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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 22:12   #1
Deffeh
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Drifting towards 21

So im getting older, i turn 21 on burns day.

I am desperately unhappy and not sure how to change things, as realistically im about to enter my prime and things, at least physical health wise, are only going to get worse. To review;

Every year i seem to get more and more disassociative. Severing ties, losing contact with people, remaining aloof, periodically falling out with people after convincing myself they are out to get me. Its bizarre, i do this internal witch hunt thing, in which i plan ahead long series of argument and detail anecdotal evidence which to use against a person.

For my birthday im going to do the typical 'drink all day' thing, but probably just in the flat, because i dont want to trouble people to come out. The thing is as well, for all the people i 'know', the amount of people i even 'go for a drink with' is desperately small. I suspect my birthday will be me and 4 friends in the flat, and it'll be a mediocre occasion. The thing is, to try anything bigger would just be embarrassing. Im toying with whether to even bother asking my Glasgow friends to come up to Stirling, i dont want to obligate them, and i also dont want confirmation from a lot of them that i would go to their birthdays, but they wouldnt go to mine. Even more than that, i dont want anyone to spend money getting here / on me, for what, like i said, will be an incredibly mediocre affair, probably involving me playing music on my laptop and showing videos on youtube to my guests. I dont even know if i'll invite Dace up and when you're not sure if you want to risk inconveniencing Dace or not shit isnt good.

This isnt to say ' i have no friends ' - i know plenty of people, i just find myself caring so little about what any of them think, say, do, etc etc that im under no illusion that i should expect them to do the same for me. When im 'on top of things', im reasonably good in social settings. But i dont care enough about keeping people happy, or keeping up appearances or anything like that.

Ive also realised that the people i do keep in regular contact with are mostly pretty simple, and the relationships i own are very one dimensional. I surround myself with persons of mediocre intellect so it makes my slightly above the national average brain feed my ridiculous ego. I am the best student out of any of my friends in glasgow or stirling, for example - the ones that didnt drop out that is.

Mentally, im in a pretty bad situation in that i dont really have much of a fallback for when things go poorly. Especially regarding my family - who considering my mother has Clinical Depression, and my Auntie has Manic Depression (she was actually just committed a few weeks ago and her kids taken off her) are pretty terrible at understanding my aforementioned disassociative posture. They dont know im on meds, or how bad ive felt most of my life, because its easier that way. Even if i did for some bizarre reason want to share it, to do so would be selfish, considering the financial and emotional worries they have not just of their own, but due to the combined problems of two nutter families (the aforementioned auntie isnt the only one in a home or an institution). People keep dying too on both sides, and theres more to come in the near future i would suspect. I'll attend the funerals, show face, but its rather hard to be continually criticised for not being more family orientated etc when i feel.. nothing, towards other human beings.

Part maybe of my issue with family is its a tie you cant fully sever, and i hate being obligated to people. I really dont feel anything about any of them, except quite a lot of anger and resentment towards my mum.

I havent had sex in well over a year and a half, and have never actually did the whole 'chase' thing myself, relationships i just sort of fell into. I have no sex drive. Combined with my complete distaste for and disinterest in the human race, my misogyny is at such a level that i cant really forsee me ever having a relationship again, especially given the typical role played by the man in the courting process.

Regards meds; im always aware from both the internet, and my immediate family that there are supposedly a significant portion of people who 'have it worse', their numbers timescales and doses produce a better resume. Part of the thing with depression is in some sort of horrible way you guard it and are even 'attached' to it. You are also very much aware that considering the scope of the illness, you dont really stand out from the crowd by being 'depressed'. Im probably better on them than off them, but i get lulls, like the last few days, where it just seems impossible to go on. If you havent experienced it, theres nothing that can explain the nightmare of knowing yourself you arent angry with anyone or anything, or upset about anyone or anything, but being unable to rationalise it as a chemical imbalance. I'd like to think that even now i'm reasonable rational and coherent enough to suggest that im not depressed about anything in particular, i just feel like shit.

Recently ive been waking up in the night terrified someone is going to break in, have barricaded the door and what not, checked its locked on several occasions during the night. Today when walking to the bus stop i ducked when someone was walking towards me because i was so sure they were going to take a swing at me, the person looked at me like i was crazy. I went to the gym to try and get the adrenaline flowing, managed a 45 minute or so workout but quit due to apathy rather than tiredness. I did push myself pretty hard and lasted longer than i have before in similar mental states, but after a while parts of my body just wouldnt respond.

So,
Im getting older and i need to make some better choices in my life. I eat well, ive gotten help in the form of medication psychiatry and psychology, i exercise 5 or 6 times a week, i take vitamin tablets and olive oil capsules, eat my 5 a day, cut out the fizzy drinks again. Its just pretty devestating that i dont seem to be reaping much reward from any of the positive action ive taken.
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 22:23   #2
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
i take olive oil capsules
How strange.
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 22:31   #3
Deffeh
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Re: Drifting towards 21

cod liver oil, my bad.


Maybe i should hook up with horn and form a band. or just rape a few prostitutes
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Unread 22 Jan 2007, 22:42   #4
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Maybe you should try to get some better friends. I don't wish to sound cndescending but if you're purposely surrounding yourself with 'inferior' people to make yourself feel better about your current state then this isn't really going to encourage personal growth and you will just continue in a rut.*


I suggest you move into a house with horn and Yahwe and use it as the basis for a sit-com.**





*this may or may or may not be complete and utter drivel.
**modern-day tragedy.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 01:28   #5
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Your 21st birthday celebration sounds a lot more lively than mine was. Either way, there's nothing much I can advise except "Try to develop a positive attitude" which is both unhelpful and probably unfeasible in the circumstances.

For what it's worth I found life has got better as it's gone on and although I envision physical collapse at some point, it obviously doesn't happen overnight. If anything, I feel better and sharper than I did a few years ago, and that's with a pretty much weekly pounding of my brain for the last two years.

I have no idea what your life will hold, but you'll probably have a realistic option of never having to speak to your family ever again within a couple of years. For me, having that option at least was pretty important.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 01:40   #6
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Seems relatively normal, the paranoia aside (which could be a combination of drugs and growing up in Glasgow) im unsure what you want us to say to you. Most people who aren't alpha males like tomkat* don't have a billion interesting things going on in their lives and aren't 'winners'. I'm not being harsh but what exactly 'do you want'?? 30 friends of which you're the conversation steerer and everyone looks up to you? they'd probably think you're a **** behind your back. If i were to ask you what would make you happy (what 'reward you want to reap'), we could list out relationships/money/a car etc but ultimately you'd get used to and bored of everything on that list. Life isn't a movie where things work out and you get a 'happy ending'. Pretty much everything moves in cycles, didn't you point just a few weeks ago that your friends in glasgae were on hardcore drugs and you were glad you weren't like them? Isn't that a reward you've reaped?

