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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 00:46   #1
Gayle29uk
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Illinois governer clears death row.

I can't see any other threads on this which surprises me but for once someone got it right [bbc.co.uk].

After several recent miscarriage of justice cases the governor of Illinois (the day before his term ends) has commuted every single death sentence to life imprisonment.
Quote:
"I'm going to sleep well tonight knowing that I made the right decision," said Governor Ryan.

"Because the Illinois death penalty system is arbitrary and capricious - and therefore immoral - I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death," he said
Whether it was done on the last day of his term or not (insert future political motive here), it's a massive boost for human rights in the US. As long as the judicial system is fallible we simply cannot justify a death penalty in any country.

Congratulations George Ryan, no matter what else you've done you did good with this one..
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 00:48   #2
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 00:58   #3
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I'm in support of the idea that murderers should be executed, but admitting that the justice system is crap as justification for moving convicts off of death row seems a fairly good one.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 01:00   #4
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Re: Illinois governer clears death row.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
I can't see any other threads on this which surprises me but for once someone got it right [bbc.co.uk].

After several recent miscarriage of justice cases the governor of Illinois (the day before his term ends) has commuted every single death sentence to life imprisonment.

Whether it was done on the last day of his term or not (insert future political motive here), it's a massive boost for human rights in the US. As long as the judicial system is fallible we simply cannot justify a death penalty in any country.

Congratulations George Ryan, no matter what else you've done you did good with this one..
Unfortunatly that is the problem with the death penalty, no matter how much evidence you have, how can you ever be sure the person is guilty?
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 01:00   #5
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 01:06   #6
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Re: Re: Illinois governer clears death row.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
how can you ever be sure the person is guilty?
For death row I believe that they should be found guilty at every level of court in a country. They should then be given a period of 1-2 years in prison to allow for any last-minute evidence for their defense to arise.

Only after this should they be executed.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 01:08   #7
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Re: Re: Illinois governer clears death row.

Quote:
Originally posted by Nixjim
Unfortunatly that is the problem with the death penalty, no matter how much evidence you have, how can you ever be sure the person is guilty?
But isn't that also a problem with incarceration?

Quick, open the prisons!

If you insist on absolute certainty as a prerequisite for justice then you will never see either.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 01:12   #8
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Re: Re: Re: Illinois governer clears death row.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
But isn't that also a problem with incarceration?

Quick, open the prisons!

If you insist on absolute certainty as a prerequisite for justice then you will never see either.
Absolute certainty as a prerequisite for 'permanent' justice, reasonable doubt for everything else.

Not that I'm coming down on either side of the death penalty argument though.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 01:17   #9
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Re: Re: Re: Illinois governer clears death row.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
But isn't that also a problem with incarceration?

Quick, open the prisons!

If you insist on absolute certainty as a prerequisite for justice then you will never see either.
The difference is that if a man is later proven innocent, he can be freed from prison. Doesn't do him much good if he's already been executed, and many innocent people have been executed over the years.
I'm all for the death penalty if someone deserves it, but how do you really know?





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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 07:10   #10
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Re: Re: Re: Illinois governer clears death row.

Quote:
Originally posted by Intervention
For death row I believe that they should be found guilty at every level of court in a country. They should then be given a period of 1-2 years in prison to allow for any last-minute evidence for their defense to arise.

Only after this should they be executed.
This is actually what usually happens..most executions take 10-15 years to actually occur. The appeals system allows them to face trial repeatedly on practically every level of the court system which can drag out for a very long time.

Illinois though has a horrible record and I think he did the right thing. There were just too many questions.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 08:08   #11
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has commuted every single death sentence to life imprisonment..
horray - thats so much better for the prissoner..
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 08:36   #12
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(Rant Begin)

LIfe imprisonment?

I believe the "Eye for an Eye" "Tooth for a Tooth"

So murder them all......
(Rant over)
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 14:05   #13
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I'd probably take suicide over life inprisonment.

I'd also take it over the death penilty.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 16:05   #14
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 16:07   #15
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1. I am against the death penalty, for many reasons, but mostly beacause, who can judge others actions? And also the fact that is easy to take the wrong guy.
2. It was awesome that the old guy did it. It shows there is still hope. (At least i think so)
3. Life sentence is (in my eyes) harder then death penalty. Death is freedom, life is not. Have any of you ever been behind bars? I would not recomend it, and if i knew that i would spend the rest off my life in there (Whit no chance off parole) i would probably kill myself.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 18:41   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monkeypimp
I'd probably take suicide over life inprisonment.

I'd also take it over the death penilty.
According to one figure (albeit a rather vague extrapolation) in a Human Rights Watch report, up to 140,000 inmates could have been raped while in prison in the US.

