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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 22:24   #151
Dante Hicks
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Since there are probably instances where people have been raised by gays (e.g. uncles and aunts after parents have died or whatever) maybe we should look at some case histories or something before blanket condemning an entire group of people
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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 22:46   #152
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Since there are probably instances where people have been raised by gays (e.g. uncles and aunts after parents have died or whatever) maybe we should look at some case histories or something before blanket condemning an entire group of people
Where not falling for that one.

You know what I admire about Stalin, 1 man got an entire country that pretty much was has the 3rd biggest population, maybe 4th, to fear him.

He was still an evil, evil man.
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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 23:10   #153
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

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Originally Posted by Phang
when you're below 16 ALL GAY PEOPLE ARE SCUM!
What on earth are you on about?

Once, a long time ago, I saw a post which was actually more incorrect than this one. But I think it was about 5 years ago.
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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 23:12   #154
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
What on earth are you on about?

Once, a long time ago, I saw a post which was actually more incorrect than this one. But I think it was about 5 years ago.
Try saying bum to an 8 year old. With that age group, it's like dealing with the extreme right.
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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 23:15   #155
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

If I say "Bum" they laugh. Your point?
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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 23:16   #156
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

yes.

the end.
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Unread 11 Dec 2003, 23:20   #157
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
If I say "Bum" they laugh. Your point?
It was an example of them not being mature. They're children for gods sake, you can hardly expect them to understand 'it's a perfectly valid life choice' or somesuch. Unless they've been raised with it, and frankly not many are, they're not going to be in the slightest bit tolerant to any differences they encounter, if they are shown an opportunity for some petty sadism.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 00:40   #158
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

If the only african in an all-white environment among 8 year olds isn't bullied, why should the one kid raised by same-sex parents? Children are good at differences.

And anyway, if the statistic is true that 10% are homosexual, then chances are high that their neighbour or cousin or whatever, someone in their vicinity, is gay. It won't be, and indeed isn't, a completely new idea for them.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 00:45   #159
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
If the only african in an all-white environment among 8 year olds isn't bullied, why should the one kid raised by same-sex parents? Children are good at differences.

And anyway, if the statistic is true that 10% are homosexual, then chances are high that their neighbour or cousin or whatever, someone in their vicinity, is gay. It won't be, and indeed isn't, a completely new idea for them.
You invent a situation and use it as evidence? Well done my lad. Even if it's true, it's an isolated incident.

And what statistic is this that you talk about? That 1/10 people are gay? Is this outwardly or are they still in the closet? Will their lifestyle bring them into contact with children (no jokes please)? Are the family likely to ostracise them?

It can only take one difference pointed out by one person for a group to latch onto; mob mentality is a complicated thing.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 01:42   #160
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Invent a situation? Hardly. I see it every day, all the time. At the kindergarten across the street, on the grounds of the primary school on the way to Uni, when I lived in Holland at my school there, where ever I looked the "odd one out" be it a lone african or the only girl in the kids' Judo club or whatever, they weren't bullied. It was the small kid with the freckles and glasses who was bullied.

Its been pumped my way all my life. I have no idea if its true or not, but it has been repeated pften enough since I was... ohhh, about 6... that I have trouble remembering its just a statistic sometimes. Are you serious you haven't heard it? "Chances are that two of you will turn out homosexual" said to a class of 20. I've heard it in Holland, in Sweden, in England, in France, I'm surpised you haven't.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 03:26   #161
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
Well?
why not...as long as the couple can provide a stable, loving environment...they have, imo, every right to raise a family as a heterosexual couple does.

I know a few gay couples that are more suitable parents than hetero couples that already have kids

p.s...I know I'm a bit late arriving, as everyone is already debating furiously, so just ignore my response if you want...you won't hurt my feelings
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 09:51   #162
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
If this ultimately means that we have to combat bigotry, and offer all the support we can to any victims of it, simply to ensure basic public moral standards, and children being able to be adopted by a perfectly loving and worthy couple, then so be it.
I agree to some respects, that we should indeed combat the bigotry and problems in society that would cause a child of a gay couple to be bullied. The problem however is that currently that bigotry exists. It's like saying that we need more houses and we have a field which we can build houses on, and then force people to go and live in the field even though it is damn cold out there and the houses won't be built for another 20 years.

The primary role of the state in this case should be to protect the children, that is paramount and should override all other issues such as percieved prejudices and so on. The question then becomes one of whether the state is doing the best thing to protect the child in the current climate? I would say that in the current climate the best thing for the state to do is to not allow homosexual adoption, however I have no problem at all with attempts to change the climate, which is fundamentally unfair. I have no problem with homosexual adoption per se, only in the current environment.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 10:03   #163
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
I love how you have blanket accepted (and then projected onto me) the unsubstantiated assertion that somehow children of homosexual parents will automatically suffer some vast drop in the quality of life, that their childhood will automatically be, as you put it, a 'living Hell', and that this adoption will entail great suffering by the children.