You'll never feel completely content and pretending that if you just get the perfect partner/more money/better friends everything will be okay from then on till the day you die is ridiculous**. You'll never ever have enough money, you'll never find a woman who just shuts up and has sex with you before cleaning everything up or friends who you don't grow a little bored of because you've heard it all before.

Happy birthday





*dear oh dear TK, the internet will never let you forget

**admitedly you haven't done this, only been a little emo
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 02:17   #7
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Re: Drifting towards 21

You could go to a gay bar dressed as a Pirate in hopes to get laid, maybe you'll even manage to get it up if the chance comes along.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 02:53   #8
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Red face Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
playing music on my laptop and showing videos on youtube to my guests.
ive done that once
it was called the youtube party
i had 2 (two) friends over, and we whatched a lot of videos while my girlfriend would grunte and told us to get tha feck out of the room once in a while( unfortunantly my computer is in the master chamber so it gets a little shitty sometimes)


i thought that was nice


however, the way you phrased it make my 'party' look rather depressing:crymeariver:

no wonder these friends never came back



ay ay


on my behalf i can say that when i started dating this girl which studied with me, all my so called friends ( which where the ones wich also studied with me[the diameter of my social life is quite expressive, isnt it?]) backed off, because they didnt want me to call me up to do stuff, knowing that i would aways be 'busy' with her so the time went by and i got more and more estranged and now i have no friends left from college

i graduated and i still have the same ammount of friends i had when i entered

and thats my great social achievement


in short: life is exactly like that. you have no one but you to make you keep going... so be nice on yourself. be a good company to you
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 08:55   #9
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Re: Drifting towards 21

As you get older, your Inner Circle of friends naturally decreases, people move on with their lives, move in with a girl/boy, change jobs and citys, go to uni, start to hang in different areas/pubs, find different interests etc.

As feelings of obligation to come to your 21st, its party, there is no obligation involved, they either say yes or no, reasons for not comming will be, i'm broke (after all it is january), i have other commitments and holding it on a week night for the workers would create problems too.

How you celebrate your 21st happily is your choice, do that which you wish to do .. 4 friends .. booze and a some *cough* dvd's is as legitimate as partying into the night with lots of people.


I did my 21st with 3 other girlys sat on my new undecorated lounge floor, chatting, drinking, eating and watching videos. ( i had just moved .. i had little cash, and little time)
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 09:50   #10
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Re: Drifting towards 21

My birthday is actually tomorrow, I'll be 23. I've never had a decent one.

For my 21st I, and disappointingly all my friends who lived with and next door to me, forgot my birthday - I'd like to think that it's because of the stress of exams etc but I felt like it was something deeper or that they didn't care. I got a call at 4pm local from my parents (who are in Texas, USA) singing me a happy birthday. As I listened to them singing on the phone I brought up my desktop calendar and noticed it was the 24th, and I felt so unbelieveably shit I almost cried. After they hung up I went next door and got the guys together, we went to a supermarket and bought some beer and BBQ crap, and had an OK night - but as Deffeh said - mine too was a very mediocre affair with nobody really too interested and my feeling shit because I, and more importantly, my friends had forgotten.

My 22nd I moved to a new part of the UK for my masters, Leicester, and became severely depressed. I didn't know anyone in the area and I didn't want to make any friends althought it would have been easy. I avoided all social situations (which is a far-cry from the usual me) and tried to busy my time with women, beer and games - and I wasn't sad about anything in particular, not lonely per-say (I still had visitors and classroom friends) - i completely understand what Deffeh means. I was on meds for a long time, and as chance would have it I met my girlfriend and joined her circle of friends which pulled me out of my slump a bit.

Today I'm off the meds (despite my doctor warning me that it might not be a good idea) and living with her in Blackpool, but I'm starting to feel the same again - I don't want her to be my everything, but for tomorrow, my birthday, none of my friends could come to visit. I've had to back-date this mediocre affair for the 17th February, and even then only 4 of them are coming. i'm also considering going back on the meds, but the only ones I foudn that worked for me have quite bad sexual side-effects. I wouldn't want to tell my girlfriend because she wouldn't understand (and would probably turn it around on me/herself saying "what have i done wrong" which always pisses me off) so I'm starting to wonder if I'm going to slowly slip into depression again (even though everything seems to be going great).

It is a chemical imbalance and sometimes there's nothing anyone can do, but at the moment I feel like I can't even get help.

Deffeh here's a big }e-hug{ , because I'm going through exactly what you are

x



For
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 16:27   #11
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Btw my 21st B-day i spend studying in a far off town ( it was saturday, and i had this huge exam on monday, and no one except my parents remembered and I was all alone.

And i boisterously flunked in the exam, with a notorious 4,2/10
Come to think of it... that was very ****ing miserable

my 22th was with my gf and 'friends' same with the 23th... they were allright
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 17:18   #12
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
not only was i listening to the new killers album on the way here, wondering if it was possible to write lyrics anymore vacuous and forceless than what i was hearing, thinking how i could do so much better, but i was also just daydreaming about rapeing the rude (but incredibly good looking) bar women here.

pick me up at 7.
Maybe if you become schizophrenic and i develop a sex drive and we do rape a few prostitutes we can call ourselves 'deffeh and the horns'.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 17:21   #13
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
So im getting older, i turn 21 on burns day.

I am desperately unhappy and not sure how to change things, as realistically im about to enter my prime and things, at least physical health wise, are only going to get worse. To review;
Bollocks. 21 is not a particularly great age to be and the only people who say it is are old people for whom the rose-tinted spectacles are distorting their memory. Most people are quite clueless at 21 (I certainly was; and I'm not making any claim for great enlightenment at 25, except for the realisation of how clueless most people are and always will be, including myself).

Physical health-wise, unless you are already some kind of Adonis, there's plenty of scope for improvement as you get older. Maturity brings different benefits, but they can outweigh simple youth provided you take reasonable care of yourself (of course, that's a big 'if', but my point is that there is no destiny of inevitable decline, at least for another 20 years or so).

Quote:
Every year i seem to get more and more disassociative. Severing ties, losing contact with people, remaining aloof, periodically falling out with people after convincing myself they are out to get me. Its bizarre, i do this internal witch hunt thing, in which i plan ahead long series of argument and detail anecdotal evidence which to use against a person.
What kind of people do you like? What characteristics do you find pleasing? And yes, you might find that you have difficulty dealing with people, but that does get easier as you get older. Call it maturity if you want; as you age you will begin to naturally relax.

