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2 Apr 2017, 17:42
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#1
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The evil stats guy
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 242
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R72 shipstats
Anyone fancy doing the r72 shipstats?
Oversight will be limited this round to promote diversity in AD/DC between rounds. Mostly the main targetting scheme will need to be approved.
Stats have to be ready and approve before R71 EORC starts
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2 Apr 2017, 20:29
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#2
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: R72 shipstats
Has someone like Agar3s done the stats yet?
Someone who has a tactical brain like his would surely put a quality set together.
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3 Apr 2017, 14:22
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Emerald Dream
Posts: 116
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Re: R72 shipstats
agar3s is a bot programmed to DC only
He would have no idea how to make stats
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3 Apr 2017, 16:05
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,143
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Has someone like Agar3s done the stats yet?
Someone who has a tactical brain like his would surely put a quality set together.
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agar3s tactical? please. There's a lot of luck involved
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3 Apr 2017, 17:01
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#5
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
not my turn to make stats, im surprised that eksero hasn't volunteered to do a set
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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3 Apr 2017, 17:15
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,143
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
not my turn to make stats, im surprised that eksero hasn't volunteered to do a set
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That sounds like way too much effort for my liking
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3 Apr 2017, 18:53
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 499
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Re: R72 shipstats
How about Xan only, to make up for the travesty this round?
__________________
Founder and HC of [Denial] and [Evolution]
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3 Apr 2017, 19:36
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#8
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Don't make me declare war
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Portsmouth
Posts: 2,913
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Re: R72 shipstats
Ok so we are all agreed Venox doesn't do stats!
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4 Apr 2017, 08:24
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,143
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Ok so we are all agreed Venox doesn't do stats!
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I'm all for all xan!
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4 Apr 2017, 17:07
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#10
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
having a round of cloakers would be fun
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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15 Apr 2017, 14:31
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#11
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
Nobody has seemed particularly interested in them in the past but I am still happy to have my most recent proposed set as a possibility http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201179
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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16 Apr 2017, 22:44
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#12
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
I might volunteer a set if there is no other takers
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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17 Apr 2017, 10:28
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#13
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respect, unity, order
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 280
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Re: R72 shipstats
Just want to chip in and say I think this set rocks.
The extremely OP and broken emp of the past rounds is gone. Emp is stoppable atm, that's good.
Nice holes in every race, options for fakes all around due to shipcosts being in line and teamwork is rewarded.
imo it's the best set in ages. (altough some things can be improved, some rough edges etc).
__________________
Together We Stand Divided We Fall
[Ğragons]
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17 Apr 2017, 10:46
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#14
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
That should surely have gone in http://pirate.planetarion.com/showth...96#post3255796
Unless you are advocating running the same set again next round?
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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17 Apr 2017, 12:27
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#15
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
I would need access to beta/speedgame to do emp and tweaking for the set.
I would aim for emp eff at 160% t1 and about 120% t2
It is a 5 race set with some nice options
The set is offensive in nature and alot of roiding options both for the individual and teaming up
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
Last edited by Paisley; 17 Apr 2017 at 12:38.
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17 Apr 2017, 12:46
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#16
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
Only emp out inits xan fi.
Only emp out inits xan fr.
How do you expect this not to be a massively xan heavy round?
Do you intend xan to be much more vulnerable to emp than other races?
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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17 Apr 2017, 14:04
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#17
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 168
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
I would need access to beta/speedgame to do emp and tweaking for the set.
I would aim for emp eff at 160% t1 and about 120% t2
It is a 5 race set with some nice options
The set is offensive in nature and alot of roiding options both for the individual and teaming up
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Please no same init emp again
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17 Apr 2017, 15:51
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#18
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
Only emp out inits xan fi.
Only emp out inits xan fr.
How do you expect this not to be a massively xan heavy round?
Do you intend xan to be much more vulnerable to emp than other races?
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how do you expect xans to hold the roids?
xans are easily roided by ter bs, etd de and cr if the numbers are suffient, cath and zik frig, xan fi and xan frig
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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17 Apr 2017, 15:51
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#19
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandvold
Please no same init emp again
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what do you suggest?
