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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:36   #101
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by Kargool
Earlier I suggested that the PA-Team should put forward a survey which could give them some relevant data on how the common player perceive planetarion, yet again this was ignored, as Kal and others apparently sees that they are the only ones that can understand what a Planetarion player wants and needs. Totally bogus claim Kal, there are people with educations like graphics designers, programming coders, marketing advisor's and average joe internet player playing Planetarion, yet you choose to ignore the fact that they are able to have a good reason behind their opinions about the game.
I haven't seen survey suggestion - I think its an excellent idea.
Also we have people with most of the skills you describe in the team or available to us. What we really lack is a professional game designer.

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Originally Posted by kargool
There are more important issues to attend to than to mess up the game that brought so much good positive vibes last round. I wish the PA team could have understood and known that but yet again we see how they work and how they fail to put their ears to the ground to listen to what the community has to say. A game that constantly changes loses touch with the players playing it. In the end they will lose their interest.
I agree that a game that constantly changes in a dramatic way is bad. However, I'd suggest that msot of the changes for R22 are evolutionary rather than revolutionary in the grand scheme of things. That said, in the past I have suggested that we should have major and minor rounds. A minor round would have bug fixes, tweaks etc. from the last round and a major round would have the new features. That would give people time to get used to something before we then changed it and also give us more development time.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 11:48   #102
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by Kal
I actually really like the idea of assigning factories to an order, I think its pretty neat, but unfortunatly I highly doubt anything like that would be possible given the timescales.
Then actually find a way to get it done. Disable shipbuilding for the first 48 ticks if necessary. This solves all your problems at a stroke, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:02   #103
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

- limit stock piles to 30mill (approx i got no clue what that will build nowadays) that way people with dedicated attack fleets can still get through, whilst little shitty inc can be stopped. Any res after this simply dissapears or percentage could go to gal fund/ally

- Do away with this new production lark..if you want though maybe try a eta bonus for the more factorys you own say limit it to say half a eta per factory so with 10 factorys you would get -5 eta on your production times. Sort of like how sec / finance centres work. Just use same code from r21.. i know it is similar to whats happening at the mo but factory "capacities" **** around completely with eta's on ship production.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:02   #104
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Then actually find a way to get it done. Disable shipbuilding for the first 48 ticks if necessary. This solves all your problems at a stroke, don't be so quick to dismiss it.
It seems I may have been to quick to dismiss it. We will have a go at doing it, but no promises.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:18   #105
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by Kal
It seems I may have been to quick to dismiss it. We will have a go at doing it, but no promises.
If it is do-able, can we at least test it in a beta again before round start, even if that means putting round start back by a week?
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:28   #106
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by Judge
If it is do-able, can we at least test it in a beta again before round start, even if that means putting round start back by a week?
I'd assume it would at leats get tested for bugs etc. befoe its put on the game server!

I think the basic implementation is that when you make a ship order, by default no factories are assigned. You can then assign or unassign factories at will. I'd also assume that factories cannot be assigned to multiple orders (otherwise we'd still have the current problems).

One bit that will need to be thought about is:

When a factory is destroyed, which order will it be removed from.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:33   #107
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I'd assume it would at leats get tested for bugs etc. befoe its put on the game server!

I think the basic implementation is that when you make a ship order, by default no factories are assigned. You can then assign or unassign factories at will. I'd also assume that factories cannot be assigned to multiple orders (otherwise we'd still have the current problems).

One bit that will need to be thought about is:

When a factory is destroyed, which order will it be removed from.
Ok fair enough,

as for what happens to a current order when a factory is destroyed? I have no idea, as I am not even sure it has been answered with the current (beta) set up.

I did ask this question a few times, but no one came back with an answer?

I also asked what would happen if all of a particular factory type were destroyed (unlikely now with the changes to SK's) but if a planet only has 4 light factories, gets one hit by cov opps and is unlucky enough to lose the other 3 to an sk attack what happens to ship orders in the production queue?
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:44   #108
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

If a factory gets destroyed, you can no longer change the orders in the production queue that were affected by that factory. The destruction of a relevant factory should crystalise the relevant orders, making them fixed (as per r21 and previous).
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:46   #109
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
One of the reasons I don't quite like your idea is that I quite like the idea of using covert ops, or SKs to mess around with people's ability to self defend and generally annoy them. While I agree its not pleasant to be on the receiving end, plenty of the game isn't pleasent - it is meant to be a war game.
There's a big difference between minor annoyances (nerfed SKs under the old system) and issues that will frustrate players so much that they leave the game (see Round 10).