Quote:
For my birthday im going to do the typical 'drink all day' thing, but probably just in the flat, because i dont want to trouble people to come out. The thing is as well, for all the people i 'know', the amount of people i even 'go for a drink with' is desperately small. I suspect my birthday will be me and 4 friends in the flat, and it'll be a mediocre occasion. The thing is, to try anything bigger would just be embarrassing. Im toying with whether to even bother asking my Glasgow friends to come up to Stirling, i dont want to obligate them, and i also dont want confirmation from a lot of them that i would go to their birthdays, but they wouldnt go to mine. Even more than that, i dont want anyone to spend money getting here / on me, for what, like i said, will be an incredibly mediocre affair, probably involving me playing music on my laptop and showing videos on youtube to my guests. I dont even know if i'll invite Dace up and when you're not sure if you want to risk inconveniencing Dace or not shit isnt good.
Life isn't about obligations. Going to see someone for their birthday is unlikely to be a major obligation on anyone that you know; on the other hand, because of that fact it does mean that some (or perhaps most) people may well have other things on. The point is that there is little to be lost in asking, and you shouldn't feel slighted if people say 'no'. I know it's a cliche to say that 'life's too short for worrying' or something like that, but it's true. Obsessing over perceived social tensions is a waste of time. Worrying about what other people think is often pointless, especially because most people spend 99% of their time thinking about the kind of stuff that is irrelevant to anyone else.

Quote:
This isnt to say ' i have no friends ' - i know plenty of people, i just find myself caring so little about what any of them think, say, do, etc etc that im under no illusion that i should expect them to do the same for me. When im 'on top of things', im reasonably good in social settings. But i dont care enough about keeping people happy, or keeping up appearances or anything like that.
Life is not about caring about people. Again, an illusion that is drummed into us during childhood and especially adolescence; the truth is that most people are far more self-absorbed than you could ever imagine. Friendship isn't some deep, cosmic connection, it's just a convenient way of spending time around people that you find bearable. In saying that you don't do enough to keep people happy, you're missing the point - you do as much as you should (i.e. fairly little), but you're under the illusion that there's something more. There isn't. Nobody really expects anything more.

Quote:
Ive also realised that the people i do keep in regular contact with are mostly pretty simple, and the relationships i own are very one dimensional. I surround myself with persons of mediocre intellect so it makes my slightly above the national average brain feed my ridiculous ego. I am the best student out of any of my friends in glasgow or stirling, for example - the ones that didnt drop out that is.
If that bothers you, there are ways of getting to know some smarter people, but I'm betting that you know that anyway.

Intelligence is not a linear scale, with some people higher and others lower. You are probably very intelligent in some ways (I don't post much on GD, but I read it a lot and your posts are amongst the more intelligent amongst a group that is probably skewed towards above-average intelligence already (yes, I realise what a terrible condemnation of the human race calling GD posters 'above average' is)). On the other hand, you probably have some deficiencies (and I don't necessarily mean the cliched 'smart but socially inferior' thing, I mean that there are probably genuine intellectual blindspots). You seem to be worried about the idea that there are other people who are intellectually 'better' than you in some ways; this is undoubtedly true, but you will be better than them in other ways. The best analogy I can think of is comparative advantage; the point being that you will never be the best at everything, and trying to be so is counter-productive.

Quote:
Mentally, im in a pretty bad situation in that i dont really have much of a fallback for when things go poorly. Especially regarding my family - who considering my mother has Clinical Depression, and my Auntie has Manic Depression (she was actually just committed a few weeks ago and her kids taken off her) are pretty terrible at understanding my aforementioned disassociative posture. They dont know im on meds, or how bad ive felt most of my life, because its easier that way. Even if i did for some bizarre reason want to share it, to do so would be selfish, considering the financial and emotional worries they have not just of their own, but due to the combined problems of two nutter families (the aforementioned auntie isnt the only one in a home or an institution). People keep dying too on both sides, and theres more to come in the near future i would suspect. I'll attend the funerals, show face, but its rather hard to be continually criticised for not being more family orientated etc when i feel.. nothing, towards other human beings.

Part maybe of my issue with family is its a tie you cant fully sever, and i hate being obligated to people. I really dont feel anything about any of them, except quite a lot of anger and resentment towards my mum.
I'm wary of offering any advice on this. My instinct is that you will probably feel better about this over time, as a product of greater personal independence. I dunno, I don't have any first-hand experience of this kind of thing as it relates directly to family. I don't really want to say anything for fear of simplifying or descending into banal self-help psychobabble.

Quote:
I havent had sex in well over a year and a half, and have never actually did the whole 'chase' thing myself, relationships i just sort of fell into. I have no sex drive. Combined with my complete distaste for and disinterest in the human race, my misogyny is at such a level that i cant really forsee me ever having a relationship again, especially given the typical role played by the man in the courting process.
Well, that's a somewhat self-fulfilling prophecy. I won't bother with the obvious psycho-spiel here (that you need to think about what really makes you happy, develop self-esteem etc.). I will only add that the belief that you either can, or should be able to, foresee anything more advanced than what to have for dinner is probably mistaken; a lifetime gives plenty of scope for unforseeable occurrences and the fact that you can't foresee them doesn't make them any less likely.

Quote:
Regards meds; im always aware from both the internet, and my immediate family that there are supposedly a significant portion of people who 'have it worse', their numbers timescales and doses produce a better resume. Part of the thing with depression is in some sort of horrible way you guard it and are even 'attached' to it. You are also very much aware that considering the scope of the illness, you dont really stand out from the crowd by being 'depressed'. Im probably better on them than off them, but i get lulls, like the last few days, where it just seems impossible to go on. If you havent experienced it, theres nothing that can explain the nightmare of knowing yourself you arent angry with anyone or anything, or upset about anyone or anything, but being unable to rationalise it as a chemical imbalance. I'd like to think that even now i'm reasonable rational and coherent enough to suggest that im not depressed about anything in particular, i just feel like shit.
I don't really want to give any detailed input on this, because I don't think I can offer any great first-hand experience. Nor do I want to say 'well, we've all had bad times' or something like that, though I can personally attest to having had some periods of time when I've felt depressed and lacked all motivation. As to what can be done, I suspect that the only improvement would come from addressing your problems. But you know that already, and I'm not really helping by pointing it out

Quote:
Recently ive been waking up in the night terrified someone is going to break in, have barricaded the door and what not, checked its locked on several occasions during the night. Today when walking to the bus stop i ducked when someone was walking towards me because i was so sure they were going to take a swing at me, the person looked at me like i was crazy. I went to the gym to try and get the adrenaline flowing, managed a 45 minute or so workout but quit due to apathy rather than tiredness. I did push myself pretty hard and lasted longer than i have before in similar mental states, but after a while parts of my body just wouldnt respond.
Exercise isn't really as simple as people think. 45 minutes sounds like a pretty good workout if you were doing reasonably intense exercise and pushing it for any longer than that wouldn't have been a good idea. The notion that exercise should only end once you're physically incapable of exercising further is quite daft.

