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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:34   #601
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gimmick
If there roid gains were impressive they certainly werent targetting ND.
Neither 1up for that matter then
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:37   #602
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
Since we've seen ND defend DLR planets, thats not the same as inviting you into our private room for a laugh when we were allies. There was nothing ingame related about it.

Next.
Dear Zhil, im sure we could keep going at this all day, but i see no point in that..

So i took the liberty to quote Assassin from the guidelines/rules of r16 thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin
We will allow planets to defend friends from time to time but it has to be obvious you're also playing for yourself (as opposed to playing purely to support others).
As im sure you see, it states that aslong as you play for yourself you should be fine.. What i fail to see is how DLR isnt playing for themself, they have a high score, most of them are t100, they attack targets that will get them high score and so on, but i still fail to see where they play for ND.

If it was Subh or Angels doing what DLR did, it was perfectly ok..

But here comes the hatch, Assassin (the head of MH team), says that DLR isnt an alliance, how would he know? Who decides what is an alliance and what is not? Since when wasnt it enough to be tagged up ingame?

It seems to me that MH's (Assassin), is trying to dictate politics in planetarion, which imo he has no rights to do..

I must admit, i never had much fate in the MH team, not that i dont trust them to catch cheaters, its just that they interpret the rules like _THEY_ want to, which is pure shit imo..

Dunno if i really made a point here, but i think im saying, by the thread Assassin made, DLR cant be seen as support planets, hence Assassin is interpreting the rules so DLR isnt an alliance...
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:38   #603
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Lokken, I don't know if you realise, but as this thread has gone on you seem to have gone more and more pro-ND. It's a little biased for a mod

Just a little observation from reading most of the thread.

And this whole discussion is a little silly. DLR and ND haven't merged, and have also stated that they will not merge (from HC - I can't be bothered to find the post though). So why continue talking about it?
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:40   #604
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

First of all, DLR and ND haven't merged yet, so this discussion is hypothetical and not worth getting angry over. I remain doubtful that it will happen.

However, I disagree with the generally whiny attitude that "anyone who beats my alliance must have cheated". It's bullshit. And I'm not directing that comment at anyone in particular, but at the whole AD moral majority brigade.

I first encountered this in round 4, when Xanadu's victory (#1 planet, #1 galaxy, leading alliance in the winning block) was decried because they were "using bots". Does anyone remember Cryptic's constant "XANADU. BOTS. CHEATING" rants? Admittedly, he was probably only doing it to get a response from Scorpio and Silversmoke, but that's not the point. The point is that in every subsequent round, the losers have attempted to claim that the winners got their victory by a) cheating, b) over-blocking, c) fence-sitting, d) recruiting or some other reason which implies that they didn't 'deserve' the victory.

If eXilition win, they're said to be using bots and support planets. If 1up win, it's because of planet NAPs or recruitment (did absorbing pr0nstars and taking the #1 spot in r12 count as a merge? I don't remember what people thought at the time because I didn't play). Whoever wins, there will be a whole chorus of whiny ****s from the other side trying to claim that the winners used immoral methods to get their victory. Perhaps I just shouldn't take it so seriously, but it does annoy me.

The objective of the game is to finish #1. If someone else thought of a better way of doing it than you, then they're the winners. You might not like it, you might think that your alliance worked harder, played a better game or whatever, but there's no prizes for finishing second.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:41   #605
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
When you've got some justification for it being a loophole instead of throwing your toys out the pram, you might get somewhere.
No need to get personal dear moderator

It's quite obvious we are going to continue to disagree regarding ND's defense of DLR planets. I view it as a supportive measure against the support planet rules - if it continues to be done that is. It's a grey area for sure.

We may be too speculative in DLR's future plans, but if they indeed do join ND - then it'd only show the intent to circumvent alliance limits was correct.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:41   #606
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
But here comes the hatch, Assassin (the head of MH team), says that DLR isnt an alliance, how would he know? Who decides what is an alliance and what is not? Since when wasnt it enough to be tagged up ingame?

