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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 15:23   #1
Zaejii
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EMP "Critical Failure"

i just wanted to suggest that maybe a small percentage (5-10%) of EMP'd ships should undergo some sort of systems failure and basically be destroyed (with or without salvage). would quite possibly cut back on the extreme amounts of incomings (and defense vs attacks) cathaar get across the board and that ETD get due to fi/de emp if there was a small risk of losing *some* ships instead of it being win / win for attackers and defenders.

[edit]found two threads that sorta mention this, but they're pretty old.
'Fixing' Cathaar http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...&highlight=emp
EMP Salvage http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...&highlight=emp
(not sure if its better to bump the old ones, or start a new one though)
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Last edited by Zaejii; 6 Aug 2007 at 15:42.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 21:10   #2
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

If you change one (def or attack) I guess it will be logical the other one is changed also, but i dont really think cath attack fleets are that bad.. so killing a small percentage of the emped ships might make it a little bit too good even. On the other hand, there's NO REWARD AT ALL when you selfcover as a cath vs your own incs.. obviously, they'll land it anyway as the worst thing that can happen is they get stunned. You used to get 100 xp for defending your own planet vs landing waves.. but they even removed that little reward. Killing 5-10% of the emped ships would prolly still make most of them land vs emp only def, but then you get at least something in return, so the suggestion gets my vote tbh Will be a lot less frustrating for most cathaar planets. Another thing you have to take into account is the fact that those waves covered by emp ships only, drain a lot more and especially longer ally/gal deffleets. So YES give us cathaar players something in return plz :d
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 05:03   #3
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

i got to agree, cath emp is a great thing.. as it freeze lot of ship, but it s also their greatest weakness, as everyone challenge and defy an emp fleet.
back when i played cath, i remember fleet landing , even for the smallest of gain.. as they knew they d lose nothing.
something must be given to the emp ship that will give something back to the cath getting attacked.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 05:28   #4
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Something that makes EMP kill ships instead of freezing it can't be called a failure...
I think that critical EMP could freeze more than 1 tick, meaning the critically hit ships are left behind (and lost) by the enemy. But in order to get salvage from those undestroyed ships, the Cath should have to build a special construction, or complete a special research.
Or the fleet with critically emped ships could have the option of waiting additional ticks for it's ships to come back. It would be an option to tick at launch.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 08:00   #5
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

No offence guys, and everyone hates user moderating, but this is the sort of thing that could probably be tossed to the sticky with the things that have been discussed over and over again.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 12:26   #6
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

I think the "failure" part has not so much to do with the attacking ships as it has with the defending ships.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 14:24   #7
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

indeed, i think it should effect both. not just one or the other. i also think this is a great idea.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 18:58   #8
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

It's a good idea and 5-10% of the EMPed ships destroyed is a low enough number. Donating resources that way (if you recieve salvage) isn't really worth the time, so I don't expect it to be a problem.
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Unread 23 Aug 2007, 21:36   #9
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Some great ideas put forward, I especially like the idea where a percentage of EMPed ships are potentially left behind as salvage unless the attacker, defender risks some sort of mission option to wait for them.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 18:01   #10
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

the issue isn't really 'salvage'. its land for zero loss and all gain. whether its 5 roids or 0 roids, unless any kill ships are present at all - the attacker will land. my suggestion was to have a small percentage of the attacker's fleet lost (salvage or no salvage) just to deter them from landing against 80% or higher EMP coverage.

i know its a stupid idea, but in the Matrix movies where they would use the EMP devices, the squidly robots wouldn't get up a few hours later and be fully functional. they would be rendered completely worthless. EMP was basically another way to 'kill' without destroying (by going through armor).

i would look at it as more of a resist check / failure than as the actual destruction of the ship. where the attacker loses it, but the defender just gains a paperweight that doesn't give any benefits which-so-ever.