Quote:
So,
Im getting older and i need to make some better choices in my life. I eat well, ive gotten help in the form of medication psychiatry and psychology, i exercise 5 or 6 times a week, i take vitamin tablets and olive oil capsules, eat my 5 a day, cut out the fizzy drinks again. Its just pretty devestating that i dont seem to be reaping much reward from any of the positive action ive taken.
Diet changes are rarely all that rewarding in the short term. It's more about not being left wheezing by small flights of stairs when you're 50 than about having boundless energy at 21. It sounds like you've got a pretty good setup as far as diet and exercise goes though. It's quite fun to be ahead of the trend on things like that; in a few years people will be asking what your secret is.

To sum up, I'd guess that your main problem is that you don't see yourself as a valuable member of the human race (oh god, that sounds like so much hippie bullshit, I'm vaguely disgusted with myself for typing it). I'd disagree with that, and I hope that you realise that you are probably a much better person than you think, and for reasons that you probably don't appreciate. Yeah, I know, that's not much help. But there's no magic secret, there's just a bunch of people making their way through life in the best way that they can.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 18:22   #14
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quite a few people here seem rather upset that their friends didn't remember their birthday. I can barely remember any of the birthdays of my friends or family and I only remembered it was my birthday soon when my mother reminded me two days before. I don't think it's one of those things people (young males in particular) generaly remember and will need reminding. If you just around hoping for everyone you know to remember then you're just asking for a fall.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 19:40   #15
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Re: Drifting towards 21

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 20:58   #16
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
I moved to Leicester and became severely depressed.
seems reasonable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Blue Moon-
Today I'm living in Blackpool, but I'm starting to feel the same again
You never learn ...
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 21:16   #17
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
i do this internal witch hunt thing, in which i plan ahead long series of argument and detail anecdotal evidence which to use against a person.

I do this sometimes, although usually only when someone has severely pissed me off. I like to think that when it comes to a face to face discussion I can argue a point better than most, but if I'm emotionally invested in what I'm saying (read: very angry) it all tends to go to shit. So I guess I prepare in advance to use my cutting rapier wit. Or something.

Anyway it's not THAT unusual I guess.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 21:55   #18
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Wink Re: Drifting towards 21

[quote=All Systems Go]Quite a few people here seem rather upset that their friends didn't remember their birthday. I can barely remember any of the birthdays of my friends or family and I only remembered it was my birthday soon when my mother reminded me two days before. I don't think it's one of those things people (young males in particular) generaly remember and will need reminding. If you just around hoping for everyone you know to remember then you're just asking for a fall.[/QUOTE

i dunno
its just one day
one day in a whole year!! it isnt much to ask for
write it down
put in the calendar
PDA
notepads
Journal
they are out there man
and they help you remember stuff.... if you are willing

in sum: it isnt too much to ask for, it really improves the "birthdayee" to get by on such a sucky day, and you can remember if you want. If you dont want to remember, its cos that people isnt of any priority at all.
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 22:50   #19
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
i dunno
its just one day
one day in a whole year!! it isnt much to ask for
I don't know about anyone else but I don't find myself thinking about other peoples birthdays very often, It's one tiny piece of information which is only valuable once a year so to constantly think of it would be such a waste of time. Plus, it's not only your birthday so remembering birthdays would become a massive effort if you had to go through a list every day to make sure you didn't forget your neighbours sisters sons dogs birthday.

Quote:
write it down
put in the calendar
PDA
notepads
Journal
they are out there man
and they help you remember stuff.... if you are willing
Most people I know don't have a calander and writing it down on a scrap of paper or in a notepad is going cause clutter and keeping it on the same page is rather impracticle.

Quote:
in sum: it isnt too much to ask for, it really improves the "birthdayee" to get by on such a sucky day, and you can remember if you want. If you dont want to remember, its cos that people isnt of any priority at all.
that's total bullshit, not remembering a frankly insignificant and unused piece of info on the right day of 365 is a non-issue. I honestly can't see what the big deal is in telling people your birthday is coming up. If you can't be bothered to mention it why should others be bothered to remember it?

Edit: If a husband forgets his wedding anniversary does that mean he doesn't love his wife and they should get divorced?
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Unread 23 Jan 2007, 23:56   #20
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Im probably better on them than off them, but i get lulls, like the last few days, where it just seems impossible to go on. If you havent experienced it, theres nothing that can explain the nightmare of knowing yourself you arent angry with anyone or anything, or upset about anyone or anything, but being unable to rationalise it as a chemical imbalance. I'd like to think that even now i'm reasonable rational and coherent enough to suggest that im not depressed about anything in particular, i just feel like shit.
I've had these feelings occasionally, sometimes it's when look at my past and been in despair due to wasting my adolescence at the computer (I've started socilaising quite recentely, before this I would never see my friends any time other than at school and occasionally during the day on weekends), at other times I just look at the work I am going to have to do over the next few years and just think "how the **** will I get through all of that?", it makes me feel shit for a while and then I just try to get on with something else.

Apparently Ketamine helps to tackle depression.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 00:19   #21
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Pull yourself together Deffeh.

If you don't care about yourself or your birthday how can you expect anyone else to?

Also maybe if you weren't so cynical and critical of everything and everyone (and a little more open minded and accepting) maybe you'd have better friends
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 09:12   #22
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Ketamine seriously made me think I had ended the universe the other day.

But most depression seems to involve incredible levels of self-absorption so I can see some logic in drugs which affect the ego (albeit temporarily) being used in such cases. Bit unpredictable though.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 10:50   #23
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Friendship isn't some deep, cosmic connection, it's just a convenient way of spending time around people that you find bearable.
While I don't neccesarily disagree with this, isn't this a bit "pessimistic" to think about the friendships you have with other people like this? Surely the fact that a decent friendship can endure alot of stress and hard times means that it's more than just spending time around people that you find bearable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
You seem to be worried about the idea that there are other people who are intellectually 'better' than you in some ways; this is undoubtedly true, but you will be better than them in other ways. The best analogy I can think of is comparative advantage; the point being that you will never be the best at everything, and trying to be so is counter-productive.
While this may be true, surely there's a difference between accepting the fact that there's people better than you and coming to realise you're just average at everything. Which is how I consider myself, I don't excel(sp?) at anything nor do I really have any more problems with anything than anybody else does, I'm not particularly goodlooking nor am I ugly, I'm not the smartest guy around nor have I ever struggled with my studies. Aren't you supposed to feel better than most people about something to be able to cope with life succesfully/walk through life with enough self-esteem?
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 11:32   #24
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
While I don't neccesarily disagree with this, isn't this a bit "pessimistic" to think about the friendships you have with other people like this?
I wouldn't say so. The people I am friends with are the people who make me feel good and who are fun to be around. Most friendships shouldn't need to endure many stresses (in normal conditions) unless you're both over-emotional nutcases. Sure, there will be some downs but these will be massively outweighed by the ups and so any cost-benefit analysis should be clear.
Quote:
While this may be true, surely there's a difference between accepting the fact that there's people better than you and coming to realise you're just average at everything.
It's very easy to become "above-average" at some things with a small amount of time invested. If you spend an hour playing chess every day, you'll be better than most people within a couple of weeks. If you spend an hour studying some obscure philosophy then you'll probably know more than most people do within that single hour. You carve out your niche, to a certain extent. No, you won't necessarily be the tallest/strongest/prettiest of them all, but you could easily become someone who knows more (or has experienced more) of a given field than the vast majority of people.

