   #76
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Re: New Changes

I wondered where the vehement hate of exilition had gone, turns out phil pointed it at ascendancy.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:18   #77
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
I wondered where the vehement hate of exilition had gone, turns out phil pointed it at ascendancy.

Anyone else want to take a cheap shot? Lets get it all done and over with so proper debate can actually carry on - and to reveal just how childish people are
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:19   #78
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Do you think a game which is inherantly unfair is a good place for everyone to find it fun?
I tend to agree, that's actually another reason on the XP side to be honest. XP allows those which are unable to spend their entire life on PA to do reasonably well. I am also certain Rob didn't want to say that only an inherently unfair game is a good game.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:19   #79
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Anyone else want to take a cheap shot? Lets get it all done and over with so proper debate can actually carry on - and to reveal just how childish people are
Okay!
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:21   #80
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
XP allows those which are unable to spend their entire life on PA to do reasonably well.
It also punishes those who choose to spend more time playing the game.
If someone who only pops on now and then to launch a fleet can do better then you because of the way the game favours them - They consider it to be deeply unfair and grow to resent it.
Resentment of the game is a terrible thing, and leads to quitting.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:21   #81
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^

Anyone else want to take a cheap shot? Lets get it all done and over with so proper debate can actually carry on - and to reveal just how childish people are
Talking about cheap shots, I happened to see pics of your gf.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:22   #82
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Talking about cheap shots, I happened to see pics of your gf.
You're a terrible, terrible human being, Stoom.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:23   #83
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
It also punishes those who choose to spend more time playing the game.
If someone who only pops on now and then to launch a fleet can do better then you because of the way the game favours them - They consider it to be deeply unfair and grow to resent it.
Resentment of the game is a terrible thing, and leads to quitting.
I agree with Heartless, those that spend all day online shouldn't necessarily be justified the top spots. If they don't like it, they can go outside.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:25   #84
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^

Anyone else want to take a cheap shot? Lets get it all done and over with so proper debate can actually carry on - and to reveal just how childish people are
I accept your challenge.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:32   #85
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Re: New Changes

XP vs value is a stupid discussion anyway. There will always be ppl liking it and disliking it. I'm not to bothered with XP, but i try to play more for value just because i like to have a more usefull fleet for my alliance mates. And from what i read in most of this there apparantly only is the hardcore value and the hardcore XP player, while that is hardly true. I doubt that in the end you'll find alot of players in either side, most play for value and xp.

The only reason i gamewise prefer value over XP is the fact that XP once gained can never be removed again, while ppl who play mostly for value can lose their entire round of work on the last day of the round if unlucky. If something would be introduced that allows both features to be equal (iboth value and XP can be gained and lost) i'd say the game would be on the right track to allow different roads to victory (although admittedly both still only apply to the combat engine while i would like a far deeper game in terms of playing and growth options).
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 20:38   #86
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
It also punishes those who choose to spend more time playing the game.
If someone who only pops on now and then to launch a fleet can do better then you because of the way the game favours them - They consider it to be deeply unfair and grow to resent it.
Resentment of the game is a terrible thing, and leads to quitting.
It does not punish them. It just does a thing a game does everywhere: It sets a limit to efficiency. I am also aware that there are people which feel disadvantaged because they chose to ruin their lifes and expect a granted top spot in return, however the game says how things should be, and the game should be developed with a certain aspect in mind: fun. We all agree there is hardly any fun left with as few players as we have, thus we need to grow. And for that the game has to change into the direction of a bigger target audience - and those are simply not the 24/7 active people.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 21:59   #87
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
or an opinion.
Just as i could state that there is a strange parallel with posters who insult, and those who played in ascendacy - or are afflilated with them - just as there is a parallel with them and those who are pro-xp
This would be an opinion also
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 22:09   #88
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Re: New Changes

Hi, i hear there is an Ascendancy bandwagon to jump on?

1 Ticket please.

PS. In all honesty if you fleet catch an xp whores fleet, its still goddamn difficult to rebuild. As the round goes in its gets very hard to xp whore. Early on its pretty each fun and games on ziks, but then every zik gets an anti whatever of that ship and your fun and games is over.
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Unread 5 Jan 2007, 22:22   #89
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Re: New Changes