Once again, even if that were the case (which it is not) do you think it is then better to have stay in orphanages and foster homes? Is that the Xanadu you would give them as opposed to the 'Living Hell' of adoption with a homosexual family?

I am disapointed in you Nod, normally you are the first person to challenge silly and baseless assertions like that.
I think you would find that a child from a homosexual home would have serious problems and would have a hard time beeing accepted by both friends, and friends parents.

Not everyone are as politically correct as you Verm.

PS! Think about yourselfs. As far as I can tell, most posts are consentrated on homosexual males. Why?
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 10:05   #164
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dilly_D
why not...as long as the couple can provide a stable, loving environment...they have, imo, every right to raise a family as a heterosexual couple does.

I know a few gay couples that are more suitable parents than hetero couples that already have kids

p.s...I know I'm a bit late arriving, as everyone is already debating furiously, so just ignore my response if you want...you won't hurt my feelings
I don't question their skill at parenting, but the society around them.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 10:09   #165
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

kids can be cruel


first 15-18 years would be a mental challenge.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 11:18   #166
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

As I've already said, we're full of presumptions on how society would treat a child in such a situation. Since there numerous cases of children being brought up on unorthodox scenarios (and almost certainly some where people have had openly gay people bringing them up), I don't see why we need to rely on thought experiments.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 11:32   #167
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

a secure home with 2 loving parents is better than being left in a childrens home, surely.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 11:32   #168
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As I've already said, we're full of presumptions on how society would treat a child in such a situation. Since there numerous cases of children being brought up on unorthodox scenarios (and almost certainly some where people have had openly gay people bringing them up), I don't see why we need to rely on thought experiments.

Indeed, I did make the assumption that it would be detrimentaql, however my conclusion was only provisional on more data. I have heard of several examples (via the media) where gay parents were not detrimental, however of course this is not a good sample at all, and any real judgements should be based on more sound reasoning. I would posit that much of the issue also rests on demographic groups as well, though again it would be important to make sure a proper study is done.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 11:34   #169
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
a secure home with 2 loving parents is better than being left in a childrens home, surely.

Depends how loving they are.


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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 12:30   #170
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Exclamation Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As I've already said, we're full of presumptions on how society would treat a child in such a situation. Since there numerous cases of children being brought up on unorthodox scenarios (and almost certainly some where people have had openly gay people bringing them up), I don't see why we need to rely on thought experiments.
Sorry, but it was really alot to read. I got to 100ish posts, and gave up.

Fat people, physically challenged people, mentally unstable people, drug abusing people, homosexual people, chronically ill people etc all have one thing in comon. They have to work harder and better to get the same acceptance. They have to be nicer and more open to be liked. They have to be carefull of what they say for people to relax and be comfortable in their company.

I know many decent fat people, many nice and thoughtfull mentally ill people, a good deal of honest drug abusers, and a few homosexuals, but while I do know this, in general, these are not groups of people that are normal however prejudistict(sp?) that makes me.

And children are far worse at judging eachother. The harsh reality, and the reason that I asked this question is; In Norway, a famous TV reporter, gay, has payed a woman in the US to give birth to a child for him. All that, pardon my french, ****ing glamour for a gay man to be a father. There's got to be something special about this issue, for better or worse, else there would be no issue.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 15:05   #171
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

The thing about the issue which makes it "special" is that people are to thick headed to realise that there is no reason gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt children.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 15:21   #172
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
There's got to be something special about this issue, for better or worse, else there would be no issue.
That's not really an argument though. I'm sure there are all sorts of unspeakable arguments floating out there which fortunately (in general) have been beaten down to the point where no-one goes round saying them. My mother for instance used to constantly argue that we should sterilise everyone in Africa for their own good. But I digress.

As Vermillion has noted, bullying is a difficult one. Some people are bullied who ought not, and others are lefft alone who "should" be bullied. One of the toughest kids in my school (who eventually got expelled for almost killing someone who got the same haircut as him) had a stutter and came from a single parent family. I remember once one of the teachers had a serious talk with us that we can't take the piss out of him because he stuttered. No, I thought - we can't take the piss out of him because he's an utter psycho.

Not all schools are equally prejudiced (generally stemming from the area they are found in). If, upon examining the case history of "already existing children of homosexuals" we find that each and every one of them suffered a catalogue of abuse, then sure - we can all agree on not putting kids through that. I doubt that is the case though. Often, the kids who end up going nuts and killing themselves are the ones with two parents (albeit not happy parents or homes). We can't tell what'll be good for a particular child of course (until it's too late) but we can at least look at some other cases.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 16:04   #173
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Exclamation Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
The thing about the issue which makes it "special" is that people are to thick headed to realise that there is no reason gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt children.
And the reason for this is?

