1up's not-ingame members

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Willzzz

He bassicaly means if PA Team knew of it but did nothing then you cant really say people 'exploited it' as they didnt do anything to stop it although they knew of it. About sums it up JBG?

Exactamundo.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Treveler

The donation "feature" will be fixed for next round. I actually got off my fat ass (as a manner of speaking) and contacted the PA crew about it. It is a legal feature this round, but someone smart came up with an easy solution to the problem so next round the bash limit will apply to resources stockers too.

It is however a bit amusing if it is as easy to fix as Sid is suggesting. For how many rounds has this "feature" been a problem now?

I am confused. Donation "feature" as in alliance funds, or "feature" as in the so called production bug which allows you to tweak your value artificially through spending/cancelling?

[Travler]

Originally Posted by Assassin

Now this goes for allowing planets in and out of tag to donate TO the fund. When this fund was spoke of i knew somthing along these lines was going to happen. So now we have to most likely either remove it or hard code somthing in to prevent it from being abused.

How about a tick limit before you can leave an alliance or be kicked after donating or being given resources. I would say at least 8 ticks but no more than 72. This also would require than an alliance be able to prevent a player from donating if that player needed to be kicked.

[Stoom]

Originally Posted by Assassin

Now, i have never stated that we would stop scan planets being outside of tag, however, we can prevent them from getting unvolved with an unfair advantage to effect the game. (for example building one ship type and getting involved with defence/attacks) I dont see scans as an unfair disadvantage?

eXilition scanners were closed r15 even though they did not fit your description as being an unfair advantage to effect the game. Anyways as I read on I think Sid said it all.
How about a general excuse for all the people who got closed but shouldn't have gotten closed because of your mess?

As for the alliancefund problem, I already told Appocomaster before round started it was a flawed idea and gave (in my opinion) a decent solution. I still don't see why the fund is so easy to abuse as it is now.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

I am confused. Donation "feature" as in alliance funds, or "feature" as in the so called production bug which allows you to tweak your value artificially through spending/cancelling?

Did of course mean value. Edited my original post.

[Treveler]

The spirit of the fund feature is for the bigger planets to donate and help smaller planets. Make it so that only above average planets can donate and only below average planets can recieve donations. I guess this can still be 'exploited' in a scanners only tag, but I assume it will be harder to do so in a 'real' alliance.

[Remo]

I suggest that next round the alliance fund exists, but with small change. You can't donate to people anymore. HC can mark someone as scanplanet and that planet uses allyfund for scans. With this feature scan planet benefits from being intag by getting the resources to scans directly from alliance. There could be possibility to exchange resources as now.

To the production bug. Few rounds ago I remember bug which was instant recall. It was informed to pa-crew, but nothing was done to it. It was allso commonly known, but it was still illeagal to use it. Now it seems that pa has a bug that benefits the planet but this time the ones who knew about it are allowed to use it without fear of closure.

[Treveler]

That was classified as a bug and at least then it was illigal to exploit them (bugs). This is classified as an ingame feature though, but it takes a smarter head then mine to tell the difference.

[Veil05]

Originally Posted by Remo

I suggest that next round the alliance fund exists, but with small change. You can't donate to people anymore. HC can mark someone as scanplanet and that planet uses allyfund for scans. With this feature scan planet benefits from being intag by getting the resources to scans directly from alliance. There could be possibility to exchange resources as now.

To the production bug. Few rounds ago I remember bug which was instant recall. It was informed to pa-crew, but nothing was done to it. It was allso commonly known, but it was still illeagal to use it. Now it seems that pa has a bug that benefits the planet but this time the ones who knew about it are allowed to use it without fear of closure.

Hi, sorry, but i dont see how this is classed as a bug? im not saying your wrong, but could you explain to me exactly how this is a bug?

Cheers

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Remo

To the production bug. Few rounds ago I remember bug which was instant recall. It was informed to pa-crew, but nothing was done to it. It was allso commonly known, but it was still illeagal to use it. Now it seems that pa has a bug that benefits the planet but this time the ones who knew about it are allowed to use it without fear of closure.

