u belive in fate

[starmog]

i just got into a conversation about if there is such a thing as fate?

do you thing that our paths have allready been decided, and we are kinda pre - programed to do what we do in life?


if so what decides what we do in life, who sets fate?


personaly i think there is such a thing as fate, and that our actions have allready been deicded..... but im not entirely sure what it has been decided by yet.....

[Apothos]

If our actions are already pre-determined, am i free from blame if i call you a twit?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by starmog
do you thing that our paths have allready been decided, and we are kinda pre - programed to do what we do in life?

No. There's no evidence of that, and it kind of conflicts with other stuff we know.

I believe in free-will being basically an illusion though, but that's another issue.

[rageybabey]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
No. There's no evidence of that, and it kind of conflicts with other stuff we know.

I believe in free-will being basically an illusion though, but that's another issue.

I think everything that happens is meant to happen. Whether or not we're "controlled' by some higher power seems a bit far fetched... I think we have free will...freedom to make the choices we do throughout our entire lives. But I also believe that some things are destined to be...true love for example... Some things are just meant to happen whether we understand them or not.

[Nusselt]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I believe in free-will being basically an illusion though, but that's another issue.

do tell.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by rageybabey
But I also believe that some things are destined to be...

How can we have free-will if this is the case?

Let's say for example I decide whether I should go out one night. Presumably this is a "free choice", yes? But then there, I meet the woman of my dreams. So was this supposed to happen or not?

Saying something was "meant" to happen seems pointlessly vague. When used in day-to-day life it seems used more of a method for relieving stress "Oh well, I lost my job but somethings are just supposed to happen"

[Apothos]

Originally posted by Nusselt
do tell.

The Matrix has you...

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Nusselt
do tell.

This has been discussed before, so I won't bring it up again, suffice to say W and I discussed this previously on this thread :

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...hreadid=157622

Particularly page 2 and 3, I think.

[Androme]

Originally posted by Apothos
The Matrix has you...

I was wondering how long it would take for the Matrix to pop-up just by reading the thread title - how unpredictable

[Nodrog]

No, its always seemed to me as just another thing people use to avoid taking responsibility for their lives.

[LHC]

I pretty much agree with what Nodrog just said.

[queball]

I think an object in motion is destined to remain in motion unless acted on by an external force. I'm not sure though.

[starmog]

Originally posted by queball
I think an object in motion is destined to remain in motion unless acted on by an external force. I'm not sure though.

meaning?

[Weeks]

If i can control my destiny then grand.
If i cant then there's nothing i can do about it.

Either way i can't see the point in worrying about it.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Weeks
Either way i can't see the point in worrying about it.

I don't think anyone was implying you should worry about it, but it's still fairly interesting topic to discuss, no?

[Kumnaa]

Fate does not exist, things happen because they happen. Nothing more to worry about. And as for true love, its all chemicals.

[Bloomers III]

more importantly

Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart
How the music can free her, whenever it starts
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll

If you believe in magic don't bother to choose
If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues
Just go and listen it'll start with a smile
It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tapping and you can't seem to find
How you got there, so just blow your mind

If you believe in magic, come along with me
We'll dance until morning 'til there's just you and me
And maybe, if the music is right
I'll meet you tomorrow, sort of late at night
And we'll go dancing, baby, then you'll see
How the magic's in the music and the music's in me

Yeah, do you believe in magic
Yeah, believe in the magic of a young girl's soul
Believe in the magic of rock and roll
Believe in the magic that can set you free
Ohh, talking 'bout magic

Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic
Do you believe like I believe Do you believe, believer
Do you believe like I believe Do you believe in magic

[queball]

Originally posted by starmog
meaning?

Meaning... you can't seperate the question of fate from the question of knowledge. If you believe in fate but are "not entirely sure what it has been decided by yet" you might as well be contemplating the nature of your navel's existence.Are you partially sure?

We have ways of figuring out the future such as science and common sense. Given the number of people you meet in life, love is very likely for a typical healthy person. There's also conviction and intution which are sometimes good too but again subject to reason. What someone might mean by fate is they believe that "fate" talks to them through voices or scripture (ie. they have little appreciation of human frailty or probability). Or cosmology or palm reading. A lot of talk of fate is pushed by people selling or smoking something.