It seems to me that MH's (Assassin), is trying to dictate politics in planetarion, which imo he has no rights to do..
The fact they run the game gives them the right to dictate what goes on in it. If you dont like it - tough

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
I must admit, i never had much fate in the MH team, not that i dont trust them to catch cheaters, its just that they interpret the rules like _THEY_ want to, which is pure shit imo..
As opposed to interpreting them the ways which benefit you?
Dont forget everyone will have a differing opinion on how to interpret rules - just their opinions dont matter. its what the admins interpret them as which counts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
Dunno if i really made a point here, but i think im saying, by the thread Assassin made, DLR cant be seen as support planets, hence Assassin is interpreting the rules so DLR isnt an alliance...
if there was one to begin with, it was lost in the attempt to whine about assassin.
Leave the interpreting of rules to those who are eminately more qualified to do so
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:47   #607
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by El-CuRa
No. So don't.
I don't bother defeating WORTHLESS comments all the time. (this one is the exception that confirms the rule)

edit:
added some STYLE on request of Phil^.
It was to emphasize my point - leading up to my inevitable comment to indeed, counter it. Build-up.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 13:48   #608
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Lokken, I don't know if you realise, but as this thread has gone on you seem to have gone more and more pro-ND. It's a little biased for a mod

Just a little observation from reading most of the thread.

And this whole discussion is a little silly. DLR and ND haven't merged, and have also stated that they will not merge (from HC - I can't be bothered to find the post though). So why continue talking about it?
Page 10 is pretty crap for ND in my opinion. Why they posted I don't know. It's pretty silly, because really they shouldn't feel the need to defend anything. Have I deleted it? No.

I'm just stating my opinion on things. If it happens to be pro ND, well it's like that and that's the way it is - my view is that if anyone wants a chance, they should focus on taking 1up. Myself and mazzelaar had an interesting discussion, and I can't say either of us are particularly disappointed with it. As for my view on the recruitment issue, there is a thread from the end of round 10 that probably won't disappoint you, from memory - it is a view i've harboured in ages, from a time before I even thought ND was a realistic option (let alone playing pa again) for me.

My guess of the support planets rule I felt was pretty much fair, and it offers no guarantee whatsoever that DLR would/wouldn't get deleted.

I've been under pressure from all sides to moderate in their favour today, and quite frankly I can do without the badgering, as it's not going to get anyone very far.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:09   #609
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
MOD stuff.....
For what it's worth I don't believe you are being biased in terms of modding. I have always been able to distinguish your two personas. However, when posting personally I do think you are guilty of sometimes being deliberately obtuse and playing devils advocate for the sake of it as Rob can sometimes do/be. But then thats just an opinion too
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:13   #610
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

DLR not seen as an alliance?

ROFL, wtf? Is that a joke or did SteInMetz just misunderstand the MHs?

Whatever they think they are, aslong as they are ranked on the alliance section ingame and reap the benifit of ingame alliance defence, then they are by default an alliance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
The fact they run the game gives them the right to dictate what goes on in it. If you dont like it - tough
I thought they were there to provide a service to the PA gaming community, helping the game stay on its feet on behalf of us paying customers? (yeah i know, free round but whatever :P)

Anyway, there are so many issues with PA that are not clear and have extensive debates supporting different views. Imo, this kind of sh1t with DLR isn't one of them, as it seems common sense to consider them an alliance?


Apologies if this has been discussed 3 pages ago, ive only kept up with this long thread through skim reading;P
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:17   #611
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
I thought they were there to provide a service to the PA gaming community, helping the game stay on its feet on behalf of us paying customers? (yeah i know, free round but whatever :P)
They are . they are still allowed to dictate what goes on in the game they operate though. its their right (and duty perhaps) as a result of their position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
Apologies if this has been discussed 3 pages ago, ive only kept up with this long thread through skim reading;P
yeah the threads going on for a bit isnt it
wonder if its anywhere close to being the longest thread yet? 13 pages ( and counting ) sure is a lot.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:33   #612
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
DLR not seen as an alliance?

ROFL, wtf? Is that a joke or did SteInMetz just misunderstand the MHs?