The difference between the two is simple:

The instant recall was a bug, because fleets aren't meant to get back to base immediately - so the bug was allowing people to do something which wasn't meant to happen.

The value drop exploit ISN'T a bug - because your value is MEANT to drop when you spend resources and to go back up when either the ships come out or you cancel the order. That your bash limit drops while resources are spent is a side-effect of something which was intentional (or, more likely, not considered when "designing" the game). The exploit part of it arises from the fact that if you spend between your planet ticking and the end of tock value/score calc you get a value drop whilst still being able to cancel the order for a 100% refund. That is, however, the way in which the code was designed - and hence is NOT a bug, as the software is performing according to specification.

If the software acts as designed - but can be taken advantage of in an unforeseen way then it's an exploit. If the software performs other than as designed, then it's a bug. The difference between the two may seem trivial or pedantic - but in the case of an exploit people have no reason to believe that doing it is wrong, and people can do it unwittingly without noticing that anything unexpected happened. For example: someone whose getting covopped for resources a lot may well spend as soon as they get their income then cancel at the end of the tick (so their resources can't be hacked). If they're launching/landing fleets at the same time, then this behavious is identical functionally to someone spending for the intention of lowering their bash limit and/or increasing their XP - and they may not even realise they're doing it. Whereas if someone's fleet recalls instantaneously as a result of them doing something which there's no reasonable justification for in the normal course of play then it's an entirely different situation.

You can't punish someone for doing something which the software is MEANT to do - even if their reason for doing it is something which the "designers" didn't foresee.

But I still can't see why they don't just disable ordering ships (and cov-opping for resources) while the tick is in progress.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Treveler

That was classified as a bug and at least then it was illigal to exploit them (bugs). This is classified as an ingame feature though, but it takes a smarter head then mine to tell the difference.

If the software's not meant to do something it's a bug.
If the software is meant to do something - but that functionality can be used in an unexpected way then it's not a bug (just bad design).

[robban1]

its just fiddle with words m8 as their actions make them get target they normally cant attack it affect the gameplay and should be classified as a bug.
a feature is something that dont affect the general gameplay in the big picture and can be used now and then as a gimmick

[Chika]

Though Sid has a point, its still quite gay. Lucky I never had to do any of that gay stuff to do well. kudos

[Mighteh]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

The value drop exploit ISN'T a bug - and hence is NOT a bug, as the software is performing according to specification. [Heavely edited to cut to the point ]

During ANY bug software will be performing according to its specifications. Software just cant do anything else. its not a living breathing being with a mind of its own. Bug is a way to exploit software specifications that would bring results other then the unintensional result benefitiary to those who execte it, clearly constitutes exploiting a bug. (I am talking about those pretick cancells that drpo your value and not fully bring it up after refund from ships ordered.

[JonnyBGood]

I think you missed sid's point that there is a legitimate reason for hiding your resources right after the tick, ie to avoid covert-ops. At the start of the round I was covert-opping people like ten or fifteen seconds after the tick.

[Mighteh]

obviously. But consiously doing it with a goal to lower your score should not be hidden behind reasons like that. There are plenty of people who do that only 1-2 ticks a day (and not like this helps against CovOps that could be done just few ticks later) with their only goal to bring their value down. You know that it did happen, and that is constituted as eploitation of a bug, imo.
I didnt miss sid's point and on some angle, i agree with him. But, tbh, it does not cover the question, hence, redundant.

[JonnyBGood]

It means that it's vastly different from the example given of the instant fleet recalls. You just couldn't introduce a rule banning this as there's a legitimate reason for doing it. Not to say it shouldn't be changed for next round.

[Gio2k]

What reason is there for regarding resources spent on ships and resources not spent yet differently when it comes to calculating your value anyways?
I always thought that was a pretty dumb feature.