I've no idea as to the level of murders/fatal assaults/deaths in prison (due to illhealth or disease) but I'd imagine they're probably higher than those officially killed by the state.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 18:47   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
According to one figure (albeit a rather vague extrapolation) in a Human Rights Watch report, up to 140,000 inmates could have been raped while in prison in the US.

I've no idea as to the level of murders/fatal assaults/deaths in prison (due to illhealth or disease) but I'd imagine they're probably higher than those officially killed by the state.
yes but nobody really cares about people getting raped in prison unless it is women getting raped by the guards.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 18:54   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
yes but nobody really cares about people getting raped in prison unless it is women getting raped by the guards.
This is fair enough then. Just wondering as to why the liberal preoccupation with the death penalty is all. "The state killing peope is wrong. But it's fine if you put people in prison for their entire lives, let them be raped/killed by other inmates."

As to women being raped by guards, wasn't there some instance where Amy Fisher (of "The Amy Fisher Story" fame) was suing some state for guards allegedly raping her? Or is that a case of my brain presuming she looks like Drew Barrymore and then some wishful thinking?
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 18:59   #19
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I hope other governors will follow suit.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 19:06   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick
You dont imagine that if you lock people up until they die, that they will somehow manage to die by something...
"Sadly" it's not just lifers who die in prison. And I doubt the idea is for peoples who are facing to life sentence to be murdered. Otherwise the state could just do that.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 19:14   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
This is fair enough then. Just wondering as to why the liberal preoccupation with the death penalty is all. "The state killing peope is wrong. But it's fine if you put people in prison for their entire lives, let them be raped/killed by other inmates."

As to women being raped by guards, wasn't there some instance where Amy Fisher (of "The Amy Fisher Story" fame) was suing some state for guards allegedly raping her? Or is that a case of my brain presuming she looks like Drew Barrymore and then some wishful thinking?
I'm pretty liberal, and for similar reasons to what you point out the death penalty isn't really a high priority for me. But when I hear really stupid arguments (either way really) about it I have an uncontrollable urge to respond.

Most people on death row probably would be shot and killed before too long on the outside too, so I don't feel entirely bad about the occasional prison murders. The whole rape in prison thing pisses me off even more than the death penalty, but I've almost never seen anyone else who gave a **** so it doesn't come up often.

mostly though, there are just way too many bigger problems in the world today than to spend time fighting the DP. Doesn't take away anything from the good governor tho. Kudos.

And I've no clue about Amy.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 20:00   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick
WHO VACUUMED YOUR BRAIN OUT AND STUCK IT IN A JAR!!!!???
you care about 150 people of whom, at most 10 are "innocent" even though between them, they have killed and raped over 500?
Here in civilised society, most people believe executing innocent people is morally wrong.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 20:10   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick
so he took 150 people who were going to die.
and he said they have to stay in jail until they die.

WHO VACUUMED YOUR BRAIN OUT AND STUCK IT IN A JAR!!!!???
you care about 150 people of whom, at most 10 are "innocent" even though between them, they have killed and raped over 500?

So you think killing a bunch of innocent people is ok as long as some guilty ones are killed too ?
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 20:26   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by acropolis
wow this is the second time in five years that i've been pleasantly surprised by humans.
What was the first?
--------

From what I've read in this thread (I've not got a great knowledge of the situation), it was right for these people to lose their death penalties.

However, I do believe that the death penalty is acceptable, assuming the 'innocent' people have no decent evidence that they're innocent. Baring in mind that they do have sufficient time to prove their innocence, I don't see how they're going to prove otherwise in any other time in jail.
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Unread 12 Jan 2003, 22:00   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick

WHO VACUUMED YOUR BRAIN OUT AND STUCK IT IN A JAR!!!!???
you care about 150 people of whom, at most 10 are "innocent" even though between them, they have killed and raped over 500?
Ah Rick, up to your usual high intellectual standards of posting, and flavouring your usual posting with your also-standard invention of statistics.

Firstly, in 1998 alone, 13 people have been proven innocent after they were sentenced to death. Do much for your "ten at most" invented comment.

So that leaves about 135, who you say have killed and raped over 500 people! Impressive, This state has the most profligate criminals in the world. Apparently, each of them has an average of 3.7 victims. Or could this be yet another stat you just invented?


Getting past the usual Rick-fiction, the point is even if you WERE sure that these people were all guilty, which we are clearly not, executing them neither levels the balance nor brings back the dead. Though I generally oppose it, I might still be able to accept the death penalty if I knew it was being applied correctly, without bias due to race or socio-economic background, and if I knew that all those executed were most certainly guilty. None of these three are present in this case, so really the governor took the only reasonable option.
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Unread 13 Jan 2003, 17:30   #26
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What was the first?
--------
I was genuinely stunned when the good people of Yugoslavia actually went and voted milosevic out of office.

Until then I had always been of the assumption that anyone committing mass genocide will always be loved by his people.