Whatever they think they are, aslong as they are ranked on the alliance section ingame and reap the benifit of ingame alliance defence, then they are by default an alliance.
I will just fill in some info. to prove that SteInMetz didn't misunderstand the MH.

Quote:
<Assassin> you would call 15 members that are bassicaly there to support ND as a flack alliance playing for themselves?
<Assassin> but i dont see that 15 members in a tag as an alliance i am afraid
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:35   #613
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
I will just fill in some info. to prove that SteInMetz didn't misunderstand the MH.
Quote:
<Assassin> you would call 15 members that are bassicaly there to support ND as a flack alliance playing for themselves?
<Assassin> but i dont see that 15 members in a tag as an alliance i am afraid
What. The. ****.

Can we get a PAteam confirmation on this little snippet of idiocy?
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:35   #614
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

God will this ever stop?

I do hope when next round comes this kind of bicering wont happend cuz it ruines the game.

There are good points and bad points, twist and turns. People putting words in eachothers mouth. Propeganda and other shit.

And i want my green dot back, oh well. We cant get everything we want now, can we? Cuz every1 have diffrent views and opinions.

If the PA Team could come with a clear statement on the mathers then maybe we can end this discussion?!

Edit: aww, you said it before me, Banned! But it looks like by the quote you made its all cleard up...? Stfu up about DLR ya`ll
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:38   #615
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
Ive been in #private more than once, does this mean i and 1up was cheating?
Sid's played in 1:1 more than once, does this mean that 1up was cheating?
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:40   #616
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
<Assassin> i just dont want them getting involved with your pollitics
Another snip from our convo. He even dictate what politics ND should follow. Or DLR.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:43   #617
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

post the whole thing and not selected quotes. Its very easy to selectively quote things out of context
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:47   #618
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

I am not allowed to post long logs. And I dont think everyone should read it.

But That was basically what our 16000char long convo was about.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 14:50   #619
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Re: Angels/NewDawn


Upload it to a website and then post the link to it. -besides i seriously doubt you would get banned by lokken for it since its relevent to the conversation here
(either that or assassin can do it since it is, after all his reputation you are attacking - and if it shows you are deliberately misquoting parts for political advantage then you might want to start running from the AD hordes who will probably tear you apart for it)

Unless you are prepared to do so, to back up your accusations then you really shouldnt have bothered to post snippets of it, out of their context.

To do so, is slander
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:04   #620
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Let's see the log, and we'll judge when we see it. You've staked your entire position on this log with Assassin, if we don't see a reasonable chunk of it then there is no point in you continuing to post.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:19   #621
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

We have decided to upload the log.

It is to find at http://www.fragleberget.com/assasinlog.txt

The spots who is marked * - are nicks and how many times incidents have happend.
So therefor removed

log file update. Didn't remove so much this time.

-edit-
And if you read the log I think I tried 3 times to get proofs for the incidents. But never got them.
Got blown of or just ignored.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:24   #622
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by log
[01/03-06:23:40:10] <Assassin> to me atm i see 15 members, who were all ND once before, sharing your channels, retalling on people who attack you and they attack targets you hit. To me this looks like you have bassicaly got 15 guys you couldnt fit in tag, put them into a tag and there supporting you
this one line sums his position and opinion up beyond any possible confusion. It looks like, to me, that things were indeed selectively misquoted in order to gain a political advantage.