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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17 Apr 2017, 17:02
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#20
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
how do you expect xans to hold the roids?
xans are easily roided by ter bs, etd de and cr if the numbers are suffient, cath and zik frig, xan fi and xan frig
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I am not sure that is a very good answer. A lot of that depends on the emp values and is difficult to tell without them being in a calc. However as cat and etd cant really concentrate their fleets much more than xan presumably they will be very open to both xan fleets. So you are saying that xan is not op because it can roid everything, but cant be roided by everything?
I also am not wild about all emp being same initiative, it seems lazy, but in practice it is not nearly as bad as when you have killships of the same initiative. The outcome is simply many more occasions where both sides fully emp each other. It does take a tactical dimension out of the stats which I dont particularly like.
Overall I guess my biggest gripe is that they seem to me to be rather boring. They dont have any interesting idea to them (I know this is rather a big ask). Nothing to make me think 'oh I want to play next round if there is a set like this'.
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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17 Apr 2017, 21:36
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#21
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
Unless you are advocating running the same set again next round?
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They probably weren't, but I will: if the set is indeed good, then why not? No point taking unnecessary risks if we have a known-good set ready to go.
(Note the 'if'; I am not giving an opinion on the quality of the current set.)
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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17 Apr 2017, 22:05
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#22
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
You will never have everyone agree that they are an amazing set! They are certainly more balanced than many as there are several options that are working well (whether this is due to no cloak or low emp eff I am not sure).
However they are by no means perfect. No one has really tried bs this round so difficult to say if they are an option or not - and if someone was using it this would have a major knock on effect on cr which is quite good precisely because there is so little etd bs around. Co seems to be seriously underpowered; even app as an alliance that has gone all co without much in the way of any def ships is having trouble landing with them. This in turn implies that at least one of fr/fr/de is op in comparison to co - particularly fi with the spider firing before the beetle.
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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18 Apr 2017, 13:16
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#23
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respect, unity, order
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 280
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
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I'm advocating running a set that takes the positives from the current set.
Quote:
xans are easily roided by ter bs, etd de and cr if the numbers are suffient, cath and zik frig, xan fi and xan frig
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Can we please avoid another shit round where xan roids xan.
__________________
Together We Stand Divided We Fall
[Ğragons]
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18 Apr 2017, 13:55
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#24
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by berten
I'm advocating running a set that takes the positives from the current set.
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Yeah, it would be nice if a set of ship stats was like a puzzle that you can always put together perfectly, but it doesn't really work like that.
Instead, you get a whole bunch of puzzle pieces that don't really fit together. You try your best to make them into a nice picture anyway, but invariably, when you're 80% done, you will always be left with a bunch of oddly shaped holes that you can't fit any of your leftover puzzle pieces into. So you grab a hammer to force them in the best you can, just to get it finished. But you can't go back and say "that bit is clearly totally wrong, why didn't you pick a different piece?", because that was the best piece you had left, and if you'd picked another, some other piece would fit worse.
Unless you're talking about very abstract concepts, like how offensive or defensive a set is or whether 0-loss defense exists or not, you can't exactly cut and paste a set of stats together from the good bits of other sets.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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23 Apr 2017, 15:05
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#25
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The evil stats guy
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 242
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Re: R72 shipstats
In terms of doing a really offensive set, maybe another round of ST?
Or we could actually try to get a full MT round going, been a long time since we had this. Might end up more defensive though
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24 Apr 2017, 07:37
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#26
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
I wonder whether a full mt set is possible now without being way too defensive. I guess you might be able to do it by having lots of ships with inconvenient t2 (where there is another ship covering it already) or really weak t2 (like where you have a ship t1 fi t2 de).
While st may be more in line with the times I can't say I like it as it always seems too formulaic. But then I have never liked ST and could use the excuse to skip a round.
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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27 Apr 2017, 19:46
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#27
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
too much naptarion for full mt stats different if there was more alliances going for the win at all costs
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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2 May 2017, 02:26
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#28
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: R72 shipstats
No news or updates on the stats front I take it?
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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2 May 2017, 04:39
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 318
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Re: R72 shipstats
So, question. I've never done stats, so I might be way off, but would it be possible to make a stat set like:
Ter: Heavy armor, expensive, fr/de/cr/bs only, no small ships
Cath: Light to Heavy, all ships have T3=all but with a low effective rate,
Xan: All light, cheap, fast. Fi/co/fr/de only, low armor to go with cheap price
Zik: steal only, heavy expensive ships like ter, t3=all like cath, but again low effective rate.
