Salvage

[Blue_Esper]

Please change salvage back to how it was 6 rounds ago, its current formula promotes crashing and suiciding for HUGE xp gains and unless you full emp before kills/steals it is VERY rare that you end in green from salvage (unless defending vs cath)

[Mzyxptlk]

It's not even tick 200. XP is always strongest early on in the round.

[Blue_Esper]

even last round towards the end it was better not to def because of xp lands

[Mzyxptlk]

Last round we didn't have the current salvage formula. Let's see how it goes before we jump to conclusions on this.

[Blue_Esper]

this rounds salvage formula is still LESS than last rounds salvage formula....

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

this rounds salvage formula is still LESS than last rounds salvage formula....

Please confirm how this is?

Edit:
Salvage for defending ships is now 40% not 30%

[Blue_Esper]

Getting punished for being good sucks.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper

Getting punished for being good sucks.

... which is why I removed the score "bonus" on salvage and instead increased the base salvage.

[Tiamat101]

This new Change that you made for Steal ships sucks ALOT! You are going to single handily KILL Steal ships from being anything worth while.

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ulbzymnvye68zno

This is Stupid, The Zik is the one that loses all there ships and gets 0 Salvage even though his ships are the one that do the killing and even though his value and score is Lower.

This needs to get FIXED

[Plaguuu]

the way I see it they both get the same, zik gets +15k in ships and cath gets 15k in salvage. Their both doing the job. Without the cat the phantoms kill the zik. Id say its not stupid at all.

[Appocomaster]

Agreed. I had a similar discussion on IRC earlier.

What would happen previously was that Caths would get no salvage and Ziks would get salvage (or, in a couple of recent rounds, I'd cap it).

Now, Ziks get ships (and a value gain of almost 26% in that calc) and cath gets salvage (though less of a gain)

I don't see what the complication is.

[Mzyxptlk]

Indeed. I don't see the problem here.

[Influence]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Indeed. I don't see the problem here.

the problem is that there is no incentive for ziks to defend, as you 'may' steal the same ships in attack and get roids too.

imho, ships lost stealing should contribute as attacking salvage, and attacking salvage should be spread 'evenly' over all defenders (using the value key as used currently) where cath get a bit of a salvage bonus because they don't kill ships, and ter get a smaller salvage bonus for shooting late.

If you wanna limit value gains from stealing you should limit zik effs to 100%. Alternatively you can cap the actual stealing to 100% where the efficiency overflow leads to killed ships due to 'flaws' in the stealing mechanism

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Influence

imho, ships lost stealing should contribute as attacking salvage, and attacking salvage should be spread 'evenly' over all defenders (using the value key as used currently)

Please explain how this is different to what is currently done?

where cath get a bit of a salvage bonus because they don't kill ships, and ter get a smaller salvage bonus for shooting late.

None of this makes sense to me. Currently, Terran do get less salvage, value for value, than Cath, but their salvage is boosted to take into account it's harder for them to get salvage. I'm confused by why Terran should get a smaller salvage bonus for shooting late? Unless you mean something similar to at the moment.

If you wanna limit value gains from stealing you should limit zik effs to 100%. Alternatively you can cap the actual stealing to 100% where the efficiency overflow leads to killed ships due to 'flaws' in the stealing mechanism

I'm not sure how this follows. value gains (as a ratio) are currently limited. The whole reason for this setup is to allow for some value to be gained, but not to have a "double gain", i.e. if you are gaining like, 15% value in some circumstances, getting another 40% value back from salvage when your co defenders get zippo is completely unfair, and it's way past time that this issue should have been addressed.

[Influence]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Please explain how this is different to what is currently done?


None of this makes sense to me. Currently, Terran do get less salvage, value for value, than Cath, but their salvage is boosted to take into account it's harder for them to get salvage. I'm confused by why Terran should get a smaller salvage bonus for shooting late? Unless you mean something similar to at the moment.

I indeed believe this is as it is now.

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I'm not sure how this follows. value gains (as a ratio) are currently limited. The whole reason for this setup is to allow for some value to be gained, but not to have a "double gain", i.e. if you are gaining like, 15% value in some circumstances, getting another 40% value back from salvage when your co defenders get zippo is completely unfair, and it's way past time that this issue should have been addressed.

I agree, it was about time the issue was addressed, but i think you might have taken it a step too far. Like i said, in the bcalc tia showed, it doesn't matter at all to the zik if the sides are switched. The zik will in that case still have the same gains (and even more if he sends pods).

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Influence

I agree, it was about time the issue was addressed, but i think you might have taken it a step to far. Like i said, in the bcalc tia showed, it doesn't matter at all to the zik if the sides are switched. The zik will in that case still have the same gains (and even more if he sends pods).

Zik gets a 26% value gain. That's pretty huge. You're looking at a more extreme 0 loss scenario. If ships were lost, if the planet were smaller, etc, then salvage may well have been allocated (e.g. this).

There is still some score-related capping, to help to limit huge value growths for big planets (a 0-score planet is capped at gaining 50% of its original fleet value, so realistically even semi-active planets are capped at around 20-30%)

obviously "perfect" emp/steal 0 loss combos still lead to impressive gains that effectively break this cap, but removing that is more than trivially complex and will make steal / salvage even harder to understand in combat. It means that Zik is still more than viable, though ....

[Tiamat101]

What I would like to see is Zik still getting Salavage for there ships Stealing, Since they are ALWAYS fireing last and they don't always have the luxury of having emp with them. Because they are losing there ships they should get salvage back from them. Do i think it should be as high as it was not at all. It was 40% of defending ships cost or something close to that I'd Like to see up to 1/2 of what it was given a value/score ratio like it was in the past to limit high value ziks from getting huge donations.

[Mzyxptlk]

Huh, actually. Why does the Zik get 0 salvage in Tia's calc? Is it because the ships that are stolen don't count in the salvage dividing algorithm? Because if that's the case, I do think that should be fixed (if it's not a complete pain in the ass).

[tokath]

One thing that would be interesting to try, (perhaps in a winter round?) is to stop/heavily reduce the salvage caps compared to what they are now. However stolen ships are only counted towards the value and not the score of the planet stealing the ships.

Keeping the ships counting towards value would prevent stealing to stay below bash limits. Since the bravery multiplier already takes into account value a small tweak may be all that's needed for that.

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

Huh, actually. Why does the Zik get 0 salvage in Tia's calc? Is it because the ships that are stolen don't count in the salvage dividing algorithm? Because if that's the case, I do think that should be fixed (if it's not a complete pain in the ass).

When taking into consideration stolen ships, the zik fleet has breached the original_fleet_value*(1+0.5*(1-score/avg_top_20_score)) value "limit"*** of the fleet. Therefore it is excluded from salvage allocation and so just the Cath gets the salvage

***which is a minimum of original_fleet_value*1.01

I was going to reply with lots of maths but realised even fewer people would get what I said

[Mzyxptlk]

Ah, I see.