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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 00:08   #51
JonnyBGood
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Re: Israel

Disagree, moral responsibility lies with the initiator of violence.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 00:10   #52
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Re: Israel

it all smacks of collective punishment to me.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 00:13   #53
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
it all smacks of collective punishment to me.
1) for who?
2) what do you propose?
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 00:41   #54
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Re: Israel

This whole situation is circular. The Israelis argue that they are reacting to terrorist activity. The Palestinian militants argue that they are reacting to years of oppression and heavy-handed occupation.

Culpability lies with both parties. However, to demand that the situation be resolved arbitrarily by deciding which side is more culpable than the other is ridiculous. The various divisions are so entrenched that it would be naive to expect either side to accept a superfluous judgement of moral responsibilty imposed by the West. Volatile situations like this demand some degree of pragmatism. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians should be urged to take responsibilty for the future, rather than be expected to judge the past. Looking to the past only leads to further retributive attacks.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 00:45   #55
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Re: Israel

Just on an aside the BBC no longer use the word "terrorist".
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 04:18   #56
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Re: Israel

SYMM to simply disregard history as if it never happened is just wrong. I am a person that is very much against violence, but I understand that there are times when a situation simply forces it. You speak as if you would condemn the American and French Revolutions and any uprising against past/current genocides (rwanda & darfur)
I would gladly see the people in darfur fight back anyway possible since it seems like their only option from being slaughtered.

Israel is as much a superpower as America, their not only a military, political and finacially superior nation but also a nuclear power. Their special forces and intelligence network is top notch too.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 07:50   #57
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Just on an aside the BBC no longer use the word "terrorist".
Well they still use in when discussing Hamas albeit indirectly. For instance :
Quote:
after Palestinian elections brought to power Hamas, a militant group that has refused to renounce violence or recognise Israel and is regarded as a terrorist organisation by the EU and US.
Source (June 16th - unless it's a more recent change than that.)

Which might seem fair enough - they are after all merely representing other people's viewpoints. However, as far as I know when they are talking about Israel (or Israel's political parties) they don't say "Israel...considered a terrorist state by many Palestenians". Or the United States "...considered to be a source of terrorist crimes by many millions of people" for that matter.

Media Lens made a smilar point about the BBC coverage of Chavez. To summarise their point : Chavez is "the left wing leader of Venezuala" while Blair or Bush are simply the PM or President. It normalises one sides representation at the expense of the other.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 07:56   #58
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Media Lens made a smilar point about the BBC coverage of Chavez. To summarise their point : Chavez is "the left wing leader of Venezuala" while Blair or Bush are simply the PM or President. It normalises one sides representation at the expense of the other.
Rubbish.

The media is providing information as a service. When the president of the USA is mentioned journalists can (rightly) assume that the reader knows who that person is and knows something about them. When the president of a more obscure nation such as venezuela is mentioned it is perfectly logical for the journalist to supply the reader with more information.

I think it's pretty childish of you (and the writer of that article) to argue that "people only oppose our point of view because the media controls their minds".
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 08:03   #59
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I think it's pretty childish of you (and the writer of that article) to argue that "people only oppose our point of view because the media controls their minds".
I didn't argue that.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 08:15   #60
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I didn't argue that.
I sumarised your argument for you by removing the disingenuous vaneer. I don't expect you to thank me.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 08:23   #61
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I sumarised your argument for you by removing the disingenuous vaneer. I don't expect you to thank me.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 09:00   #62
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Re: Israel

current affairs, and Israel have just arrested most of the Palestinian government on the charge of being dirty terrorists. As you can imagine, this has caused shock and outrage throughout the other Western powers.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 09:21   #63
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
current affairs, and Israel have just arrested most of the Palestinian government on the charge of being dirty terrorists. As you can imagine, this has caused shock and outrage throughout the other Western powers.
Hey, they want him back! And they sure know how to go about it
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 09:43   #64
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
1) for who?
2) what do you propose?
1) For the Palistinians.
2) The Israeli's use diplomacy rather than blowing up power stations etc.


