Responses from Jolt to your questions.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

example:

jolt competes with company x

jotl publishes what it spends on things

company x then says "damn we spend to much on that, look what jolt gets away with spending"

company x then moves to lower costs

company x gains a competitive advantage

unless company x then tells its customers that it is less efficent than jolt it isn't going to loose customers.

hence unless all companies plan on telling the world detailed information then jolt cannot even if it wanted to

*This is a made up example and bares no resemblance to any actualy companies or customers.*

LMAO

Sorry kal, but this is VERY amusing since you miss out things like USP's and customer brand loyalty and adds very little weight to the cofidentiality.

I will take the IT project I am working on as an example. We are looking for a new system and one of the criteria we are selecting on is company accounts. Unsuprisingly all of them produced accounts and made them available to us (their customer).

Statutory accounting shows very little.

If thats not enough security the type of information the community is asking for doesn't actually provide any commercially sensitive information. Simply its interesed stakeholders wishing to ensure the best for the community.

To Biffy I would be quite willing to advise you of the ways in which to make extra cash to ensure low pricing and the best possible service for customers. However that doesnt really negate that we should be able to see a clear and consistent plan of how PA will develop mid term (1-3 years) and long term.

Marketing may get "some" new players but real issues need addressing to ensure community is behind you and amrketing is a good filler but is not the basis of a cohesive strategy which we as stakeholders can buy into.

I seriously think that jolt have things they don't want the community to see. Anyone can cobble some costs together, but the reasoning behind this is not to cuss you or lambast you, but to help us understand where the money is going and maybe for the community to help you developing a better business model for you and for us.

I am suprised by jolt's stance on this issue. It baffles me why any company who si trying to grow and develop a game would want to keep there customers so out of the loop. Thsi basically shows that yet again Jolt provides very little information to the community on anything and definitely have a very poor communication links to the community.

[Kal]

did u know pa has competition that isn't free...

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

did u know pa has competition that isn't free...

Did you know they will be working to their own cost model so probably dont give a stuff about what you do?

Seriously Kal come up with something better or don't bother.

[Kal]

rumad tbh i don;t see why prices shoudl change anyway - the current price for a credit is as low as it should ever need to go imo - what should be being debated is what credits should be used for. Should free accounts be much better? what effect would this have on the game? if we had an sms system how shoudl it be priced, how many would use it etc. The people who talk on the forums saying they will use things or do certain things isn;t neccessarilyl that important - there are approximatly over 2200 paid accounts at the moment and a similare number of free ones. We need to know what a decent sample and percentage of them would and would not pay for as well as knowing what will make them continue to play.

imo the whole issue of costs is a distraction form the real issues - all any of us need to know is that pa needs 2 things to survive and grow - money and players - so feel free to comment on how we can get them - i think it would be quite obvious that at least some of the time jolt as a compnay puts some efforts into cost cutting, as we have sene clear examples of that in pa (server reductions).

So can we get back on to the real issues now please

[wakey]

Some of you are pretty deluded imho. How many companies do you seriously know who would just hand over their accounts to you. Unless its a PLC or your a shareholder you would get laughed out of the building if you went to request them.

Now we may be customers but we arent shareholders in Jolt. As much as we think we are entitled to their accounts we arent and we simply have no need whatsoever for having access to them. After all what would releasing them really acheieve, nothing apart from be used to help to spread wild rumours and for others to use to say "We could run it for free" both of which ultimitly damages the community more than it helps (figures can be used to prove anything when used selectivly - see any Micheal Moore Film for proof of this - people can eaiserly choose one item to show jolt are 'milking' us and it wont take long for the community to all believe is the case and while the likes of idler/hinch ect are no doubt trying to act in PA's intrest them saying "we could run it for free" makes people question why they are paying)

If Jolt are to be more open its much better to be doing so on Issues that really do effect the community ie the gaming issues rather than Jolts finicial situation which isnt our business.

Oh and why both offering your services, Rumad, You may have 7 years experiance as an accountant BUT somehow I think Jolt alreay have their own accountants and experts whom are advising them on what to do. and I doubt you coudl tell them anything they dont already know

[mist]

Originally Posted by Kal

did u know pa has competition that isn't free...

oh, i'm intrigued to know who jolt counts as competition?

the only ones i can think of are those with upgrade type things, who i'd class as free with upgrades, whereas i'd class pa as p2p. otherwise, you could mean thing like outer reaches, but iirc they've got a player base of a couple of hundred ad run a vastly different game. hyperiums likewise, i think is still p2p, but runs a vastly different game. or are you meaning wider things such as eve or swg?

-mist

[mist]

Originally Posted by Kal

i think it would be quite obvious that at least some of the time jolt as a compnay puts some efforts into cost cutting, as we have sene clear examples of that in pa (server reductions)

interesting... would you be willing to share who came up with that idea? and possibly a little of the background thinking that went with it.

