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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 15:33   #1
Zeke
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Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Okay simple thing: There is NO option in alliances page to change the access for members for just Outgoing fleets. You either see nothing or everything.
That means you either have a big disadvantage for defence if you dont let members see fleets to prevent spying, or you have a big disadvantage with spies, because they can just simply tell the exact amount of ships in a fleet, making fakes pointless (distorter and inc scan too btw.)

Just so you know what has happened: I was attacking pommeh, who had all his beetle out, he didnt get defence for my fighter, but instead built the exact amount of beetle to stop my fleet. He couldnt have know what was in it: "Wave Amplifier 15", i have 40 distorters..
I have changed fleet names regularly and havent landed the last ~30 ticks. I didnt send a fake and I didnt send real, I sent a completely random number of fighters. He neither covered vs fake, nor vs real fleet, but vs the exact amount of fighter i am sending. I checked calc, if i jsut send around 5k more, not everything would have been freezed. he ofc had enough resources to completely cover my inc anyway, even if it was real, thats not the point here. Point is P3ng have inferno spies, and we cannot do anything against it, due to limited alliance page access options.. I know Spying is a common thing, but it shouldnt be made so easy, at least it is like cheating and being atraitor and a liar to all you allymates that even def you. There should be a little more effort needed to be able to spy and a little less effort needed to find that leaks... Not vice versa as it is now..

So Pa Team, simple thing. Game at the moment has cheating enabled. Its like you play Counterstrike and someone has a wallhack, you either leave or ban that player. In Pa wallhacking is allowed, Pa team doesnt do anything against it, and with those limited alliance access options, we dont have the possibilty to kick him from alliance, because we cant find out who he/she is, thus you allow cheating and leave us no choice but to leave the game.. Which is what im doing now. No point in further wasting time if cheating is legal here. This is not a rage quit, but a common sense quit. And I wont come back until you have fixed this.. Bye
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 15:53   #2
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Common sense rage quit? :P

The option to have members view the outgoing def fleets while not viewing outgoing attack fleets would be a very welcome one. If only to stimy the paranoia.
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:02   #3
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Zeke the solution would be to increase tag limits.
Im sure we got about 5 People in my alliance from various alliances who are there to give of intel.
Most "pro alliances" have spies all over the place.
And dont you think its a bit odd you got a P3ng in that gal you were attacking?
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:09   #4
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Yeah Cartman is added to the many suspects so far :P But doesnt matter, currently there is no real option to find a spy..
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:15   #5
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Yeah Cartman is added to the many suspects so far :P But doesnt matter, currently there is no real option to find a spy..
Well not saying Cartman did this, but this is normal for "top gals".
They look out for each other, and gal ranking means more than allie ranking
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:18   #6
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Yeah I dont have a problem with someone caring for his galmates, I have a problem with playing a game that supports cheating :P
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:24   #7
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Yeah I dont have a problem with someone caring for his galmates, I have a problem with playing a game that supports cheating :P
Its not cheating.
Its been a part of this game for god knows how long.
The smaller tag limits means that not all players can play within their own alliance, they need to join other tags.
Top gals will Ensure that they stay on the top, even that means "cheating on their allie mates".
Im quite shocked that on how you deal with this, like you never thought it would happend.
Now, this does not say im pro spying, or that i dont think that this is an idea that shoudl be implented.
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:46   #8
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Whether or not it has been a part of this game doesn't say anything about what it is. I call it cheating. Imagine a game like dota 2, where 2 clans of 5 players each are playing the world championship for 5,000,000 $ and one team has a 6th player, telling the other team where each enemy player is and what he's up to. Wow that sucks and is really boring. And in my world this is called cheating, dont know how you call it, and valve calls it cheating too, so they prevent it from being possible by delaying whats happening about 2-5 minutes for viewers in puplic games and dont allow anyone contacting those 5 players in the championship at all. This is fair game and is interesting. How i deal with this is called consequence, and leave the game. If those players that spy dont realise it is cheating and makes other players leave the game, thus constantly decreasing the player base of their beloved game, then they will end up seeing a universe of 120 players and a soonish shutdown of servers.. :P (I know there are many more problems, for example that this game has not really evolved much since start no gfx updates, a good app whatsoever, but, that doesnt make spying a valid option to me any more..)
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 16:49   #9
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

How have turned this post into increase tag limits again??

That is some impressive trolling!!!

ZeKe I never knew you but bye. PA team won't change basic things more important than this. Your Emoquit won't solve things
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 17:11   #10
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba
How have turned this post into increase tag limits again??

That is some impressive trolling!!!