Etd: skips the round.
I like this idea (of course I would, right?) But have no idea how you all make stats, but maybe this general guideline is a good start, if not in time for round 72, perhaps a future round.
P.S. I accept that it may be a stupid idea and don't mind if you tell me to leave stats ideas to others
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*KoN* ~~ *NoS* ~~ *Fang* ~~ *Angels* ~~ *Urwins* ~~ *TheFallen* ~~ *Spore* ~~ *Ult Def Planet* ~~
Saver of Sad
Supreme Commander of The Spider Colony
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2 May 2017, 10:00
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#30
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: R72 shipstats
Alliances cannot survive without Fi/Co to deal with Fi/Co. Ter often suffers because their Fi/Co are not great. Losing that metaclass entirely will hurt a lot more. Losing Cr/Bs is much less harmful, though, Xan already often doesn't build any and performs fine.
T3 * is too strong, regardless of the effs.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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2 May 2017, 18:34
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#31
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: R72 shipstats
No t3=all for any ship ever again.
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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2 May 2017, 23:17
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 318
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese
No t3=all for any ship ever again.
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Lol okok, I get it, bad idea
__________________
*KoN* ~~ *NoS* ~~ *Fang* ~~ *Angels* ~~ *Urwins* ~~ *TheFallen* ~~ *Spore* ~~ *Ult Def Planet* ~~
Saver of Sad
Supreme Commander of The Spider Colony
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3 May 2017, 10:09
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#33
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: R72 shipstats
Stats allready been decided.
PM your local statsmafia member to get the link.
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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3 May 2017, 13:20
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#34
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
I'm clearly not a member
Local statsmafia member please enlighten us!
However given I have not been told or asked anything, and that there were two options put forward I presume mine have been rejected in favour of Paisley's. It would be nice to get some feedback as to the reasoning behind the decision.
Local statsmafia member please enlighten me!
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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4 May 2017, 09:30
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#35
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
im not a member of the stats mafia either it usually depends on the direcction that Jintoa wants to go.
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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4 May 2017, 11:29
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#36
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: R72 shipstats
Guess I'm also not a member, then.
In fact, it looks like the only person who's actually in the know is Butcher. And like a true mafioso, he wanted to show us he knew something, but didn't actually want to give up his position of privilege by sharing it with the rest of us.
I would just like to say (on behalf of all of us, I'm sure) we're mightily impressed down here.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 May 2017, 15:52
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#37
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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5 May 2017, 17:51
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#38
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Re: R72 shipstats
Ty for some of the changes. I guess these are being announced later as the stats to be. Are you likely to be making more changes? How worth commenting is it?
__________________
Proud to have been TGV!
aargh! died in Jenova! | idled in ROCK | disappointed in Audentes | been Roguish | p-p-previously a p-p-p3nguin
Ascendancy
Otterly an Otter.
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5 May 2017, 18:14
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#39
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
input is welcome
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
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5 May 2017, 18:28
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 79
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Re: R72 shipstats
Same init emp sux. Cath co looks op. Xan fi,fr look op damage wise. The only reasonable def vs all seems to be emp. Overall it's a complete opposite of this rounds stone, scissors, paper principle.
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5 May 2017, 21:02
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#41
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respect, unity, order
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 280
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Re: R72 shipstats
Oh ffs, we finally got rid of these insanely op emp effs and bam here they are again. U don't need 170% emp Eff to make emp worthwile
__________________
Together We Stand Divided We Fall
[Ğragons]
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5 May 2017, 21:12
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#42
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The brother of Spammer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Paisley - Scotland
Posts: 2,352
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Re: R72 shipstats
after speaking to jintoa emps will be nerfed
edit - t1 nerfed to 150ish%
__________________
Missing Subh (r15-r18)
Last edited by Paisley; 5 May 2017 at 21:39.
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5 May 2017, 21:17
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#43
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respect, unity, order
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 280
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Re: R72 shipstats
Also, the last times we had Xan roiding xan, this led to boring rounds that lost traction after 500 ticks. This set has 2 fleetclasses in Xan that do exactly this.