-and- like keiz said, this has been discussed before. which is why i linked those original threads in my OP. most of this has been discussed over and over and has been denied over and over. though it is an issue that needs to be addressed, especially when you look at the vast amounts of incoming cathaar receive compared to other races.
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Unread 24 Aug 2007, 22:42   #11
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

I recall a certain set of stats (they didn't get accepted) that didn't have Cathaar in them, but instead every race had a few emp ships.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 00:31   #12
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

no! dont kill the cathaar race, it s one of the most fun to play.. but the cathaar need to see their emp weapon be assign more respect..

having multiple wave of incoming land for no loss at all is ridiculous..
if emp is suppose to be a defensive weapon, fine, but no normal admiral would send any amount of ship going to be immobilize at sea or space, just to see them return as if nothing happened..

surely a race with emp weapon would board or put mine on those paralyse ennemy ships , so they dont return to hunt them down again a year later..

give emp some respect and a % on kill, even though minimal.. so attacker dont get free lunch.

no other race got incoming for no loss .. if defense is present..
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 00:52   #13
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

If you want to make Cathaar stronger, make their ships more efficient. Cathaar don't need to kill other ships to succeed, as has been repeatedly demonstrated since Round 6.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 01:06   #14
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
indeed, i think it should effect both. not just one or the other. i also think this is a great idea.
You misunderstand. I meant to say that it wouldn't be the Cathaar ships (the attackers) that fail, it would be the (some of the) ships that get stunned (the defenders) that do so, regardless of whether the Cathaar ships in question have "attack" as their mission or not.



Also, furball, you display a remarkable ability to fail to see the issue (I hesistate to use the word "problem") with Cathaar.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 01:28   #15
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

There's a definite issue with Cathaar - that it's a suitable race for top 10 players, scanners and almost no-one else. Balancing it is pretty much impossible. However, I'm not convinced in the slightest that 'critical failure' or any other such plan to introduce 5-10% damage will cure this problem.


Quite simply, Cathaar can dominate the highest ranks, but can still otherwise be close to unplayable due to the amount of incoming they receive. The problem with partial-kill is as Gate put it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
However, this would just make big caths even more terrifying, and small caths still vulnerable to simply being overpowered.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 02:36   #16
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Very true. However, how is "just make them more efficient" going to do anything to improve the situation?
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 03:03   #17
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Very true. However, how is "just make them more efficient" going to do anything to improve the situation?
It's an alternative solution to the proposed problem - an answer to the "extreme amounts of incomings (and defense vs attacks) cathaar get across the board".


By the way, most attackers will accept 5-10% losses anyway
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 03:28   #18
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
no! dont kill the cathaar race, it s one of the most fun to play.. but the cathaar need to see their emp weapon be assign more respect..
If there are a decent set of stats which allow it for a round, why not? Give the race a break for a round to allow something different. I'm sure the Cathaar could be involved in some galactic war which prevents them from joining Planetarion for approximately 2 earth months!

They could be added back in the round after, but it would give everyone something new to deal with.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 16:44   #19
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

it seems a lot of people are missing the point, and no matter how much you explain it - they're still going to post their jibberish w/o reading it.

the idea i'm trying to put forth (i guess) is that in tradition games (dungeons and dragons for instance) you had two ways to kill someone. you could kill them with a weapon which was an attack roll vs armor, or you could kill them with a spell which was raw dmg vs a resist check. granted, in those games you didn't destroy the armor to kill the person, you went through their life bar. the spells (like power word kill and such) were on a resist or die basis. so why not make emp, which is already rolled against a resistance number, a resist or malfunction (some of the time) ability?

the point is that when you attack and see emp defense in the jgp, you let it go and land on it fearing no ship loss which-so-ever. the def either has to emp 100% or any partial coverage will mean losses for the defense. attackers lose nothing and might gain. when you see a jgp and it has a 15% kill possibility, you recall automatically. in the first example, the fleet is tied up for the entire attack wave. in the second, it isn't. as we've already discussed, it takes more (volume) of ships to cover 100% than partial kill covers. yes, people will probably still land and not care about 5-10% losses. yes, cathaar emp is very efficient already. yes, its hard to attack huge cathaar late in the game. but, cathaar don't get huge w/o LOTS of help, and even when they are big, they still get lots of incoming. (ask Satyr and Benneh about last round).

with the stats that i've seen for this round, this is really going to be an issue. most races play games of chicken vs other races, but can attack cathaar without fear of losing anything with fi, fr, cr, and de because of emp based defense. the same holds true for etd against fi and de. when any ships get through (even against 90% emp) the losses for the defenders are so ridiculous its either an all covered or full loss and run the fleet scenario.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 17:06   #20
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Zaejii, did you read my two posts?

There are two main problems: one is a general problem with Cathaar, the other is a problem with your suggestion.