-mist

[mist]

wakey, as i've said repeatedly... i don't particularly *expect* jolt to reveal anything, at all, ever - mainly based on my belief that they're not particularly good at running pa. however, were they good i believe they would, as i don't think they've got a lot to loose by doing so and a fair amount to gain. hence i suggested it, what with this new spirit of contructive criticism that's going around

-mist

[Ramihyn]

Originally Posted by Rumad

Marketing may get "some" new players but real issues need addressing to ensure community is behind you and amrketing is a good filler but is not the basis of a cohesive strategy which we as stakeholders can buy into.

I finally bothered to look up the exact translation of "stakeholder" and now i am puzzled. Maybe i misunderstood it but on which base do you think you are a "stakeholder"? Upon buying a credit for a game?

Originally Posted by Rumad

I am suprised by jolt's stance on this issue. It baffles me why any company who si trying to grow and develop a game would want to keep there customers so out of the loop. Thsi basically shows that yet again Jolt provides very little information to the community on anything and definitely have a very poor communication links to the community.

From your previous replies i got the impression that you indeed understand what you talk about, but paragraphs like this puzzle me. Biffy replied several times into this thread and geoff supplied info through Kal but you seem to insist to get detailed financial info when they just dont want to reveal it. Either i totally missed something in between (which can well be) and you have bought some shares in simtech or jolt or whatever, or you are way overstepping your boundaries as a simple ordinary player/customer.

[biffy]

Rumad - your offer to help is appreciated but we aren't looking for an accountant currently.

I'll say again - we aren't going to comment on, or give out, figures. If some individuals want to assume that is because we have something to hide then that is their decision. Given the way those people have acted in recent times I doubt anything Jolt could say would change their minds until they got their way. Which isn't going to happen.

[biffy]

mist - Decisions over cutting servers have been due to a few things, such as the game no longer requiring the same number of servers to run or the development shifting more to Spinner than the volunteer coding team which meant they didn't require a dedicated dev box. Some of these suggestions have come from PA Team themselves not long after I started getting involved with Planetarion, I believe you made one before you quit the team, whilst others have been common sense due to the natural course of events.

Should these situations change in the future Jolt would of course look at re-allocating boxes back to Planetarion as is necessary.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Ramihyn

1) I finally bothered to look up the exact translation of "stakeholder" and now i am puzzled. Maybe i misunderstood it but on which base do you think you are a "stakeholder"? Upon buying a credit for a game?

2) From your previous replies i got the impression that you indeed understand what you talk about, but paragraphs like this puzzle me. Biffy replied several times into this thread and geoff supplied info through Kal but you seem to insist to get detailed financial info when they just dont want to reveal it. Either i totally missed something in between (which can well be) and you have bought some shares in simtech or jolt or whatever, or you are way overstepping your boundaries as a simple ordinary player/customer.

1) a stakeholder is anyone with a vested interest - supplier, customer, shareholder, employee etc etc etc. We are customers if you didn't realise.

2) I find there inability to understand where I am coming from confusing. I don't believe there position to be correct or valid with myself working in a commercial environment.

Some information is definitely public domain and should be divuged. For instance I would not expect to see or enquire about any of other jolts activities nor about there current cash flow position. Some is just basic data which we may be able to suggest was to improve things. the only way to know for sure is by them providing a little information.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by biffy

Rumad - your offer to help is appreciated but we aren't looking for an accountant currently.

I'll say again - we aren't going to comment on, or give out, figures. If some individuals want to assume that is because we have something to hide then that is their decision. Given the way those people have acted in recent times I doubt anything Jolt could say would change their minds until they got their way. Which isn't going to happen.

Firstly I don't particularly want to work for you as no offence, but you pobably couldn't afford me. However I was willing to give some free advice and act as a liason as many in the community don't have the financial expertise that I possess.

Your rather unwitty reply just makes me realise what a low esteem you hold you customers in.

I accept your position that you are not willing to go any further, just want to state that I think thats rather a poor attitude to have. The community essentially is paying its own way and deserves more information than you are providing. Spinner may not have had the commerciality for running PA but at least he kept us informed.

We aren't mushrooms, I dont like being kept in the dark or fed on shiet.

[biffy]

The only way you could be privy to the information you want to see is if you were an employee, not as someone who just signed an NDA to give Free advice.

And we do understand where you are coming from, we just don't agree with your point of view. I suggest you read wakey's post.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by biffy

The only way you could be privy to the information you want to see is if you were an employee, not as someone who just signed an NDA to give Free advice.

Thats your call, but please keep your sarcasm to yourself.

At the end of the day I made an offer, no need to be so insolent.

Afterall you are meant to be representing your company here and comments like that help nothing.

[biffy]

It wasn't sarcastic. It's the factual situation.

