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25 Jul 2005, 23:34
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#1
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USS Oklahoma
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
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Middle East Jigsaw
I am not knowledgable on middle eastern history. Does anyone out there know or have any insight as to why the middle east got divided up so poorly at the end of WWI? It is my understanding that this was done when the Turkish Empire carved up.
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Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
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26 Jul 2005, 06:00
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#2
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
T. E. Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia) used to say that he, Winston Churchill and a few others drew up the map of the middle east over dinner one night in Cairo (as Churchill was there I'm sure there was an ample amount of alcohol involved).
Slightly longer version: Britain wrote a lot of checks during WWI: to Jewish settlers, to the French, and to some arab tribal leaders whom they encouraged to revolt against the Turks (Ibn Saud and Hussein of the Hejaz, who hated the Turks almost as much as they hated each other). After the war, Britain got a mandate over the middle east but couldn't afford the cost to garrison it. They kept Egypt (which they already had in all but name) and part of Palestine and carved up the rest to hand out as favors. Ibn Saud got what became Saudi Arabia. This enraged Hussein who was already the ruler of Mecca and Medina and so limit the damage, the British gave Transjordan (later Jordan) to Hussein's son Abdullah and Syria (which then included Lebanon) to another son Faisal. The French decided they wanted Syria and kicked Faisal out, so he got Iraq (which was formed from the bits that were left over) as a consolation prize.
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The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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26 Jul 2005, 12:55
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#3
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Tacitus is correct.
Also the palestinians was promised their own land.
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26 Jul 2005, 13:19
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#4
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tactitus
T. E. Lawrence (aka Lawrence of Arabia) used to say that he, Winston Churchill and a few others drew up the map of the middle east over dinner one night in Cairo (as Churchill was there I'm sure there was an ample amount of alcohol involved).
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can you please explain why winston was involved?
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hi
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26 Jul 2005, 13:36
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#5
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Tacitus is correct.
Also the palestinians was promised their own land.
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errrrr....
'no'
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26 Jul 2005, 14:03
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#6
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NEWSBOT
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The enby cave!
Posts: 4,872
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yahwe
errrrr....
'no'
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the children get confused, just pat them on the head a bit and smile serenely in the hope that one day they'll discover the truth.
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26 Jul 2005, 14:09
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#7
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Tacitus is correct.
Also the palestinians was promised their own land.
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I think the Jewish peoples were promised some land, but did n`t quite get what they wanted.
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26 Jul 2005, 14:37
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#8
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Tacitus is correct.
Also the palestinians was promised their own land.
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Were they a defined group at the time?
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26 Jul 2005, 15:26
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#9
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by Yahwe
can you please explain why winston was involved?
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He was Colonial Secretary at the time.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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26 Jul 2005, 20:10
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#10
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Presumably the people living in Palestine were defined as Palestinians.
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Were they? I thought the term palestinians was a modern invention.
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Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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26 Jul 2005, 20:19
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#11
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Back from timeout.
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 901
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by Yahwe
errrrr....
'no'
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errrrrr....
'yes'
So were the jews.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yahwe
Gay ducks only do it because it impresses their peers.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:03
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#12
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Oh. Didn't know that. I know Palestine has been defined as an area before the world wars, but not one that separated from the neighbours.
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Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:05
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#13
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by pyirt
I think the Jewish peoples were promised some land, but did n`t quite get what they wanted.
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Both were promised the same land, more or less.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:17
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
Oh. Didn't know that. I know Palestine has been defined as an area before the world wars, but not one that separated from the neighbours.
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Palestine was a country until the 14th May 1948 when the British left. there was a battle and the Jews won and the state of Israel was formed covering most of Palestine.
Edit: Britain left on the 14th, Israel was formed on the 15th.
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The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:30
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#15
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USS Oklahoma
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Don't terrorist bombing and attacks go back as far as the period after WWI and weren't the Arabs and the Jews both involved in bombing each other and the British?
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Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:39
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#16
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Ajaj Kapten!
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sweden
Posts: 638
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
@dda: Yes
@All systems Go: I believe that Palestine was a British Protectorate, never a country. I belonged to the Ottoman empire, and then the brits. It was never independent. When the British forces left, the jews declared the state of Israel and the Palestinians never got a state going. then there was the war. The arabcountries lost and we ended up with the situation we have now.
Where am I wrong?
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Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:39
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dda
Don't terrorist bombing and attacks go back as far as the period after WWI and weren't the Arabs and the Jews both involved in bombing each other and the British?
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After WW1 there was a lot of Jewish immigration to Palestine, (a lot came from Russia) and the formation of a Zionist organisation commited the formation of a Jewish homeland. Israel was not the only option, but the extreme right wing Zionists wanted Palestine. there were battles but I don't recall any major incidents (none come straight to mind). A lot of anger was caused by the immigration of the Jews. Limits on immigration were set and the persecution of Jews in Europe and the rise of Nazi Germany did not change these levels which undersvandably upset a lot of Jews.
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The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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26 Jul 2005, 21:51
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#18
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London
Posts: 3,347
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
@All systems Go: I believe that Palestine was a British Protectorate, never a country. I belonged to the Ottoman empire, and then the brits. It was never independent. When the British forces left, the jews declared the state of Israel and the Palestinians never got a state going. then there was the war. The arabcountries lost and we ended up with the situation we have now.
Where am I wrong?
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Oh thats right Palestine was a protectorate (fancy word for colony). It wasn't independent but there was a sizeable majority of Palestinians so to offer it to the Jews may be seen as unfair.
__________________
The 20th century has been characterised by three developments of great political importance. The growth of democracy; the growth of corporate power; and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
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26 Jul 2005, 22:30
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#19
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USS Oklahoma
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,500
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Do you know which countries were bribed?
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Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.
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26 Jul 2005, 23:22
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#20
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by Tactitus
He was Colonial Secretary at the time.
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he wasn't involved until 1921
when exactly did this imagined supper take place?
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hi
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26 Jul 2005, 23:25
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#21
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
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Originally Posted by dda
Do you know which countries were bribed?
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the truth is, perhaps unsurprisingly, far less exciting than some people here would like to pretend (especially the ones confused about palestine and the jews).
I imagine they'd be far happier if world history was more like star wars ...
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26 Jul 2005, 23:26
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#22
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Re: Middle East Jigsaw
Incidently it was the Ottoman empire that collapsed primarily because it chose the wrong side in WW1 but also because of its own corruption and internal issues. No longer had the capability of retaining its hold over the Middle East. The trade with the west had also eroded much of the religous cultural grip over its people and opened them up to new ideas and ways of thinking.
As for the carving up it wasnt just done over a meeting from what ive read. If your really interested i suggest reading 'A history of the arab peoples' by Albert Hourani. ITs an excellent book that tracks the history of the middle east.
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