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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 19:44   #1
Dace
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Hypothetically Speaking

In a hypothetical situation we have:

Person A (Worker)

Person B (Student)

Organisation X (Council Tax office)



A has to pay council tax (and if s/he lives alone they only pay 75% of the full rates).

B doesnt have to pay council tax (and if s/he lived alone no council tax would have to be paid on the property).

When A and B live together A still gets a 25% reduction.



Now what i want to know is "If A declared to X that they had moved back home to live with their parents (who already pay full council tax and as such wouldnt have to pay more) leaving just B in the propery (according to X's records) but A DIDNT ACTUALLY MOVE is there any way of A being caught out by X?"

I'm thinking of organisations data files being shared etc (eg the bank).

Does anyone know about this (im sure somebody here worked for some kind of housing agency [Dante?]).
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 19:45   #2
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

BTW according to A's driving licsence they live with their parents anyway (incase this was one of the agencys who's data was cross referenced).
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 19:50   #3
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

The government knows everything. Big Brother is watching you, and all that.

(Serious answer: probably not, but I wouldn't do it anyway, as you'd probably be locked up if they did find out.)
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 19:59   #4
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
(Serious answer: probably not, but I wouldn't do it anyway, as you'd probably be locked up if they did find out.)


It's not me it's a "friend" wink wink.



Anyways i've been thinking ...

It says that you are to notify the council of any changes within 30 days or something.

As such if my "friend" was caught couldnt they claim they had just moved back in within the time scale allowed?

Even if A was being watched or something are X REALLY going to watch for a whole month (and they'd need to as A could just say he was visiting his sister B for a day or so if they had documented evidence of A at the address on just one occassion).

Also bank stuff etc could be explained by "just forgetting" to tell them of your detail changes ("it wouldnt be a big deal to you" you would say "as my sister still lives there so i would still get my stuff whenever i saw her" etc).
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:17   #5
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

I don't think the Council Tax office go out of their way to confirm the occupancy details of each and every person. They certainly don't go ask banks where you live (I'm not even sure of the legality of that because of the data protection act).

The only thing I can think of that they would check as a matter of course would be the electoral roll & housing benefit applications (which are both sort of managed by the local authority anyway).

However, you probably do need to supply some kind of proof (perhaps a letter from the persons parents) that they've moved in somewhere else. Would they be wiling to lie about it? They would (of course) be committing fraud. It'd be a lot easier to get away with this if neither person had moved in yet, and you simply held the tenancy in one persons name. As it involves a change, they'll request some kind of evidence.

99% of the time the council tax office rely purely on information supplied by occupants/ex-occupants/landlords/etc. They're too lazy/incompetent/busy to actually do any investigating themselves.

Disclaimer : I don't deal with council tax myself directly. When someone moves out/in to one of our properties we generally inform the local authority ourselves tho.
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:22   #6
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
It's not me it's a "friend" wink wink.



Anyways i've been thinking ...

It says that you are to notify the council of any changes within 30 days or something.

As such if my "friend" was caught couldnt they claim they had just moved back in within the time scale allowed?

Even if A was being watched or something are X REALLY going to watch for a whole month (and they'd need to as A could just say he was visiting his sister B for a day or so if they had documented evidence of A at the address on just one occassion).

Also bank stuff etc could be explained by "just forgetting" to tell them of your detail changes ("it wouldnt be a big deal to you" you would say "as my sister still lives there so i would still get my stuff whenever i saw her" etc).
They'd probably ask A's parents what had happened, so A would have to be absolutely sure that his parents (and anyone else involved, for that matter) would lie for him when questioned by the authorities.

However, from what I gather, lots of people con the authorities out of money, and the vast majority aren't caught, so I suppose the probability of being caught is pretty small.

I still wouldn't risk it, though, for the reason I gave earlier. It just isn't worth it, in my opinion. Money is less important than freedom and a clear criminal record (even if they didn't lock A up, the fraud conviction would probably ruin his entire life).
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:23   #7
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

The Flat in question is owned by A and B's parents.

There is no "occupancy contract" etc.