ZeKe I never knew you but bye. PA team won't change basic things more important than this. Your Emoquit won't solve things
Butcher always finds a way..
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 17:12   #11
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

I know they wont and you know why? Because all you guys that still play dont care or have consequence. If youd all just quit like me (which is kinda like the only logic consequence, i mean who wants to play with cheater?) Maybe they would change it :P Me "emo"quiting ( I dont care at all tbh, i just have manners and explain why i go, if i do so ) is the only signal one can send if abusing the game doesn't change things. Or maybe the remaining players like it that way? o0 IN that case have fun and bb.
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 17:13   #12
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
How have turned this post into increase tag limits again??

That is some impressive trolling!!!

ZeKe I never knew you but bye. PA team won't change basic things more important than this. Your Emoquit won't solve things
Everything is about tag limits dont u see
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 17:26   #13
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

I don't see anything wrong with the OP's suggestion.
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 17:39   #14
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I know they wont and you know why? Because all you guys that still play dont care or have consequence. If youd all just quit like me (which is kinda like the only logic consequence, i mean who wants to play with cheater?) Maybe they would change it :P Me "emo"quiting ( I dont care at all tbh, i just have manners and explain why i go, if i do so ) is the only signal one can send if abusing the game doesn't change things. Or maybe the remaining players like it that way? o0 IN that case have fun and bb.
If we all quit they would just turn off the servers. That is what every suggestion on this board misses. Changes don't happen because they game is dying, the PA team is merely overseeing its decline.

This game is finished, bar a few mminor tweaks it will never change. You quitting or all of us quitting will not suddenly spring them into action. It exsists because we log in/signup. If we stopped it would cease to exists.

So either partake in the nostalgia or kindly **** off. Either way no one cares
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 17:56   #15
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

I wouldn't mind this tweak, more options to customize alliance levels is always welcome.

I dont know the levels required but basic members should be able to view intel on the galaxy page without requiring full access.
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 21:53   #16
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
we cannot do anything against it
Yes, you can. Find the spies and kick them.

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I call it cheating.
And I call it muffins.

However, cheating and muffins are two things it's definitely not. Point out the rule in the EULA that forbids this. Or rather, don't bother, because there isn't one. This is just emotionally charged language which is about as convincing as if you'd bashed your face into your keyboard instead.

That said, I find myself agreeing somewhat that it's probably a little too easy to find highly valuable information like this. However, the information is very valuable for 'legitimate' use too. Making it accessible for the good guys and inaccessible for the bad guys is a little bit too easy. I would sooner make it unavailable for everyone.
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Unread 19 Nov 2014, 23:17   #17
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Changing access to allow members to only see incoming fleets would still mean that spies could leak details of (fake) defence fleets though - so it wouldn't be a complete solution.

We could go back to the old system of (trusted) DCs having access to the fleet details together with responsibility for handling the def calls. But wait! No one wants to put in that sort of effort these days.
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Unread 20 Nov 2014, 00:31   #18
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Yes, you can. Find the spies and kick them.
Aha the whole ally has been thinking of ways to find out who it is. If you can come up with a suitable solution enlighten us with your wisdom..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
However, cheating and muffins are two things it's definitely not. Point out the rule in the EULA that forbids this. Or rather, don't bother, because there isn't one. This is just emotionally charged language which is about as convincing as if you'd bashed your face into your keyboard instead.
Whether anything stands in any of humankind's written "EULA" doesn't make it right or wrong. I call it cheating, because it is. if you dont agree then okay. You could read the definition of cheating on wikipedia if u want to check out a different opinion. I Probably created this thread because I would like the game if there wasnt so much abuse possibilities and maybe some admin would consider doing something about it. I simply have no fun in playing a game versus cheaters. And again you can call me emoquitting and emotional reactions whatsoever, won't change the fact that im just acting consequent. I dont want to play with cheaters. So i leave and tell you why. And cause I like the game in theory I explain the reason why, so maybe someone can do something about it..
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Unread 20 Nov 2014, 13:38   #19
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Aha the whole ally has been thinking of ways to find out who it is. If you can come up with a suitable solution enlighten us with your wisdom..
Get a spy in p3nguins. Compose a list of high-risk targets with close links to p3nShare information with specific people and see if it spreads. Use any of the methods that have been in use for 10+ years. This is not a new problem.

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Whether anything stands in any of humankind's written "EULA" doesn't make it right or wrong.
I did not comment on your opinions on whether spying is morally sound. I commented on your claim that spying is cheating. The definition of cheating is clear: it is whatever the EULA forbids. The EULA does not forbid spying, therefore, spying is not cheating. You could say that you think it should be cheating. I still disagree with that, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with that point of view. But right now, spying is not cheating. This is not up for discussion, it is a fact.