If you want to defeat an alliance of xp whores the easiest way to do it is to land on them just after they've capped roids. Usually each player will have a certain methodolgy in their attacking so these times become fairly regular. If they aren't they're probably putting in just as much effort as value players so that whole argument goes off-base. Don't try and defend against all the xp-whores, prioritise by potential score gained by them. There are a whole bunch of tactics you can use and a far larger bunch I doubt I've ever considered. Asc r16 worked well because out of bash/different formula/different stats/hidden alliance. Not just XP EVIL CRUSH DESTROY. Incidentally as I recall we were all in favour of changing the xp formula.
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Unread 6 Jan 2007, 02:08   #90
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
What is it with certain pro-xp people and insulting those who happen to disagree with them? You seem to think the best way to deal with an argument is to ridicule the person making it.
I very carefully avoided the ad hominem argument. If Kenny appeared ridiculous, it was because of his argument and not because of anything I said. I might well ask 'What is it with certain anti-xp people and making groundless claims about things which they have no personal experience?'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
Sid had an entire alliance of very active people who were ready to defend him at the drop of a hat.
Defence which would not exist under an XP system since, whats the point in defending if your fleet is next to nonexistant?
So you state that Sid received lots of defence, under a system which incorporated the pre-r17 XP system, then claim that such a system would make defence irrelevant. Somewhat like Kenny, you're exaggerating and undermining your argument by doing so. Aside from that, Sid probably received less defence than many 1up members did. I know this because I was often the person running said defence at the time.

Furthermore, defence actually has nothing to do with my point. It was that an individual player does not need to be exceptionally active to get good value; the fact that a person can get defence without even being logged in actually bolsters my point rather than weakens it.

Quote:
Whats the point in sending ships which you would much rather use for attack, since you dont exactly gain anything much by defending them nor are you under any obligation to.
And yet, people do it. Do you know better than all of them?

Quote:
Is dedication logging on, launching, logging off until its due to land , logging on again to see if you are through - recalling if not and then logging off once more?
But almost nobody can do this for a whole round. It gets boring, if nothing else. To sustain interest in the game, you need to interact with the community. And if people are playing the game and interacting with the community, I don't see much of a problem.

Quote:
This part is quite debatable, given the large numbers of exiling which occurs during rounds - and the whines about inactives in peoples galaxies.
Fair point, but how would value-based alliance rankings help here? There are plenty of less active people, but these are the people who traditionally do worst out of a value system.

Quote:
Apples and oranges. Fairness is quite obviously not a direct measurement of fun, It does however create a scenario for fun to develop.
Do you think a game which is inherantly unfair is a good place for everyone to find it fun?
It's very hard to prove absolute fairness or unfairness though. You may see some things as fair and I may not; you may see some things as unfair and I may not. Mostly, people's conception of fairness in a game like PA is a result of their pre-existing biases. I have known people to say that attacking late at night is unfair, or that waved attacks are unfair... the list is almost endless. Whose conception of fairness matters? Why should it be yours?

Quote:
Not the only way nope. You forget the losing ones fleet method of losing
If someone loses their fleet, it is generally their own fault. It's not that hard to keep a fleet alive (after all, value players are meant to be active enough to do this, aren't they?), or to insure yourself against catastrophic losses (by staggering launch/return ETAs so you can't be totally fleet-caught).

Quote:
See point made on page 1 indicating that i dont exactly think the formula will remain this way.
Fair enough. But it doesn't appear (unless I've missed it) to be in the current raft of changes.

Quote:
Whats more cowardly - Attacking a planet for something you are always in danger of losing again, or attacking a planet for something which can never be taken away from you no matter how hard they try.
There's no doubt that, at the margins, XP can lead to some odd effects. But the basic principle of XP as an instant-gratification reward for attacking which can't be lost is still sound.

Quote:
Funny, that sounds precisely like the point i made regarding your 'dedication' point
It is similar and underlines what I said earlier about how subjective this debate is. I regard being up at 4am to run defence as unhealthy and being something that deters people from playing PA. You seem to believe the opposite; that being able to play and win during daylight hours is bad for the game.