And being a customer doesn't give you the right to insult PA Team or alledge Jolt is somehow acting improperly in business by not disclosing the information you want to know, both of which you have done in this thread.

[Smudge]

the customer is always right

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by Smudge

the customer is always right

Just if your BBW and have bought 70 planets, off witch you use 30 as your farms.

[Ramihyn]

Originally Posted by Rumad

1) a stakeholder is anyone with a vested interest - supplier, customer, shareholder, employee etc etc etc. We are customers if you didn't realise.

I know exactly what i am - i just couldnt believe that YOUR foundation for all the claims and things said in this thread was paying a few bucks to play a game.

I agree with Wakeys "deluded" comment.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by biffy

It wasn't sarcastic. It's the factual situation.

And being a customer doesn't give you the right to insult PA Team or alledge Jolt is somehow acting improperly in business by not disclosing the information you want to know, both of which you have done in this thread.

I have a view, and I am allowed to speak as i see fit, unless ofcourse your saying everone that plays should love you, your company and pa team?

It wont happen

As for your comment - perhaps you should be careful of how you word things in future.

FYI I have not said PA team or jolt have acted inappropriately. I find yur actions to be poor, but that is my view. Take it or leave it, but unless better communication and more transparency is given don't expect me to change it anytime soon.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Ramihyn

I know exactly what i am - i just couldnt believe that YOUR foundation for all the claims and things said in this thread was paying a few bucks to play a game.

I agree with Wakeys "deluded" comment.

agree with what you want, but a the end f the da I explained what meant by stakeholder.

You may thin I am deluded, but I am not the only cusomer who is concerned. I simply put it to jolt that i could translate some basic information without really exposing there true goings on, but to add to them that they have not abusing the cost structure of the game or cashing in on the game at the games detriment. Also it would have trown in an "independent" view of thre finances and from my experience could have been helpful.

Now you can say I am deluded, or that it was a helping hand to sort things out. Either way I geuss your view is your view.

You could look at it lie this though. Since PA has started Players have been the cornerstome of the structure. Most if not all infomation we wanted to know was given to us when we requested.

The trouble is for me that jolt have closed off nearly all communication and a simple answer that the community was being charge cost would have been fine. The next part is I am not offended if they say no to me offering help in acting as liason and giving avice, but I don't expect to be treated with such flippant comments as biffy made to me.

If thats deluded then I guess I am - I would prefer to think I just care.

[Blacknova]

*tries to drag convo back on topic, and tosses his own opinion on the fire*

Biffy, no offence, but you might wanna do a course in community management at some point soon, before the primary customers (who generally post on these forums) perception of jolt becomes the "ivory tower" image and alienate the few people that think this situation can be turned around.

Rumad, I am equally aware of the stakeholder principle (I'm not an accountant like you, but my knowledge of Business Studies is fairly extensive), however a single voice is not liable to bring about or enforce change, bear in mind that the forums are little better than a soapbox for people to hop on top of and blow their trumpets. I honestly think you're wasting effort since anything remotely linked to company finances unless it *has* to be declared, is kept extremely confidential (the last few limited companies I sysadmined for all required me to sign 12 month post-employment NDA's since I had unmitigated access).

------

Back to what Kal was discussing, namely the Free + Upgrade vs. P2P issue. I think the mistake made was to compare PA to things like Eve / CoH / Swg ... Where due to the level of server communication / style of game things HAVE to be paid for up front, and by the looks of it the powers that be decided that PA was in effect a web based MMORPG and thus put it into that category. In doing so Jolt appears to think that these economic models can be transitioned into an area where it simply does not fit, advance payments to actually play the game simply do *not* work when compared to the competition around, this isn't a CS server we're renting, nor is it WoW or Planetside.

The games which have got it right in this particular field are the ones who followed the free + upgrade principle, whereby the basic game is fully playable, and the upgrades change things (example : Dark Galaxy pops up a nag screen every 10 pages, you have to upgrade to get rid of it). There are plenty of options available which would "encourage" the user to upgrade without anihilating the free accounts to the point they are of an unplayable level.

Therefore I would reinvestigate the whole economic model which has been imposed on PA, and instead of repeating the usual corporate mantra of "the commercial experience" actually put their thinking caps on, research the competition, see what they do right and wrong, and take notes and see what lessons can be taken from these games. Instead of trying to lower prices (which still maintains that initial bar to entry) they should look at alternate tactics which may well allow them to raise the prices up slightly by improving the experience they give their customers, assuming ofc that they can make it so the customer *wants* their product and not is forced to pay for it.

Nova

[Rumad]

I know i am wasting my time now, but unfortunately becuase of the size of the company they have limited returns to companies house.

Its a shame but the fact is that they have to give little more than a indication of there turnover and limited balance sheet return because of the low level of turnover.

