The greatest american, as voted by, americans

[Dante Hicks]

Mark Steele?

He ran as a candidate in my constitutency once.

[Nusselt]

yeah thats the one, he made sylvia sound im sure it was an enhanced summing up of her life but nevertheless i dig her. He comes across as a bit of a wanker though.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Nusselt

on balance anti but only because i was led to believe he was a bit of a puritanical bastard (may be mistaken)

He was indeed a puritan. However, if you hadn't noticed, quite a few people around that time were.

He did, on the other hand, create the modern concept of an army, and do a whole load of other stuff.

[Ärketrollmannen]

Why? He has brought immense wealth to America, creating a huge corporation, and now he is one of the most generous people in the world, building a better life for millions of people, It hink he deserves his place on the list.

[furball]

His Foundation deserves it alone, his entrepreneurial success adds further to that. I'm not keen on his business practices, but there can be no doubt that he has been incredibly successful.

[Nusselt]

Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson

Also, do you suppose that all those Americans who voted for Einstein knew that he was a commited Socialist and Pacifist?

Its even funnier when you tell them about Sinn fein and the IRA

[Deepflow]

personally, ive always thought that george washington was unbelievably cool. I was pretty surprised he was so low, what is it that americans dont like about him as much as lincoln? All lincoln did was tack on some civil rights to an economic war... or so ive been told.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

No no, sure he might have given a lot of money to worthy causes, but are you saying that out of ALL Americans EVER he is one of the top 10 greatest.

He's probably had a large an effect on the every day lives of Americans (and the whole of the Western World) than many others on the list?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Well yeah - that's probably true in the context of purely President vs President (which I concede your post about 'best president of 20th Century' obviously meant) but it seems strange to say Reagan is that 'great' because he was part of a team which achieved various things you liked. Especially if you're comparing to people like Jefferson, Franklin, Einstein, Washington and various other Americans who had individual greatness on one level or another.

This is a fair point, and I'm not sure how to respond. Although Reagan was probably a figurehead, he was also the hub around which the operation revolved - without him, its unlikely that the team would have done the things it did. Without inside knowledge into the operations of a particular administration, its hard to know how influential a particular person was, which is why I generally associate the president with the administration as a whole, and hence form judgements like Reagan == good, FDR == bad. But as you say, in the context of a 'greatest american' thread, it seems unfair to include someone because of actions which they might not have been responsible for. Despite all the good which occurred under Reagan, he wasnt responsible for it in the same way someone like Pericles or Jefferson was responsible for their reign. But this kind of argumentation makes it hard to justify the inclusion of any 20th century political leaders - for instance, how much of what happened under Churchill was he really responsible for? I think this is a problem youre always going to get when you compare 'individualist' enterprises like science and business with 'team efforts' like modern politics.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

No no, sure he might have given a lot of money to worthy causes, but are you saying that out of ALL Americans EVER he is one of the top 10 greatest.

Show me Americans who have done more for America or the world than he has.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

Without inside knowledge into the operations of a particular administration, its hard to know how influential a particular person was, which is why I generally associate the president with the administration as a whole, and hence form judgements like Reagan == good, FDR == bad. But as you say, in the context of a 'greatest american' thread, it seems unfair to include.

i'm curious.

what's the argument against FDR?

[onetwothree]

the greatest american, also known as the worlds worst person.

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by acropolis

i'm curious.

what's the argument against FDR?

New deal, rounding up all Japanese people in America and putting them into concentration camps, use of the constitution as toilet paper, that kind of thing. From my knowledge of American history, he was their worst president by far.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

I have, I gave a list, see earlier in the thread.

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Noam Chomsky
Woody Allen
Al Pacino
Kurt Cobain
John Dewey

Noam Chomsky: top 20-30, I would say - but not top 10, he hasn't affected the world enough.
Woody Allen: I don't know him particularly well, perhaps top 20. Still unsure how he is superior to Gates.
Al Pacino: Great actor. But I must admit I am biased towards political and military successes regarding great Americans, that's just my choice though.
Kurt Cobain: top 30 but not top 10.
John Dewey: I don't know him at all, Wikipedia tells me that he is an important philosopher but I can't go any further on that. I am unsure how he can beat Bill Gates.