And your self-esteem shouldn't rely on hanging around with losers, either. That seems like a sure fire way to become more of a loser in most cases.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 11:52   #25
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I wouldn't say so. The people I am friends with are the people who make me feel good and who are fun to be around. Most friendships shouldn't need to endure many stresses (in normal conditions) unless you're both over-emotional nutcases. Sure, there will be some downs but these will be massively outweighed by the ups and so any cost-benefit analysis should be clear.
I mean when for example on of my friends would be down because his gf broke up, I wouldn't say "no sorry I can't hang with you cause you make me feel depressed and I don't have fun while you're like that, so solve your own problems". You're probably right about the cost-benefit analysis though (although it makes me feel a bit weird naming it with an economical term).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
It's very easy to become "above-average" at some things with a small amount of time invested. If you spend an hour playing chess every day, you'll be better than most people within a couple of weeks. If you spend an hour studying some obscure philosophy then you'll probably know more than most people do within that single hour. You carve out your niche, to a certain extent. No, you won't necessarily be the tallest/strongest/prettiest of them all, but you could easily become someone who knows more (or has experienced more) of a given field than the vast majority of people.

And your self-esteem shouldn't rely on hanging around with losers, either. That seems like a sure fire way to become more of a loser in most cases.
Yeah I didn't really mean in specific skills, I just meant overall, although I guess the comparison can be drawn to specific skills aswell, but then you should only hold into account the other people that also "train" in those skills. For example I train a martial art for a few years now, I'm not bad at all, but there's enough people that are better than me or that show more talent even in my club. I studied informatics and I have a decent job in the IT sector, yet there's tons of people that are better than me and could do my job better than me. Which doesn't mean I suck at the martial art or my job, I'm just average.

About the hanging around with losers, I've never done that, you probably weren't talking about me. But this brings up something else, for example my best friend gets all the girls' attention, surely that's not good for my self esteem either?

ps. Why do I have like 750 or so reputation points yet is my rep power 0? I tried to posrep milo for one of the posts inhere the other day and all I could produce was a gray blob.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 12:26   #26
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Re: Drifting towards 21

I think you might have to make 50 posts first. Not sure though.


That "You Are Gay" account confuses me though. T&F either has a severe split personality or we're being invaded by the homophobic element of the British government.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 12:30   #27
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Re: Drifting towards 21

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That "You Are Gay" account confuses me though. T&F either has a severe split personality or we're being invaded by the homophobic element of the British government.
It's Cormac Murphy O'Connor!
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 12:46   #28
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Re: Drifting towards 21

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That "You Are Gay" account confuses me though. T&F either has a severe split personality
He does, but he can't access the PA forums from his current place of work anyway.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 12:52   #29
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Interesting, I wonder who is registering gimmick accounts from gov.uk then. Tell him I miss him, we've been nine days without a T&F post
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 12:55   #30
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Re: Drifting towards 21

They are getting internet at their new dwelling tonight or tomorrow I think. \o/
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 13:31   #31
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Interesting, I wonder who is registering gimmick accounts from gov.uk then. Tell him I miss him, we've been nine days without a T&F post
I'd love it to be tony Blair.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 13:46   #32
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I mean when for example on of my friends would be down because his gf broke up, I wouldn't say "no sorry I can't hang with you cause you make me feel depressed and I don't have fun while you're like that, so solve your own problems". You're probably right about the cost-benefit analysis though (although it makes me feel a bit weird naming it with an economical term).
In my experience, when a friend is depressed the best thing to do is simply whatever you would normally do. It's not your job to solve their problem, except by being a normal friend and doing the normal stuff that friends do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
Yeah I didn't really mean in specific skills, I just meant overall, although I guess the comparison can be drawn to specific skills aswell, but then you should only hold into account the other people that also "train" in those skills. For example I train a martial art for a few years now, I'm not bad at all, but there's enough people that are better than me or that show more talent even in my club. I studied informatics and I have a decent job in the IT sector, yet there's tons of people that are better than me and could do my job better than me. Which doesn't mean I suck at the martial art or my job, I'm just average.
You're above average compared to most people. I don't think that there is really such a thing as 'overall' intelligence or skills. If you were hanging around with 'more intelligent' people, there would still be plenty of things that you can do better than they can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
About the hanging around with losers, I've never done that, you probably weren't talking about me. But this brings up something else, for example my best friend gets all the girls' attention, surely that's not good for my self esteem either?
Is it really that bad? Getting attention is something you have to do yourself; you wouldn't get any more attention if your best friend was entirely socially inept.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 14:11   #33
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharur
I mean when for example on of my friends would be down because his gf broke up, I wouldn't say "no sorry I can't hang with you cause you make me feel depressed and I don't have fun while you're like that, so solve your own problems".
I think that's more about being short-sighted than anything else. If someone consistently (i.e. in the long term) depresses me / gets on my nerves then I will try to cut them out of my life. I should hope the others do the same with me. Of course if someone is usually ace but are a bit down because their mum died the day before I'm not going to condemn them for it.
Quote:
About the hanging around with losers, I've never done that, you probably weren't talking about me. But this brings up something else, for example my best friend gets all the girls' attention, surely that's not good for my self esteem either?
Well, being the most beautiful man in the world I wouldn't know. But as Rob's said, being around someone who is cool / clever is probably going to have benefits - if he's got a fit girlfriend then she probably has fit friends who you're going to get to molest. In short : Synergy. Or cast-offs. One of the two.

Also, while it might not work with attractiveness, I've generally found that when a friend has achieved something cool it's increased my motivation to do better personally. Your idea of what a normal level of attainment is influenced by your peers. If all your mates are heroin addicts then that lifestyle is probably normalised to a certain extent. I think I'm doing "OK" career wise at least partially because I'm vaguely similar to what most of my friends have achieved. If everyone I knew was a CEO then I'd probably think I was pretty shit.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 19:44   #34
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Re: Drifting towards 21

I turn 21 in April, my girlfriend turned 18 last November.

I feel old
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 20:22   #35
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
then i heard some information about dropping levels of testosterone around the same time
I've been lolling for a good five minutes since I read this and unfortunately there is no end in sight.