The information I have asked for could have been as limited as "PA gets everything at cost" which isnt commercially sensitive at all. But they haven't even done that. Unfortunately this is the problem. the lack of transparency, the lack of communication and a general disregard for the community in general. I myself wasn't going to get anyhing out of what I offered, just thought I could help (maybe more fool me, but thats me).

As for the reinvestigating the economic model I fully agree as I think there approach has been rather limited to date, perhaps with some dialogue with the community. At the end of the day all I yu, mist and anyone else that posst is to se there community flourish and to not see it disapear.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

I know i am wasting my time now, but unfortunately becuase of the size of the company they have limited returns to companies house.

Its a shame but the fact is that they have to give little more than a indication of there turnover and limited balance sheet return because of the low level of turnover.

The information I have asked for could have been as limited as "PA gets everything at cost" which isnt commercially sensitive at all. But they haven't even done that. Unfortunately this is the problem. the lack of transparency, the lack of communication and a general disregard for the community in general. I myself wasn't going to get anyhing out of what I offered, just thought I could help (maybe more fool me, but thats me).

As for the reinvestigating the economic model I fully agree as I think there approach has been rather limited to date, perhaps with some dialogue with the community. At the end of the day all I yu, mist and anyone else that posst is to se there community flourish and to not see it disapear.

for the last few weeks i have been investigating the free vs paid issue - you would be surpised how many of the people from the community that objected when i suggested maybe making free accounts better. And I didn't just ask famous people or people from big alliances, it was a pretty reasonable cross section

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

for the last few weeks i have been investigating the free vs paid issue - you would be surpised how many of the people from the community that objected when i suggested maybe making free accounts better. And I didn't just ask famous people or people from big alliances, it was a pretty reasonable cross section

why not as as many people as possible?

in fact why not publish to the community what was found?

Hell why not even communicate that thast what you had done?

Don't sound like it was that detailed or well documented so far.

[wakey]

The problem with all the other forms of turnover Nova is like Biffy said, they are generally all speculative turnover models. They are all based upon assumptions that a certain amount of people will take the 'upgrade' rather than knowing a certain percentage will. This turns any company from being one that proactive to being reactive which is never a good situation to be in, after all most of PA's current problems stem back from its time under FS which was run in a very reactive manner. One thing Jolt have done is stablise PA and have been taking it foreward in small steps, this maybe isnt as quick as we would all like, or even as quick as they initially promised but its moving forward and they are doing so because they arent being forced to sit back and wait for the cash before they can do anything but rather they have a model that allows them to predict whats coming in and take steps before hand in the full knowledge of what they have to work with

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Rumad

why not as as many people as possible?

Perhaps because how do you do this, open the discussion up on the forums? Yeah cos thats a great way of getting a balanced cross section that doesnt skew your results

Originally Posted by Rumad

in fact why not publish to the community what was found?

Hell why not even communicate that thast what you had done?

Don't sound like it was that detailed or well documented so far.

Perhaps because it was probally done unofficially as something external of PATeam to better his understanding for when such discussions are raised. Posting the results would give the findings an 'OFFICIAL' stamp due to his position when they simply arent offiicial findings or views of PATeam

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

why not as as many people as possible?

in fact why not publish to the community what was found?

Hell why not even communicate that thast what you had done?

Don't sound like it was that detailed or well documented so far.

becuase i haven't finished yet - obviously the details will be published at some point as at the very least its going to be in the manual for next round.

i'm sure you understand that discussions likes this tend to start small and then once some kind of vague consenus is reached on the direction at least then things can be widened. There are many stages to go yet before a finallised idea could be published for discussion, mugh more input is needed first.

Regardless of what we decide though it will be hated by half of the community i'm sure.

But tonight I will further attempt to contact the most under represented group in Planetarion - the free planets. I will attempt to find out a) what they would like improved in the game, b) why they have not upgraded c) what the differences between free and paid planets should be in their opinion.

EDIT also note that even once i have found out what i think the solution should be it needs to be checked with jolt and PaTeam to check it won't adversly affect our income and hence future development and marketting plans. The point being we are trying to make decisions that will not have to be changed.

[mist]

kal, a word of warning.

if you ask people that kinda thing, odds are they'll give a gut reaction rather than thinking it through, which may not result in a particularly accurate picture.

for example, a few rounds back i seem to remember free accounts being introduced in to the game a couple of weeks or so in to the round - basically to introduce more roids in to the game. and paid people were bitching about how they'd paid for the game and others hadn't, but were still going and taking the roids. go figure :/

-mist

[Kal]

Originally Posted by mist

kal, a word of warning.

if you ask people that kinda thing, odds are they'll give a gut reaction rather than thinking it through, which may not result in a particularly accurate picture.

for example, a few rounds back i seem to remember free accounts being introduced in to the game a couple of weeks or so in to the round - basically to introduce more roids in to the game. and paid people were bitching about how they'd paid for the game and others hadn't, but were still going and taking the roids. go figure :/

-mist

this is precisly the problem for exmzpla if we decided to make the game free but have paid extensions - our research might show that we would get the same income or higher, but that income might never appear. People will often say they will spend money - actually makeiing them do it is the hard part.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by wakey

Perhaps because how do you do this, open the discussion up on the forums? Yeah cos thats a great way of getting a balanced cross section that doesnt skew your results

Perhaps because it was probally done unofficially as something external of PATeam to better his understanding for when such discussions are raised. Posting the results would give the findings an 'OFFICIAL' stamp due to his position when they simply arent offiicial findings or views of PATeam

Wakey stop replying to posts which aren't aimed at you and leave them to kal to answer thank you. He can easily answer questions by himself.

