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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 12:26   #1
Texan
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Anti-war rallies scheduled across U.S.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/17/war...sts/index.html

This shows that citizens of the United States are not all warmongers as many of you seem to think.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 12:30   #2
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I've never once thought that the citizens were blood-thirsty lunatics.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 12:31   #3
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Watch any major news network and nightly you will be able to view :


Charachter Assasination
Propaganda
"What if" Segments
Crazy ass generals who want war
Crazy ass politicans who want war
Troop Movements
Constant bombardment of how many things Iraq/N.Korea has done wrong.



i was watching CNN (which i considered up till this point as fairly stable) and was amazed to watch them literally perform the most blatent propaganda against the North Korean leader Kim.

Also how come bush refers to other world leaders as "Prime minister Blair" or "President Putin" but merely refers to the soverign leader of Iraq as "Saddam"



call your friends by their titles and your enemies by their first names?


The people of america might not want a fight but the media and government sure as hell do.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 13:02   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Intervention
I've never once thought that the citizens were blood-thirsty lunatics.
Ditto. Of course there are a few jingoistic morons (I have no doubt we have some as well) but the American government is the bit we can't stand.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 13:19   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
Ditto. Of course there are a few jingoistic morons (I have no doubt we have some as well) but the American government is the bit we can't stand.
Well, for me it's not just the American government but the whole state-capitalist nexus which I don't like.

If American business (say the boards + management of the entire Fortune 500) was entirely against the war, I doubt it would be happening.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 13:48   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Well, for me it's not just the American government but the whole state-capitalist nexus which I don't like.

If American business (say the boards + management of the entire Fortune 500) was entirely against the war, I doubt it would be happening.
I won't go into my whole 'Americam corporations should list the Senators and Congressmen they own on their assets lists' speech. Actually, that could make a good thread later on today
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 14:02   #7
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they are going about it all wrong, they want to do an old skool hippie freak out.

and they should also say they are protesting because they dont want a war, and not because its mr. kings birthday.

bloody americans, they cant even protest properly :/
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 18:47   #8
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And they somehow think that they'll stop a war standing in a big group with pathetic signs and chants. What a waste of time. At least it'll be entertaining to watch on the news if it turns into a riot.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 18:53   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cuddley_Battleship
And they somehow think that they'll stop a war standing in a big group with pathetic signs and chants. What a waste of time. At least it'll be entertaining to watch on the news if it turns into a riot.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 19:05   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cuddley_Battleship
And they somehow think that they'll stop a war standing in a big group with pathetic signs and chants. What a waste of time.
What else would you suggest they do? I agree it is just futile pissing in the wind, but I sympathise. There's no real easy answer.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 19:11   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
What else would you suggest they do? I agree it is just futile pissing in the wind, but I sympathise. There's no real easy answer.
they could always take guns..

learn by example and what have you!
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 19:17   #12
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Ofc the media wants a war, I'm sure CNN's ratings would skyrocket for all the 'on-location' footage. The 1991 war has been getting a ton of airtime on the Learning Channel, History Channel, Discovery, etc., pretty much since that war was over.


And there's only 2 ways people can protest a war: Protest thru editorials, protests, etc, or protest thru changing their vote.

And Bush won't be leaving the White House for nearly 2 years at the earliest - voting isn't an option yet, leaving only protests.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 19:34   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Intervention
I've never once thought that the citizens were blood-thirsty lunatics.
If only the United States were a democracy, the citizens would be able to elect a government that didnt favour war.

oh
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:19   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
If only the United States were a democracy, the citizens would be able to elect a government that didnt favour war.

oh
It is a representative democracy. There is a reason why the founding fathers chose a representative democracy. It is known as bread and circuses. The people will always choose more and more bread and circuses even though that is not what is best for the republic.

Why do I even bother with you people?
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:27   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
It is a representative democracy. There is a reason why the founding fathers chose a representative democracy. It is known as bread and circuses. The people will always choose more and more bread and circuses even though that is not what is best for the republic.

Why do I even bother with you people?
We're aware of the 'bread and circuses' problem, I believe Nodrog was referring to the disgrace that was your last election and/or the fact that corporate America owns your politicians.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:30   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gayle28uk
We're aware of the 'bread and circuses' problem, I believe Nodrog was referring to the disgrace that was your last election and/or the fact that corporate America owns your politicians.
Actually I think he was probably just taking a bit of a cheap shot.

But yeah, the electoral system makes it fk'n hard to do anything (i.e. build a proper democratic movement) as does the corporate domination of politics. Obviously though we could all do more, and much to our shame we don't. I for instance, instead of just posting here worthlessly could be standing outside Stockwell tube station in the freezing cold selling copies of the utterly unreadable "Weekly Worker"*.

* = Actually, the WW isn't that bad, although it's basically the left's gossip column.
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:31   #17
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"Weekly Worker"*.
Better than NSW or Red Pepper
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 22:57   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
It is a representative democracy. There is a reason why the founding fathers chose a representative democracy. It is known as bread and circuses. The people will always choose more and more bread and circuses even though that is not what is best for the republic.