He is letting you know as a courtesy, that to him its unacceptable. ( which is the right thing to do rather then go in all guns blazing and close a lot of people ), hes even given you specific instances of occasions its happened on so clearly he has looked into you both thoroughly
Quote:
Originally Posted by log
[02/03-06:00:26:13] <Assassin> im not claiming subh is ok
[02/03-06:00:26:22] <[ND]Spritfire> "We will allow planets to defend friends from time to time but it has to be obvious you're also playing for yourself "
[02/03-06:00:26:40] <Assassin> which is why i am pming you
* 5 lines removed
[02/03-06:00:27:50] <[ND]Spritfire> dlr defending ND or ND defending DLR ?
[02/03-06:00:27:59] <Assassin> if this isnt a regular occurence and as troll claims there isnt any interaction then fine.
[02/03-06:00:28:02] <Assassin> dlr defending nd
[02/03-06:00:28:11] <Assassin> but if there is
[02/03-06:00:28:13] <Assassin> as i said
[02/03-06:00:28:23] <Assassin> ill be forced to do somthing, if not then its all fine
hes letting you know precisely what is, and is not acceptable there
Quote:
Originally Posted by log
[02/03-06:00:34:53] <Assassin> troll seems fine with it
[02/03-06:00:34:58] <Assassin> seems to be sorted
[02/03-06:00:35:07] <[ND]Spritfire> I want proofs if you claims it
[02/03-06:00:35:12] <Assassin> and i hope you understand i have to follow up on issues btw
[02/03-06:00:35:25] <Assassin> but btw
[02/03-06:00:35:32] <[ND]Spritfire> I understand, but I also suggest that you dont listen so much to the 1up propaganda machine
[02/03-06:00:35:38] <Assassin> lol
[02/03-06:00:35:43] <Assassin> it actually wasnt from 1up
hes also letting you know why hes following up on it and speaking with you there, and from that it looks like you understand why he has to


seriously, this whole things been overhyped and misquoted for political ends
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:31   #623
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
[01/03-06:23:46:56] <[ND]Spritfire> you are basically saying that blocking are not allowed
[01/03-06:23:47:03] <[ND]Spritfire> when you have a block you allways retall others attackers
[01/03-06:23:47:07] <[ND]Spritfire> that is wide known
[01/03-06:23:47:26] <Assassin> a group of ex members of your alliance which are only 15 members and sharing your channels isnt a block
[01/03-06:23:47:37] <Assassin> if you attack with angels and subh fine
[01/03-06:23:47:39] <Assassin> thats a block
[01/03-06:23:47:40] <Assassin> this isnt
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:33   #624
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

You all are misinformed, including Assassin, they aint sharing our channels.. I dont see 15 dlr in our channels, never seen, never will be seen if they arent playing under our tag.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:38   #625
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Good intension Sprit but AD simpily doesn't care

1up knows exactly what DLR is because they have 3 ex members in there alliance who will adamantly say that in no way does ND dicate anything to DLR.

Personally I think ND should be deleted I think they are supporting DLR.

On a side not I did launch my first defense fleet this round and it was IN GAL.

I think this thread will carry on for so much longer than it should now. The people who need to know anything about whats going on have PM'd me including 1up. From there point of view I believe it is all cleared up, there for a I see no point in continuing this conversation if it can even be called that.

Good day gentlemen
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:39   #626
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
So who is ascendancy targetting? Doesn't look like they are targetting 1up, and their roid gain today was impressive.
On a side note, looks like ND military has started to lose control of their firepower.
Ascendancy are targetting any planet in the universe not in their tag. Only thing important to us is

Does the target have roids ? If yes, Will the target yield satisfactory XP.

If yes to this, book it.

Noone cares about checking alliance, because basically. Out of tag = Free to hit.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:49   #627
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

There's only 1issue in that whole log that needs to be adressed, and only 1 post we will make considering it.
He says DLR isn't an alliance. They have an ingame tag, a seperate command structure, seperate channels, seperate policy, they recruit seperatly (& strictly), etc..
This means they are infact an alliance, and nobody can deny that. So this issue doesn't exist.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:50   #628
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

I will verify that to my knowledge....Grog, Troll, Shooter and company don't take marching orders from ND HC, and never have. When I was ND HC, we discussed options and proceded accordingly (keep in mind, at the time DLR's players were under the ND tag, allthough there were always a few players from other alliances)

as for the log..... I see where assasin is going with it. and I do believe he spelled it out clearly enough so that all can understand. That's just how it's gonna be...so work with it. DLR is a bunch of players who wanted a more relaxed round. They wanted to attack at will, and not be burdened by alliance requirements...that's fine, more power to them... If they are defending ND planets, and the reverse, then per assasin's comments, it ain't gonna fly, very simply.

I've always known Grog, Troll, and Shooter to be stand up guys (not sure what Shooteris up to) So I'm fairly sure they aren't trying to blow smoke up anyone's ass....

