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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 22:25   #51
bankeris
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by darkzidane View Post
Ter de not hitting fi an oversight? Means solo ter can be stopped with a fi fleet or 2 for 0 loss
yeah i noticed same, that Ter can target CO ships with 3 different ships, but only 1 against FI with FR(Gryphon). Not sure or it should be like this but seems not right. Send 10k fi and it's coverd always
But it's same with ETD FR ships they can't target "FI".
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 22:55   #52
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by darkzidane View Post
Ter de not hitting fi an oversight? Means solo ter can be stopped with a fi fleet or 2 for 0 loss
As designed: Ter DE, Zik Fr and Etd Fr all have this whole.
Cat De doesn't but they need to build 3 ships for it

Instead of a ship prefiring your anti-FI init you just can't fire back. But usually if defender pre-fires the attacker it's a blank recall anyway. Nomatter what return dmg you would do. Just a different take on it that we haven't used in a long time
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 23:11   #53
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Re: R71 shipstats

Insert obligatory "I don't like 0-loss defense" post here.
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Unread 26 Feb 2017, 23:37   #54
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Re: R71 shipstats

Someone light the batman sign, we need theodd, tiamata and more of the statsmafia regulars to bring the flamefest on the matter
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 05:07   #55
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Someone light the batman sign, we need theodd, tiamata and more of the statsmafia regulars to bring the flamefest on the matter
Well i think this is the ultimate proof the stats mafia doesn't own me/didn't bribe me
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 06:48   #56
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Re: R71 shipstats

I made the stats this way in the hope that it made alliances have diverse setups. I don't think any race stands out as great and I don't think any class is OP. Players will need to work together to defend and 3 pods could give some good faking options without the laziness of cloak. Ultimately if you just go one or the other you will struggle. Diversity is the key. It's going to be interesting what people come up with as play styles.

Etd got the extra ship to be in line with its 'salvager' description. It has more ships but none of those ships are better stand alone than its other race counterpart. Yet as a whole it's quite a viable option.

Also I like zero loss. Not having it makes rounds more boring imo.
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 12:04   #57
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Re: R71 shipstats

I would love to see at least 2 Cloak ships for ETD -> "Advanced Unit Scan" ? Or in this round we wont need this scan?

My opinion just looking at stats:

Cat
Cat will go CO attack mostly. Reasons:
1. You don't need team-up, so can go solo.
2. Your ships eta 7 defence, attack 8. So you are able to cover ally member against Fi/De/Fr, and also you have advantage +1 tick more to cover against Fr/De inc.
3. Against Co - Spiders - eta 7 defence.
4. Against Cr/Bs you will use Locust/Scrab eta 8, so you will have +1 more tick for defence.
5. Also Cat DE ships EMP first against Cat BS.

Even if Cat DE ships can target all ships, you are bad at flying eta. With De ship you wont be able to cover Fi/Co wave on ally, and to build ships for Ally defense you will need still same Fi/Co.

Ter
1. Here you have 2 choices Fi/BS - i still cant see DE attacking because you can't target Fi, and to find Cat with De attacking fleet will be hard probably. Cause you always must go with Cat.
2. Ter has hard Fi/Bs so both fine. Only one bad thing you wont be able to help alliance against Fi fleet. And your anti Fi init is so bad that even Ter with Fi will come for your rocks, Kraken will "rape" you.

Zik
Nothing to add here. I think it's perfect. Can't find reasons to not play with Fi/Fr/Cr.

Etd
Atm(without cloak ships) hope you will add few ships.
1. Fr is bad, can't target Fi. What it means, you always need to get Zik with you. Same as Ter De ships with Cat. But FR ships are fine for defense against De/Cr/Bs. Fi/Bs cool for attack.


ALL classes

I see best way to go main Fi/Co - you wont have problems with target ships. Also you can go solo at start, and you will have defense for you ally members. Especially when grounded. Also you can Fleet-catch Fi/Co/Fr/De. And you have plenty ships to choose what to def against Cr/Bs.

Fr/De attack needs more team-ups to make it great so it may work on later game stage. But for start i think its not cool to attack solo with hole in a ship[Ter/Etd]. I still think you could add T3[Fi] for Ter De and Etd Fr, it wont make them OP and and wont make them worse. Also you still will need fi/co to build.

Cr/Bs are really cool, but as always disadvantage is that you are slow in flying you need adtinial 2 ticks to make sure or galax def is/not. Also Fi/Co/Fr/De for defense require.