[ComradeRob]

Originally Posted by Mighteh

During ANY bug software will be performing according to its specifications. Software just cant do anything else. its not a living breathing being with a mind of its own. Bug is a way to exploit software specifications that would bring results other then the unintensional result benefitiary to those who execte it, clearly constitutes exploiting a bug. (I am talking about those pretick cancells that drpo your value and not fully bring it up after refund from ships ordered.

Specification refers to design rather than implementation. The game is designed so that your value drops when you spend, and it is designed to calculate value separately from the resource tick. That this can be exploited by players makes it an exploit not a bug. Exploits are design flaws and can only be fixed by changing the design of the game (the way things are meant to work).

A bug is something unpredictable, something you can't work out by looking at the design of the game. A bug is simply something that should not happen at all (or something that doesn't happen when it should), and most likely results from a mistake by a coder (and could be something as simply as a comma in the wrong place). You can't find a bug by looking at the design of the game, because the bug only exists at code level. Fixing it requires changing the code, not the design.

Admittedly, this is a distinction that is lost on most people. As proved in this thread, most people can't tell the difference (in fact, anyone without access to the code and design documents is really speculating).

The fact that nothing has been done about the production bug probably results from the fact that (as far as I know) no log of production spending is kept, whereas fleet movements are recorded and shown on the History page and News. This means that PA team might not be able to identify planets which abuse the resource bug, much less close or delete them. Sid's obvious solution is best; simply prevent resource spending during the tick, as is done with fleet movements.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Gio2k

What reason is there for regarding resources spent on ships and resources not spent yet differently when it comes to calculating your value anyways?
I always thought that was a pretty dumb feature.

It's there from ages ago. I think it was either to prevent planets just signing up and accumulating resources finishing high up and to sort of force big planets to spend their resources on ships instead of just accumulating them for score. Back then you actually needed ships to do well!

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

It's there from ages ago. I think it was either to prevent planets just signing up and accumulating resources finishing high up and to sort of force big planets to spend their resources on ships instead of just accumulating them for score. Back then you actually needed ships to do well!

Also, back then you got no refund if you cancelled an order. The situation arises from the usual mistake made in PA - adding a feature (in this case refunds when you cancel an order) without consideration of how it impacts on other aspects of game-play.

[Gio2k]

Refunds are a good feature. What needs to be done is calculate stored resources and production line resources the same way as resources spent on ships, and that would solve the whole issue.
Edit: The only thing that would change is that people would no longer be able to use sandmans to see if their target has spent his resources.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

I think you missed sid's point that there is a legitimate reason for hiding your resources right after the tick, ie to avoid covert-ops. At the start of the round I was covert-opping people like ten or fifteen seconds after the tick.

well as he does it to get under the bashlimit and not for hideing res for any coopers your point is erm pointless... there you have the bugexplore m8

[Willzzz]

You know, monster threads like these amuse me. This has gone from 1ups out of tag members, to the rules, to people using bugs which are features as no one did anything about them when informed. I have a feeling this is turning into another thread like the monster thread last round whicn included the debate about ND and DLR. Perhaps this thread has had its day now?

[lokken]

It's an interesting thread.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by robban1

well as he does it to get under the bashlimit and not for hideing res for any coopers your point is erm pointless... there you have the bugexplore m8

The point concerns prohibiting the action of spending resources during the tick, not any specific instances. However in this case as he is actually immune from covert-ops it's a bit different I suppose. I'm unsure as to where exactly we're disagreeing though, do you want a rule introduced mid-round prohibiting the spending of resources during the tick?

[robban1]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

The point concerns prohibiting the action of spending resources during the tick, not any specific instances. However in this case as he is actually immune from covert-ops it's a bit different I suppose. I'm unsure as to where exactly we're disagreeing though, do you want a rule introduced mid-round prohibiting the spending of resources during the tick?

lol im impressed by your dodgeing the question thingie in every post about the subject

he cancel it within the tick so his value lowers the next tick but his res a unspent doh

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by robban1

he cancel it within the tick so his value lowers the next tick but his res a unspent doh

What's so bad about it? Anyone can do it and it's hardly unknown.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by robban1

lol im impressed by your dodgeing the question thingie in every post about the subject

he cancel it within the tick so his value lowers the next tick but his res a unspent doh

What's your question? I'll answer all of them for good measure. Is it illegal? No. Did pateam know about it? Yes. Did they change it? No. Would I like to see it changed? Yes. Should things be changed mid-round? No.