The proposed system is in severe danger of turning into the latter.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 12:50   #110
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by furball
If a factory gets destroyed, you can no longer change the orders in the production queue that were affected by that factory. The destruction of a relevant factory should crystalise the relevant orders, making them fixed (as per r21 and previous).

In round 21 i lost all my factories on several occasions, yes I could not order more ships but the current orders progressed as normal arriving on time etc...


I suspect that with the current set up the ships in production will be frozen there untill the factory type is replaced but this has yet to be answered?
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 13:03   #111
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
I suspect that with the current set up the ships in production will be frozen there untill the factory type is replaced but this has yet to be answered?
if you loose all factories of the type, the production won't progress until at least 1 factory is rebuilt.
that being said, due to loosing the factories you also have 0 in factory cost (that little extra bit on the order shown behind the + sign).
so if the amount of production already done is above the required amount when the factories are lost your order will be completed, so loosing your factories isn't a "total loss", though still can be quite bad.

as for assigning factories to the order, that was one of the ways i considered when initially coding the production system, i don't remember the exact reason for settling on how it is now, but it's somewhat related to how combat is done with damage being divided over all targets.

now the assigning of factories to an order is simple in itself, question is how to remove destroyed factories, and yes they should be removed from the orders.
just to keep it simple in terms of coding and in terms of understanding it for the players i would suggest that the destroyed factory is deducted from the order containing the most factories of that type (if that order in itself doesn't have enough factories to remove, it grabs the next and removes from that).
reason for that is that it will most likely only affect 1 order (in some cases it might affect more ofc depending on factories in each order and factory loss).
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 13:08   #112
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
One bit that will need to be thought about is:

When a factory is destroyed, which order will it be removed from.

One way to implement this is to by default have the idle factories targetted first, and if there are no idle factories, the largest assigned factory/production order is affected.

If it is the case that the factories as 50/50 or 33/33/33% in use then make it so it is always the last order in the production queue that is affected.

There is a slight down side to this, a planet could assign the majority of factories to a small order, whilst protecting an important order from the effects of sk's.

But that is a tactical decision rather than a random choice.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 13:10   #113
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus
if you loose all factories of the type, the production won't progress until at least 1 factory is rebuilt.
that being said, due to loosing the factories you also have 0 in factory cost (that little extra bit on the order shown behind the + sign).
so if the amount of production already done is above the required amount when the factories are lost your order will be completed, so loosing your factories isn't a "total loss", though still can be quite bad.

as for assigning factories to the order, that was one of the ways i considered when initially coding the production system, i don't remember the exact reason for settling on how it is now, but it's somewhat related to how combat is done with damage being divided over all targets.

now the assigning of factories to an order is simple in itself, question is how to remove destroyed factories, and yes they should be removed from the orders.
just to keep it simple in terms of coding and in terms of understanding it for the players i would suggest that the destroyed factory is deducted from the order containing the most factories of that type (if that order in itself doesn't have enough factories to remove, it grabs the next and removes from that).
reason for that is that it will most likely only affect 1 order (in some cases it might affect more ofc depending on factories in each order and factory loss).
LOL

i was typing a similar suggestion as you were placing this reply.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 13:40   #114
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkee
- limit stock piles to 30mill (approx i got no clue what that will build nowadays) that way people with dedicated attack fleets can still get through, whilst little shitty inc can be stopped. Any res after this simply dissapears or percentage could go to gal fund/ally
So this is what it's all about. Nerf other peoples stockpiles so that XP fleets can get through. Because let's face it, the top 200 people with their huge stockpiles stagnate the round for the rest of the players. Last time i checked, XP was related to a bravery factor.