I bet 60% Universe ships will be Fi/Co.

as always sorry for my bad english :F
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 12:30   #58
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bankeris View Post
I would love to see at least 2 Cloak ships for ETD -> "Advanced Unit Scan" ? Or in this round we wont need this scan?

My opinion just looking at stats:

Cat
Cat will go CO attack mostly. Reasons:
1. You don't need team-up, so can go solo.
2. Your ships eta 7 defence, attack 8. So you are able to cover ally member against Fi/De/Fr, and also you have advantage +1 tick more to cover against Fr/De inc.
3. Against Co - Spiders - eta 7 defence.
4. Against Cr/Bs you will use Locust/Scrab eta 8, so you will have +1 more tick for defence.
5. Also Cat DE ships EMP first against Cat BS.

Even if Cat DE ships can target all ships, you are bad at flying eta. With De ship you wont be able to cover Fi/Co wave on ally, and to build ships for Ally defense you will need still same Fi/Co.

Ter
1. Here you have 2 choices Fi/BS - i still cant see DE attacking because you can't target Fi, and to find Cat with De attacking fleet will be hard probably. Cause you always must go with Cat.
2. Ter has hard Fi/Bs so both fine. Only one bad thing you wont be able to help alliance against Fi fleet. And your anti Fi init is so bad that even Ter with Fi will come for your rocks, Kraken will "rape" you.

Zik
Nothing to add here. I think it's perfect. Can't find reasons to not play with Fi/Fr/Cr.

Etd
Atm(without cloak ships) hope you will add few ships.
1. Fr is bad, can't target Fi. What it means, you always need to get Zik with you. Same as Ter De ships with Cat. But FR ships are fine for defense against De/Cr/Bs. Fi/Bs cool for attack.


ALL classes

I see best way to go main Fi/Co - you wont have problems with target ships. Also you can go solo at start, and you will have defense for you ally members. Especially when grounded. Also you can Fleet-catch Fi/Co/Fr/De. And you have plenty ships to choose what to def against Cr/Bs.

Fr/De attack needs more team-ups to make it great so it may work on later game stage. But for start i think its not cool to attack solo with hole in a ship[Ter/Etd]. I still think you could add T3[Fi] for Ter De and Etd Fr, it wont make them OP and and wont make them worse. Also you still will need fi/co to build.

Cr/Bs are really cool, but as always disadvantage is that you are slow in flying you need adtinial 2 ticks to make sure or galax def is/not. Also Fi/Co/Fr/De for defense require.

I bet 60% Universe ships will be Fi/Co.

as always sorry for my bad english :F
Your English is fine

Personally I like the idea of teamups and mixing fr/de is an interesting way to play to. As far as fi/Co the universe will naturally rotate towards it because of ETA there isn't a lot you can do about it except Nerf it into oblivion which is counter productive overall. As we have said all along it will be interesting what people do without cloaked ships. When forced to think about fakes and defence fleets which aren't 1 ship.
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 14:35   #59
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Your English is fine

Personally I like the idea of teamups and mixing fr/de is an interesting way to play to. As far as fi/Co the universe will naturally rotate towards it because of ETA there isn't a lot you can do about it except Nerf it into oblivion which is counter productive overall. As we have said all along it will be interesting what people do without cloaked ships. When forced to think about fakes and defence fleets which aren't 1 ship.
Agree on some point . Talking about fakes: why not make all ships fly same eta e.g - 9? no advantage of fast ships universe would split for different ships. What u think?
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 14:53   #60
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by bankeris View Post
Agree on some point . Talking about fakes: why not make all ships fly same eta e.g - 9? no advantage of fast ships universe would split for different ships. What u think?
Oh don't get me started on all the ways I would change interaction in battle, unfortunately we have to work with what there is and if you made everything ETA 9 then you lose the clever faking options and it presents the same problems that cloak creates with lazy play and little thought.
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Unread 27 Feb 2017, 17:22   #61
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
if you made everything ETA 9 then you lose the clever faking options and it presents the same problems that cloak creates with lazy play and little thought.
I don't really think sending 100k FI at the eta of FR can be described as 'clever'. Furthermore, with ships all appearing at the same eta, you'd still be making assumptions of your incs based firstly on number of units sent so this still lends itself to being able to mask the nature of your fleet. I'm not suggesting this would make the game better or that faking would therefore be more interesting, but it certainly doesn't eliminate faking.

