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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 17:26   #101
JonnyBGood
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by aif View Post
jbg, yes a etd fleet fi fleet will be able to roid a cath FI/CO but the moment you add some Spiders tothat that change ALOT. this stats set wont allow you to only get one class of ships

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2ptb9zsg9zxnfls


and just a side note, i made a calc on round 32 ur stats, where you could not build anything agianst that cath CO fleet

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dkf6y39e4z9qe2u cath vrs terran
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=bgk9n2943eye3i5 CATH vrs cath
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=vwgxgzsgy5v8fie cath vrs xan
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ydbi2pa7147ws7g cath vrs zik
You. Are. Mentally. Deficient.

Stop. Posting. About. Stats.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 17:30   #102
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
You. Are. Mentally. Deficient.

Stop. Posting. About. Stats.
ok explain to me why iam Mentally Deficient.

i made the cath only 2x biger (urs was 3x) with a small amount of DE still a co attack fleet you used as def but with a few spider

i have to say you need to look at the stats as a whole not just 1 part.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 17:48   #103
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

The point is what you can roid. Being able to launch on anyone 3 times your size and roid them is sick. If you split your fleet in half like you've done then you won't be able to roid anything and the game will become completely stagnant. While it is true that quite often you'll only need 1 def fleet that's missing the point. Quite often that 1 def fleets just isn't there. What your actual first calc says is that an etd with a fairly reasonable fleet can only just about be stopped by a cath with a fairly unrealistic fleet (you need to have roughly similar value division of your fleet as an emp player if you're trying to play a non-xp whoring planet whereas yours has 60% more in beetle than viper) who gets a good def fleet from a cath fr/de planet that can only be sent ingal or via prelaunch def (which as pointed out above isn't impossible but certainly has decreased efficiency).

Then half of your other examples are insane. Fair enough caths can roid caths 50% bigger than them and xans like 60-70% (which is still way different from 200% bigger). But with terrans and ziks you have them building retarded fleets splitting their resources equally between fi/co type def and fr/de type def.

Essentially both of your examples, while obviously "true" in the literal sense, are totally unrealistic.

What exactly do you expect everyone to build bits of everything and then roid nothing? You'll end up with value planets being really difficult to play and getting roided by xp whores. Meanwhile you'll have to roid at your bash limit for 15% caps and shit.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 17:53   #104
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

as for your stats JBG.

cath co, with 7% less emp. would still be a power house low eta and takes all that targets them.

etd FR emp is init 2, dont understand why you would let the cath roll over etd so easy.

xan co - with Shadow looks cool, but it will be tomuch cath around i think.

zik, is the only class that you dont allow to stay one class attack why ?

terrans would be easy mark for etd/cath and maybe even xan as ,pulsars would get 2x-3x raito over the Revenant
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 18:01   #105
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by aif View Post
as for your stats JBG.

cath co, with 7% less emp. would still be a power house low eta and takes all that targets them.
No it wouldn't. You don't get how emp works. 7% is a massive difference. You think it's linear and there'll be something like 7% less effectiveness if you go cath and therefore 7% less caths in the t100/200 etc. This isn't true. It's non-linear because it involves feedback. You have less efficient ships which are less likely to land meaning you get roids less often meaning you don't have as many ships which again are less efficient meaning you're less likely to land. I'm not saying they'll become shit but that's not the point.

Quote:
etd FR emp is init 2, dont understand why you would let the cath roll over etd so easy.
They have an anti-fi/co killship in the same class. So for zero loss roiding of etd fr planets you need to emp their entire fleet.

Quote:
zik, is the only class that you dont allow to stay one class attack why ?
I don't really know what you're saying here? The zik cr fleet can roid stuff. Sure it's not what the **** awesome but zik, despite not that many people going for it, this round was fine, in a similar sort of mode, and I'd say it's improved from last round's iteration.

Quote:
terrans would be easy mark for etd/cath and maybe even xan as ,pulsars would get 2x-3x raito over the Revenant
Well, not really. You can put the harpy's e/r really high versus the beetle, as this only affects the harpy the impact elsewhere is negligible. Etd fr would be pretty good at roiding ter bs/fi fleets yeah but you're talking about an only emp fleet versus a a primary attack fleet in one class which isn't emped that efficiently. Terran de would still be "fortressed" so I don't see how you can possibly describe it as easy for either caths or xans.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 18:13   #106
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

/quote The point is what you can roid. Being able to launch on anyone 3 times your size and roid them is sick. If you split your fleet in half like you've done then you won't be able to roid anything and the game will become completely stagnant /quote

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1no8l3k46kz3lvq

stagnant is very wrong, yes i agree that alot of roiding will happen as its alot harder to def. but attacking will never stop even if ur attack fleet is spread alot. but this is the problem when you have alot of ships and ship typs. the idea is that ingalaxy def is important agian.
but i was thinking of being MO/DC next round, and thats going to be hard with these stats. but FUN `?