Now aren't you glad you're not keanu reeves and this isn't the matrix.

[Remo]

What's your question? I'll answer all of them for good measure. Is it illegal? No. Did pateam know about it? Yes. Did they change it? No. Would I like to see it changed? Yes. Should things be changed mid-round? No.

Comparing this to the instant recall.

Was it illegal? Yes. did pateam know about it? yes. Did they change it before round when it was known? No. Did they change it midround after some major ally HC's complained? Yes. Should things be changed mid round? Yes, when it gives unfair advantage.

As this "feature", as you call it, gives some major advantage. Ability to attack more than 40% smaller people without loosing any res or highly increasing your own value.

Why did I compare it to instant recall? Well it was the first bug that came on to my mind. It is a bit more drastic one, but I really haven't heard about the other bugs that has existed during the real round. Some notations to certain bugs but they are not that widely discussed, or I just haven't been following conversations enough to know about these.

But to be honest, this "bug/feature/what ever you want to call this" conversation is leading nowhere. Some of us thinks it's a bug, some of us thinks it's feature. I heard about this production thingie just couple of days ago. Would I had used it if I knew it exists and I wouldn't get closed about using it? Yes. But at this point of the game 240 ticks or so remaining, it won't affect anyone even if it weren't/were coded out.

Edit: as you can see, 5 years of gaming and I am still a n00b

[Paddy]

A major difference between the fleet recall bug and this resource bug/feature is that PA admins have called the resource thing a feature, whereas they called the fleet recall thing a bug. The reason for them classifying these things differently has been explained previously but I'm going to have a go again just to for fun.

The fleet recall bug was an error in the actual coding of the game. It was something mistyped and overlooked. As such it is a bug, a flaw at code level. The resource feature is a side effect of the correct code running. This means it isn't a bug, it is a flaw at design level. It would actually be far more logical to compare the resource feature with the OOAOOG defence issue, as that was effectively a flaw in the way the game ran using the correct code.

On a slightly different note, this feature has been known about by PA team since at least r14 iirc. A fairly large member in ND was using this technique to hide resources so he could spend these hidden res to steal incs that didn't even know he had the res. I found out he was doing this and asked PA team about it. I was told that it was perfectly fine and nothing has been done about it since.

[robban1]

well the general idea whats wrong with it is that it makes the bashlimit not lower than 40% so the feature is indeed a breach of the eula no matter what the pa-team says.. if pateam dont enforce the rules on given subject ALL of the eula is invalid, so multi escort, sharing and god know what is ok to do from now on

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by robban1

well the general idea whats wrong with it is that it makes the bashlimit not lower than 40% so the feature is indeed a breach of the eula no matter what the pa-team says.. if pateam dont enforce the rules on given subject ALL of the eula is invalid, so multi escort, sharing and god know what is ok to do from now on

Ok, find somewhere in the EULA that says anything at all to do with a 40% bashlimit, in fact find anything that states that using a bug in code (which this isn't) or a design flaw (which this is) to your advantage is classed as cheating and you will have a point.

I'm actually astounded that there is nothing about bug abuse in the EULA but having just read through the section on cheating I'm pretty sure there isn't anything specific on the subject (although this isn't related to the current issue because it has already been explained a number of times that this isn't a bug).

I agree that it is a design flaw and should probably be fixed (should probably have been fixed a while ago in fact) but making up "facts" doesn't help your argument.

[jerome]

so what have we learnt this round children?
1/ planetarion is mostly played by idiots
2/ the pateam are, without all doubt, mostly filled with idiots
3/ all routes, threads, posts, comments, debates, discussions on ad are never-endingly circular

it's a good thing that this is vastly different from every other round.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Remo

Comparing this to the instant recall.