Also, the problems with cloaking and the "lazy play" you refer to wouldn't be affected by this idea. Without cloak, you can't get away with just sending pods so no matter what you were faking with, you'd still be sending real numbers and you'd still have to follow up on your attacks. It's nothing like the idea of Xans just sending pods at people then forgetting about PA for three days.

It's alright Kaiba - just admit you don't like being roided by Xan pods.
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 12:13   #62
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by t3k View Post
I don't really think sending 100k FI at the eta of FR can be described as 'clever'. Furthermore, with ships all appearing at the same eta, you'd still be making assumptions of your incs based firstly on number of units sent so this still lends itself to being able to mask the nature of your fleet. I'm not suggesting this would make the game better or that faking would therefore be more interesting, but it certainly doesn't eliminate faking.

Also, the problems with cloaking and the "lazy play" you refer to wouldn't be affected by this idea. Without cloak, you can't get away with just sending pods so no matter what you were faking with, you'd still be sending real numbers and you'd still have to follow up on your attacks. It's nothing like the idea of Xans just sending pods at people then forgetting about PA for three days.

It's alright Kaiba - just admit you don't like being roided by Xan pods.
Who does?

I think your problem Kenny is you take a really aggressive approach towards things.

What I wanted was a set where effort was rewarded. Too many times we see people put countless hours into a round only for some 'troll' alliance chuck 30 xan cloaked fleets at them and all their hard work is undone. I think that this set will reward effort put in and will make it harder for people to coast into a good rank. Alliances will need to have proper Def fleets, players will have to build sensibly. Sticking 2 ships in .mydef and attacking with full value won't work this round. It should force more team play, which is a good thing for the community.

I'm happy with what I have made and jintao seems happy with them to. People will always moan but most feedback has been positive and that is good.
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 14:44   #63
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'm happy with what I have made and jintao seems happy with them to. People will always moan but most feedback has been positive and that is good.
I would still change 1 or 2 ships to cloak on ETD :P, not on pod class for eg. Dealer? Anyway this round stats were better than 2 previous at least for me so hope new round will be better from 3 previous my rounds. Nice work, you asked feedback we launched our thoughts
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 14:55   #64
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bankeris View Post
I would still change 1 or 2 ships to cloak on ETD :P, not on pod class for eg. Dealer? Anyway this round stats were better than 2 previous at least for me so hope new round will be better from 3 previous my rounds. Nice work, you asked feedback we launched our thoughts
Unfortunately these are cloak free no xan stats. So no cloaked ships will be added anywhere. I'm sure you will adapt
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 14:58   #65
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Re: R71 shipstats

I do think that xan free for 1 round will be a nice change of senary but bring back xan the round after
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 16:15   #66
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I do think that xan free for 1 round will be a nice change of senary but bring back xan the round after
This is only meant to be a round 1 thing! This is not an anti Xan conspiracy to remove them from he universe forever
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 16:20   #67
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I do think that xan free for 1 round will be a nice change of senary but bring back xan the round after
Oh ofc, it's an experiment as well as something fun to try. Maybe someone can make a cat free round and try it or something extra mad like no fi/Co pods
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 16:27   #68
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Oh ofc, it's an experiment as well as something fun to try. Maybe someone can make a cat free round and try it or something extra mad like no fi/Co pods
I know what paisley wants. A good old style 0 loss zik round
Would definaltely be fun if a few new constraints would be put in place
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 18:41   #69
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Re: R71 shipstats

PA would explode itself without emp.
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Unread 28 Feb 2017, 20:25   #70
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
I know what paisley wants. A good old style 0 loss zik round
Would definaltely be fun if a few new constraints would be put in place
a r14 rehash stats would be my dream stats
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 10:16   #71
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Re: R71 shipstats

There's quite a few problems I have with the set, here's a few bigger ones straight up.

A) There's 1,5 ships to cover DE incs "easily" with - Rangers and ingal/PL Wyvern.
B) There's 2 ships to cover FR incs "easily" with - Pegasus (a lot of pegs) and ingal/PL Wyvern/Mara.
C) FICO incs should be selfcovered against 1-2 man incs by everyone but terrans against FI.
D) CRBS WILL cause a mess untill about tick 500, when it comes obsolete as there's enough flak everywhere (plenty of options to cover with).
E) There's a shitton of steal options, giving both ZIK and ETD quite a huge advantage, especially in defense. And yes, pretty much every steal ship is worth it as a def ship thanks to high as fck steal damage.
F) Marauder damage is off the chart, like way off. (Basically making ZIK just that much better than any other race that it's the go-to race for every "pro"). Only holes you have is DE and CR, which the ETD you BPd to attack with covers. (with the rangers you stole from "lucky" defs).
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 10:35   #72
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Re: R71 shipstats

Ter already have 2 other ships that target DE and are both in their attack class. Why would they build phoenix's?