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I call it cheating, because it is.
No, you're calling it cheating because you don't like it. I don't know, maybe you think that by applying the label 'cheating', you will get people to agree with you, because everyone knows cheating = bad. I'm calling you out on it because that's factually wrong at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

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And again you can call me emoquitting and emotional reactions whatsoever, won't change the fact that im just acting consequent.
The only one who's talking about emoquitting is you. Stop playing the victim.


You'll notice that despite my objections to your posting style and arguments, I've accepted your actual point as valid. You don't need to resort to crap like this. Relax, frame your argument with reason, and people will listen. Whine, threaten, distort the truth and/or lie, and people like myself will call you a ****wit:

****wit.
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Unread 20 Nov 2014, 17:57   #20
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

You dont understand me. You say cheating is whatever the EULA forbids. But EULA is for this game only. So for this game you are right, but I was refering to cheating in general. You are basically saying, that if one country hasnt specified murder as crime, it is okay to do it.. I dont really care what this game defines as cheating, I was just pointing out a situation, that in my opinion and (i recommend wikipedia definition) the one of many others is defined as cheating.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The only one who's talking about emoquitting is you. Stop playing the victim.
Wrong:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Your Emoquit won't solve things
And your 'solution' for the spying doesnt really work. We tried many things, we have many suspects, still impossible to find out, if the spy is clever.. Even worse that there hasn't been done much if the problem is known since 10+ years..
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Unread 20 Nov 2014, 18:37   #21
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
You dont understand me. You say cheating is whatever the EULA forbids. But EULA is for this game only. So for this game you are right, but I was refering to cheating in general. You are basically saying, that if one country hasnt specified murder as crime, it is okay to do it.. I dont really care what this game defines as cheating, I was just pointing out a situation, that in my opinion and (i recommend wikipedia definition) the one of many others is defined as cheating.
I understand you perfectly. It's just that what you're saying is incorrect. It's false. Erroneous. Mistaken. Invalid. Spurious. Off. Mistaken. It went wide of the mark, it's contrary to fact, it is not a thing that is true. Look, I'm running out of ways to say you're wrong here.

The word cheating means anything that's against the game's rules. That is the meaning of the word cheating. It's breaking the rules. The EULA contains the rules for this game, so if someone's cheating, they are breaking the EULA. If they're not breaking the EULA, they are not cheating.

What the rules of other games are is utterly irrelevant. Different game mechanics lead to different abuse scenarios, so different games have different rules. The rules of chess don't apply to PA. The rules of Counter-Strike don't apply to PA. The rules of football don't apply to PA. Only the rules of the game you're actually playing apply. Only the rules of PA apply to PA.

On top of that, I repeat once more that I'm not commenting on the deeper ethical dilemmas of spying. I'm commenting on the legality of it, which is what the word 'cheating' refers to. It's clear you think that spying is immoral. We all get it. But, and I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself: spying is not, has never been and never will be cheating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Wrong:
Well done, you found a direct response. I will invite you to read AD mod gripe 18 and ponder how a small modification of it applies to this situation.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 21 Nov 2014, 09:25   #22
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

I know how about they lower tag limit so its easier to play with people you trust,

Seriously tho spies are part of the game imo. Most of them are alliance hoppers

Last edited by Enyeez; 21 Nov 2014 at 09:30.
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Unread 21 Nov 2014, 12:23   #23
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The word cheating means anything that's against the game's rules. That is the meaning of the word cheating.
Everything you say is completely right, however I wasnt refering to the word "cheating" related to gaming, but the pure meaning of the word "cheating" itself. Maybe this word isnt used as anything else but related to games in english speaking countries, but in germany it is a translation of "schummeln", another word for this in english could be "to fudge on something". And I basically don't like to play games with / or against people that are fudging/cheating. I know Pa rules are different to other games, but this is what Im trying to explain here. I dont care what the rules of ANY game are. If cheating/fudgin is allowed i dont like it anymore. And I compared PA to other games because in other games you have better possibilites to deal with such people, they get kicked or banned and there are protection systems. And I am suggesting PA needs something like this too, else its no wonder Players dont have fun playing it :/
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Unread 21 Nov 2014, 14:08   #24
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

Quote:
schummeln
1. to cheat
I'll be over here teaching quantum physics to a monkey. Better chances of success.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 21 Nov 2014 at 16:01. Reason: Fixed, you damn wiseass!
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Unread 21 Nov 2014, 14:59   #25
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Re: Change access options in alliances to NOT support spying so much!!

*teaching


Yay finally a mistake to pick him up on!!!!
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