1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Cathaar can dominate the highest ranks, but can still otherwise be close to unplayable due to the amount of incoming they receive.
2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
However, this would just make big caths even more terrifying, and small caths still vulnerable to simply being overpowered.
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Unread 26 Aug 2007, 17:09   #21
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Zaejii, no offence, but the suggestion you made in the OP is completely different from the one in your last post (or at least came across that way).
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Unread 27 Aug 2007, 22:55   #22
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

its not completely different. the OP states an idea, the last post states why/how that idea could be implemented.

the "general" problem is that which is being addressed. the only way cathaar ever reach 'higher' ranks is by being in very strong buddy packs or by getting tons of ally def early (which most players never experience - myself included). its the general idea that since cats can get roids so easily at the start of a round, they shouldn't be defended early as well - which leads to even more incomings.

the 'big caths are terrifying' is irrelevant. the change i'm suggesting is for defending fleets only. meaning that no matter how big and 'terrifying' your fleet is, there is still a maximum amount of ships attacking at any given time, and a max of 5-10% of those ships dying (and giving no salvage or w/e). how could that make anything more 'terrifying'? a zik or etd that farms (and has been apparent in the last few rounds) is more 'terrifying' than a cathaar due to the kill/steal factor as opposed to emp.
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Unread 28 Aug 2007, 01:04   #23
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

i like the idea in general
cath get heavy incommings due to the "they can't kill anyway so why fear them"

the "kill" some of the frozen ship idea is good to reduce the amount of attacks
it has been suggested that the emp efficientcy could be increased to get the same effect but then caths would be overpowered when teaming up (some would say that this is already the case)

this "kill" some of the frozen ships idea won't have such an effect on teamups but i think it would be overpowered in attack fleets. Cath attack fleets are (and have to be) designed to freeze everything that could harm them. if they even kill those ships....

if it is an def only feature i would love to see it implemented
I'm not sure about the correct percentage as this is dependend on the shipstats (and vice versa)

if someone wants to have an explanation to this:
some of the frozen ships are hit that hard by emp that computers on the ship got a short circuit and all navigation data is lost. If this ship is in the orbit of a friendly planet, this planet could help the ship to navigate when the "damage" is repaired. A Hostile planet won't do that so the ship won't find it's way home and the ship is lost.
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 09:17   #24
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Or, in case that 100% attackers are stunned (and only then) make scorps target "all". They shouldnt have problems hitting fast things then, since theyre just floating around.
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 10:38   #25
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

With the current top 10 consisting of 8 Cathaars and Cathaars usually being a very strong race if its a good player playing it, I dont see how this is a good suggestion.
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 10:43   #26
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Current stats shouldn't influence dicisions about additional features.
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Unread 20 Sep 2007, 19:12   #27
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

What Mz said.


(which doesn't stop it from being a bad idea, as I said earlier)
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Unread 25 Sep 2007, 06:45   #28
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

cathaar need to see their emp ships respected.. there s no other race , and i repeat, no other race, that get an attack land for no loss at all when defense is present, except cathaar.

that said, i agree that any race should not be overpowered.. it s bad for the game, it bad for strategy, it s bad overall..

but emp ships must have some utiltily.. as is.. emp ship is an all or nothing.. and that s bad for a race like the cathaar.. who need them to survive!
when a fleet od terran bs can land and sometime (ref to previous round) kill the opposing emp ships.. it s obvious that emp ship need to be rethink.

the idea behind allowing the 5-10% kill is not to overpower the cathaar.. but to make landing vs emp ships something not free.. which implies salvage.

how many time (countless times) did i see fleets land vs an emp def.. get away with 10 roids or less.. and not lose a single ship, while any other landing where an attack getting 10 roids would simply be recalled !!

give the emp ship some respect and give them a kill/disabling % so the attacker dont get a free lunch..
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Unread 18 Oct 2007, 16:26   #29
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

if you make the emp ships kill though you would also need to address the strength of them...
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Unread 18 Oct 2007, 16:56   #30
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
cathaar need to see their emp ships respected.. there s no other race , and i repeat, no other race, that get an attack land for no loss at all when defense is present, except cathaar.
there is etd with anti fi/de, and I repeat, there is etd!
even tho they werent present this r, should they get "crit hits" as well?
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Unread 22 Oct 2007, 10:36   #31
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

could just make emp'd ships return time slower like +3 ticks or something.. making it easier for caths to retal or set up fc's. Would also balls up a lot of peoples attack plans if they are with an ally but meh .. all very confusing
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 00:51   #32
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

it dont have to be a critical failure (tho the same result) but the ships just crash. i mean they are fighting neer lots of big rocks and a planet so they get hit wile going really fast, then cant get their systems online again so cant stop, they go splat into things.
it would need a weakening of the power of them tho as with going 1st and having a large stopping power for their cost to kill as well would put them over the top
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Unread 25 Oct 2007, 10:38   #33
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Either way it's just going to make Caths overpowered.
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 15:37   #34
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
how many time (countless times) did i see fleets land vs an emp def.. get away with 10 roids or less.. and not lose a single ship, while any other landing where an attack getting 10 roids would simply be recalled !!