Quote:
and i'm guessing it didn't increase the means by which you could achieve these ends? i.e. it increased your personal expectations but not your means to attain them.
this is a recipe for low self-esteem.
This is an incomplete analysis. Part of human means is the ability to motivate yourself, if you are motivated by external events then these external events do increase your desire and probably chances (given that we live in a relatively free society) of doing well. This is a recipe for real achievement.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 21:26   #36
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Re: Drifting towards 21

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Originally Posted by horn
you know what i meant though you giggling drunk.
I dislike this direction you've taken. It's reminscent of that horrible episode with muslim when he decided everything was due to biology. Some of the most inane debates I've ever seen ensued


Quote:
ok, if we say your increased expectations correlate with similar increases in your motivation, you might indeed succeed more. but if your expectations are increasing at the same rate as your motivation (and we're assuming success) then you're not actually going to feel any better, you're just going to have even higher success and even higher expectations. infact, assuming you have "natural" limitations (i.e. say you just aren't that great at maths/reading faces/running irrespective of how much motivation you have), you're going to start feeling worse.(diminishing returns etc).
Or maybe they increase less than your motivation. Or you could realise happiness isn't necessarily based on how many women you have sex with or how many material goods you can accumulate.

Quote:
so yes, it's probably a recipe for increased economic success, but no, it isn't a recipe for increasing your self esteem. atleast not in the long term.
I'd suggest that it helps lead towards a path which alters where you derive your self-esteem from. Personally I enjoy the fact I'm a rational (in the broadest sense of can use reason) individual who is relatively free to think and largely do whatever he feels like. Remember, it's all in your head!
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 21:40   #37
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
to an extent this is true with health/fitness, but not with beauty
Yes, but beauty is partly dependent on health and fitness (and also partly dependent on attitude). Barring some great physical deformity, most people are capable of making themselves look reasonably attractive, even if we can't all be movie stars or supermodels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i've always been pretty interested in this. i hear it a lot from people, particularly those post 30.
the thing is, when people claim to be more "relaxed" or "mellowed", they don't often offer a reason as to why. it's not often i get a rational justification for their change in feelings towards others. they just seem to care less.
then i heard some information about dropping levels of testosterone around the same time and how it has a similar affect of "mellowing" you. i.e. you don't so much overcome or transcend the distaste/disgust you once had for other people as much as you just sort of descend into quietist apathy. i'm not sure how i feel about this in terms of it being desirable or not but it certainly seems a little less edifying than what you're suggesting.
I've no idea what the cause of it is. My best guess is that it's a mixture of physiological stuff (hormones, yes, although I'm not sure that testosterone is the main one; the overall importance of testosterone is greatly exaggerated, partly because of the gender politics involved) and experience. Over-reaction to certain stimuli or situations is something that occurs less as you've had the experience of overcoming (or at least surviving) those situations. I guess that does make life a little less exciting, in the sense that driving is less exciting than riding a rollercoaster; the point being that driving will ultimately get you somewhere.

Perhaps it is somewhat apathetic. I certainly can't summon up the sneering resentment that I used to have towards those I disliked, mostly because I now think that there's good in most people, and that even if there were not, I would not be the best person to judge. I simply avoid those I dislike. I suppose it's worth mentioning that I am pretty laid back generally, so perhaps I'm unusual in that regard. You seemed to be suggesting that this might be a sort of resigned apathy, but it certainly doesn't feel that way to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
and i'm guessing it didn't increase the means by which you could achieve these ends? i.e. it increased your personal expectations but not your means to attain them.
this is a recipe for low self-esteem.
Most people are more cursed by low expectations than by inferior intellect or capacity to learn. And even if you were depressed by the success of others, the solution would still be to focus on self-improvement.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 22:19   #38
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
i don't think everything is due to biology. but i think a lot of it is. i know abstract notions such as how you view people on a platonic level might not seem so obviously affected by chemicalzz but i doubt you'd have the same reservations in relation to sexual attraction. i can't see any reasons why you should suppose such a huge dichotomy in relation to these two areas being affected by hormones etc. to me they both "feel" like rational decisions made with a sound mind.

another example of how much biology/hormones/neurotransmitters affect our "deepest" experiences/beliefs are the effects on them via drugs. it would seem odd to accept that these chemicals can affect us in the most profound ways possible (i.e. our perception of reality) while viewing our indigenous hormones et al as something unable to cause large changes.
Sexual attraction isn't really a "rational" area. And I don't have anything against the biological approach per se (after all it's either that or environment!) What I dislike is the bizzare approach that then ensues, with everything being boiled down to pointless fundamentals. On a long-term approach the universe will probably either end in a big crunch or heat death anyways so what does anything matter? You are, in a very narrow way, your genes but that doesn't really mean anything about what you can or cannot do or what you have to feel or enjoy.

Quote:
p.s. what kind of a messed up muslim promulgates genetic determinism?
I think it was just a nickname.


Quote:
well they might do, but i'm not sure why you'd expect this given that the supposed motivating factor here is the relative success of your friends.
Obviously it's only one of many factors which affect your self-esteem in different ways.


Quote:
obviously that would be optimal but if you were able to do that then none of this would much matter.
Maybe you should try doing that more often!

Quote:
maybe :/
from my experience, i just get incredibly depressed/anxious when around friends who are "succeeding" in life. especially when issues arise that highlight the differing lifestyles. i feel less alone around other failed human beings.
One of my friends is (I think) eight months younger than me and is a successful poker player worth about six or seven hundred grand. He has his own flat and drives a Lexus convertible. I can't say I feel depressed or anxious around him, he's just a friend of mine who I enjoy hanging out with. Maybe you should take up juggling so you have a skill that other people don't and then develop a very strong personal juggling-centric anthropic principle whereby the universe exists in order for you to juggle. That should shore up some self-esteem issues I guess.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 22:33   #39
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
I don't know about anyone else but I don't find myself thinking about other peoples birthdays very often, It's one tiny piece of information which is only valuable once a year so to constantly think of it would be such a waste of time. Plus, it's not only your birthday so remembering birthdays would become a massive effort if you had to go through a list every day to make sure you didn't forget your neighbours sisters sons dogs birthday.
If you happen to know 100 people (which is probably a tiny fraction of your friends/family/coleagues/et al) that gives us about 60 birthdays/year, meaning more than one B-Day a week on average. Hence, it is not a 'omg i have to mind this one specific day amidst 365!11" but more of a general concern. You think on the lines of 'who should i pay my compliments to'. You check your Notes, and there it is " Gary birthday´s, jan-25th' and you call him and you chat and have a nice time, then you hang up. You will be feeling better. He is feeling a lot better. If everyone did this, there wouldnt be people on the forums talking sad stuff like this. Help the world. Help yourself.


