The proposed law

[Androme]

To ban smoking in public places in Ireland. Your opinion?

In interest, does this apply to Irish citizens like JBG? (I realise the law doesn't stretch over to here but he's still Irish )

[skiddy]

Bad idea.

[pablissimo]

****ing stupid; don't want to breathe smoke? Don't go to a ****ing pub.

**** me, that seems to be a rather simple solution with no outlay. Fantastic!

[Androme]

I feel we should chip in to get pab to a free stress release session.

My vote goes for a meditation session.

[Kurashima]

****ing great idea.

Fed up going into a pub to meet friends with an expensive shirt and coming out smelling like ive smoked 40 rollies. Anti social bastards. Make them stink out their own ****ing houses, not PUBLIC houses.

[pablissimo]

Hey maybe we should ban alcohol because people get rowdy, too.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

****ing great idea.

Fed up going into a pub to meet friends with an expensive shirt and coming out smelling like ive smoked 40 rollies. Anti social bastards. Make them stink out their own ****ing houses, not PUBLIC houses.

[Androme]

No alcohol is the cheapest known legal way to seduce someone*


*This info is priceless to Dace kiddies.

[pablissimo]

If people want smoke-free pubs that much, the market will provide them. See? It's already happening, there's a fair few pubs and restaurants that use their non-smoking policy as an advert. Niche market, ho!

[Androme]

Smoking is wrong and immoral.

Getting high is not however.

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

****ing great idea.

Fed up going into a pub to meet friends with an expensive shirt and coming out smelling like ive smoked 40 rollies. Anti social bastards. Make them stink out their own ****ing houses, not PUBLIC houses.

[MrPeach]

Originally Posted by pablissimo

If people want smoke-free pubs that much, the market will provide them. See? It's already happening, there's a fair few pubs and restaurants that use their non-smoking policy as an advert. Niche market, ho!

That doesn't work on the basis that in a group of friends going out there is always going to be some smokers and some non-smokers. So the pubs will end up empty, as everyone can sit in the Smokers Arms, but not all of them can sit happilly in the non-Smokers Arms. A problem that can only be solved by banning smoking in pubs altogether.

Also as for your other point, drinking alcohol in front of something does not effect their health directly, nor their smell. Smoking on the otherhand...

[MrPeach]

At Bath University there is not a single place that you can smoke indoors at lunch time now, I found this a little harsh as they just stretched the ban to the one last place smokers could go when it was pissing it down with rain to smoke whilst on campus.

Oh well... they are going to die anyway so they may as well die wet.

[Cmdr_Cyrax]

Originally Posted by pablissimo

****ing stupid; don't want to breathe smoke? Don't go to a ****ing pub.

**** me, that seems to be a rather simple solution with no outlay. Fantastic!

Ace.
Plus If you don't wanna be killed by a drink driver don't go anywhere near roads!

[Dace]

Also if you don't want to be molested by a paedophile don't be a kid.

[Deepflow]

smoking in public places is

and if you cant smoke in clubs. what the **** are you supposed to do? leave every time you want a ciggy. This will be very bad news for ecstacy culture. As it makes you absolutely dying for a cigarette, id have to give up before i went out again, it would be SHIT.

[Dante Hicks]

We've done this debate many times, it's a bad idea. I absolutley hate the smell of smoke, but this doesn't mean we should use the law to enforce my personal preferences.

Having said that, I'd prefer more consumer pressure on pubs to provide non-smoking environments.

[LHC]

Smoking is bad, but assuming it was right to ban smoking in public places, that still wouldn't explain banning it at work.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by LHC

Smoking is bad, but assuming it was right to ban smoking in public places, that still wouldn't explain banning it at work.

They're working from some odd definition of "public place" which extends to any private property where the public might go.

[JC]

I dont see why i should have to breathe in someone elses Cancer fumes in a public place. The sooner they ban it the better.

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by Kurashima

****ing great idea.

Fed up going into a pub to meet friends with an expensive shirt and coming out smelling like ive smoked 40 rollies. Anti social bastards. Make them stink out their own ****ing houses, not PUBLIC houses.

Yep.

I'd also like to see some protection given for those who wish to discriminate against smokers. As a teller i'd feel it should be my personal right to refuse to serve anyone stinking of smoke.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JC

I dont see why i should have to breathe in someone elses Cancer fumes in a public place. The sooner they ban it the better.