My list is based on the great Americans who were responsible for its military and political successes, or greatly affected its culture.

1) Thomas Jefferson - Declaration of Independence, President
2) George Washington - War of Independence, first President
3) Thomas Edison - Inventor, responsible for so so many things that affected lives
4) Franklin D Roosevelt - presided over the recovery from the Great Depression, elected President four times. See below for more.
5) Abraham Lincoln - Union President during the Civil War, enancipated the slaves.
6) Benjamin Franklin - established electricity, one of the leaders of the American Revolution
7) Martin Luther King Jr. - civil rights leader, need I say much more here?
8) Robert E .Lee - one of the great generals, even if he did finish on the losing side.
9) Elvis Presley - most record sales of all time, social icon, symbolised rock and roll
10) Bill Gates - entrepreneur, philantropist

Originally Posted by Nodrog on FDR

New deal, rounding up all Japanese people in America and putting them into concentration camps, use of the constitution as toilet paper, that kind of thing. From my knowledge of American history, he was their worst president by far.

Then your knowledge must be pretty poor, someone like Andrew Johnson was far far worse.

Roosevelt was responsible for a massive expansion of the federal government (against the 10th Amendment to the Constitution), which I think you are referring to. And yes, he oversaw the Japanese internment (in line with popular opinion, note the Supreme Court's concurrence in 1944).

You also come out against the New Deal, but I'm not totally sure why. Most criticisms are based on its federal nature, but the states were individually impotent to deal with the Great Depression. It needed wholescale action from the Federal Government to achieve anything approaching recovery, and the New Deal certainly was that.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

New deal, rounding up all Japanese people in America and putting them into concentration camps, use of the constitution as toilet paper, that kind of thing. From my knowledge of American history, he was their worst president by far.

<3 new deal.

the real screwing with the japanese internment came because when they were released, they weren't given back their houses and stuff. but fdr was dead by then. And, as it turned out, huge numbers of them were spying for the japanese. Unlike some minorities that got interned more recently we could talk about. but either way, compared to Andrew Jackson's brilliant 'gather up every native and march them around the country until every one of them is dead' I don't see how the internment sits as anything more than a historical post-it note.

I'm not sure what you mean about the constitution. My guess is his fight with the supreme court, who at the time believed any movement towards a welfare state was unconstitutional for no reason a modern american could understand or a reader of the constitution could find, and he threatened until they caved.

To me the worst things you can do (as a president) are
1. Use your power (illegally) to remove the freedoms of your people
2. Use your power (illegally) to keep yourself in power (Nixon)

and only second tier
1. Use your power (illegally) to accomplish your agenda (Reagan in Iran Contra)

[dda]

I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in America, people in general are sadly unaware of history. This is why contemporary leaders tend to do overly well in such poles. Some Americans who would be worthy of consideration would be:

Alexander Hamilton for putting the American monetary system on a sound footing.

Admiral Nimitz who figured out how to stop the Japanese navy early in WWII so that America could get fully into the war and help to win it.

Jackie Robinson who integrated major league baseball and probably did more for racial progresss in the US than either King or X.

Henry Ford who made America mobile.

John Marshall who established the role of the Supreme Court.

That's off the top of my head.

[Nodrog]

I'm still not convinced that linguistics is a worthwhile field of study and I obviously disapprove of Chomsky's political stance, so I allmost certainly wouldnt include him in a top 20 list. I do like some of his contributions to philosophy though - his attack on behaviorism was commendable and he seems to have a fairly sensible view of language, which is a nice antidote to the kind of lunacy proposed by people like Quine and certain schools of Wittgensteinians. I also find his 'anti-reductionist' stances refreshing, particularly his scepticism towards evolutionary theories of language and the mind. Theres quite a few other aspects of his views that appeal to me. So yeah, Chomsky is pretty cool but theres no way hes going on a top 20 list.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Erm I'm no historian but:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm

Maybe these are baseless allegations I don't know.