This is one these cases like the sentece 'humans are always asking themselves why arent they happy, while all the other animals can just be'. If you start dissecting everything - from social relations to the essence of love - sure you are going to find only egoistic and depressing things. The more you think about it, the more sucky it seems, and if you dont have the guts, dont go there.
This should be the motto for a lot of people
just 'be'


Quote:
Most people I know don't have a calander
Most people i know DO! How strange




Quote:
that's total bullshit, not remembering a frankly insignificant and unused piece of info on the right day of 365 is a non-issue. I honestly can't see what the big deal is in telling people your birthday is coming up. If you can't be bothered to mention it why should others be bothered to remember it?
if it is so unimportant, how do you explain this topic?




Quote:
Edit: If a husband forgets his wedding anniversary does that mean he doesn't love his wife and they should get divorced?
It means he is busy with stuff other than his wife. Other than that is a couple´s affair
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 22:53   #40
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
If you happen to know 100 people
that's a large assumption.

Quote:
(which is probably a tiny fraction of your friends/family/coleagues/et al)
that's an even bigger one.

Quote:
that gives us about 60 birthdays/year,
Maths isn't really your strong point is it?

Quote:
meaning more than one B-Day a week on average. Hence, it is not a 'omg i have to mind this one specific day amidst 365!11" but more of a general concern. You think on the lines of 'who should i pay my compliments to'. You check your Notes, and there it is " Gary birthday´s, jan-25th' and you call him and you chat and have a nice time, then you hang up. You will be feeling better. He is feeling a lot better. If everyone did this, there wouldnt be people on the forums talking sad stuff like this. Help the world. Help yourself
.

But who can be bothered with that? doubt I would feel better if I felt obligated to call someone on a specific day.

Quote:
This is one these cases like the sentece 'humans are always asking themselves why arent they happy, while all the other animals can just be'. If you start dissecting everything - from social relations to the essence of love - sure you are going to find only egoistic and depressing things. The more you think about it, the more sucky it seems, and if you dont have the guts, dont go there.
This should be the motto for a lot of people
just 'be'
What?

Quote:
Most people i know DO! How strange
Bully for you.

Quote:
if it is so unimportant, how do you explain this topic?
Anthropology. the birthday is a sociological construct and has no real meaning. Having a party when the sun is in roughly the same position as when you were born has only the value we place in it. It has the same objective value as having a party to celebrate your life every 27 1/12 days.

Quote:
It means he is busy with stuff other than his wife. Other than that is a couple´s affair
If a husband forgets his wedding anniversary does that mean he doesn't love his wife and they should get divorced?
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 00:01   #41
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Re: Drifting towards 21

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Originally Posted by horn
and i'm guessing it didn't increase the means by which you could achieve these ends? i.e. it increased your personal expectations but not your means to attain them. this is a recipe for low self-esteem.
I wouldn't use the word expectations as I rarely "expect" anything. It did increase my desire to do well though, which is in turn linked to my own personal will-power. For many things your own personal will-power will be the number one means you have to get what you want.

If I want to earn more money because my friend is earning more than me than I could go and get a second job, or I could put in more hours and look for a promotion, etc. In fact, I can't think of many things that I ever seriously could say I "want" which wasn't at least partially under my control. Sure, if I want to be the most beautiful boy in the world then day-dreaming then wanting it more is unlikely to have much of an effect. But then I am sensible enough not to dwell on these things, if they even occur to me.

Quote:
which is why it's a good thing to hang around with people of lesser or at least similar success to you.
Only if you're not planning on doing anything about it. If you want to do nothing with your life, then I would certainly recommend those with low levels of achievement. If however, you're the sort of person who would respond to a challenge then you should try to surround yourselves with people who will inspire such a challenge. Of course, there will be people who are better than you at a particular field (and always will be) but respecting a diverse level of intellectual fields is an important lesson to learn.

There are undoubtedly people with high self-esteem who maintain this by being a big fish in a small pond and continuously outshining their peers, but I'm not sure I'd like to be one of those people. Most of the people who have (imho) justified levels of high self-esteem surround themselves with other talented people who inevitably surpass them in certain areas.

Of those people I've encountered who did have real losers for friends I don't think any of them were particularly happy or had a particularly good self-image.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 01:31   #42
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Re: Drifting towards 21

When did All Systems Go become so lairy and argumentative?
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 02:00   #43
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
When did All Systems Go become so lairy and argumentative?
It's my latest effort to stem off boredom during my inexplicibly long bout of unemployment.

It's not working.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 06:20   #44
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Re: Drifting towards 21

I turned 30 a week or so ago. Life gets better, but then I was pretty happy at 21. Being a Marine, getting drunk, running around, Hawai'i, Okinawa, beaches, girls, clubs. It was good. I dunno, maybe it's the UK weather.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 09:05   #45
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Re: Drifting towards 21

I just hit my 21 at the end of last year. I'm a student, getting drunk, girls, clubs. Perhaps I miss the sun too. Suppose Hawai'i would be pretty fkin zen. Maybe I'll try drop by as an exchange student. Is there an uni there?
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 10:47   #46
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Re: Drifting towards 21

I am 21. Even though I am in a shit job (I'm talking about the pay and career aspects, not the bitches and the fact I don't do much) I am enjoying my life. I watch the villa once every two weeks, see my friends, go clubbing, go to the cinema, try and chat up girls. **** it my life aint perfect, but its what you make of it.

I fail to see how you can get so depressed and down and shit. It sounds harsh but I just dont understand it. No one else is going to feel sorry for you, so why feel sorry for yourself.

Find something you enjoy doing, go and do it?

Instead of pissing in a bin, why don't you go travelling for a month or two.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 15:13   #47
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
Is there an uni there?
Yes, the University of Hawai'i, Hawai'i Pacific University, etc. They all have exchange programs and a sizable international student population.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 15:44   #48
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
that's a large assumption.
hence the usage of the word "if"


Quote:
Maths isn't really your strong point is it?
how much should it be, statistically speaking?



Quote:
But who can be bothered with that? doubt I would feel better if I felt obligated to call someone on a specific day.
Sure, who will bother to say 'sorry' when you stomp on someones foot? Thats just commom courtesy



Quote:
What?
This says something similar to what I was trying to say, as i cant be bothered to expand on my original point

Quote:
Originally posted by tomkat
Also maybe if you weren't so cynical and critical of everything and everyone (and a little more open minded and accepting) maybe you'd have better friends
meaning that in relation to being critical and over analytical of everything, instead of just doing your best and being optimistic



Quote:
Anthropology. the birthday is a sociological construct and has no real meaning. Having a party when the sun is in roughly the same position as when you were born has only the value we place in it. It has the same objective value as having a party to celebrate your life every 27 1/12 days.
So? does it makes any real difference? Is it of any help to tell this guy who is on therapy for god knows how long because he keeps having erotic dreams with his mother that the fact that sons cannot have sex with their mothers is merely a social and antrhopologic constraint, and hence, he should not feel guilty and miserable? It does not change a goddamm thing!