As for your flippant remark about forums - there are lots more mediums than a forum posting mechanism and more accurate mechanisms. Now kindly stfu.

As for kal - its been a known problem for many months that the lack of communication has been a issue. I wil eagerly await your research and your findings.

Needless to say you are doing this off your own back and its great to see you are, but at the end of the day this doesn't detract from the fact that Jolt are simply not communicating enough. Whether it is costs or strategy or even just saying hi they are anonimous and at worst downright secretive.

The researc has to avoid subjectivity kal so i will wait to se what you did and how you did it before forming an opinion.

[Kal]

biffy is actually around a lot rumad, on forums and on irc. He even actually plays the game. At the end of the day though announcements made by Pa Team should be taken as announcements from jolt. It doesn't matter who makes the announcement as long as the message is conveyed.

I certainly don't think it would be normal for Geoff to be directly involed with the community, thats not really the normal things for the owner of a company to do.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

biffy is actually around a lot rumad, on forums and on irc. He even actually plays the game. At the end of the day though announcements made by Pa Team should be taken as announcements from jolt. It doesn't matter who makes the announcement as long as the message is conveyed.

I certainly don't think it would be normal for Geoff to be directly involed with the community, thats not really the normal things for the owner of a company to do.

Well bully for that - when I think the situation improves I wil give you a shout.

Maybe Geoff doesn't have to get involved. Something as simple as Jolt hour would probably suffice for now. However I still think there are serious communications issues that need addressing.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

Well bully for that - when I think the situation improves I wil give you a shout.

Maybe Geoff doesn't have to get involved. Something as simple as Jolt hour would probably suffice for now. However I still think there are serious communications issues that need addressing.

what do u think we have been doing - since the BBW stuff there have been more announcments made than ever before - there will from now on be regular round 12 development updates - we are working with the people in #PA to help promote interest in the game.

The problem with a jolt hour is like we saw with forests questions very few good questions would be submitted that would actually get decent answers simple becuase there really isn't that many interesting things to ask. However we do plan that when a "CH style" thing is reintroduced that biffy will be present to answer jolt related questions. I'll try to see if we can get something going on the "CH style" thing we are thinking about.

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

what do u think we have been doing - since the BBW stuff there have been more announcments made than ever before - there will from now on be regular round 12 development updates - we are working with the people in #PA to help promote interest in the game.

The problem with a jolt hour is like we saw with forests questions very few good questions would be submitted that would actually get decent answers simple becuase there really isn't that many interesting things to ask. However we do plan that when a "CH style" thing is reintroduced that biffy will be present to answer jolt related questions. I'll try to see if we can get something going on the "CH style" thing we are thinking about.

Jolt hour would not have to be "just" questions.

The thing about that sort of forum kal is you are expected to inform people of what is happening.

The announcements to date have been poor and no one posts any goings on within jolt so hardly harbours a feeling of being part of a bigger community.

You say there have been more announcements than ever before just remember its not the quantity its the quality. To date all the announcements this round have taken like 2 minutes to write and tell you nothing.

I don't particularly want to hear what you have to say alone kal - if there was a CH style hour I think we would be wasting our time. What you need is something which can deliver regular information and will be used effectivly. Atm you have 3 mediums and none are particularly used well.

You have stated that previously you felt there was bad feeling towards PA Team and Jolt. The root of that is the fact that all we want is to know whats happening. You do that and you will get much more community spirit towards both parties. Ignore it (as you have mostly with this thread apart from the political answers) and you wont get any further than we are already at.

[Blacknova]

Originally Posted by wakey

The problem with all the other forms of turnover Nova is like Biffy said, they are generally all speculative turnover models. They are all based upon assumptions that a certain amount of people will take the 'upgrade' rather than knowing a certain percentage will. This turns any company from being one that proactive to being reactive which is never a good situation to be in, after all most of PA's current problems stem back from its time under FS which was run in a very reactive manner. One thing Jolt have done is stablise PA and have been taking it foreward in small steps, this maybe isnt as quick as we would all like, or even as quick as they initially promised but its moving forward and they are doing so because they arent being forced to sit back and wait for the cash before they can do anything but rather they have a model that allows them to predict whats coming in and take steps before hand in the full knowledge of what they have to work with

Those assumptions are usually conservative, and more often than not correct. The economic model applied to PA is the same one applied to MMORPG's, and I can say with a very high level of certainty this is "as good as it gets" under such a model. There's not enough here to sell the game on a pure P2P basis, even you have to be able to see that.