[Deffeh]

i dont know if its "fate", but i have a sinking feeling that my actions are slightly predetermined, that all actons are formulaic. For example, if you sat me down on a seat and told me to open Box A or Box B which were both on a table, id ALWAYS go for one of them, no matter how many times that situation would arise.

I feel when im faced with a choice i cant rebel against it. Like im goading myself into going one way or the other. Difficult to explain, its rather schizophrenic in a way. Every decision i make is the result of a series of different factors, its not really my choice.

for instance, i couldnt have chosen not to make this post. i just did. which tempts me to close the page, which makes me think if thats what i was "meant" to do.

oh well.

[W]

Originally posted by Deffeh
i dont know if its "fate", but i have a sinking feeling that my actions are slightly predetermined, that all actons are formulaic. For example, if you sat me down on a seat and told me to open Box A or Box B which were both on a table, id ALWAYS go for one of them, no matter how many times that situation would arise.

I feel when im faced with a choice i cant rebel against it. Like im goading myself into going one way or the other. Difficult to explain, its rather schizophrenic in a way. Every decision i make is the result of a series of different factors, its not really my choice.

for instance, i couldnt have chosen not to make this post. i just did. which tempts me to close the page, which makes me think if thats what i was "meant" to do.

oh well.

The past is always fixed, that doesn't mean the future is. After youv'e done it, there was nothing else you can do, but before, you could pick any of the choices.

[JonnyBGood]

I don't think there's a difference between a world with fate and one without to be honest.

[Deffeh]

but every decision i make ever, is nothing more than a subliminal weighing up of all stimuli. We make unconscious judgements based on heat, light, shelter, past experience etc. Then these judgements are weighed against each other. Other factors, ie, level of attentiveness (drugs altered?), mood, determination to rebel count too.

In effect, Every decision ive ever made has been the right one at the time. Even "wrong" ones, where ive upset someone, or not been funny - you get the point. Based on the evidence we are aware of at the time, we would always make the same decision.

I cant word this properly. Ill try again tommorow

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Deffeh
but every decision i make ever, is nothing more than a subliminal weighing up of all stimuli.

I kind of agree, but what about a random or pseudo-random element?

[Aryn]

i believe that 'coincedences' are more than just merely coincidences.

for example i knew a girl who told me this story. her sister was supposed to go out driving with her friends. her mom got this 'bad feeling' and told her not to go. the girl was going to go out anyway but at the last minute changed her mind to make her mom happy. that night her friends were killed in a car accident. so if she had gone out, would she have been killed as well? so does that mean she was supposed to die that night? or maybe not since her mom kept her home... *shrug*

[Kumnaa]

Originally posted by Deffeh
but every decision i make ever, is nothing more than a subliminal weighing up of all stimuli. We make unconscious judgements based on heat, light, shelter, past experience etc. Then these judgements are weighed against each other. Other factors, ie, level of attentiveness (drugs altered?), mood, determination to rebel count too.

In effect, Every decision ive ever made has been the right one at the time. Even "wrong" ones, where ive upset someone, or not been funny - you get the point. Based on the evidence we are aware of at the time, we would always make the same decision.

I cant word this properly. Ill try again tommorow

yes, thats how the human mind works, it dosent just make random decisions based on nothing every time it has a choice to make

[Kumnaa]

Originally posted by Aryn
i believe that 'coincedences' are more than just merely coincidences.

for example i knew a girl who told me this story. her sister was supposed to go out driving with her friends. her mom got this 'bad feeling' and told her not to go. the girl was going to go out anyway but at the last minute changed her mind to make her mom happy. that night her friends were killed in a car accident. so if she had gone out, would she have been killed as well? so does that mean she was supposed to die that night? or maybe not since her mom kept her home... *shrug*

but if she had gone out would here friends have been in the same place at the same time and had the accident?

[W]

Originally posted by Deffeh
but every decision i make ever, is nothing more than a subliminal weighing up of all stimuli. We make unconscious judgements based on heat, light, shelter, past experience etc. Then these judgements are weighed against each other. Other factors, ie, level of attentiveness (drugs altered?), mood, determination to rebel count too.