Detaining elected government officials because some group in the country kidnapped a soldier will certainly not help matters.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 09:46   #65
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Re: Israel

In the gray fallacy one side says black, the other says white, and the neutral observer assumes it's somewhere in between. But even gray comes in shades my friends.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 09:48   #66
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
1) For the Palistinians.
2) The Israeli's use diplomacy rather than blowing up power stations etc.
ah, right. yes, agree; the timing meant I wasn't sure if it was some sort of fatuous point about Hamas being meanies. On reflection, that was probably me being an idiot rather than any real potential for misunderstanding. Oh well!
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 11:37   #67
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Exclamation Re: Israel

What this all comes down to is the fact that violence against Israel is never going to stop being attractive to your average Palestinian in the street, until the total economic and general societal blackhole in which they live in now is removed.

Unfortunately, no Israeli politician is ever going to have the balls to follow this to it's obvious conclusion, which is that the idea that the security situation must be, (and can be) brought to heel before the Palestinians have their own state is sheer bollocks. The total lack of an effective Palestinian state, which would be the framework for a decent standard of living, (well, by ME standards, anyway) and the removal of the despair which Palestinians now feel, is the ultimate root cause of the terrorism.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 11:48   #68
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
We have to consider the posibility that the US and Israeli governments just aren't interested in a peaceful settlement,
I think they are, but they're simply far too pig-headed and (certainly in the case of the Israelis) too scared of the public backlash if they let any modicum of intelligence and moral leadership actually enter into their policy calculations.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 11:57   #69
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
What do they (the Governments) have to gain from peace?
From the American point of view being known as the party that solved the isreali/palestinian problem would be enough of a boost in popularity to at a bare minimum get in on the back of it in the next election.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 12:02   #70
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
What do they (the Governments) have to gain from peace?
Political and economic stability? Peace in itself? Prestige boosts? The end of the murder of their fellow citizens?

It would probably be better to ask you what you believe they have to gain by a continuation of the violence.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 12:09   #71
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Exclamation Re: Israel

Well, I think that the Israelis can indluge in a bit of double-think on this. They can believe that what they're doing is utterly right in terms of a security perspective, whilst also being totally cynical about any prospect of it realistically leading to peace. In that sense they don't really have to acknowledge whatever benefits are gained from continuing the status quo.

Doing what they're doing now is the easy option, but they're also quite happy with viewing it as the right option.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 12:12   #72
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
Would it though? Given the sacrifices that would have to be made, plus the los of geo-political control in the region, and the need for a destabilising influence in the middle east to keep arab nationalism distracted fom unification seems like a lot to gamble for a further term which can be won in other ways. Furthermore I don't think the right wing Israeli parties could sustain themselves without banging the war drum, particularly if US money was withdrawn or divided between Israel and Palestine. Furthermore there is much more political capital to be derived from well meaning speeches and empty words than actual results.
From the bottom up, I disagree, being able to point to concrete results is a wonderful gift for election campaigns, people don't care about promises because they don't believe governments will keep them. Agreed but not really relevant to what I said. And disagree, arab unification is staggeringly unlikely. If anything people pull together in times of crisis and unite, why they'd do so in peace when they won't in "war" is beyond me. Geopolitically speaking the US controls Iraq and might as well control Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. What's the point of israel from a purely strategic point of view?
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 12:43   #73
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
US elections aren't fought on foreign policy in any case, but it would be very short-termist and there are no doubt any number of hawks who just wouldn't allow it, thee are plenty of peopel surrounding the Bish administration who would rather have Israel destroyed then see an effective Palestinian state.
Well, there has never been an foreign policy issue this important since the vietnam war. And brother the 1968 election was decided on the vietnam war. I think there are two other issues as well, the desire for most politicians to leave a lasting and peaceful legacy and the short-termness in terms of the parties in getting themselves elected. Both would lean towards making it a viable option.