If the model doesn't work, then fix it, it's not a difficult concept, but it might *gasp* force people to be creative in how they design, develop and sell the game to the community. There's a scary thought, offering people incentives that they want in exchange for money, and the people who don't wish to enjoy those benefits don't feel like second class citizens

Like I said, go take a look at some of the competitors in the field who do free + upgrade, and see how they've managed to make it work, and then ask the question "What can we do in PA to get that same level of incentive and enrichment to get the upgrades rolling in?"

Nova

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

Jolt hour would not have to be "just" questions.

The thing about that sort of forum kal is you are expected to inform people of what is happening.

The announcements to date have been poor and no one posts any goings on within jolt so hardly harbours a feeling of being part of a bigger community.

You say there have been more announcements than ever before just remember its not the quantity its the quality. To date all the announcements this round have taken like 2 minutes to write and tell you nothing.

I don't particularly want to hear what you have to say alone kal - if there was a CH style hour I think we would be wasting our time. What you need is something which can deliver regular information and will be used effectivly. Atm you have 3 mediums and none are particularly used well.

You have stated that previously you felt there was bad feeling towards PA Team and Jolt. The root of that is the fact that all we want is to know whats happening. You do that and you will get much more community spirit towards both parties. Ignore it (as you have mostly with this thread apart from the political answers) and you wont get any further than we are already at.

this may sound shocking but your post gave me an idea \o/
/me needs to get home from work and think some more

This is the announcements list - it only includes passport/forums announcements rather than motd based announcements that would only be of interest to current players e.g. manual changes. I personally think some of them are pretty informative, and there will obviosuly be more to come in the future on development updates for example. There will also be some announcements on some competitions we have planned. Now you are welcome to suggest other things we should keep the community inforemd about, but I had assumed that development, events, and offical team updates would be the main ones.

Blixxard & an update 3/08/2004 By: A2
Speedgames revealed 24/07/2004 By: Spinner
Development Update 23/07/2004 By: Kal
Counterstrike Tournament 08/07/2004 By: A2
Karmulian, Kal & Xontas 28/06/2004 By: A2
The Mentor Team 27/06/2004 By: Kal
Round 11 started, good luck to everyone 18/06/2004 By: Spinner
New Ship Names 17/06/2004 By: A2
Round11 - Officially Open 09/06/2004 By: Karmulian

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Blacknova

Those assumptions are usually conservative, and more often than not correct. The economic model applied to PA is the same one applied to MMORPG's, and I can say with a very high level of certainty this is "as good as it gets" under such a model. There's not enough here to sell the game on a pure P2P basis, even you have to be able to see that.

If the model doesn't work, then fix it, it's not a difficult concept, but it might *gasp* force people to be creative in how they design, develop and sell the game to the community. There's a scary thought, offering people incentives that they want in exchange for money, and the people who don't wish to enjoy those benefits don't feel like second class citizens

Like I said, go take a look at some of the competitors in the field who do free + upgrade, and see how they've managed to make it work, and then ask the question "What can we do in PA to get that same level of incentive and enrichment to get the upgrades rolling in?"

Nova

maybe the key question here is do they get more upgrades as a percentage of total users then we do - atm we have about 50% upgraded - how is that in the other games? (I honestly have no idea)

[Rumad]

kal without wanting to be rude I read ever announcement thread before putting what I put incase I missed anything. And unsuprisingly I didn't.

Ok you can't put much about some of te isues thee, but that was my point. The threads themselves lacked any real content. If you want to introduce ppl thats fine, but at the end of the day they provide little or no information.

You want to move this on get the Team writing about how development is going (not just one paragraph), what new features (wet peoples appetites), Have biffy to have a hcat with geoff about what they can say about the future of PA.

What news can be provided on the business plans to encourage bigger membership. Whats these future marketing plans that you all talk about and no one elaborates on.

Seriously you need to start giving some real information to settle people down. If you don't you never will get the harmony you want.

People don't need detailed analysis, but more meat then you or jolt or anyone else have given of late.

At least something I have said has sunk in if its given you an idea ;D

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rumad

kal without wanting to be rude I read ever announcement thread before putting what I put incase I missed anything. And unsuprisingly I didn't.

Ok you can't put much about some of te isues thee, but that was my point. The threads themselves lacked any real content. If you want to introduce ppl thats fine, but at the end of the day they provide little or no information.

You want to move this on get the Team writing about how development is going (not just one paragraph), what new features (wet peoples appetites), Have biffy to have a hcat with geoff about what they can say about the future of PA.