Or alternatively, you could all grow some balls and hit a target once, force him to spend his resources, and hit him again the next night knowing that this time he won't be able to produce his way out of incs.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 14:02   #115
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Originally Posted by Gio2k
Or alternatively, you could all grow some balls and hit a target once, force him to spend his resources, and hit him again the next night knowing that this time he won't be able to produce his way out of incs.

Dit this last round, just send in your troops, you know you will have to recall, cause they will spend the res. But its very annoying for those planets to build the ships. You will get some nice mails for it aswell
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 14:05   #116
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Or alternatively, you could all grow some balls and hit a target once, force him to spend his resources, and hit him again the next night knowing that this time he won't be able to produce his way out of incs.
This relies a lot on a certain element of teamplay really. Largely if someone has spent to cover you he'll have those ships again the next night so you'll need even more of whatever fleet you were sending to be able to roid him. However you can often hand the target over to a friend playing a different race. I did this a few times last round when trying to roid ziks as an etd, if I forced them to spend on pirates I'd hand him off to one of the xans. This, of course, is something that rewards teamplay ahead of individual play in the classic "good play is its own reward" sense.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 14:32   #117
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walldo
Dit this last round, just send in your troops, you know you will have to recall, cause they will spend the res. But its very annoying for those planets to build the ships. You will get some nice mails for it aswell
From all the people with stockpiles i launched at, i probably had to recall about 1/4 of the times. The rest didn't bother covering one wave knowing that they would be open to several waves the next day if they spent their stockpile. A stockpile per se is just an intimidation factor, and if people had the courage, they would find that it's not very difficult to land on someone with a stockpile.
The only 'unfair' thing about stockpiling would be that it gives you a way to 'hide' your real value and hit smaller targets. That could be fixed as simply as calculating resources unspent in the same way that resources spent on ships. ie: divide it by the same factor, and not by 150 in the case of stockpiled resources and 100 in the case of ship resources.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 14:40   #118
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Most people I knew would spend unless it was a daft situation. There's obviously no value to spending if you're getting roided in 3 ticks anyways but, just for example, not once did I not spend if I had uncovered incs. Most of the big ascendancy planets worked fairly similarly.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 14:48   #119
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

What is this antistockpile train everyone joins?
If i decide i want to login 3-5 times in a round, then spend my resources a day or so before round ends, its up to me.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 15:06   #120
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Most people I knew would spend unless it was a daft situation. There's obviously no value to spending if you're getting roided in 3 ticks anyways but, just for example, not once did I not spend if I had uncovered incs. Most of the big ascendancy planets worked fairly similarly.
That depends on the incomings you get. I hit xans and ziks with low anti-fr, and although their stockpiles allowed them to self cover or inflict enough damage for me to recall, it would not allow them to do so without losing a significant part of their fleet in the battle, before firing at me. Also if you have to spend your whole stockpile on defense ships to cover one wave (team up) today, knowing that tomorrow you would be wide open to other attacks, i doubt you would spend.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 15:21   #121
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
That depends on the incomings you get. I hit xans and ziks with low anti-fr, and although their stockpiles allowed them to self cover or inflict enough damage for me to recall, it would not allow them to do so without losing a significant part of their fleet in the battle, before firing at me. Also if you have to spend your whole stockpile on defense ships to cover one wave (team up) today, knowing that tomorrow you would be wide open to other attacks, i doubt you would spend.
I attacked big ETD's whole round, with my fi fleet. if I landed 1 out of 5 times it was ok. but if I landed, I stole 500 roids, and got some nice xp out of it. but those 4 times, I alwaus giggled when to had to spend alot of res.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:23   #122
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

So if I understood it correctly it is now normal having to wait about a day for your ships to arrive. If I wanted more realism I would have joined the army, this a warGAME,ffs.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:29   #123
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
So if I understood it correctly it is now normal having to wait about a day for your ships to arrive. If I wanted more realism I would have joined the army, this a warGAME,ffs.
No, you haven't.

IF you have several million resources in an order of one factory type, and only one factory of that type and no population on production, it might take a day (or slightly longer).

It's not too difficult, especially earlier on in the game, to spend a bit more time making factories and keeping your ETA for ships down to times similar to (or faster than) previous ordering times. As time goes on, it gets harder to keep the times down - depending on the value and composition of your orders.


Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Don't be smart furball.

I had really intended to play, but after playing beta and seeing how pateam reacts when people tell them how bad this production thing is, Im very unsure If I actually want to play again.
We've altered and improved it several times. We could easily have stuck with the original design, which I assume is what you preferred?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
To summarise this thread.

Idea almost universally agreed to be "very shit"

Uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut

Other alternatives are available.

These alternatives are simpler
Actually, if you count the people it seems to be pretty equal. Those that are making more posts are generally the ones that disagree.
I still don't get why this is seen to be aimed at stockpiling - some people have mentioned how it actually makes stockpiling far easier.

The main issue seems to be the issue over complexity in predicting when productions will be finished, which is being discussed in the thread.

I do have to admit that taking a different approach in introducing these new features (especially related to production) would probably have been more beneficial, and stopped the whole "OMG NEW EVIL FEATURE ROUND 22 RUINED I QUIT" response, which many people have decided upon without playing or fully understanding the new feature(s), due to word of mouth.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:41   #124
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Its utter wank, first you make it noobfriendly, then you make it so things take even longer without adding ticks.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:42   #125
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
No, you haven't.

IF you have several million resources in an order of one factory type, and only one factory of that type and no population on production, it might take a day (or slightly longer).

It's perfectly easy, especially earlier on in the game, to spend a bit more time making factories and keeping your ETA for ships down to times similar to (or faster than) previous ordering times. As time goes on, it gets harder to keep the times down - depending on the value and composition of your orders.
A game that's causing me a headache to keep track of all the variables, now that's a first. Is it really necessary to make things so complicated? I think self-cover build speed should still be possible, even for less 'experienced' players. Previous rounds have tought me that you can't always rely on galmates, even in top notch galaxies. The majority of players won't even be playing in top notch galaxies, so they should be able to rely on their own production capacity. If I do understand you correctly you're taking that away from players.

Sounds like a real overkill solution to prevent stockpilling. The warehouses/silo's solution sounds betten then.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:47   #126
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
Sounds like a real overkill solution to prevent stockpilling. The warehouses/silo's solution sounds betten then.
Have you read any of my posts? any of them? at all?
which part of "this was never, ever, aimed at stock piling" is the difficult part?
Which part of the post by Gerbie on the previous thread mentioning how it's actually easier to follow through the "stockpile" motive with these new features did you not understand?

Do you play any other games? CS? Diablo? Anything? Do you understand all the maths behind that - the way that it calcuates skill points, combat damages, anything? Why does Planetarion have to be different?

If you checked, the minimum production time, with population and government bonuses, is ~2-3 ticks. Is that sufficient for self-cover time?

Edit: I apologise, but really....
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:48   #127
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Rip Planetarion, the wargame.
LONG LIVE PLANETARION, THE RL SPACE SIMULATOR!
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:50   #128
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Have you read any of my posts? any of them? at all?
which part of "this was never, ever, aimed at stock piling" is the difficult part?
Which part of the post by Gerbie on the previous thread mentioning how it's actually easier to follow through the "stockpile" motive with these new features did you not understand?

Do you play any other games? CS? Diablo? Anything? Do you understand all the maths behind that - the way that it calcuates skill points, combat damages, anything? Why does Planetarion have to be different?

If you checked, the minimum production time, with population and government bonuses, is ~2-3 ticks. Is that sufficient for self-cover time?

Edit: I apologise, but really....
I actually did read all the posts. I read it between the lines. Why on earth would you otherwise make such a big chance after a donations victory? You only had edit your engineerpreferances, much easier then then this government mubo jumbo. Don't get me wrong I like the governments add-on. But this is taking it to far. YOu ought to keep in mind Planetarion is a game, not a lifestyle.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:51   #129
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wandows
I guess he is talking about the option of continiously adding ships to existing orders, basicly stopping them from ever being completed untill you want them to be completed. That way you can have a 'huge' stock on order without anyone ever knowing. Although i doubt its easier than 'conventional' stockpiling (since it requires a fair amount of activity to stop the orders from completing), it certainly is a interesting and attractive (potentially damaging) option.
It doesn't require much activity. Simply make a dozen orders of 1 ship, then add an order where you continuously add your stockpile. By cancelling the 1 ship orders and raising population assigned to production the stockpile suddenly is produced in a few ticks rather than a few hundred (you can take a vacation in between if you want to).
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:55   #130
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