In effect, Every decision ive ever made has been the right one at the time. Even "wrong" ones, where ive upset someone, or not been funny - you get the point. Based on the evidence we are aware of at the time, we would always make the same decision.

I cant word this properly. Ill try again tommorow

You say it like you had knowledge of it, and not just a belief.

[Aryn]

i should have clarified.
she would have been in the same car. :\

[Kumnaa]

Originally posted by Aryn
i should have clarified.
she would have been in the same car. :\

what i meant was would the car have been in the same place if they had gone to pick her up ?

[LHC]

if someone is controlling everything we do, I don't think we'd be discussing whether or not they are controlling us

[Aryn]

dunno
they still went (well were going) to the same place as planned.



ok how bout this one (it's a bit of a longer story..and i may have said it on the forums before so bear with me.)

myself and 3 friends were in band class in grade 9. nicole, laurel, and marina were there names. the day before we left for a band trip to Banff (alberta) laurel had gone to the doctor's for a regular checkup and came up positive for mono... and so she couldn't go. anyway. while we were in banff, there was this time when we were crossing the road (j-walking)... marina ran across cause she's crazy, nicole followed.. whereas i hung back to wait for the car, and in my mind i could picture laurel hesitating, then running ahead and getting hit. she was my best friend and so i knew that was the exact timing she would have had. it shook me up, and i told nicole and marina what i saw and they agreed that it's something that could have happened. (not saying laurel was a dumbass for running in front of cars, but the car was going faster than i thought, and i could see laurel misjudging that as well.)

anyways.. we got home and turns out laurel had absolutely no symptoms of being sick, so her mom let her stay home from school and hang around anyway (she would have missed classes for the trip..).


so. she got mis-diagnosed, which caused her to stay home. if she had been in Banff.. would she have gotten hit by the car?

perhaps coincidence isn't the right word i'm trying to think of.. but things like this just make you wonder.

[meaple]

Fate does exist. end of story.

Watch Final Destination and Final Destination 2 (even though they both are teh suck)

[Woof]

Originally posted by meaple
Final Destination

After the plane explodes and the gang are sitting in the departure lounge, each picture in the background of the lounge depicts their fate/death.

Anyway, back to the point.
I think your view is dependant on your past experiences.
When i was younger i would have said no, but as i've grown older there have been a few incidences which have changed my mind.
Some of those, have had a major effect on my life, and changed the course of my life making me the person i am today, making me believe more in fate..........

Only the banana really knows

[Mirai]

I dislike the idea that I have no control over what I do.

Sorta takes the entire meaning out of life.

[Deffeh]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I kind of agree, but what about a random or pseudo-random element?

such as?

Originally posted by Kumnaa
yes, thats how the human mind works, it dosent just make random decisions based on nothing every time it has a choice to make

of course, but i believe that my course of action is determined by these - that i dont have an overrule not based on factors.

Originally posted by W
You say it like you had knowledge of it, and not just a belief.

Do you disagree, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate? I dont see why id do anything different given the situations i was put in. Even big regrets, i made actions based on feelings, enviroment, outside influence.

[Dante Hicks]

The universe isn't clockwork. My understanding of such matters is highly limited but if you could rewind time and then let it replay, not all events would happen again in the same way. Quantum reactions, etc aren't "predictable" in the deterministic framework. What if reactions (on some level) in our brain work on the same principal? That wouldn't imply true freedom, but it would mean that given the exact same external stimuli in two distinct cases two different decisions might be met. Think of my "rolling the dice" analogy in the previous thread.

[PureviL]

Originally posted by Kumnaa
what i meant was would the car have been in the same place if they had gone to pick her up ?

Maybe her mom just killed her friends?

[Elfhelm]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
The universe isn't clockwork. My understanding of such matters is highly limited but if you could rewind time and then let it replay, not all events would happen again in the same way. Quantum reactions, etc aren't "predictable" in the deterministic framework. What if reactions (on some level) in our brain work on the same principal? That wouldn't imply true freedom, but it would mean that given the exact same external stimuli in two distinct cases two different decisions might be met. Think of my "rolling the dice" analogy in the previous thread.