In the log Assasin stated he was talking to troll, and everyone was on the same page....seems like it's understood and it's time to move on...
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:50   #629
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
You all are misinformed, including Assassin, they aint sharing our channels.. I dont see 15 dlr in our channels, never seen, never will be seen if they arent playing under our tag.
read through this thread from about page two onwards, im pretty sure there was one of your hc saying something along the lines of "yes they're there but we dont do their def calls" or something similar to it.
i dont have the time to find it for you, gotta go to uni now but its there somewhere
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:52   #630
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

So, if angels decided to have a joint channel with ND for retals, we would be support too?
DLR defending ND and viceversa repeatedly is an offense against the rule.
DLR retalling NDs attackers and viceversa is just game mechanics, Live with it.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:53   #631
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

sprit, if i recall correctly dlr always said they were a BG and they wouldn't get defence, so what's the big problem? also it's not YOUR alliance which needs the defence is it? so once again it's dlr's problem, yet you've got a problem with it? seems to me DLR is more important to you then ND itself is... and still not working together?

steinmetz after the pure fact that many people in ND and in places of importance in ND AND DLR have already said dlr people are in ND private chans it's a bit silly to try and say they aint again heh

Don't see anything wrong with assassin's conversation tbh, as said there aswell, exi wasn't allowed to do it, so why would ND be?

also nice of you to fully clear assassins name after you handily quoted certain pieces of the PM so far to discredit him heh
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:56   #632
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

I would like to ask Phil^ and cypher to read my last post again..
You guys are again putting words in my mouth..
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 15:57   #633
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
So, if angels decided to have a joint channel with ND for retals, we would be support too?
DLR defending ND and viceversa repeatedly is an offense against the rule.
DLR retalling NDs attackers and viceversa is just game mechanics, Live with it.
actually, retals vs attackers, and fleet catches (allthough I think not so much where fleet catches are concerned, as they are generally targets of opportunity) would also apply to the rule, as retals vs attackers is a mode of defense, or atleast provides a deterrant to the attacker landing
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:02   #634
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteInMetz
I would like to ask Phil^ and cypher to read my last post again..
You guys are again putting words in my mouth..
What you actually said was "there aren't 15 DLR players in our channel"

Ergo there may be 14

Your post deserved all it got.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:05   #635
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spritfire
*log*
Lol im soory but i agree with everything that assassin said. Also it seems that theres alot more interaction going on that i thought. Good to see that MH finally put thier foot down on this support wing senario.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:07   #636
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
So, if angels decided to have a joint channel with ND for retals, we would be support too?
DLR defending ND and viceversa repeatedly is an offense against the rule.
DLR retalling NDs attackers and viceversa is just game mechanics, Live with it.
If you read the log fully you will see that your case would be fine cause this would be counted as a block. ND + 15man tag isnt a block therefore its support to defend/retal.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:11   #637
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
[01/03-06:23:53:58] <Assassin> thats the difference between alliance flak and support flak, They share your channels, see your attackers, they retal them and defend you. Thats support planets but in a tag
[01/03-06:23:54:06] <Assassin> i actually have a DLR member admitting it
[01/03-06:23:54:28] <[ND]Spritfire> I sit in every ND channel that is
[01/03-06:23:54:38] <[ND]Spritfire> our def channel dont have ANY DLR member in it
[01/03-06:23:54:46] <[ND]Spritfire> thats where our incs is being reported
[01/03-06:23:54:51] <[ND]Spritfire> they have no way of seing it if they are not in there
[01/03-06:23:55:06] <Assassin> may i ask how they retal your attackers if you dont give them any info and there not in your channels?
That sums up the situation pretty well, doesn't it? Clearly, Assassin does not know the relationship between ND and DLR well enough to judge either as a support for the other. It's an issue that doesn't exist. I'm not quite sure that the MH team knows what their definition of alliance is.

The support planet rule had room for defending friends, and that's what happened once, as far as I know. It isn't a repeated offense by any of the planets doing it, is it? And repeated offense was the reasons why planets were being kept open even though they defended out of tag last round.