Quote:
Arab unification is unlikely now largely because of the current situation. I am not talking about arab unification into one nation obviously but some sort of loose agreement. I am sure in 1940 the idea that there would be a common currency is Europe was laughable to many. If you recall they had started to pull togther but the US is not an enemy to arab states, just to its people, thus its huge presence in the region, facilitated by Israel, is divisive.
I don't think we should forget that one of the ideas behind the ECSC was to link France and Germany close enough to ensure they couldn't go to war with each other (this is a historical fallacy but the intention was there). I don't really think a geopolitical comparison between Europe and the Middle East is valid.

Quote:
The US has obvious leverage against Israel in terms of money and protection. Whilst it is nonsense to say that a US protected Israel could ever be threateend by its surrounding countries, if the US withdrew who could say what would happen.
Er, can I ask you what you think would happen?

Quote:
The US has only recently controlled Iraq and even then I doubt even the fairly puppet Iraqi government could pursue an overtly pro US agenda. Similarly Kuwait is a small base camp and I don't know Saudo Arabia has survived as long as it has without massive upheaval. Israel has been in place for decades and is a willing ally to the US, probably its most survile ally in fact rivalled only by the UK. In any case you can never have too many military bases if you are have an empire to look after. I don't think I am saying anything controversial here.
Provide a minimum of economic prosperity and I'd say they could. And I don't think that there is much danger of the US being forcibly evicted from kuwait or saudi arabia. They've been there for fifteen years plus now. I don't think the size of kuwait is relevant either. As long as you have room for some airfields and a barracks or two who really gives a shit? It's dangerous as well to think that the US consciously approaches foreign policy decisions thinking of itself as an empire. While many of the actions occur regardless of how they think of themselves psychologically analysing their actions won't be of much use through this perspective.

I would concede that we are rather dancing on pebbles here and the real issue as far as I'm concerned is that the Israeli government has everything to lose and nothing to gain through a peace settlement.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 12:52   #74
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Re: Israel

The whole concept of Isreal is wrong, that's what causing all the problems. The international community felt like that had to do something good for the jews after the 2nd world war and just gave them their holy land, without thinking about the people that had been living there for centuries (arabs).
The only real sollution that i can see working in a long term perspective is the arab nations around Isreal uniting and driving the jews out.
I don't see any other way how peace can be accomplished in Isreal without that, caus the jews are pretty much being assholes and doing to the arabs what the germans did to them in the 2nd world war, only difference is that only lasted a couple of years and the palestines have been suffering for 60 years. It shouldn't be a suprise that the palestines retaliate with the only weapon they have, suicide bombs. What else can they do? Roll over and die?
Try diplomacy again when all that happens is isreal giving them promises and then never keeping them?
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 12:55   #75
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
The only real sollution that i can see working in a long term perspective is the arab nations around Isreal uniting and driving the jews out.
Or they figure out how to live together in multi-cultural peace. What are they going to do? Slaughter fifteen million Jews and drive them into the sea while Israel nukes their major cities and military bases? Be realistic please.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 13:06   #76
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Re: Israel

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Slaughter fifteen million Jews
I doubt they'd have to kill the Jews in New York...
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 13:43   #77
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well they still use in when discussing Hamas albeit indirectly. For instance :


To paraphrase the article i read (The Economist June 24th - 30th p 37);