If I leave my front door open and have a sign on it saying "You can come in if you want, but beware, there's some smoke inside" - is my house a public place and do you have the right to stop me from smoking inside?

[JC]

Trying to say a pub is like your house and so isnt a public place is a stupid argument. That would also make a shop or restaurant a non-public place as they are "private property where the public goes" as you put it.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JC

Trying to say a pub is like your house and so isnt a public place is a stupid argument. That would also make a shop or restaurant a non-public place as they are "private property where the public goes" as you put it.

A restaurant is a private place (imho). It's privately owned, privately run, they only allow in who they wish (i.e. restricted entry).

Just because they have a licence to sell food doesn't make it "public".

If I hold a sale from my garage, is it public?

[Deffeh]

a lot of this boils down to whether you consider a smoky pub, or a non smoky pub, "the normal".

I dont mind smokers in pubs a lot of the time, unless

a/ The next morning i smell my clothes and they ****ing stink

b/ I'm trying to eat and its all i can smell

Sorry, i couldnt give a shit for the rights of smokers. I think if it should be allowed at all, it should be merely yourself, and your own poor kids lungs you should fill with that shit

[JC]

So what is a public place? A field in the middle of nowhere that happens to be owned by nobody?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by JC

So what is a public place? A field in the middle of nowhere that happens to be owned by nobody?

Something that's owned by the public. ie a government or directly government controlled area.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JC

So what is a public place? A field in the middle of nowhere that happens to be owned by nobody?

No, a school, hospitals, libraries, the roads, etc. Generally in our current economy anything owned by the public (via the state) is a public place.

If someone said "Public buildings are in a shocking state of disrepair" would you think they meant private offices?

[ChubbyChecker]

Restaurants & pubs are already strictly regulated. You are only allowed to sell alcohol until a certain time, you have to meet certain hygiene standards if you want to serve food, you have to make sure that your employees are not taking undue risks, etc...
Stopping people smoking in these places is not much of an extra stretch.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Stopping people smoking in these places is not much of an extra stretch.

So basically, we've already got so little freedom, who cares about another bit?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Restaurants & pubs are already strictly regulated. You are only allowed to sell alcohol until a certain time, you have to meet certain hygiene standards if you want to serve food, you have to make sure that your employees are not taking undue risks, etc...
Stopping people smoking in these places is not much of an extra stretch.

That's different. It's making something that is illegal elsewhere (selling alcohol for example) legal, not making something that is legal elsewhere illegal.

How about the government makes it illegal to wear football tops in bars? Or the wearing of the colour blue?

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

So basically, we've already got so little freedom, who cares about another bit?

Well, depends how you look at it really.
After all I don't see regulations on hygiene standards in kitchens as loss of freedom. Do I want to have the freedom to eat in some skanky, run down hell hole, where I will probably contract multiple weird and wonderful diseases? Er.... no!
In Ireland the smoking ban is marketed as protecting the health of the workers, which the government is perfectly entitled to do. I don't personally agree with the ban but you can't say the ban is wrong because a pub is not a public place.

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

That's different. It's making something that is illegal elsewhere (selling alcohol for example) legal, not making something that is legal elsewhere illegal.

What's the difference? Either way it's a double standard.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Well, depends how you look at it really.
After all I don't see regulations on hygiene standards in kitchens as loss of freedom. Do I want to have the freedom to eat in some skanky, run down hell hole, where I will probably contract multiple weird and wonderful diseases? Er.... no!

I don't particularly want the freedom to smoke, that means everyone else doesn't want to so we can ban smoking can't we?

[Structural Integrity]

People putting a smoking stick in their mouth and sucking on it.
COME ON!!! It's probably the stupidest habbit ever invented.

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I don't particularly want the freedom to smoke, that means everyone else doesn't want to so we can ban smoking can't we?

The issue is about public health, not personal preference

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

So basically, we've already got so little freedom, who cares about another bit?

Freedom is overrated

[JC]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

So basically, we've already got so little freedom, who cares about another bit?

I'm quite happy for people to kill themselves in anyway they want in their own home but i dont see why i should suffer from their smoke in a place i have to go to if i wish to drink draught beer with my friends, none of whom smoke.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by JC

I'm quite happy for people to kill themselves in anyway they want in their own home but i dont see why i should suffer from their smoke in a place i have to go to if i wish to drink draught beer with my friends, none of whom smoke.