Why do I even bother with you people?
If only the United States were a Constitutional Republic, the citizens would be able to elect a government that didnt favour war.

oh
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:00   #19
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Re: Anti-war rallies scheduled across U.S.
Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/17/war...sts/index.html

This shows that citizens of the United States are not all warmongers as many of you seem to think.
Does the fact that there is no mention in that article of the globally co-ordinated anti-war rallies that actually occured thoughout the world over the past 36 hours tell us anything?
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Unread 18 Jan 2003, 23:08   #20
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Re: Re: Anti-war rallies scheduled across U.S.
Quote:
Originally posted by sayonara
Does the fact that there is no mention in that article of the globally co-ordinated anti-war rallies that actually occured thoughout the world over the past 36 hours tell us anything?
Nothing new.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 02:44   #21
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Re: Re: Re: Anti-war rallies scheduled across U.S.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Nothing new.
Lol, touché
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 09:18   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
If only the United States were a Constitutional Republic, the citizens would be able to elect a government that didnt favour war.

oh
This from Scottland? Why did Scottland join the United Kingdom?
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 09:32   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
This from Scottland? Why did Scottland join the United Kingdom?
what
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 11:24   #24
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Originally posted by Captain T'Bolt
Because Wallace was stupid and got himself killed, Bob teh Bruce was a crappy ruler and the Brits slaughtered all resistance?
Thank you. That was my point.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 11:26   #25
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Quote:
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Thank you. That was my point.
I dont see it.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 16:05   #26
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I resent that comment


My state > your pissy little country
In this context NSW=New Socialist Worker. Nothing to do with Oz at all :P
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 17:33   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
I dont see it.
Gordon,
What type of government does Scotland have now? What type of government did Scotland have before it had it's current government? How did Scotland come from having it's previous government to its current government? List the various governments and how they were changed through the ages.
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 23:44   #28
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Stop having a go at the UK. If Scotland wanted to leave, they could take a vote. The plain fact is, the majority of scots are content in the UK and without brainwashing classes in school to ensure that.

Stop dodging the question:

Why is your government ****?
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Unread 19 Jan 2003, 23:47   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
Gordon,
What type of government does Scotland have now? What type of government did Scotland have before it had it's current government? How did Scotland come from having it's previous government to its current government? List the various governments and how they were changed through the ages.
who cares?
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 00:05   #30
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I have heard rumors about big protests 15. february.


Quote:
And they somehow think that they'll stop a war standing in a big group with pathetic signs and chants. What a waste of time. At least it'll be entertaining to watch on the news if it turns into a riot.
That is at least doing something for their beliefs. It may not stop anything, but at least the people are trying. You can't do anything more than that.
Riots are stupid, and very seldom helps. It should be a last resort in any demonstration, or rally, and should only be used as a desperate attempt to overthrow the cops, when they start to get ugly. 90% off the time, its cops or nazis that starts the figthing.
Of course, if more people abandoned corpoarte media, in favor for more free minded press, (or the best, read both and make up their own minds for once) then riots and militant actions could do something. But now, all that happens is that the rioters are shown as un-political bullys, and that they started, etc. The truth is for sale. And the demonstrators don't have the cash.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 20:56   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
who cares?
You were the one who brought up democracy on this thread. Now you say who cares.

If only the United States were a democracy, the citizens would be able to elect a government that didnt favour war.

Then you go on to ignore the fact that Scottland was conquered by a foreign power and had it's current government thrust upon them by the United Kingdom, a constitutional monarchy
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 20:58   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
a constitutional monarchy
... with democratic elections. sorry, i dont see your point
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:13   #33
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Originally posted by wu_trax
... with democratic elections. sorry, i dont see your point
The United States has democratic elections. Last time I checked, all United States citizens over the age of 18 were allowed to vote. Gordon was claiming that the United States would be better if it was a democracy.

I was pointing out that even though U.S. and UK election systems were very similiar, the United Kindom is a constitutional monarchy while the United States is a representative democracy.

His ideas are messed up.

Also his political system was imposed on the area he comes from, while my political systems was selected by the people.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:16   #34
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I'm begining to get the feeling that sarcasm isn't an American concept........
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:32   #35
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Originally posted by Cmdr_Cyrax
I'm begining to get the feeling that sarcasm isn't an American concept........
Quite.

Texan, Nodrog was (I think) saying "The Americans could have elected an anti-war (or non-pro if you prefer) government. They didn't, and thus deserve a measure of blame for the actions of the government that was elected. The majority of Americans didn't vote for a non-war government." (Indeed, the majority of Americans didn't vote at all).

If you knew all of this then what the hell is all this stuff about Scotland? A completley inaccurate and irrelevent analogy? Or just a "shut up, your country smells" type point?
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:36   #36
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Originally posted by Texan
This from Scottland? Why did Scottland join the United Kingdom?
This link has more to do with this thread than that.