"The BBC governor's board rejected claims of 'deliberate or systematic bias' towards the Palestinians or the Israelis. The independent report said that the BBC should use the words 'terrorism' and 'terrorist', rather than the more neutral 'bomber' or 'militant', when covering deliberate attacks against civilians during the conflict - as it did in its reports on the bombings in London last July. The BBC will not, however, start referring to 'terrorism' and 'terrorists'. After the London bombings it decided to adopt its international vocabulary at home, to be more consistent."
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 13:43   #78
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
When Dante notes that a subtext is being given to leading groups you should pay attention and not offer apologies for the BBC.
I paid attention. That was why I replied.
I will judge what dante says on the basis of just that. There's no magic to my method: I will use logic to consider the arguments. In this instance Dante's logic was flawed so I tried to correct it - assuming that I did so in order to protect or apologise for the bbc is very very silly and illogical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You really can't afford to be blind to this. No one is saying that the media controls anyone's minds. However the media (in exactly the same way as the people in this thread) make certain assumptions on their stories and their audience and that has an affect on people's opinions.
They do make certain assumptions. However it is a logical fallacy to conclude from that that they do so for an ulterior motive or that those assumptions (if incorrect) will affect public opinion (if they are correct then they won't affect public opinion either because that opinion will already exist).

The media is a purely reactionary service. It reports. The bbc does not have an agenda to promote. It has nothing to gain by making incorrect assumptions; indeed it has everything to lose. It will make assumptions about the knowledge base of it's readership - hence there is no need to describe who George Bush is. It simply does not by doing so affect or dictate people's views of George Bush. Chavez is less well known and therefore he will be described. The bbc has no interest in describing him inaccurately.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You might point out that these accounts of the global situation are simply my version of the events, but not only is that view disregarded, it just isn't even imagined.
I don't see how you can make this assumption.

Your views are ignored because they are controversial and you are in the minority in having them. They are controversial because they may well not be supported by the facts, they contain logical fallacies and they are thereinby in danger of being wrong.

Darling I love both of you but you do have a tendancy to try to distil complex things into simple propositions and this tends to make you take logical jumps which are simply not true. Even using the phrase Iragi Resistance is just disingenuous. Focusing on the fact that India is not Muslim is also rubbish when one remembers Pakistan.

The reason that the bbc would not hold or prosletise your views is because they have no interest in being incorrect. It simply is not fair (and also not true) to then conclude that the bbc holds the views which are the oposite of yours. The bbc frequently uses the phrase "whom somepeople believe ..." other peoples views are often reported, but it is not the bbc's place to start preaching them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You yourself must have noted the woeful reporting of legal matters in the press, what makes you think this isn’t true for every other topic?
There is poor coverage of legal matters because journalists are stupid or non-lawyers. Unlike you I do not therefore conclude that there is some 'evil plot' going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You said yourself that some leaders are more well known than others, well how is that? It is because of editorial decisiosn made by the BBC.
Some leaders are more well known because they are more important. You might think that Chavez is the most important thing since sliced bread but your opinion is not that of the bbcs, not because the bbc are trying to subvert Chavez, but because Chavez is the leader of a country that will have a very small impact on the world stage and is generally irrelevant to British interests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
You might bluster "well of course the President of the USA is more famous" But why? Why do we have a reporting situation that is almost entirely anglocentric?
Because we are Anglo-Saxons. You have to accept that the British Broadcasting Corporation will focus on coverage of what British people care about and what affects their lives. Nobody could claim that the bbc covers the world cup because it is part of an instigated plot to create the dominance of football.

You are both in conspiracy theory territory on this one.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:12   #79
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Re: Israel

I'm not denying that there are assumptions.

I'm denying this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
However the media (in exactly the same way as the people in this thread) make certain assumptions on their stories and their audience and that has an affect on people's opinions.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:12   #80
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Nor is it the american government


Quote:
If we agree then why are we arguing.
Because I think you are mistaken on some points that will unnecessarily prolong human suffering. Why else would we be arguing?


And er seven million dante. I rather got ahead of myself there!
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:29   #81
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
The whole concept of Isreal is wrong, that's what causing all the problems. The international community felt like that had to do something good for the jews after the 2nd world war and just gave them their holy land, without thinking about the people that had been living there for centuries (arabs)
Jews generally bought the land in Israel, noone was 'given' anything (if anything it was the opposite, since Britain explicitly forbid Jews from purchasing land during WW2). In any case, the land on which the current 'Palestines' are living wasnt part of the original Israel and was obtained as a result of gross stupidity from the surrounding Arab countries, so the point is fairly moot.