I hate seeing pointless ships and this one has gotta take the cake..

-lowest armor ive ever seen on a ter ship (they are suppose to be all about the high armor)
-lowest armor out of all races ships
-poor damage output
-lowest damage output of all races ships
-useless init

Just delete the ship from the list please...

(edit grammar)
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 12:18   #73
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by badass View Post
Ter already have 2 other ships that target DE and are both in their attack class. Why would they build phoenix's?

I hate seeing pointless ships and this one has gotta take the cake..

-lowest armor ive ever seen on a ter ship (they are suppose to be all about the high armor)
-lowest armor out of all races ships
-poor damage output
-lowest damage output of all races ships
-useless init

Just delete the ship from the list please...

(edit grammar)
This is something Jinrao needs to address

It was originally:

T1 FI T2 FR A/C 414 D/C 500

But jintao made it a steal ship and screwed it. Personally I think it was fine originally but he has a balancing fetish.

Jintao please put it back as it was!!!!
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 15:40   #74
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
balancing fetish
Are you saying (too much?) balance is bad?
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 17:54   #75
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Re: R71 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by badass View Post
Ter already have 2 other ships that target DE and are both in their attack class. Why would they build phoenix's?

I hate seeing pointless ships and this one has gotta take the cake..

-lowest armor ive ever seen on a ter ship (they are suppose to be all about the high armor)
-lowest armor out of all races ships
-poor damage output
-lowest damage output of all races ships
-useless init

Just delete the ship from the list please...

(edit grammar)
i get your point. It definately underperformes. I'm open to suggestions, but it can't target FI. Option to make it target fr? Or better to remove it?
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 18:47   #76
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Are you saying (too much?) balance is bad?
Yes, we need messy things sometimes. Your 'amazing' Dr 50 stats that everyone chucks their load over are proper messy and unbalanced. And they were/are fun to play.
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 18:50   #77
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Re: R71 shipstats

Actually I have now noticed even more targeting changes from the original. This isn't my set anymore. Take my name off them please. You wrecked them with your tweaking
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 20:02   #78
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Jintao View Post
i get your point. It definately underperformes. I'm open to suggestions, but it can't target FI. Option to make it target fr? Or better to remove it?
I won't pretend I know how to balance the stats. If the phoenix needs to remain useless for proper balance than just delete it. That way any new players wont make the mistake of building it...
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Unread 6 Mar 2017, 20:06   #79
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Yes, we need messy things sometimes.
Balanced does not mean everything is exactly as strong as everything else. Rock-paper-scissors is balanced, and you don't get more messy than the pure randomness of RPS.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 8 Mar 2017 at 16:22. Reason: typo
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Unread 8 Mar 2017, 13:08   #80
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Re: R71 shipstats

this ain't rock-paper-scrissors set, this is ZIK-paper-paper set.
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Unread 8 Mar 2017, 21:23   #81
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Re: R71 shipstats

Based on the feedback i received i descided on the following changes:
  • Widow -1 init
  • Vendor -1 init
  • Beetle +3 E/R
  • Viper +3 E/R
  • Locust +3 E/R
  • Scarab +3 E/R
  • Tarantula +2 guns
  • Tarantula +1 E/R
  • Tarantula +146 cost
  • Thief: +2 dmg
  • Ranger -1 dmg
  • Marauder +3 dmg
  • Phoenix +6 armor
  • Phoenix targets Fi T1

This should remove the last few inbalances in the set. The only try-out change is the phoenix. It targets FI again, but isn't as good as it's FR counterpart. A tradeoff for a faster ETA. Opinions?

If i missed something, 48 hours left untill signups open and stats are final
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Unread 9 Mar 2017, 09:14   #82
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Re: R71 shipstats

Based on the changes Jintao has made:

- Widow change did basically nothing.
- Vendor slightly better, but not enough to make FI worth it.
- Cath CO didn't need any more E/R, was already pretty good for a bad class.
- IF Cath really needed more E/R, it was pods, not any other ship.
- Tara still is rather crap, now just more expensive crap.
- Steal damages were already frigging high, adding more makes sense?
- Ranger was pretty much the only good single def ship against DE, now it's worse? All other equal or lower eta ships are either emp or steal. (And only one higher eta ship in attack class does damage either, Mantis is questionable if it should even exist).
- Marauder damage was too high to start with, you added more?
- Phoenix targeting FI makes it somewhat worth it actually. I would've added like +1 damage and it'd be decent def ship.