Our brains are controlled by the laws of physics, and so therefore are our decisions. Stuff isn't unpredictable, it's just that we don't know how to predict it.

[djbass]

No

=[DJ Bass]=

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Our brains are controlled by the laws of physics, and so therefore are our decisions.

Yes.

Stuff isn't unpredictable, it's just that we don't know how to predict it.

Maybe. Schrondigers Cat.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Our brains are controlled by the laws of physics, and so therefore are our decisions. Stuff isn't unpredictable, it's just that we don't know how to predict it.

Go and learn about quantum physics. If the standard model is correct (in this aspect), then it is impossible to know, not just 'very difficult'.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I don't think there's a difference between a world with fate and one without to be honest.

Only in a world of fate would Goran Ivanisovich win wimbledon.

[Deffeh]

but even still, rolling a dice. in that same situations, with the same stakes, the same weight of dice, other factors like the grip of my hand, whether my hand is sweaty or not - in that same situation, id always roll the same number.

it is impossible unfortunately to create two completely 100% similar situations

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Deffeh
but even still, rolling a dice. in that same situations, with the same stakes, the same weight of dice, other factors like the grip of my hand, whether my hand is sweaty or not - in that same situation, id always roll the same number.

What you're describing is called Laplacian Determinism, and went out with quantum theory.

[queball]

Originally posted by Aryn
(1) ...her mom got this 'bad feeling'...that night her friends were killed in a car accident

...

(2) ...came up positive for mono...i could picture laurel hesitating, then running ahead and getting hit. she was my best friend and so i knew that was the exact timing she would have had...would she have gotten hit by the car?

...

perhaps coincidence isn't the right word i'm trying to think of.. but things like this just make you wonder.

Wonder about what?
These two stories are actually quite interesting taken together. The first is much stronger evidence than the second; the mother actually got a feeling which was, apparently, acted on. It's also the story that involves a "friend of a friend". I'm sure the number of friends (in a loose sense of friend) of friends you have is at least a few thousand. Say a "strong" coincidence happens to one in a thousand people, is that good evidence of fate?

I think the word you're looking for is "women's intuition". I'd guess the mother saw the shots of vodka the drivers were taking.

As for the second story, I think it shows more about you than anything else. If she really had mono and couldn't come and so had her life saved, it'd still be fate, right? That a good friend is away for any reason can make someone think about them. How many times are you out and about doing dangerous stuff while thinking about a member of your party who is absent? Are you often more scared about a situation than you should be? And how many times do people you're with or know actually have accidents?

Have you studied statistics at all by the way? Here's a short article on coincidence: http://www.theness.com/articles/coincidence-cs0104.html. There are quite a few books written on the subject (skepticism of coincidence/fate).

[Deffeh]

Care to explain to a non-physicist?

Also

Originally sung by Oasis. "The Masterplan"

Im not saying right is wrong
Its up to us to make
The best of all the things that come our way
Cause everything thats been has passed
The answers in the looking glass
Theres four and twenty million doors
Down life's endless corridors
Sing it loud and say it proud today

Dance if you wanna dance
Please brother take a chance
You know we're gonna go, which way we're gonna go
All we know is that, we dont know what is gonna be
Please brother let it be
Life on the other hand, wont let you understand
Why we're all part of the masterplan

the thread reminded me of it somewhat.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Care to explain to a non-physicist?

It's because of the way that quantum mechanics deals with probabilities, rather than absolutes.

[queball]

Physics from Fisher Information is a good book for non-physicists (I assume that everyone is either a physics student or a mathematics student).

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by queball
Physics from Fisher Information is a good book for non-physicists (I assume that everyone is either a physics student or a mathematics student).

I hear there are some compscis out there. They scare me.

[W]

Originally posted by Deffeh
Do you disagree, or are you just playing Devil's Advocate? I dont see why id do anything different given the situations i was put in. Even big regrets, i made actions based on feelings, enviroment, outside influence.

Whether I'm playind devils advocate or not is immaterial to my argument (and it's not like I've gone to great lenghts to hide my own beliefs). Just because you can't see how you could have made anything different, doesn't mean that you know you couldn't have made anything different.

Do you not have impulses? Do you think ALL your values, every single one of your idiosyncracies was desided by external or internally deterministic factors?