__________________
Together We Stand Divided We Fall
[Ğragons]
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5 May 2017, 21:53
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 32
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Re: R72 shipstats
I put my money on:
50-60% of the universe Xan - roiding eachother..
a Cath CO player #1 with Score > Value*2
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10 May 2017, 19:21
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 157
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Re: R72 shipstats
My suggestion on these:
Investor to CR T1 FR normal/cloak/ doesnt matter
Broker to CR t1 BS Emp
Shadow: Raise Init to 6
(You may have to adjust other inits to avoid same init firing but this change helps so much)
Barghest: Change from Emp
Still very a offensive set, but these changes help reign xan back in a little bit
__________________
BOOM
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10 May 2017, 19:43
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#46
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: R72 shipstats
What stops BS?
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10 May 2017, 21:41
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#47
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The evil stats guy
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 242
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Re: R72 shipstats
I made a first pass through paisley's set with my red marker. Biggest changes:
They are now a less offensive, but still offensive
Cat got a ship to prefire BS
ETD got a ship to prefire xan FR
Removed the zik De ship
Swapped a few T1/T2's around
AC/DC was balanced out (roughly)
Later this week i'll give them a 2nd pass over. Planned things:
ETD de pod cost doesn't match the other ETD de ships
Look at the SK's (too strong?)
Recheck the stats and even out the last kinks (fine tune ac/dc)
Nerf xan a tad
Give zik a small boost defensively
check out the zik fr fleet (too strong?)
Check emp
Does the locust t2 need a boost? (Weaker by design, but too weak?)
In the meantime all feedback is welcome
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10 May 2017, 23:41
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#48
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: R72 shipstats
My suggestions shouldnt be taken as advice what to fix or not fix, as i think your initial approach when "giving feedbacks" on stats this round is completely wrong.
But.
Yeah, nice that xan FR is nerphed, atleast now it does look like an option i would not opt for.
Vindicator defence planets will be very nice to have, atleast if they were to be run like this i would tell our support planets to go for ETD and only build vindicators.
Lets say you decide to go for xan, and only build FI and FR, 25% value in Phantom, 25 in banshee etc.. and the defence planet of whatever alliance put all their stuff into vindicators, how are you gonna land attacks? Xan FR is stopped dead i guess, so even if you 3 fleeted your stuff one defence planet would force a recall on your real attack fleet wether its FI or FR, before starting to add in the base fleet of the planet getting attacked/defended.
Im sure all your matrises look nice, but how would you predict this would play out in a real round?
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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11 May 2017, 05:43
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#49
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The evil stats guy
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 242
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Re: R72 shipstats
Zik fr prefires the vindicator, so no issue if you teamup. and it can still solo the 4 other races.
And i believe every race has a ship that fires at fi and fr. So faking with xan was always gonna be hard. You can still fake with pods though. It's something different. Xan doesn't always need to have the double fake advantage over everyone. Makes em too strong in most rounds.
Last edited by Jintao; 11 May 2017 at 05:51.
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11 May 2017, 05:54
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#50
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: R72 shipstats
Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher
My suggestions shouldnt be taken as advice what to fix or not fix, as i think your initial approach when "giving feedbacks" on stats this round is completely wrong.
But.
Yeah, nice that xan FR is nerphed, atleast now it does look like an option i would not opt for.
Vindicator defence planets will be very nice to have, atleast if they were to be run like this i would tell our support planets to go for ETD and only build vindicators.
Lets say you decide to go for xan, and only build FI and FR, 25% value in Phantom, 25 in banshee etc.. and the defence planet of whatever alliance put all their stuff into vindicators, how are you gonna land attacks? Xan FR is stopped dead i guess, so even if you 3 fleeted your stuff one defence planet would force a recall on your real attack fleet wether its FI or FR, before starting to add in the base fleet of the planet getting attacked/defended.
Im sure all your matrises look nice, but how would you predict this would play out in a real round?
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This could be said for any setup and def ship in the game so irrelevant point. If you have 50% value in FR and someone has 100% value in anti FR then high chance you ain't landing.
My suggestion would be that you take anti FI off the vindicator then it wouldn't be a complete can crusher. Fi could have a slight cost increase to hamper it in turn.
Paisley I like these stats
My only concern is Terran BS and how scarabs perform against it
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