EDIT:
Forgot to mention that ETD DE with "lucky" pods now seems very tempting with TER/CATH. Luckily we the community aren't that disturbed by stolen pods...
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Last edited by NoXiouS; 9 Mar 2017 at 09:22. Reason: as mentioned in post
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Unread 10 Mar 2017, 15:07   #83
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Re: R71 shipstats

1. Zero loss defense is really bad for the state of the game
2. Same init ships including emp make stats even more defensive
3. Having a lot of ships that are emp fodder isn't a good idea
4. Forcing huge team ups with the stats when we already need big waves to land because of the Ally fleet is bad for the game



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Unread 10 Mar 2017, 17:20   #84
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Re: R71 shipstats

Add "5. defense/support planets will thrive with these stats" and have a summary of why these stats will be even worse than last round's.

Last edited by Patrikc; 10 Mar 2017 at 17:27.
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Unread 11 Mar 2017, 02:34   #85
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Re: R71 shipstats

Completely agree.


RIP R71
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Unread 11 Mar 2017, 08:49   #86
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Re: R71 shipstats

Horrific...
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Unread 11 Mar 2017, 09:27   #87
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Re: R71 shipstats

I ran quite a few calcs yesterday (being friday the 10th), pretty much no reasonable teamups of 2 could land anything, quite easily covered with equal or lower value (with the right ships ofc). So... teamups of at least 3 required, with AFs make it like teamups of 4-5 to land a single planet with somewhat reasonable shipbuild (~60% attack value / 40% def value), comparing equal value planets here. When considering the usual universe setup, there's max 2-3 alliances that will outvalue all others, hence being rather immune to incs just by stats...
Add into that the more expensive initing and the caps will be even higher this round than any round before (the "lower tier" alliances that are forced to init to try to keep up will get rekt now). Horrible set, even worse with the changes.
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Unread 11 Mar 2017, 09:39   #88
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Re: R71 shipstats

There was nothing wrong with the original set. There was far more holes that allowed 2 man and solo lands. You haven't seen the original because it's sitting on my Google Drive spreadsheet.

The changes made have been poor, this constant need to 'balance' or plug holes has with each change made it harder to land.

Agreed that once you add in even more knee jerk and unnecessary game changes from PA team it has had an overall detrimental effect to them but these changes weren't known when I started making them.

What started off as a fun project to make a cloak free set has turned into some hideous uber defensive set which unfortunately I had hardly any say on any of them.

Jintao I'm most dissapointed after an at length discussion about certain ships with certain names fulfilling certain roles that you felt the need to completely go against this, which feels like s proper dig in the ribs to a set my name is on.
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Unread 11 Mar 2017, 15:02   #89
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
There was nothing wrong with the original set. There was far more holes that allowed 2 man and solo lands.
More holes doesn't equate to more lands. This works early on, and on less organized alliances perhaps, but when attacking higher up, it just means they cover it with fewer fleets.
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Unread 11 Mar 2017, 15:11   #90
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
More holes doesn't equate to more lands. This works early on, and on less organized alliances perhaps, but when attacking higher up, it just means they cover it with fewer fleets.
More options is not a bad thing. I firmly believe my original targeting would have been fairer over a whole round and left all 4 races and every metaclass as viable. There must be like 8-9 t1 changes by Jintao and same on t2. It's very frustrating cos this is now very much his set. He has gone against what I wanted to create
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Unread 17 Mar 2017, 11:33   #91
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Re: R71 shipstats

kaiba: I've not seen your original set and Jintaos changes actually weren't that drastic, it's more the combination with the rule changes that made it such horrible it is now.
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Unread 17 Mar 2017, 12:09   #92
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Re: R71 shipstats

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
kaiba: I've not seen your original set and Jintaos changes actually weren't that drastic, it's more the combination with the rule changes that made it such horrible it is now.
It's the changes that he made before he put them into the game that were the problem. Since then he has just faffed and come back round to the same end.

There is no changes that affect the ships and combat as far as I saw. Cheap dists/no covop steals and higher init costs is something else in the game, it shouldn't overly affect what goes on in battle
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Unread 18 Mar 2017, 18:58   #93
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Re: R71 shipstats

These stats are interesting, still wish xan was here this round, but as they say change is always a good thing
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