What news can be provided on the business plans to encourage bigger membership. Whats these future marketing plans that you all talk about and no one elaborates on.

Seriously you need to start giving some real information to settle people down. If you don't you never will get the harmony you want.

People don't need detailed analysis, but more meat then you or jolt or anyone else have given of late.

At least something I have said has sunk in if its given you an idea ;D

to be honest i would have thought it would be quite clear that as development progresses the announcements would get meatier and meatier, although i conceded their is a small error in the latest announcement, it was meant to ahve some more appetie wetters, but some nits of it must have got lost by my bouncer when i pasted it to A2 - the information will be included in the next announcement probably in the next few days depending on how many new things there are to say. Ideally i'd like us to be able to give weekly development updates from now until round 12 development is all done and dusted, but as u said not much point in having an announcement if there simply isn't much to say.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Rumad

.

As for your flippant remark about forums - there are lots more mediums than a forum posting mechanism and more accurate mechanisms. Now kindly stfu..

There's none which allow it to easierly be opened up to a wider group due to the fact pretty much every mass reply system has the same problem as the forums.

I'll expand. First of all theres two deleivery methods you can use for quick feedback from the masses, these are either closed or open . Lets deal with open first

Open are use of things like forums and irc. Here you post your view and everyone is able to read and respond to what your saying. These simply arent good for a balanced view because the people who take part are generally the more active, this means mainly one set of players ie the big alliance players. Smaller players dont turn up or turn up and dont input anything for the following reasons

1. The arent active at the time of it taking place (IRC only)
2. The big players come across arragant and condensing which sacres smaller people from giving their input
3. They dont believe they matter

Closed Responce methods can remove some of these problems but not all and it brings its own. Closed responce methods are normally thinks like questionairs or polls. The problems they have are

1. They dont believe they matter
2. People dont have time to answer so put it off and forget
3. People vote with their heart and put no thought into it (Generally polls only, if you have to answer a question with a written responce your more inclined to think about the question)

Both systems also have a common problem of producing so much data its hard to quantify

Now the way Kal is doing it is an accepted way of carrying out studies. You dont ask everyone but choose a sample that represents the community. You then carry out interviews, interviews are a closed method but which allow for a time thats suitable to be arranged and allows the interviewer to make it clear that their views are just as important. The interviewer can also make sure that if they think the answer hs been rushed and has no thought in it that the person then takes a few mins just to make sure thats what they really think once they have thought about it.

This is a method thats slower, and doesnt get everyone view but produces less but higher quality data thats easier to quantify and thus easier to act on

[kaos]

interesting figures :]
cc costs: wasn't it jolt who abandoned the payment centers
400 pound for a dual p3 with 1 ghz ? LOLS i can get that for about 39 euros (and a traffic cost < 1 euro per gigabyte)
while i think traffic is not really that much as i can remember some time in r3 (or 4) pa team mentioned there peak was at about 12 mbit/s (and that was with a _few_ more players then pa has now)

and some stuff about the ndas mentioned earlier in this thread
wtf can jolt expect that someone works for free for them and then has to sign an nda which basicly says: "all your code belongs to us" and "you may not do your job [where you get money from ... not from jolt ...] to some customers for the next 6 months"
anyone working under such conditions is either a real masochist or must be swimming in money ...
(and i woun't comment the code quality of r10 here )

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Kal

maybe the key question here is do they get more upgrades as a percentage of total users then we do - atm we have about 50% upgraded

That is a fairly moot point, as PA is hardly playable with a free account. In fact, it surprises me that there are an equal amount of free accounts to paid ones to begin with, rather than the other way around.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Leshy

That is a fairly moot point, as PA is hardly playable with a free account. In fact, it surprises me that there are an equal amount of free accounts to paid ones to begin with, rather than the other way around.

that was my point though - if they ahve a fully playable free account - and get a similar percentage to us then maybe it is something that is worth a real serious look at.

[Leshy]

Originally Posted by Kal

that was my point though - if they ahve a fully playable free account - and get a similar percentage to us

If they have a fully playable free account, they will have a much lower percentage, considering more people will find it worth signing up for a free account and continue using it, as opposed to those who pass on the option to play PA because free accounts are extremely limited.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Blacknova

Those assumptions are usually conservative, and more often than not correct. The economic model applied to PA is the same one applied to MMORPG's, and I can say with a very high level of certainty this is "as good as it gets" under such a model. There's not enough here to sell the game on a pure P2P basis, even you have to be able to see that.

If the model doesn't work, then fix it, it's not a difficult concept, but it might *gasp* force people to be creative in how they design, develop and sell the game to the community. There's a scary thought, offering people incentives that they want in exchange for money, and the people who don't wish to enjoy those benefits don't feel like second class citizens

Like I said, go take a look at some of the competitors in the field who do free + upgrade, and see how they've managed to make it work, and then ask the question "What can we do in PA to get that same level of incentive and enrichment to get the upgrades rolling in?"