I find it a bit silly that the staff are dictating DLR's politics.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:17   #638
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
If you read the log fully you will see that your case would be fine cause this would be counted as a block. ND + 15man tag isnt a block therefore its support to defend/retal.
So a 15 man alliance can not block with another alliance? Why? What does the size of an alliance have to do with it?
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:21   #639
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
So a 15 man alliance can not block with another alliance? Why? What does the size of an alliance have to do with it?
Depends if you count them as an allaince or a BG - the cooperation with ND seems to indicate BG. EXilition got ripped to shreds for thier handfull of "support planets" now its fine to have them...as long as they are tagged \o/
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:24   #640
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Thats the thing chipz no alliance are fans of exilition but im sure we are all mature enough to realise that this game cant act on one rule for exilition and one rule for new dawn.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:25   #641
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
actually, retals vs attackers, and fleet catches (allthough I think not so much where fleet catches are concerned, as they are generally targets of opportunity) would also apply to the rule, as retals vs attackers is a mode of defense, or atleast provides a deterrant to the attacker landing
No they would not apply to the rule.
The rule is explicit about Defence, and to try and make counters / retals / fleetcatches part of that rule would be just silly (in my opinion). Why not just eliminate any form of cooperation between alliances then?
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:31   #642
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
Depends if you count them as an allaince or a BG - the cooperation with ND seems to indicate BG. EXilition got ripped to shreds for thier handfull of "support planets" now its fine to have them...as long as they are tagged \o/
No, the rule was put in place because those planet were mostly just defence for eX. Whether DLR is a bg or an alliance is irrelevant. I just find it stupid that someone tires to dictate that an alliance can block with another, but a bg can't. And what does it matter if DLR and ND share one joint channel, or 10 for that matter, as long as they don't defend each other constantly. If they use the channel to chat or arrange retals / counters / fleetcatches, i don't see any rules being broken.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:31   #643
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChipZ^
Depends if you count them as an allaince or a BG - the cooperation with ND seems to indicate BG. EXilition got ripped to shreds for thier handfull of "support planets" now its fine to have them...as long as they are tagged \o/
The 3 defense fleets sent from DLR to ND as according to that log? Wich he didn't even care to share with the people he warned about the breach. No, I don't think it is anything the same.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:34   #644
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
The 3 defense fleets sent from DLR to ND as according to that log? Wich he didn't even care to share with the people he warned about the breach. No, I don't think it is anything the same.
I know it makes no difference, but wsn't it ND defending DLR?
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:43   #645
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Newdawn/DLR

As this post doesn't reflect on 1up's strategy the content are my personal views - not necessarily views showed by all 1up HC.

DLR - Support planets?
----------------------

My understanding of what defines a support planet in general is that it's a planet that doesn't play for itself. When dealing with planets in an alliance that principle would logically extend to a planet that plays for an alliance other than the one whose tag it belongs to.

I do NOT believe that DLR are a support alliance alliance for ND.
I DO, however, believe that Gate's planet specifically may have been playing as an "out of tag" member of ND. I base this on him attacking targets set by ND rather than by DLR (including at least one joint attack with ND members - not a piggyback as solo neither him or the NDs would have got past target's own ships). And on him then receiving defence from ND but not from DLR when fleet-caught in direct response to him attacking with (and on behalf of) ND. I conclude that he attacked with ND not DLR due to the targets he hit being in the ND target list for a night but NOT in the DLR target list (both of which I have seen) - and due to on one occasion that I know about for sure his wave on a planet being booked within ND and him being the only attacker to show up for that landing tick.

I do NOT believe that was he was doing was part of some formal agreement between DLR/ND - which is precisely why the situation is different to two cooperating alliances.

If a planet in one alliance attacks with a different alliance with whom their own alliance has no attack cooperation, and does so on a regular basis, then it hard to see how that planet can be defined as anything other than a support planet. When that planet also receives defence from the alliance they aren't a member of then that becomes even more clear.