And there's only one T. Cheers.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:40   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
The United States has democratic elections. Last time I checked, all United States citizens over the age of 18 were allowed to vote. Gordon was claiming that the United States would be better if it was a democracy.
well, gore got a few 100,000 more votes, but didnt become president. thats not what i understand as a democracy.

but we have had this discussion about 50,000 times in this forum and im somewhat tiered of it :/
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:47   #38
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back to the topic (or at least the title), I'm going to one of these protest marches next month. Is anyone else?
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:51   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Texan, Nodrog was (I think) saying "The Americans could have elected an anti-war (or non-pro if you prefer) government. They didn't, and thus deserve a measure of blame for the actions of the government that was elected. The majority of Americans didn't vote for a non-war government." (Indeed, the majority of Americans didn't vote at all).
Heh. War (pro-, anti- or non-) was so not an issue in the 2000 US elections.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 21:54   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Heh. War (pro-, anti- or non-) was so not an issue in the 2000 US elections.
Very true, but it's not like the hawkish opinions of the Republicans were kept secret. If you elect a bunch of hippies and they turn into psychopaths upon gaining power then you might have a fair point in claiming ignorance. But Bush, et al? Hardly.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 22:30   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Very true, but it's not like the hawkish opinions of the Republicans were kept secret. If you elect a bunch of hippies and they turn into psychopaths upon gaining power then you might have a fair point in claiming ignorance. But Bush, et al? Hardly.
You must have a different memory of the election than I do.

It was Gore who kept reminding the voters that he voted in favor of the first Gulf War in 1991 (one of the few Democratic members of Congress who did so). He also defended Clinton's use of US troops in Bosnia, Somalia, etc (he later conceded that Somalia had been a mistake, but admitted that he had supported it at the time).

Bush was widely regarded as knowing nothing about foreign policy and consequently said as little as possible on the subject (except to criticize Clinton's "military adventures"). His pre-election announcement of Powell as his choice for Secretary of State was to help underline his non-interventionist approach to foreign policy.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 22:31   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
The United States has democratic elections. Last time I checked, all United States citizens over the age of 18 were allowed to vote. Gordon was claiming that the United States would be better if it was a democracy.

I was pointing out that even though U.S. and UK election systems were very similiar, the United Kindom is a constitutional monarchy while the United States is a representative democracy.

His ideas are messed up.

Also his political system was imposed on the area he comes from, while my political systems was selected by the people.
Last I checked, a person voting in Rhode Island was worth about a thousand people voting in California.

Thats not democratic.

"One man, One vote"?
or
"One man from Rohode island, One thousand votes, One man from California, One vote".

Which is democratic?
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 22:44   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bunga
Last I checked, a person voting in Rhode Island was worth about a thousand people voting in California.

Thats not democratic.

"One man, One vote"?
or
"One man from Rohode island, One thousand votes, One man from California, One vote".

Which is democratic?
No system of representative democracy weighs all votes exactly the same. Deal with it.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 22:53   #44
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Hmmm... yes they do.

My country, for example.

Deal with it.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 23:08   #45
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Hmmm... yes they do.

My country, for example.

Deal with it.
And what country would that be?

If one uses fixed geographic election districts, then the population will never be the same in all districts. Proportional representation can reduce the problem, but does not eliminate it--since vote totals are still rounded off to accomodate a small, finite number of elected positions.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 23:15   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
You must have a different memory of the election than I do.
Nope. Anyone voting Democrat would have been guilty of exactly the same charges as anyone voting Republican (in this particular context).

(And before anyone says : "But they were the only two realistic choices" then please see Nod's original post)
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 23:19   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Proportional representation can reduce the problem,
I haven't looked at (or cared about) electoral systems since A-Level Politics at school but doesn't the national list PR system eliminate the varying weights of votes?

Sure, some are still wasted due to the rounding effect, but surely the effect would be (roughly) shared between different factions?
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 23:24   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Texan
You were the one who brought up democracy on this thread. Now you say who cares.

If only the United States were a democracy, the citizens would be able to elect a government that didnt favour war.

Then you go on to ignore the fact that Scottland was conquered by a foreign power and had it's current government thrust upon them by the United Kingdom, a constitutional monarchy
Why would I care about Scotland or the UK? I dont understand why this is any more relevant to the discussion than commenting on the government in Bolivia or Cambodia.
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 23:27   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Heh. War (pro-, anti- or non-) was so not an issue in the 2000 US elections.
What about in the Senate elections a few months ago?
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Unread 20 Jan 2003, 23:52   #50
Tactitus
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Exclamation
Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I haven't looked at (or cared about) electoral systems since A-Level Politics at school but doesn't the national list PR system eliminate the varying weights of votes?
It reduces it; but it does not eliminate it.
Quote:
Sure, some are still wasted due to the rounding effect, but surely the effect would be (roughly) shared between different factions?
Roughly, yes; but in a country the size of the US you're still looking at upwards of several thousand votes "lost" due to rounding for each faction. Sharing that rounding may be "fair" for the large factions, less fair for the smaller factions, and not very fair at all for the factions that fail to qualify for any seats (you can point out that they get screwed under any electorial system but they may not take much comfort in that).
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