The possibility that people can remove cruel tyrants peacefully without putting in place someone even worse leaves hope for us yet (to me at least).
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Unread 13 Jan 2003, 18:48   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chrism
I saw it this morning. I'm quite impressed by the guy.
You can be impressed by his actions but don't be impressed by the man.

Its clearly an action taken to change his public image. He is going to be found guilty of numerous crimes he commited while Secretary of State of Illinois.

Some of cynically suggested he is trying to get in better with his future neighbors.

He is a classic crooked politician who has no moral center but just does things for his own political ends.
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Unread 13 Jan 2003, 23:29   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
. . .
Congratulations George Ryan, no matter what else you've done you did good with this one..
Heh, politics of death penalties aside, do you know anything about this guy? Your statement 'no matter what else you've done' seems to indicate that you might.

This guy is a career politician who will be lucky if he can stay out of prison after he leaves office. It sometimes seems like he has had nonstop scandals since he has been in office. (I live in a border state & get news from both states.)

This was from last August: -->Federal prosecutors are investigating bribery at the secretary of state's office during George Ryan's eight years running the agency. Dozens of people have been convicted, including the man Ryan appointed to root out corruption. Other top aides and friends have been accused of obstruction or influence-peddling.

While you may agree with this solitary act of blanket sentence commutation of death row inmates, I doubt you would find much common ground with his republican background. I certainly would not go so far as to think his actions are due to any enlightenment on his part. I also believe that the inmates would still be on death row if his 'investigation' had not turned up any improprieties.


Dibdevlin, d*mn your faster fingers
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Unread 14 Jan 2003, 20:48   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iniluki

Killing people isn't justified. No matter for what reason.
Let me get this straight. If a guy walks into my home, kills my mother, father, two brothers, my niece and three cousins and is about to shoot me, am I not justified in shooting him to save my life and that of my uncle, aunt and two grandparents?

I just wanted to be clear, because you said killing people is not justified. Or did you mean something else?

Perhaps you meant governments executing people for their crimes is not justified. If so, please be more clear in the future.

I am generally against the death penalty, but I have no problem killing a man who desperately needs killing.
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Unread 14 Jan 2003, 20:52   #30
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Originally posted by Lord Talon
<snip>
That's why I mentioned other possible motives

In this one case he actually got something right though, no matter the reasons why.
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Unread 15 Jan 2003, 23:50   #31
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still waiting for a reply from Iniluki.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 11:19   #32
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Iniluki is dead.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 13:11   #33
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I think it's quite obvious you are correct. Any general rule like "it's wrong to kill people" can obviously be pointed out as incorrect in certain situations.

My main general rule is that torture is always wrong - but even then you can concoct a situation to make it justified : (e.g. 1000 nukes are distributed around the world all linked to a main timer which only one man can stop, he refuses to, etc, etc)
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 14:34   #34
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i wouldn't call that killing, i would call it defending.

if you shoot him, your interest in that case is incapacitating him so that he can't kill your family.

his death may be an unfortunate side effect, but one that he must ultimately accept (his fault etc.).

whereas the state has the opposite interest in mind. they are looking to kill him, and incapacitation is just a pretty standard side effect with that.

I'm gonna hold with dante hicks on torture, but I'd say that there really is no 'rule of thumb' for when either killing or torture should be ok. I'd say that if an individual sees either as necessary at a particular moment, and does it, it should be reviewed at a later date to see if it was a necesssary (or reasonable at the time) action. So both defending your parents and stopping all those nukes would be found to be ok.

However, I would see it particularly horrible if there was any actual rule in the books that said "if a person wanders onto your property, and looks threatening, you are automatically entitled to kill him"
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 14:54   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iniluki
I don't believe in god etc, but the legal systems do.
Guns aren't entirely illegal in the UK. Some farmers are allowed to have shotguns for livestock purposes. (as far as I know).

But the law states that reasonable action to defend yourself is fine. Recently a man (in North London I think) was imprisoned for attacking (killing) a burgular. I think the judge (or jury) said it was fine to attack a burgular but the fact he had stabbed the guy 23 times was a little excessive. If you stabbed someone just the once who entered your home and he happened to die, if you had a competent lawyer you'd probably get off.

But all of that is moot, since there's plenty of things the laws says which isn't necessarily fair or right, etc. I think if you did manage to get your hands on a gun (or even a baseball bat), in the situation that Texan outlines it'd be silly not to try and twat the guy.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 17:42   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Iniluki
It's a moot point as if you where in england the only thing you could shot him with is a pellet gun.

According to the bible, its pretty clear on the subject of killing "Thou shall not kill".

I don't believe in god etc, but the legal systems do.

Funny that isn't it.
Since I don't own a gun, the point is even more moot. I do own a sword and a bunch of various sized knives. Plus I could bash the guy with my 17 inch monitor.
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