Quote:
The only real sollution that i can see working in a long term perspective is the arab nations around Isreal uniting and driving the jews out.
At least you wear your racism on your sleeve.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:31   #82
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Sorry are we claiming that there are no neo-conservatives in the US government because it is they who believe that America is an empire and are acting accordingly.
No, I'm saying they don't control the US government. They have undoubtedly gained more power in recent years but to be honest I think it's not much different to the extreme christian drive. The extremists always existed, just now they're being reached out to as extraordinarily small numbers of votes swing the balance from democrat to republican (not saying there's actually a huge difference between them, just that matters little from the inside).
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:34   #83
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Are you aclaiming the people's opinions are not directly affected by the media?
I'm saying it is wrong to say that peoples opinions are directly affected by the sub-textual assumption of a pre-existing knowledge base among the readership.

I'm also apparently being 'unfair' when I suggest that you tend to simplfy issues and created logical fallacies ...
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:39   #84
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Jews generally bought the land in Israel, noone was 'given' anything (if anything it was the opposite, since Britain explicitly forbid Jews from purchasing land during WW2). In any case, the land on which the current 'Palestines' are living wasnt part of the original Israel and was obtained as a result of gross stupidity from the surrounding Arab countries, so the point is fairly moot.
The 1939 white paper which prohibited jews from buying land there was nothing to do with WWII. Also you're wrong about the land in general, less than 10% was owned by Jews prior to 1948.

http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/5_4/5_4_2.pdf
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:39   #85
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Nor is it the american government
From the "statement of principles" on that site:
Quote:
Elliott Abrams Gary Bauer William J. Bennett Jeb Bush

Dick Cheney Eliot A. Cohen Midge Decter Paula Dobriansky Steve Forbes

Aaron Friedberg Francis Fukuyama Frank Gaffney Fred C. Ikle

Donald Kagan Zalmay Khalilzad I. Lewis Libby Norman Podhoretz

Dan Quayle Peter W. Rodman Stephen P. Rosen Henry S. Rowen

Donald Rumsfeld Vin Weber George Weigel Paul Wolfowitz
There are quite a few well-known names on there that make up the elite of the US Government.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:47   #86
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
What this all comes down to is the fact that violence against Israel is never going to stop being attractive to your average Palestinian in the street, until the total economic and general societal blackhole in which they live in now is removed.

Unfortunately, no Israeli politician is ever going to have the balls to follow this to it's obvious conclusion, which is that the idea that the security situation must be, (and can be) brought to heel before the Palestinians have their own state is sheer bollocks. The total lack of an effective Palestinian state, which would be the framework for a decent standard of living, (well, by ME standards, anyway) and the removal of the despair which Palestinians now feel, is the ultimate root cause of the terrorism.

Thats pretty much on the nose... How to break the cycle of violence?

Two sides that will continiously retaliate each other. One does it mainly through "Conventional" warfare although it does have an intelligence agency (Israel) and the other does it through "Asymmetric" warfare (palestine) as it doesnt have a regular army but more of a series of paramilitaries group like hamas, Fatah and so on. This has lead to a stalemate where it is now a "prolonged war" where the general population is now impoverished on both sides.
Fiancially, socially and spiritually.
(although both extremists claim "god" is on their side)
You could argue that the palestines have the worse end of the deal but nether is free from it

Periodically The extremists need each other to feed each others "motivation"... not in any particular order.
Israeli government through the military bombs civilians to hit the terrorists to keep their extremists happy making it seem like they are getting results.
In turn the Israelis have generated more terrorists through citizens of palestine who may have still had the anti Israeli feelings but have driven them to the point where they take action. (The recruiters have an easy job made easier) and generate more terrorists. So the Cycle continues.
What makes this different is the Israelis decided if they couldnt get the people directly responcible they would held their "superiors" accountable for their actions, who just happens to be an elected goverment representatives. this is where the lines between "Conventional" and "Asymmetric" warfare start to become blurred. Hamas and similar groups are now entering the realm of being an authority of a state and then can start to become vunerable to conventional warfare... which would favour Israel. But these groups still work outside of government