give the emp ship some respect and give them a kill/disabling % so the attacker dont get a free lunch..
^^
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Unread 3 Nov 2007, 19:48   #35
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

That's the price you pay for shooting first and most effectively (maybe)
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Unread 5 Nov 2007, 08:36   #36
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

The only way to implement this in any sort of way that wouldnt make caths overpowered would be to lower their efficiency and raise their initiative.

This, to me, would really take away from the reasons to play cath, if not done though in conjunction with this kill ratio, it would result in a universe with a huge majority of caths and would make things exceedingly dull.

If anything like this were implemented, I would suggest it only being available on defence ships, and to alter them in the ways mentioned before, otherwise they would be far too strong.
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Unread 7 Nov 2007, 02:24   #37
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubert Samson
The only way to implement this in any sort of way that wouldnt make caths overpowered would be to lower their efficiency and raise their initiative.

This, to me, would really take away from the reasons to play cath, if not done though in conjunction with this kill ratio, it would result in a universe with a huge majority of caths and would make things exceedingly dull.

If anything like this were implemented, I would suggest it only being available on defence ships, and to alter them in the ways mentioned before, otherwise they would be far too strong.

of course, we, caths, dont want to be overpowered.. it would indeed lead to a boring game.. but would a zik land his attack fleet for 10 roids and get 95% destroyed? no.. would terran do so? no.. but everyone defies emp cath ships, as there s no loss! all we want is a way to make emp ship to be respected.

giving a kill/disabling % will give some bite back to those ships.
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Unread 7 Nov 2007, 03:07   #38
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Up until last round, I have played cath, so I do know exactly where you are coming from, and on the one hand I agree, but on the other, I still think that the changes needed to implement this would take away from the whole reason to be cathaar.
Even if cathaar players dont want cath to be overpowered, this would be the thing to do it.
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Unread 7 Nov 2007, 19:18   #39
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Cath's are supposed to be overpowered. Thats the only way to make it work really.
Even tho your overpowered , everyone will still trow whatever they got at you and hope it goes well. Since they wount lose crap if they dont get roids.
Cath's should be like 50-75% stronger than the other races
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Unread 8 Nov 2007, 00:29   #40
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
Cath's are supposed to be overpowered. Thats the only way to make it work really.
Even tho your overpowered , everyone will still trow whatever they got at you and hope it goes well. Since they wount lose crap if they dont get roids.
Cath's should be like 50-75% stronger than the other races
As it stands, yes, cathaar need to have the more efficient ships just because their ships dont kill, but adding a ratio of destroyed ships to their efficiency would just make them powerful beyond belief.
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Unread 10 Nov 2007, 07:14   #41
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Re: EMP "Critical Failure"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubert Samson
As it stands, yes, cathaar need to have the more efficient ships just because their ships dont kill, but adding a ratio of destroyed ships to their efficiency would just make them powerful beyond belief.

thing is, cath emp ship is the main weapon of the race, as they usually get 1-2 kill ships. many opponent dont give a damn about how many thousand of this cath get.. as they usually overpower the emp very easily.

in fact peoples dont mind if 90% of their ships get emp, as they re not destroyed.. and still get away with roids..

as i said, a zik landing on a terran and having 90% of his fleet shoot at would recall , but when it comes to cathaar.. no one give a damn, unless they get reinforment for the other races.. only the cathaar are so awfully dependant on others..

terran, zik or even etd can kill their incoming if they got enough ships in their fleet or production..

but cathaar cant claim that, as it s all emp.. and emp dont kill..

hence the request to see the emp do get a kill ratio.. so at least , the player using cath as favorite race dont get a painted target for free ship or roids.

probably putting the kill ratio in a side program that would be applied only on defense could be a viable idea.. so attacking would not be so ''scary" to those getting attacked by cath.. even though losing 5-10% is not that bad for a succesful defense! agreed 0% loss is better.. but in a fight, terran would be glad to lose so little in defense if it meant killing 90%+ of the attacker ships!

beside with emp resistance now being as high as 99% and a majority at 95% for terran ships.. cathaar just become a free target.
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