"Henry Ford controlled his workers with the aid of Harry Bennett, who was head of security for the Ford empire. Bennett operated with the help of paid labor goons, who would beat and abuse Ford employees. I have a feeling that Hitler's Gestapo learned some techniques from Harry Bennett. Bennett made exclusive use of "Chowder Head" Cohen, an infamous strikebreaker, who scoured the gutters and alleys of big cities to recruit men noted for their brutality and sadism. "Chowder Head" worked anywhere in the nation where a strike was in progress."

http://www.freepress.org/fleming/flemng75.html

you know, Ford liked Hitler.

But so did a lot of people (e.g., Lindbergh). And Ford really helped out the Germans in the 30s. But so did a lot of people (e.g., IBM, and Bush's gran pappy).

Is that really a fair criticism? I don't think any of them were giving Hitler any help after the war started. And to me, if two months from now Canada starts rounding up those Frenchies in Quebec and killing them, how fair will it be 50 years from now to criticize those companies that today have canadian investments? How could they miss all that anti-Quebec propaganda in the Canadian media?

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

I'm still not convinced that linguistics is a worthwhile field of study and I obviously disapprove of Chomsky's political stance, so I allmost certainly wouldnt include him in a top 20 list. I do like some of his contributions to philosophy though - his attack on behaviorism was commendable and he seems to have a fairly sensible view of language, which is a nice antidote to the kind of lunacy proposed by people like Quine and certain schools of Wittgensteinians. I also find his 'anti-reductionist' stances refreshing, particularly his scepticism towards evolutionary theories of language and the mind. So yeah, Chomsky is pretty cool but theres no way hes going on a top 20 list.

to what extent would agreeing with your political views limit potential entrants to your list?

ps:
i <3 conservatives.
and they have the same version of keynes' book i do.

[Nodrog]

When I view someone's political views as being evil, this tends to detract from their character as a whole. I wouldnt include Hitler on a 'greatest human beings' list regardless of any positive qualities he might have had, since I have fairly strong disagreements with his political outlook. Having evil political views isnt sufficient for me to write someone off though. After all Einstein was a socialist, yet he was pretty awesome. But Chomsky's politics play a central role in his later writings, whereas Einstein's never.

[dda]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Erm I'm no historian but:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm

Maybe these are baseless allegations I don't know.

"Henry Ford controlled his workers with the aid of Harry Bennett, who was head of security for the Ford empire. Bennett operated with the help of paid labor goons, who would beat and abuse Ford employees. I have a feeling that Hitler's Gestapo learned some techniques from Harry Bennett. Bennett made exclusive use of "Chowder Head" Cohen, an infamous strikebreaker, who scoured the gutters and alleys of big cities to recruit men noted for their brutality and sadism. "Chowder Head" worked anywhere in the nation where a strike was in progress."

http://www.freepress.org/fleming/flemng75.html

I thought the list was greatest Americans. Not best Americans or nicest Americans. That to me would be a different list.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

When I view someone's political views as being evil, this tends to detract from their character as a whole. I wouldnt include Hitler on a 'greatest human beings' list regardless of any positive qualities he might have had, since I have fairly strong disagreements with his political outlook. Having evil political views isnt sufficient for me to write someone off though. After all Einstein was a socialist, yet he was pretty awesome. But Chomsky's politics play a central role in his later writings, whereas Einstein's never.

Fair enough.

So the obvious question.

We clone Hitler. We teach him to hate Jews with a passion. He goes into politics. He wins a lot. He puts into place much of his fascist belief system, except he does away with the whole "ethnic cleansing" thing, saying "it didn't work out so well last time", and guess what, it works out amazingly well. The standard of living skyrockets, the world unites under him, and everyone is happy and life is wonderful. And all because of him.

Personally, I'd put Hitler down at #1 with the bullet. I guess to me, what matters is the results of your actions, and I could care less about your personal beliefs.

But for you?

[Nodrog]

When I say I disagree with Hitlers politics, I am not exclusively referring to the killing of jews. Even if Hitler had loved jews, the project he initiated would still have been exceptionally evil.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by Nodrog

When I say I disagree with Hitlers politics, I am not exclusively referring to the killing of jews. Even if Hitler had loved jews, the project he initiated would still have been exceptionally evil.

To me "the thing with Hitler" was that 50 million that died.

That was 'the deal breaker'.

People compare their opponents to Hitler all the time. Did you know that Hitler, Like Bush Jr., didn't drink? And they were both strongly pro-their country? Seems a little suspicious doesn't it?