Previously the leaders of these group could hide amonst the population and carry their work out through more "covert" means but now are in office and can be directly found.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 14:54   #87
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
From the "statement of principles" on that site:

There are quite a few well-known names on there that make up the elite of the US Government.
I know. That doesn't contradict what I said though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Previously the leaders of these group could hide amonst the population and carry their work out through more "covert" means but now are in office and can be directly found.
Those people aren't the leaders of these groups in any more real sense than you can say Tony Blair is the leader of a British organisation that went around killing paedophiles.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 15:02   #88
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Those people aren't the leaders of these groups in any more real sense than you can say Tony Blair is the leader of a British organisation that went around killing paedophiles.
It is all about people's preception. An Israeli soldier is mising the majority of Israelis want results Ie punishing those accountable.

The military cant get those directly responcible so they go for the top brass.
As long as they get results that keep their people (overall) happy.
That all that seems to matter.... Sadly
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 15:06   #89
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
It is all about people's preception. An Israeli soldier is mising the majority of Israelis want results Ie punishing those accountable.

The military cant get those directly responcible so they go for the top brass.
As long as they get results that keep their people (overall) happy.
That all that seems to matter.... Sadly
Much like how tony blair deals with the issue of child abuse. As long as you appear to get results it's okiley-dokiley!
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 15:14   #90
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well by all means offer evidence for me oversimplifying an issue.

In terms of logical falacies, again please provide an example
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showpo...&postcount=102

It was not my intention to be subtle.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 15:46   #91
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Re: Israel

It's pretty ****ing difficult to be subtle when you tell people you're a god.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 16:16   #92
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's pretty ****ing difficult to be subtle when you tell people you're a god.
Unless you're Loki

(posting in an israel thread)
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 16:18   #93
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Re: Israel

Ah but loki was a god!
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 19:23   #94
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
The only real sollution that i can see working in a long term perspective is the arab nations around Isreal uniting and driving the jews out.
I respectfully request to retract my earlier statement.




'Jews' aren't the problem. The problem is a bunch of thick headed people of various ethnicities and religious backgrounds all being a bunch of thick headed people. Unfortunately Israel is holding all the cards but not willing to do anything with them for whatever collage of reasons that I wont even attempt to guess at. Hence my suggestion for tougher outside influence.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 19:30   #95
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ah but loki was a god!
A lot of people say he wasn't, merely a hanger-onwith delusions of grandeur...
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 21:52   #96
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
A lot of people say he wasn't, merely a hanger-onwith delusions of grandeur...
It's kind of hard for a non-god to bring about the destruction of the world.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 22:09   #97
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Re: Israel

Give the palestianians enough advanced weapons to couse the same ammount of casulaties as Isreal does.

Remove all the right-winged jewish fundamentalists who live in the settlements and return them to where they came from (like New York), and you have peace within a short time.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 22:17   #98
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
A wiser solution is not to speak, when you know nothing about a subject.
If this became general policy, there would be very little chat on the forums.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 22:17   #99
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Give the palestianians enough advanced weapons to couse the same ammount of casulaties as Isreal does.

Remove all the right-winged jewish fundamentalists who live in the settlements and return them to where they came from (like New York), and you have peace within a short time.
No, what you have is even more slaughter of innocent people.
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Unread 29 Jun 2006, 22:32   #100
SYMM
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Re: Israel

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
It's kind of hard for a non-god to bring about the destruction of the world.
Reading that article, it seems to agree with me that Loki was in fact a Juton and not a God as such.
(isn't arguing about made-up things great? )
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