Where I, however, see a problem in this is in who to punish - if indeed the MH determine that an offence has been committed. Punishing the defenders seems rather strange - as they may not know they're defending a support planet: for all they know it could be someone out of tag in their 72 tick waiting period who it is entirely valid to defend. Similarly you can't punish a planet for receiving out of alliance defence - as how do you know they requested it? It would be ludicrous to reach a situation where you could get a planet in another alliance closed just by getting someone else to atatck it then sending it defence.

My personal view is that planets IN a tag should not be allowed to receive defence from other planets other than those in their tag, their galaxy and their cluster. Planets NOT in a tag should be able to receive defence from anyone. This would remove all the ambiguity, reduce the whining and ease the load on MHs. Cooperating alliances could then help on fleet-ctaches - but with in-cluster def only.

DLR/ND merging
---------------

I don't believe this will happen - and I'm sure DLR HC gain plenty of amusement from those who think it will. I wouldn't be surprised to see a couple of DLR's join ND later though.

Any win achieved within the rules is a win. Some may be more "deserving" than others - but as the losers will always find something to whine about that's not going to change anyone's decisions all that much.

I DO see a difference between mid-round recruitment to replace losses and a last minute mass addition to improve rank. The biggest difference, to me, is if you kick members out of your tag that you otherwise wouldn't to allow in higher score planets. The ones who kick from tag - even if they remain in your channels - are NOT in the winning alliance more. So people who have fought all round for you are now rewarded by NOT having won the round.

I also see a difference between recruitment to gain the member - and recruitment to gain the score. But I accept that the difference is fine, the distinction hard to define and that there's no practical way of defining clearly when a recruitment is one, the other or both.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:43   #646
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

mazzelaar if you read the log. I asked twice for him to check that.
But I think its ND defending DLR to even tho it dosn't mather
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:44   #647
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

I really don't see the big problem.

Assassin has spoken to Troll and Sprit.

They now know where they stand, and have been given a "verbal" warning. They know that to defend each other more than once or twice will be viewed as support, and will result in "action" (which, I assume, is closures/suspension).

So they've been warned, and the situation has been clarified.

They aren't stupid.

I assume that now they know their position (from their convo with Assassin), any cooperation will be decreased to an almost non-existent level, and they'll play separately.
I also assume that they won't be merging or anything either, as that would also break the rules (from my understanding? might be wrong).


So why are people still being hostile? Assassin has sorted it out and clarified the situation, so there shouldn't be a problem anymore.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:45   #648
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by mazzelaar
I know it makes no difference, but wsn't it ND defending DLR?
Quote:
[02/03-06:00:27:50] <[ND]Spritfire> dlr defending ND or ND defending DLR ?
[02/03-06:00:27:59] <Assassin> if this isnt a regular occurence and as troll claims there isnt any interaction then fine.
[02/03-06:00:28:02] <Assassin> dlr defending nd
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:49   #649
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Whether DLR is a bg or an alliance is irrelevant. I just find it stupid that someone tires to dictate that an alliance can block with another, but a bg can't.
I just posted on this topic. To clarify MY view on this, alliances CAN block (and I define DLR as an alliance - as by every reasonable interpretation of what a PA alliance is DLR qualifies). The restrictions aren't on what alliances can do - they're on what planets can do. In the specific case being discussed all the HC involved (DLR/ND) agree that the two AREN'T blocked - which is precisely why the issue of individual planets being support planets becomes relevant. If DLR/ND WERE blocked then it is obvious that you'd expect cooperation between them. But if they AREN'T (and shouldn't we take their word for that?) then a member of one who acts mainly as though he were a member of the other IS, by any reasonable definition, an out of tag member of one alliance (a support planet) - rather than a "proper" member of the alliance whose tag he uses for convenience.
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Unread 2 Mar 2006, 16:54   #650
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Re: Angels/NewDawn

tbh i think under the current definition of what a block is any interaction between DLR and ND is above board.

They shared def, they shared hits.

It would be more pertinent to know who they were defending against or targetting in their attacks.

I do think that Assassin made a bit of a booboo with his logic describing DLR as ex nd members and thus must be support planets of ND.

Everyone at one time or another has been on gal raid where another alliance has chosen that target with similar landing ticks. It is also possible that you were an ex member of the other alliance landing with you. Does that make you a support planet automatically?

tsm
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