A has no intention of applying for any benefits.

A has neither registered to vote or actually done so (although he is apparantly able to do so at both his parents and flat address).

Does any of this make a difference Dante?



Thanks btw Proteus and Dante for helping.
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:27   #8
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

My friend works in a council tax office. If she comes online I will ask.

Shes told me that the council isnt half as good at hunting down non-payers as they would have us believe. From what I recall she said moving to another area would be enough to stop them bothering to hunt for you (assuming you weren't silly enough to give them a forwarding address)
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:27   #9
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
They'd probably ask A's parents what had happened, so A would have to be absolutely sure that his parents (and anyone else involved, for that matter) would lie for him when questioned by the authorities.


Seriously?

Wouldn't they just take A's word for?

A's parents live in a different council area btw.
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:28   #10
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebany
My friend works in a council tax office. If she comes online I will ask.

Shes told me that the council isnt half as good at hunting down non-payers as they would have us believe. From what I recall she said moving to another area would be enough to stop them bothering to hunt for you (assuming you weren't silly enough to give them a forwarding address)


A wouldnt actually be moving remember.








(Thanks btw)
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:31   #11
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
Seriously?

Wouldn't they just take A's word for?

A's parents live in a different council area btw.
I can't imagine them spending an awful lot of time investigating it, but even a simple phone call ("Hello, this is Bob from Xshire Council. Does your son live with you?") might blow A's story if his parents answered in the wrong way.
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:33   #12
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

OK, those things are in your favour.

So it's simply a matter of then telling the authorities they're moving out. As it's not a private landlord in the property they're moving to (i.e. their parents house) I suspect they'll simply request a letter from your parents (along with perhaps some kind of bank statement/other proof) to show they've moved.

As I say, I don't deal with this sort of thing myself. However, one thing we do deal with a lot is people's housing benefit. To outline :

Person A (unemployed) lives with their son or daughter (who is 17). They get full Housng Benefit.

Person A's son turns 18. The authorities then deduct from housing benefit (because, in theory, they should be contributing to the rent (now that they're 18). Person A then tells the council their son/daughter has moved out.

In such a situation (which is similar to, ahem, "your friends") they then have to supply evidence this has happened. This is usually : a letter/document from where they've moved to, some kind of bank statement/utility bill/etc showing the new address.

You could of course simply change the persons bank details to their parents address (I presume it's not too far, so picking up mail from this address wouldn't be too onerous.

As I say your problem is not the council having some sort of super investigation and checking with the bank themselves. They're lazy and understaffed, they'll just ask for some proof. Give them a call (you could just say you're making general enquries and not give your address, etc) and ask what kind of proof they usually ask for.
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:33   #13
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
I can't imagine them spending an awful lot of time investigating it, but even a simple phone call ("Hello, this is Bob from Xshire Council. Does your son live with you?") might blow A's story if his parents answered in the wrong way.


A has 2 brothers who live with his parents so hopefully everything would work out fine :)
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Unread 6 Mar 2004, 20:35   #14
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
As I say your problem is not the council having some sort of super investigation and checking with the bank themselves. They're lazy and understaffed, they'll just ask for some proof. Give them a call (you could just say you're making general enquries and not give your address, etc) and ask what kind of proof they usually ask for.


That's a genius idea ta muchly :)
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Unread 7 Mar 2004, 00:26   #15
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
"If A declared to X that they had moved back home to live with their parents"
erm even better just say that person A has moved out of the house. change the council tax to B's name.

There not going to serch the entire country for A!!!!
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Unread 7 Mar 2004, 05:45   #16
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

Remember A, his plight and this thread in my absence* plsta.











*im going to bed
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Unread 7 Mar 2004, 10:38   #17
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Re: Hypothetically Speaking

basically dace, its silly easy to get away with, they cannot check with any external organisation due to the data protection act, and they very rarely even bother checking at all
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Unread 7 Mar 2004, 12:52   #18
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Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dace has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Hypothetically Speaking

But rr will they check for A at the new address he gives (eg phone the house etc)?
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