Not it doesn't. Because Hitler killed 10s of millions.

Why would Hitler's project have been evil if it had resulted in a better world, without any tragedies en route?

[Nodrog]

I fail to see how national socialism could possibly have resulted in a 'better world', regardless of whether jews were singled out for special treatment or whether he tried to conquer Europe. Killing jews and trying to rule the world are the things Hitler will be most remembered for, but they are by no means the only parts of his project I consider to be evil. Even if national socialism wasnt racist had never spread beyond Germany, it would still be a fundamentally evil form of government.

[furball]

Originally Posted by dda

I don't know how it is in the rest of the world, but in America, people in general are sadly unaware of history. This is why contemporary leaders tend to do overly well in such poles.

Sadly this is also the case here swap contemporary leaders for sports stars.

Originally Posted by dda

Some Americans who would be worthy of consideration would be:

Alexander Hamilton for putting the American monetary system on a sound footing.

I like Hamilton in his role as one of the key Founding Fathers, but don't know much more about him. Top 10?

Originally Posted by dda

Admiral Nimitz who figured out how to stop the Japanese navy early in WWII so that America could get fully into the war and help to win it.

Agreed, he was great. Definitly above Patton and Ulysses S. Grant (America's other great military leaders who I haven't put in the top 10). Top 25, probably, but I still don't seem him edging out Gates.

Originally Posted by dda

Jackie Robinson who integrated major league baseball and probably did more for racial progresss in the US than either King or X.

I think it's best that the Americans on this board decide among themselves who had the greatest effect. I studied American Civil Rights for an entire year, yet I never had Robinson mentioned to me. However, simply looking him up tells me that he was great as a person, yet I cannot tell on what level because I'm not American - I'm an outsider looking in.

Originally Posted by dda

Henry Ford who made America mobile.

I agree that he did an incredible amount for industrial production; he revolutionised it. Just outside the top 10 (or equal?) for me, I just don't hate Gates enough to want to displace him.

Originally Posted by dda

John Marshall who established the role of the Supreme Court.

Marbury v Madison is a very good decision, I'm just unsure that one decision should bestow greatness upon someone.


I will never claim to be always right, it's all my personal choice. I think that Bill Gates has left a considerable legacy that perhaps only Henry Ford matches. Time will tell.

[acropolis]

As far as I know, every significant world leader ever has been a nationalist socialist. Maybe they've always been a negative force on a world trending forward, but I digress.

When I was a child in grade school, we were taught that in the middle ages, people made assumptions about the basic truths and used those to find the facts about our world. i.e., i assume there is a god, and therefore he must have made birdies with pretty feathers. 'deductive reasoning,' which while apparently good for sherlock was piss poor science and the major reason life was shit back then.

Whereas eventually we hit enlightenment, in which people used the specific facts to determine broad facts, i.e., inductive reasoning or empiricism. To make a long story short, it was a much better system.

To me, what works works. And if your underlying political philosophy tells you what systems work and what systems don't work instead of what systems work telling you what systems work, then you are really a political theologian and not a political scientist. But if that works better, then I guess it works better.

[LHC]

He's living the American dream. At least superficially anyway.

I don't know the circumstances in which he came into his money, but anybody seen to be an example of the American dream is likely to come high up on the list.

[NEWSBOT3]

i'm suprised that no gimmicks of traditional american opponents have appeared in this thread yet.

[LHC]

I have no idea how rich he was before, but I said it was superficial.

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by dda

They are mind boggeling. That I am sitting here communicating (at least attempting to communicate) with people thousand of miles away and don't have to pay long distance is great.

it's ace isn't it

I got bored with the thread.... but don't worry. extended exposure to GD will stop you being a republican.
After seeing some posters and realising that a hitler-esque 'final solution' is cruely denied you by distance you have to become liberal or you end up sticking pencils in your eye.

[acropolis]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

i'm suprised that no gimmicks of traditional american opponents have appeared in this thread yet.

123 needs 622 more posts before he should retire

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by acropolis

123 needs 622 more posts before he should retire

???

isn't onetwothree nick???

[Stew]

Originally Posted by Yahwe

???

isn't onetwothree nick???

Yes, but then his post count will be 789.