The productions changes had nothing to do with a donations victory and have been in the process of being coded for months - in fact, the changes to population etc last round were a necessary precursor to this system.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 19:55   #131
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
I actually did read all the posts. I read it between the lines. Why on earth would you otherwise make such a big chance after a donations victory? You only had edit your engineerpreferances, much easier then then this government mubo jumbo. Don't get me wrong I like the governments add-on. But this is taking it to far. YOu ought to keep in mind Planetarion is a game, not a lifestyle.
Er, donations != stockpiling.
Anyone being 'donated to win' could do so using this format- he'd just make sure he had enough factories to build all his ships, or just wait a bit longer.
Stockpiling is the idea of keeping resources instead of ships to keep your value and therefore score LOWER so that you can hit more players and get more XP / roid than you would with a higher value / score.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 21:12   #132
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
It doesn't require much activity. Simply make a dozen orders of 1 ship, then add an order where you continuously add your stockpile. By cancelling the 1 ship orders and raising population assigned to production the stockpile suddenly is produced in a few ticks rather than a few hundred (you can take a vacation in between if you want to).
This really doesn't work so well due to the fact that the more res involved in the order the higher the percentage of factory output is allocated to it. As such if you have 10+ small orders with one big one the one big one that you add res to will still be done in much faster time.

It is possible to keep an order ongoing pretty much constantly, with res being added to it to stop it coming out of production, but it requires pretty much 24/7 maintenence to ensure that it doesn't come out early. If you leave a large amount of ticks before it comes out then theirs no guarantee that it will be out in time when you need it, and a shorter production time requires you to add to it every few ticks. Theirs also the tedency atm for orders to come out ticks earlier than than they say they should which makes it unworkable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Stockpiling is the idea of keeping resources instead of ships to keep your value and therefore score LOWER so that you can hit more players and get more XP / roid than you would with a higher value / score.).
errr... thats one reason to stockpile, but i think you'll find that the most common reason is to be able to selfcover incs, especially in the case of ziks/cats and etd's last round.

The new system doesn't make stockpiling impossible for single orders, but if you attempted to have multiple orders coming out on different ticks to selfcover then their is no way of knowing when they'd come out due to the fact that secondary orders effect the firsts production time and then the reallocation of factory's after one is produced.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 21:15   #133
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clogg
I actually did read all the posts. I read it between the lines. Why on earth would you otherwise make such a big chance after a donations victory? You only had edit your engineerpreferances, much easier then then this government mubo jumbo. Don't get me wrong I like the governments add-on. But this is taking it to far. YOu ought to keep in mind Planetarion is a game, not a lifestyle.
R22 design was finished and largly coded before the end of the round. Yes a few tweaks might get made based on how a round ended, but the decisions have largly already been made.

Production moved to a PU system becuase research and construction moved to similar systems. It was an all or nothing decision. We allways knew that production would be the most difficult, however, I'm confident that by the time ship production starts we will have a decent system in place - BUT it will require time for people to get used to it.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 21:57   #134
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
R22 design was finished and largly coded before the end of the round. Yes a few tweaks might get made based on how a round ended, but the decisions have largly already been made.

Production moved to a PU system becuase research and construction moved to similar systems. It was an all or nothing decision. We allways knew that production would be the most difficult, however, I'm confident that by the time ship production starts we will have a decent system in place - BUT it will require time for people to get used to it.
I discussed this with Apoco earlier today on IRC. But especially if you knew it months before, why just introduce it now? You could have informed to players sooner to get less of a culture shock. As it is now, your market approach sucks big time. I suggest some marketing courses in the near future. Because this whole new production system might be interesting, but really marketed poorly.