Was it illegal? Yes. did pateam know about it? yes. Did they change it before round when it was known? No. Did they change it midround after some major ally HC's complained? Yes. Should things be changed mid round? Yes, when it gives unfair advantage.

PAteam didn't know about instant recall pre-round?

[Remo]

PAteam didn't know about instant recall pre-round?

it was told to them. (according to dicussion that was made at that time, I can't be sure if that were true, since I wasn't reporting it)

[Remo]

With these features that has been discussed in this thread and found to be acceptable. I tell you how to win a round with free acco!

Call 60 friends to play the game, make sure the log into the account often enought that it won't be closed.

Make them init 300 roids (that should be enough). Stockpile the res for the whole round. In the final stages of the game each planet has approx 97,5 mil each res.

Here comes the fun part:

Make them donate it to ally fund. Make each planet donate the res (max 75 mil each at the time) to ally fund where that goes to 1 planet. Keep target planets value low with this production feature, so you can donate all the res to one single planet. Now that planet has 5,85 billion of res (thats 58 million of fleet value).

Win the game without a single attack.

And according these rules that has been discussed here THIS ISN'T EVEN CHEATING. Way to go!

[Veil05]

Originally Posted by Remo

With these features that has been discussed in this thread and found to be acceptable. I tell you how to win a round with free acco!

Call 60 friends to play the game, make sure the log into the account often enought that it won't be closed.

Make them init 300 roids (that should be enough). Stockpile the res for the whole round. In the final stages of the game each planet has approx 97,5 mil each res.

Here comes the fun part:

Make them donate it to ally fund. Make each planet donate the res (max 75 mil each at the time) to ally fund where that goes to 1 planet. Keep target planets value low with this production feature, so you can donate all the res to one single planet. Now that planet has 5,85 billion of res (thats 58 million of fleet value).

Win the game without a single attack.

And according these rules that has been discussed here THIS ISN'T EVEN CHEATING. Way to go!

if anyone goes to them exreme's to win, they deserve it, lol.

[Veil05]

Originally Posted by Remo

97500000/100 = 975000 (in value)

yeah i worked it out, deleted etc.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Remo

Make them donate it to ally fund. Make each planet donate the res (max 75 mil each at the time) to ally fund where that goes to 1 planet. Keep target planets value low with this production feature, so you can donate all the res to one single planet. Now that planet has 5,85 billion of res (thats 58 million of fleet value).

If you make them put mining 1st priority and build a few factories/research core minings while at it, you'll end up with 8 billion easily.

[Veedeejem!]

Originally Posted by Remo

With these features that has been discussed in this thread and found to be acceptable. I tell you how to win a round with free acco!

Call 60 friends to play the game, make sure the log into the account often enought that it won't be closed.

Make them init 300 roids (that should be enough). Stockpile the res for the whole round. In the final stages of the game each planet has approx 97,5 mil each res.

Here comes the fun part:

Make them donate it to ally fund. Make each planet donate the res (max 75 mil each at the time) to ally fund where that goes to 1 planet. Keep target planets value low with this production feature, so you can donate all the res to one single planet. Now that planet has 5,85 billion of res (thats 58 million of fleet value).

Win the game without a single attack.

And according these rules that has been discussed here THIS ISN'T EVEN CHEATING. Way to go!

I don't think that would work, i think it was appocomaster that said the res donation from alliance calcs in the score/valuegain from the donations. So if you're in an alliance with 59 other ppl that donate all their res to you you'll be way over the avg value/score, so the donation will be denied.
(not 100% sure about this so would like an answer from pa-team/appoco)

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Remo

it was told to them. (according to dicussion that was made at that time, I can't be sure if that were true, since I wasn't reporting it)

I'm pretty sure the first pateam heard of it was mid-round when someone used it to avoid being fleetcaught and people complained.


PS With the resources thing if you include covert-ops (use the production trick to lower your value to maximise gains) you'll end up with at least another million in value.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

I don't think that would work, i think it was appocomaster that said the res donation from alliance calcs in the score/valuegain from the donations. So if you're in an alliance with 59 other ppl that donate all their res to you you'll be way over the avg value/score, so the donation will be denied.
(not 100% sure about this so would like an answer from pa-team/appoco)

It definitely does. I ran into this problem a few times in the round.