We are animals that evolved under strong social cenarios. Being an outcast = death in most primates today, and evidence sugest the same of our ancestors. Not following 'sociological constructs', as you put it, is almost as bad as not eating, hence the evolutionary effect is about the same as not reproducing. If you have grown in a normal family, chances are that your birthday is going to be a very ****ing important day. And you are going to look up to that during most of your childhood.

This way, this harwired social scheme which is mounted in our brain is going to have this feed "Birthdays are important" which just wont wash off. You can Undermine it, you can say it doesnt matter, W/E, it still be there. Just like the aforementioned guy wouldnt be in any healthier mental state if he just run off with his acquiescent mother to a far off island.


In short, it does not matter if it is a social construct or not, as the affects are roughly the same. Our brains have evolved to such an uninimaginable size that food water and sex is just not enough. We need more to be happy. We need decent Birthdays. Thats were we are at.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 16:41   #49
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
how much should it be, statistically speaking?
Seeing as everyone has a birthday, I'd put the number at about 100. Give or take 0.

Quote:
Sure, who will bother to say 'sorry' when you stomp on someones foot? Thats just commom courtesy
that's an immediate issue which can be resolved straight away. If I then had to apologise to this person on the same day every year for the rest of their lives I probably wouldn't bother.

I'm in regular contact with my friends whose birthday I would know. the odds of everyone forgetting about it is quite slim so there's generally no problem. With people I don't see regularly or very often at all the need/desire to contect them on their birthday diminishes and to send a message may bring them some happiness but not getting into contact will not bring them unhappiness.

Quote:
This says something similar to what I was trying to say, as i cant be bothered to expand on my original point


meaning that in relation to being critical and over analytical of everything, instead of just doing your best and being optimistic
If I'm interpreting this correctly you are telling me to do the exact opposite of I feel should be done. I am not saying that forgetting a birthday or an anniversary or whatever is not going to upset someone but if that person feels so strongly about it they should tell the appropriate people.

Quote:
So? does it makes any real difference?
Yes it does. If we were not in a society with these events then this would not occur. Simple really.

Quote:
Is it of any help to tell this guy who is on therapy for god knows how long because he keeps having erotic dreams with his mother that the fact that sons cannot have sex with their mothers is merely a social and antrhopologic constraint, and hence, he should not feel guilty and miserable? It does not change a goddamm thing!
It depends on the situation. Not having sex with family members is not merely sociological in nature as having a child together increases of deformed children. Who are you to say that if the son and the mother ran away together and had a relationship that they would not eventually throw of the socially instilled negative feelings and have a good time.

Whilst this is evidently not a desirable option it does show that with enough time sociological constraints can be overthrown and in many cases this is a good thing. Negative attitudes to sex between unrelated, unmarried people used to (and still is by some) be seen as a sin. Constantly being told that sex is dirty and sinful can cause serious problems in later life (particularly for women) and even after marriage cannot enjoy it. Should we tell them that they should just accept feeling bad for no reason for the rest of their lives?

Quote:
We are animals that evolved under strong social cenarios. Being an outcast = death in most primates today, and evidence sugest the same of
our ancestors.
Neglecting the accuracy of this statement for a moment I would like to point out that we are not animals and can join forces to fight for social change.

Quote:
Not following 'sociological constructs', as you put it, is almost as bad as not eating, hence the evolutionary effect is about the same as not reproducing.
Justify this statement with one shred of evidence.

Quote:
If you have grown in a normal family, chances are that your birthday is going to be a very ****ing important day. And you are going to look up to that during most of your childhood.
I resent the idea of the normalfamily as being particulaly unhealthy and needlessly superiorat best, and prejudiced and bigotted at worst.

Quote:
This way, this harwired social scheme which is mounted in our brain is going to have this feed "Birthdays are important" which just wont wash off. You can Undermine it, you can say it doesnt matter, W/E, it still be there. Just like the aforementioned guy wouldnt be in any healthier mental state if he just run off with his acquiescent mother to a far off island.
So people are incapable of change and councelling is just a waste of time? thanks for clearing that up!

Quote:
In short, it does not matter if it is a social construct or not, as the affects are roughly the same. Our brains have evolved to such an uninimaginable size that food water and sex is just not enough. We need more to be happy. We need decent Birthdays. Thats were we are at.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 17:12   #50
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Re: Drifting towards 21

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
feeling shit isn't always simply a cry for help. it's like saying someone shouldn't feel crap about their entire family dying because it won't bring them back. it's true, but it's not exactly a realistic expectation.
I understand the points you make.

However, you (not neccesarilly you, just in general) are young, educated, free, single what else do you need?

Someone to spoon feed you happiness?

If I am unhappy I do something about it. I try and pick myself up and go and expose myself to real life. Life is never as bad as you make it. It's always bad at that moment, hell I thought I was going to explode the last week of writing my disseratation. I wanted to drop out of university. I wanted to **** the last 3 years because I was struggling with it.

But you know what, if I believed the crap that my head spouts out, I would of done so. But I did it. Yes it was hard. Yes I didnt get much sleep for about a week. Yes my diet consisted of Marlboro Lights and Coca Cola, however I got through it.

There's no point backing down, take on challenges. Don't get weak and stay strong.

Like I said earlier, no one actually truly gives a f*ck about you, other than yourself.

People said to me, but how Simon, how the hell do you pull? To which I tell them look if I don't back myself, no one else will. It is 100% true. If I don't believe I have the ability to meet young ladies, I certainly won't meet them. Why would anyone date me, when I wouldn't date me.

This has gone off on a random tangent.

While I am going off on one.

Birthdays?

How old are you all?

Are you 5 still? Are you incapable of getting together your friends, or do you need your parents to send out the Turtles Invitations and prepare the Goody Bags. Get a grip. Since I was 13 I was organising my birthdays and each year people tell me what fun they have. This surprise birthday crap is shite anyway. If you want to celebrate what is your birth then do something about it. I don't really give a crap whether it's my birthday it's just an exscuse to get together for a party.

And you know what? Each year I have fun.

It goes back to my philosophy, no one will give you anything in life, you have to make your own luck.

You are all intelligent young men. At your peak. Why you can't realise that it is only you who can forge your own destiny, only you who can control your sucess. No one is holding anyone back. Yeah f*ck the system man.

Seriously only you are holding you back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
I don't know if you do pills pig but if you have and you've had a "comedown" before, exactly how easy was it for you to "snap out of it"?

I don't. However I must question to use of pills when you are feeling depressed, down, emo whatever. I don't understand drugs to criticise or preach. I understand why people use them and respect that.

However I can imagine the situation that you describe. If I was in a "comedown" I would think of the great time I head when I was feeling ecstatic. I wouldn't dwell (or least of all try to) in the comedown.

It is easier saying that. I am fully aware that I would feel all emo and shit and I am sure I couldn't cope with it, but if comedowns were bad I would try and get myself out of them.
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