Noone's forcing you to go to the pub.

'They should ban smoking because I like going to a friends house and he smokes and I don't like smoking and why should I have to go somewhere smokey'

[Deffeh]

why should it be a smokers right to smoke in a pub? You presume smoking is the normal and non smokers should have to deal accordingly.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

why should it be a smokers right to smoke in a pub? You presume smoking is the normal and non smokers should have to deal accordingly.

Smoking being legal IS the normal.

[JonnyBGood]

Personally I disagree with the decision. The government has no right to tell pub owners what they are permitted to allow occur on their own property.

However I must admit I'm surprised to see dante arguing this point of view seeing as I recall him arguing for rules to be set in place on factories which release pollution into the environment and therefore impact on anyone living nearby. Surely this would just be a similar case to that one, albeit on a smaller scale?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Personally I disagree with the decision. The government has no right to tell pub owners what they are permitted to allow occur on their own property.

Agreed.

However I must admit I'm surprised to see dante arguing this point of view seeing as I recall him arguing for rules to be set in place on factories which release pollution into the environment and therefore impact on anyone living nearby. Surely this would just be a similar case to that one, albeit on a smaller scale?

Don't be ridiculous. Issues like this are all about what's reasonable. For instance, let's say I live next door to a man, and I play music at 5000 decibels all night every night. I think it's fair enough that the man should be able to restrict my right to do this (either through some sort of tort, or through criminal law, whatever). However, this doesn't mean that you allow government to regulate what people can listen to full-stop, or other such nonsense.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

However I must admit I'm surprised to see dante arguing this point of view seeing as I recall him arguing for rules to be set in place on factories which release pollution into the environment and therefore impact on anyone living nearby. Surely this would just be a similar case to that one, albeit on a smaller scale?

I'd say it's different, because it's a restriction on corporate liberty as opposed to individual liberty. It's not just a difference in scale, either, because in happiness terms, noone is gaining anything (other than a small amount of money) from polluting the atmosphere, whereas tobacco has obvious plusses to the users.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Agreed.

Don't be ridiculous. Issues like this are all about what's reasonable. For instance, let's say I live next door to a man, and I play music at 5000 decibels all night every night. I think it's fair enough that the man should be able to restrict my right to do this (either through some sort of tort, or through criminal law, whatever). However, this doesn't mean that you allow government to regulate what people can listen to full-stop, or other such nonsense.

We're hardly proposing banning smoking in a submersible on the ocean floor here. However there are medical studies which clearly show that close proximity to smokers can lead to the same health problems that afflict them. I'm pretty sure the guy with lung cancer won't consider it reasonable that you allowed everyone to smoke in his favourite pub.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

I'd say it's different, because it's a restriction on corporate liberty as opposed to individual liberty. It's not just a difference in scale, either, because in happiness terms, noone is gaining anything (other than a small amount of money) from polluting the atmosphere, whereas tobacco has obvious plusses to the users.

Fine then. If I decided to release fourteen cubic tons of methalayted hydroxiline from my roof every day because I enjoyed the way it smelled would that be okay?

[NEWSBOT3]

Originally Posted by Deepflow

smoking in public places is

and if you cant smoke in clubs. what the **** are you supposed to do? leave every time you want a ciggy. This will be very bad news for ecstacy culture. As it makes you absolutely dying for a cigarette, id have to give up before i went out again, it would be SHIT.

oh yeah, that LEGAL ecstacy culture.
cant forget them.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

We're hardly proposing banning smoking in a submersible on the ocean floor here. However there are medical studies which clearly show that close proximity to smokers can lead to the same health problems that afflict them. I'm pretty sure the guy with lung cancer won't consider it reasonable that you allowed everyone to smoke in his favourite pub.

That's the point though. Some guy smoking in a pub doesn't affect me unless I make a conscious effort to go there (and so long as it's signed I can hardly be surprised if people smoke). If he comes into my home and blows smoke into my face then obviously it's a different matter.

With factories producing smoke, I can hardly move to a different Earths atmosphere can I?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

oh yeah, that LEGAL ecstacy culture.

Why does that matter?

[Deffeh]

I cant believe you are using the "you dont have to go to xyz pub" line. Why should life be made difficult for non smokers? They arent the ones polluting the air etc, life should be made as difficult for smokers as possible