Nova

You cant help but have them feel second class citizens, after all ANY upgrade worth paying for will generally have to have some game advantage or offer something they cant get elsewhere.

For example the SMS system, its a good idea as it was back in r3 when it was going to be implemented but the community has shown that they wont stand for an idea that gives what they feel is an advantage to people who have the most money to blow (not that the system was going to do that anyway as it was going to be something along lines of having to set two trigger levels one being the eta and teh other being fleet size. Once an attack launched and bot hythe triggers were triggered it would have messaged you that you has hostiles incoming. This if anything would have added more tactics because the key for attackers would be to attack in a way that wouldnt trigger that person triggers and the key for the defenders would be to simply get the levels right, too high eta setting and your be alerted to the mistake incomings ect that will be recalled anyway, too low and you will not ahve enough time for defence. Same with size too high and small attacks will get through, too low and your pick up the insignifcant ones and waste credits) As such what are we left with for SMS alerts is reminders, which simply dont offer anything you cant do yourself with a simple alarm clock..

There are obviously a few things that you can have that might be useful for one off small payments, things like access to the history page or ability to have a planet image and profile that you can change and people can view (kind of like the Staduim stuff in ML) but these arent features you can charge too much for as its mainly cosmetic stuff and doesnt enhance the gameplay. Its not even as if you can realistically charge for removal of banners and popups that you could place on free because lets be honest anyone whom is bothered by it really will jsut install googlebar or such like to block them.

The things which will really get people to pay are things which help your game, for example again with ML its the friendlies that people will spend money on as this means gate receipts as well as improved players stats which help your game, and these things are basically the same as PA now as its paying to enhance your game potential

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by wakey

There's none which allow it to easierly be opened up to a wider group due to the fact pretty much every mass reply system has the same problem as the forums.

I'll expand. First of all theres two deleivery methods you can use for quick feedback from the masses, these are either closed or open . Lets deal with open first

Open are use of things like forums and irc. Here you post your view and everyone is able to read and respond to what your saying. These simply arent good for a balanced view because the people who take part are generally the more active, this means mainly one set of players ie the big alliance players. Smaller players dont turn up or turn up and dont input anything for the following reasons

1. The arent active at the time of it taking place (IRC only)
2. The big players come across arragant and condensing which sacres smaller people from giving their input
3. They dont believe they matter

Closed Responce methods can remove some of these problems but not all and it brings its own. Closed responce methods are normally thinks like questionairs or polls. The problems they have are

1. They dont believe they matter
2. People dont have time to answer so put it off and forget
3. People vote with their heart and put no thought into it (Generally polls only, if you have to answer a question with a written responce your more inclined to think about the question)

Both systems also have a common problem of producing so much data its hard to quantify

Now the way Kal is doing it is an accepted way of carrying out studies. You dont ask everyone but choose a sample that represents the community. You then carry out interviews, interviews are a closed method but which allow for a time thats suitable to be arranged and allows the interviewer to make it clear that their views are just as important. The interviewer can also make sure that if they think the answer hs been rushed and has no thought in it that the person then takes a few mins just to make sure thats what they really think once they have thought about it.

This is a method thats slower, and doesnt get everyone view but produces less but higher quality data thats easier to quantify and thus easier to act on

II would reply to this but i really can't be arsed as I find much more drivel in yur posts than anything productive.

First thing to do is have a consistent list of questions. Then you make sure those questions are closed to limited replies.

When you have those you then sen to say all 5k players, sme will respond, ome wont.

You then compile the results using a spreadsheet and you have some market research as to why people don't upgrade.

You can ask it over irc. ask it on the forums (probably inappropriate though) or via email or if your super smart a websitewhich compiles the data for you!

The reason why you close the questions is simply to ensure yu get consistent and applicable reasons.

Suprisingly this will give you a reasonable understanding of how to market pa to pa players. Suprisingly you can get the type of questions from most text books and unsuprisingly you get market data for your sector (age, likes, dislikes etc etc).

As for not turnng up - if thy aren't around I doubt they are playing.

[Kal]

you will actually get skewed data is you pa mail all the planets

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Leshy

If they have a fully playable free account, they will have a much lower percentage, considering more people will find it worth signing up for a free account and continue using it, as opposed to those who pass on the option to play PA because free accounts are extremely limited.

The funny thing about all this really is whats the thing that making free account least playable this round, its the lack of galaxy status. Now why do we not have a galaxy status on free accounts, because of spies. Who is it who complains about spys, those whom we see in the big alliances who co-incedently are also the people whom complain they want a round thats free so the numbers go up. You ahve to wonder do most people from a big alliance background actually have any clue about what they want cos it doesnt seem so at times

[Rumad]

Originally Posted by Kal

you will actually get skewed data is you pa mail all the planets

who mentioned PA mails?