We probably disagree less than this debate would make it look. I do think some changes are needed to XP, but if we discard it now we will probably never replace it with anything better.
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Unread 6 Jan 2007, 02:47   #91
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Re: New Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
I very carefully avoided the ad hominem argument.
Yes, you did and for this i applaud you. That point was more aimed at those who were unwilling to do so - not you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
So you state that Sid received lots of defence
No, thats not what im stating. I said that he had an entire alliance who were ready to defend him at the drop of a hat - not that the entire alliance defended him lots of times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Furthermore, defence actually has nothing to do with my point.
It does to do with mine however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
the fact that a person can get defence without even being logged in actually bolsters my point rather than weakens it.
Does it?
From what xp players would you magic up a fleet that is effective enough to defend a serious attack?
XP players prioritise attack, and low value since this is how they get the most xp from attacks.
they do not do much in the way of defending or building defence fleets - since whats the point? You arent going to be able to hold onto roids so why defend them. Just go out and get more instead - and xp at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Do you know better than all of them?
Do you? Did i say that i did? Is this something you imagined all by yourself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
But almost nobody can do this for a whole round. It gets boring, if nothing else. To sustain interest in the game, you need to interact with the community. And if people are playing the game and interacting with the community, I don't see much of a problem.
This partly touches on myearlier points regarding community and giving them more reason to *talk* with other players and to hang around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Fair point, but how would value-based alliance rankings help here?
This is another point you have imagined myself making. I have not said that it would, nor have i said that a different system would be no better in this regard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
It's very hard to prove absolute fairness or unfairness though. You may see some things as fair and I may not; you may see some things as unfair and I may not. Mostly, people's conception of fairness in a game like PA is a result of their pre-existing biases. I have known people to say that attacking late at night is unfair, or that waved attacks are unfair... the list is almost endless. Whose conception of fairness matters? Why should it be yours?
Another point you have imagined.
show me precisely where i have said my opinion of fairness matters more then someone elses?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
If someone loses their fleet, it is generally their own fault. It's not that hard to keep a fleet alive (after all, value players are meant to be active enough to do this, aren't they?), or to insure yourself against catastrophic losses (by staggering launch/return ETAs so you can't be totally fleet-caught).
Sometimes yes, but there are circumstances even the most active, or best of players cant stop. Say for example a fleetcatch on all three fleets - staggered into different waves , returning to base by a fleet whos value far exceeds that of what defence you can get.
The value player in this case has done all they can - and still is likely to lose their fleet
Is it their fault?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
It is similar and underlines what I said earlier about how subjective this debate is. I regard being up at 4am to run defence as unhealthy and being something that deters people from playing PA. You seem to believe the opposite; that being able to play and win during daylight hours is bad for the game.
Im beginning to think you are making up random points and then attributing them to me. A strawman style of argumentation
Yet again this is another thing you have imagined me saying. Point out where in my posts i have said being able to play and win during daylight hours is bad. I have said that being able to be extremely inactive and lazy, and yet still winning or doing even quite well is bad for the game, Not that playing during the day or not being up at 4am is bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
We probably disagree less than this debate would make it look. I do think some changes are needed to XP, but if we discard it now we will probably never replace it with anything better.
I would think we agree on more things in the game then we disagree on - Just not on this specific issue of xp.
Discarding xp , for me gets rid of something that has been warped far beyond its original intention. A poor mans 'deflector dish' deus ex machina for the game as it were.
It was intended to soften the blow of losing a fleet, it doesnt do this anymore, its replacing a core game mechanic.

A tolerable solution ( though one i would still be quite unhappy about ) would be a split ranking system. One for value, one for xp and one for a combination of both. None of these would have precidence over the other - it would simply be rankings of who won in each category.
Odds are the winner of one would probably also take the combo rank but its by no means certain. it depends how they are combined.
People will ofc argue over who really won, but by not saying that - its a matter of opinion for the players and not a definitive list.
value players will consider their ranking better, xp players will consider theirs better and so on

It would let those who play for value have their effort recognised, it would let those who play for xp have their contribution recognised and it would let those who did a mix of both have theirs recognised.
It also neatly sidesteps the problem of balancing the two systems ingame in terms of attacking, etc.
It still needs to be done for the combo ranking i guess but still
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Unread 6 Jan 2007, 12:42   #92
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Re: New Changes

I'm not going to reply specifically to any points raised, but here's my piece on XP. Personally, I don't care either way. I guess I did when the change was originally announced, but right now it doesn't affect my plans to play next round.

I happen to think this thread is amusing, because Phil is carrying such a torch for all the people who were aggrieved in round 16. There is, however, an elephant in the room he seems to be ignoring: stealing. If the game is changed to purely value, won't zikonian be given a huge advantage?

And I'm not saying that since stealing exists, XP must also exist. I'm simply pointing out that rabidly advocating the removal of XP glosses over the fact that XP is in fact an integral part of the game system that would require larger design decisions to remove. I assume you are aware of all these implications, but since you are not covering them in your advocacy you seem to be making the assumption that PAteam will be if they follow your advice. If you think PAteam are as useless and stupid as you present, why do you trust them to balance such a large change? Hell, you don't even trust them to maintain a sane bash limit.

Personally, I don't think PA suffers from a patch-work system. I think it thrives under the current system. PA has been developed in a fairly open model, with features being added and removed as they are tested in real rounds.

The idea that the game system is driving people away is humbug: time is driving people away. Decline is inevitable in all MMOGs. Reinventing the game to increase recruitment beyond the current dropoff rate requires more resources than PAteam have at hand. It'd be nice and all, but let's face it, it's not realistic.

If you have such better ideas about how PA should be designed, go make a clone. Several people have done this before and made fun games. I've seriously considered it, several times, but in the end I'd rather PAteam make the game and I play it. I might not agree with every design decision they make, but they have yet to do anything so bad that I can't have fun playing with my friends. Hell, I can even make fun of PAteam while I'm doing it. And really, I must be a simple man, because that's enough for me.
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