PS Slow thought processes this morning

[Remo]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
I don't think that would work, i think it was appocomaster that said the res donation from alliance calcs in the score/valuegain from the donations. So if you're in an alliance with 59 other ppl that donate all their res to you you'll be way over the avg value/score, so the donation will be denied.
(not 100% sure about this so would like an answer from pa-team/appoco)

That's where the production feature comes into the picture. You keep your res in production. That value isn't counted as score / value, since at that moment it dosn't exist. (or am I mistaken, since I haven't really used that feature)

[SteInMetz]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

I don't think that would work, i think it was appocomaster that said the res donation from alliance calcs in the score/valuegain from the donations. So if you're in an alliance with 59 other ppl that donate all their res to you you'll be way over the avg value/score, so the donation will be denied.
(not 100% sure about this so would like an answer from pa-team/appoco)

Im pretty sure it would work actually, as you could just use the production "feature" to lower your value for the tick and then be under the avg value, which means you could recieve donations..

All it takes is that nobody really spends the resources on anything

[Veedeejem!]

Originally Posted by Remo

That's where the production feature comes into the picture. You keep your res in production. That value isn't counted as score / value, since at that moment it dosn't exist. (or am I mistaken, since I haven't really used that feature)

Even if you keep whatever res you have stored in production, the amount of value/score gained by all those resources would still put you miles over the avg (with 59ppl in your ally with close to 0 score/value this isn't hard). You would be unable to recieve a donation that size, since it only allows you to be donated to get max avg score/value so if the donations exceeds the max score/value you will be unable to recieve them.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

I don't think that would work, i think it was appocomaster that said the res donation from alliance calcs in the score/valuegain from the donations. So if you're in an alliance with 59 other ppl that donate all their res to you you'll be way over the avg value/score, so the donation will be denied.
(not 100% sure about this so would like an answer from pa-team/appoco)

Yes, but the point is, you can artificially lower your score to very near zero (if you have like 5 roids, 9 security centers, and 1 factory) through the production feature. This way, through "clever" cycling of donations, you can keep yourself below the average value (which is what counts, right?) to be able to accept donations. It is doable.

The point being, you just need to receive a multitude of smaller donations and keep on using the production bug to lower your value. If the "donation planets" have been building factories, say, 50, you can easily keep your value low enough to be able to gain a lot of donations through the round.

[JonnyBGood]

You're missing the point that your alliance's average value once the resources are donated to the alliance fund will be insanely low and the donation will put you miles over the limit. I guess you might be able to do it piecemeal for like 15 or 20% of the resources those planets earned but I doubt that would even get you into the top 200.

[Tietäjä]

Allright.
9 million resources in the fund; 60k value.
An average "help" planet having 20 structures (30k value), you have 2 (1 security center, 1 factory), 3k value. You have 3 roids (600 value), each of them has 200 (40k value). Hence, you have about 67k less value than an average help planet has, plus their resource hoards.

Donation clear, fund empty. "Help" planets donate more to the fund. You hide your resources using the production feature, and you're back down to value given by your 2 structures and 3 roids. You have 9 million resources around, but they're hidden. Repeat. 18 million. Repeat. 27 million. Repeat. 36 million. Repeat. 45 million. (which is already 450 k turned into raw fleet). Is my logic flawed?

At the point where the "help" planets have larger resource hoards, you can just donate a lot larger chunks in a doze, and then hide them again to repeat the process.

[Veedeejem!]

I doubt it if you managed to get into top 500 by doing that.
The fund is coded so it's practicly impossible to donate a planet to #1.
Though, maybe it would be sort of possible if you had a round where 59 ppl donated all to allyfund, and there's 1 real player in there, he then kicks all the resdonators out, recruits all 1up players with huge value, donates to himself all the res.
It might get you in t100, but not #1