I also came to an agreement with Apoco, that I will see the new system in action first before I will comment/whine/demonise (about) it again.
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 22:00   #135
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

So what was the point behind complicating such a basic thing as producing ships?
And the concept of stockpiling is easy, i keep a good amount of resources unspent to cover myself in the more or less likely event that i get incomings and my alliance can't cover me. It also allows me to time my ship production to arrive at the same time as my incoming lands, giving me higher chances to steal or kill enemy ships.
I don't want to wake up one night at 3 am in the morning seeing uncovered incomings, and calculating how many ships can i build in time, if it's enough to self cover, or just how many can i build so that they come out of production exactly when my attacker lands. And then i discover that i already had ships for an attack in production, which now won't be arriving on the expected tick, because i was forced to build ships to cover one of my waves.
And last time i checked, CS and Diablo were REAL TIME games with 3d graphics and interaction. If i wanted to play some thing like that, make no mistake, i wouldn't be playing PA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
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Unread 18 Jun 2007, 22:33   #136
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Stockpiling is the idea of keeping resources instead of ships to keep your value and therefore score LOWER so that you can hit more players and get more XP / roid than you would with a higher value / score.
Value = (Resources + Fleet value) / 100

Voila. But i guess that would be too simple.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 02:07   #137
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 02:49   #138
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

This solution would be far too simple!

We need to overcomplicate things instead, to make Planetarion more 'dynamic' and 'unpredictable'.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 06:41   #139
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

What really annoys me is that this kind of change wasn't public knowledge until now (i.e. not announced before its implementation). I'd like to know a couple of things: 1) who suggested this kind of change and when, 2) who decided that this was good for the game and showed the green light, 3) why the hell there aren't some kind of request for comments for changes this big?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Do you play any other games? CS? Diablo? Anything? Do you understand all the maths behind that - the way that it calcuates skill points, combat damages, anything? Why does Planetarion have to be different?
The choices in PA rely on knowing. You NEED to know the production time of your target, you NEED to know how many ships the target can build. PA itself doesn't offer much tools for predicting several outcomes of game mechanics but the community has its external tools. People do know for example in many role playing games how their skill points etc. are calculated and then max out based on that knowledge. No matter how simple or complicated calculations there are, someone will always be asking how its done. Making something more complicated 'because you don't have to know how its done' is an awful excuse.

edit: please, at least provide an easy to use tool for predicting production times that doesn't require yet another external tool.

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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 06:56   #140
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
The issue here is not "lets not change the game", the issue is "lets not make a simple concept of the game unnecessarily complex"
Lokken hit the nail on the head here.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 08:18   #141
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

in the beta i told Cin there would be posts like this and he denied it -
=== people angry at the seemingly unneccesary changes when DONATIONS was the problem, not production.
=== people wondering why if it's not broke, why fix it?
=== people angry about being unable to self-cover (which is a very important part of the game) without 'wasting' constructions on multiple factories.
=== and those arguing that they have made production unnecessarily complex.

I suggested something along the lines of each factory can only have x amount (e.g. 10k value) in production at any one time - so if you wanna build in bulk you can - it's simple and easy and you can work it out in your head.

But..... he got all defensive and questioned why i was even in the beta and deleted my posts and the thread questioning production times.

....PATeam knows best I guess!
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 08:35   #142
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
It was an all or nothing decision.
Why? Why do construction, research and production have to use the same system? After all, they are three different features of the game.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 09:01   #143
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

(I've been thinking this over for a couple of days, putting the whole thing into RL perspectives and how it would be handled )

Ok let me put this current ship production into a RL scenario. (which is looking to be what its going towards)

Your a car dealership.

You order 1000 new cars of various types , the factory gets on with the order.

You then order 600 more of 1 type due to your boffins telling you there will be more demand because of an advertising campaign by the producers.

The producers tell you that to do both there will be an extra 3 days on the delivery on the 1st order, and they give you a delivery date for the 2nd order.

The factories get working, order 1 is completed by the 2nd deadline.

Now the factory workers, continue to build the 2nd order, because there is less in it, they complete it earlier.

The factory workers go get coffee and cigarette breaks, read magazines or just sit around waiting for the next order.

The producers of the order contact the client telling them that the order is ready to ship and do they want an earlier delivery date, or simply leave the cars in storage until the date they 1st specified.