Call it the inevitable truth of society's effect on the individual. I can, just like the German soldiers killing millions of jews, blame it on society and leadership (the State). Noone needs to take responsibility, but at the same time, noone are allowed to think differently.

Quite cleverly, everyone are surpressed under the ironic democratic rule of majority. "We are more, hence we decide."

Justice?

No, but truth, yes.
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hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 16:26   #174
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

just to take the thread off to a tangent for a bit, went to the gym the other day and after working out walked into the changing room and saw a bloke had brought his blonde twin daughters aged around 6 id say, to go swimming. While he was getting changed he let them run around stark (no)bollocked naked whilst around 20 other men tried not to look anywhere near their general direction. And when i mean run around i mean run around, the little shíts were playing a combination of hide and seek and tag whilst 50 yr old men tried to get changed and hold a towel to their balls at the same time (to hide their balls or cover an erection i couldnt tell). I couldnt be arsed with that so stripped right down had a shower and changed like normal.

I have empirical evidence that i am not a peadophile.


But anyway as long as the 'couple' trying to adopt can give a suitably loving and stable home it doesnt matter to me who or what they are.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 16:28   #175
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
I don't question their skill at parenting, but the society around them.
who cares what society thinks...as long as the gay couple can provide a stable, loving home for the child..they have every right to raise a family, kinda like what I said in my last post

p.s..it makes sense in my head, but I just woke up so it may not make sense to you folks
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 16:41   #176
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Read my previous post and you will understand me.

Hint: They are the minority, so we as a majority decides.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I wish we could trademark for a less shitty poster
hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 16:48   #177
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
Read my previous post and you will understand me.

Hint: They are the minority, so we as a majority decides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
And the reason for this is?

Call it the inevitable truth of society's effect on the individual. I can, just like the German soldiers killing millions of jews, blame it on society and leadership (the State). Noone needs to take responsibility, but at the same time, noone are allowed to think differently.

Quite cleverly, everyone are surpressed under the ironic democratic rule of majority. "We are more, hence we decide."

Justice?

No, but truth, yes.
So what you're trying to say is...

'Gay adoptions shouldn't be allowed because the state doesn't allow them and they force people to believe the same way'.

Whut?

[edit]

And that people are wrong if they have a minority opinion.

Madness.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 17:09   #178
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
So what you're trying to say is...

'Gay adoptions shouldn't be allowed because the state doesn't allow them and they force people to believe the same way'.

Whut?

[edit]

And that people are wrong if they have a minority opinion.

Madness.
Gay adoptions shouldn't be allowed because the state wich is elected by the majority doesn't accept them, and the majority force the majority into believing it is right, because they have proof, regardless of the hypothesis of "..what if we where more open minded..". The conclusion would be that it's an evil circle. Dumb people decide that dumb people are correct, because they always have been, and probably will continue to be, in a majority. Atleast in a democratic state.

Obviously, people in a minority not neccessarily are wrong, but they are a minority and aslong as the majority (read: the ones who defines our society in general) are indeed a majority, it will continue.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I wish we could trademark for a less shitty poster
hahahahahahaha, get it?
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 17:13   #179
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

I'm still not getting what you're trying to say. Many things have been done because of reasons other than popularity.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 17:17   #180
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
Read my previous post and you will understand me.

Hint: They are the minority, so we as a majority decides.
I understand that we are the majority, and therefore make the decisions...and with that, gay couples will have a long time to wait before they're allowed the adopt. But, here in Canada, gay marriage is just around the corner...so perhaps gay adoption will come soon too.
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Unread 12 Dec 2003, 18:01   #181
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Re: Should gay people be allowed to have children?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynical Oracle
Obviously, people in a minority not neccessarily are wrong, but they are a minority and aslong as the majority (read: the ones who defines our society in general) are indeed a majority, it will continue.
There is a reason we have rights, which are deterimined by constitutions and codified into laws, that is so that the vagueries of popular opinion cannot sway them. The whole gay marriage thing in Canada started not because the democratic will of the people wanted the law changed, but because the law banning gay marriages was struck down by provincial supreme courts (two of them) which said that, will of the people or not, this is wrong, according to the principles of this country.

Just because the majority wants smething does not make it right, nor does that mean it should instantly happen. If the majority of people in the US wanted gun restrictions and/or registration, would the NRA lie down and die because they are minority? No because in the US a constitution protects certain rights, minority or majority.

No law shall discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.
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