They would not turn up on the doorstep of the client earlier than the date they ordered them.

The only industry that delivers before the due production date and everyone is happy is the housing/building industry.

So an option not to have ships in subsequent orders arrive earlier than ordered, would solve the production lottery.

A tick box, ordered ships to arrrive on time specifed.

Without ticking the box you create an As Soon As Possible ship order.

Is that doable ?
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 09:53   #144
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Why? Why do construction, research and production have to use the same system? After all, they are three different features of the game.
They don't have top be identical (and they arn't), but they do all need to use population in the same way i.e. either allowing population settings to be changed at anytime, or allowing them to only be changed every 48 ticks.

Some of the suggestions in this thread are also compatible, which is why we are currently working on tweaking the system.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 10:06   #145
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
Some of the suggestions in this thread are also compatible, which is why we are currently working on tweaking the system.
Will you let us know what's going on or are the tweaks going to be announced 24h before tickstart?
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 10:21   #146
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hude
Will you let us know what's going on or are the tweaks going to be announced 24h before tickstart?
There are several replies in this thread saying a) what we have already changed and b) what we are going to change.

In summary:

the max damage form structure killers has bene reduced to 5%
factories will now need to be assigned to orders - so the delivery dates are reliable unless an SK/covert op kills a factory.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 10:30   #147
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
They don't have top be identical (and they arn't), but they do all need to use population in the same way i.e. either allowing population settings to be changed at anytime, or allowing them to only be changed every 48 ticks.
OK. So all three systems use population. This is fine. But why does every system have to use population the same way? After all, you don't have security units either, it's just stealth and alert levels. Nor does mining output have "Mining Units". A said before, you can use population to affect the time a production order takes to arrive (i.e. population is used as extra workers which work an extra shift).

I took it that production, construction and research have to use the same complicated approach on formulae though, which is a wrong approach to game design. Features should work consistently, but not exactly the same when that means unnecessary overcomplication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
There are several replies in this thread saying a) what we have already changed and b) what we are going to change.

In summary:

the max damage form structure killers has bene reduced to 5%
factories will now need to be assigned to orders - so the delivery dates are reliable unless an SK/covert op kills a factory.
Go go portal team / fansite teams! That's the stuff you people would want to write down
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 10:33   #148
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
There are several replies in this thread saying a) what we have already changed and b) what we are going to change.

In summary:

the max damage form structure killers has bene reduced to 5%
factories will now need to be assigned to orders - so the delivery dates are reliable unless an SK/covert op kills a factory.
Funny, this is the first post that says it all clearly (bar the structure killer efficiency). Doesn't help the fact that not everyone is going to read this thread nor be able to pick your plan from a variety of speculative posts with a lot of ifs and maybes.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 10:39   #149
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

well i somewhat find it strange that the input given in beta doesnt count unless ppl post it in public forums, means the concept of public beta are useless to more than a sneak preview of the the game.

so to kal and co, have you guys a plan for the future of pa or do you just make up stuff as time goes? hell most guys still playing is on a knowned basis,

as in there isnt any new faces around really :/

i somehow think the community should have more to say about the design of the game as the pa team clealy have failed their mission of getting the game larger player base and more play friendly.
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Unread 19 Jun 2007, 10:50   #150
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Re: R 22 Construction/Production

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
OK. So all three systems use population. This is fine. But why does every system have to use population the same way? After all, you don't have security units either, it's just stealth and alert levels. Nor does mining output have "Mining Units". A said before, you can use population to affect the time a production order takes to arrive (i.e. population is used as extra workers which work an extra shift).

I took it that production, construction and research have to use the same complicated approach on formulae though, which is a wrong approach to game design. Features should work consistently, but not exactly the same when that means unnecessary overcomplication.
They don't all *have* to be identical, no. But we made the decision that the old produciton system would offer to many advanatges with dynamic population control. So we made the decision that everything should become more dynamic.

The features are not identical, for example factories and res labs hav entirely different impacts on their respective bits. In the future though, I personally would like to see population actually assining people to work in constructions. So researchers would work in res labs, ship builders in factories etc.
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