and i think that the xp system as it is sucks its to flawed ;-) so xp whores would allways come.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 18:21   #107
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

You're not getting how it develops. We even saw it this round, soloing became markedly easier than in the past couple of rounds. More ships make it harder to roid. If people's fleets start to tend that way cath, as an emp heavy race, get butt****ed.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 18:49   #108
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

with 2 pod stats, you can pick a fleet and if it becomes a bad choice, its relatively easy to start building another fleet and possibly be okay. this does not always pertain to terran/cathaar however, since their main advantages are having value in set fleets. (an example being terran de this round where the bs was way superior in terms of attacking. those that switched early were okay, those that did not were bored and received less incoming due to smaller sizes in most cases.)

with 3 pod stats, that choice becomes more difficult - especially with the set thats on the beta right now. each fleet has a way to stop it, or to attack it (for the most part). you're better off picking a combination, sticking to it, and continuing to attack the people you can hit easily while accepting whatever defensive flaws you have.

hope that makes sense, i kinda felt like i started rambling after a while.

oh, and heres a calc with equal value fleets. your calc was 200k less value of beetle than avenger (take it however you will), aif (and everyone else). Click.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 19:50   #109
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
oh, and heres a calc with equal value fleets. your calc was 200k less value of beetle than avenger (take it however you will), aif (and everyone else). Click.
What on earth are you talking about, you've stuck in like 1.35 million value worth of gnats. You can't call that equal value unless you're insane. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=7dug0jgpscd8203 this is a real calc with same value fleets and same value distribution (I'm being generous here as etds won't need the same value in vindicators).


To be honest there's just a lot going on in your stats, probably more possible interactions than my r30 set and certainly more than last round. I mean start off from this point. Cath fr/de looks shit to me. You get 100% owned in the ****ing face by ter fr. That said ter fr is a pretty shitty choice as you have to build some kind of anti-de as well. It's also got tons of ships which fire before it, pulsar, sentinel, wraith, clipper, assassin and the same init vindicator. Are either of those therefore good ideas? This isn't an easy question to answer. Can we point at certain things that are really good though? Well, hard to say, I think etd fi/bs looks decent but emp is so weak that's a very questionable move at best. Xan phant/sent plus cr looks really good, basically nothing non-emp fires before you, bar your own pk which I don't see being built much, basically why the **** would you build it? Try to roid other xans when you can roid most other things anyways? This could quite easily lead to massive virtually unattackable xans. You've, I reckon, seen that and tried to compensate with low efficiencies but I'll honestly admit I have no idea at what point this will be enough and I sort of doubt you do either, and no, beta testing won't show this point, only a full round will.

The issue for me is that there a bunch of potential problems. As is, just a couple of those working out could really **** things up.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 20:33   #110
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

JBG, I somewhat like the changes compared to last round. I'm not too happy about the Terran changes though.
I'm not a big fan of fortress planets. You did weaken Terran De a bit, but I'm not sure how that will work out. I don't see the proposed Bs fleet as a viable alternative. 3 races now have kill ships that fire before the Dragon (Xan Shadow, Zik Pillager, Etd Peacekeeper), meaning later in the round you can only attack Cathaar (solo). Changing Wyvern T1 to Fr means that it's no longer powerfull enough to hit Terran De. Until Xan get Shadows, you can take out bombers, but that's about it.
I think Terran is just weaker this way and it didn't need to get weaker.

The Cath fleet looks ok to me.

For Xan Fr I think it will be hard to find a viable target with all these Cr/Bs targetting them at good initiative. The Co fleet is not better than it was, but these stats might make other races build more Cr/Bs fleets, thus creating opportunities for the Xan Co. It will be interesting to see how they do.

It's a shame you had to reverse the Beetle targetting, because that makes the Corsair useless as flak for the Cutlass. Ziks will find it harder to steal Cath ships and will have trouble attacking with their Co (which I think was the best fleet Ziks had last round). The Fr can still only realisticly land on Cathaar once people develop Cr/Bs. And it still is easy to defend (Drake, Bolt Thrower and Spider aren't even targetted).
That leaves the Cr fleet as best option, which faces the same problem the Ter Bs has: Too many great Cr/Bs, meaning fewer viable targets and lots of people that can defend (esp. Pirates and Shadows will be a problem).
Zik looks less attractive to me than last round.

Etd Fr looks ok-ish. The Bs are ok, but if you go for them you'll create a big fi/co hole for xan and Cat to go through. Peacekeepers are very vulnerable, esp when they encounter Pillagers or other peacekeepers.

There's a lot of changes with emp, like reversed targetting, so I'm curious how you'll implement those changes in terms of emp efficiencies.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 20:40   #111
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I just don't agree on zik being so weak. Yeah there is one change that hurts them but zik is the one race where increased efficiencies can fix everything because defensively you end up really strong and you can get some awesome steals late on.

Terran you're right the bs fleet might be a bit underpowered still. However how much will those ships actually be out there? I think the etd fr fleet will be preferred to the bs. If you go for zik cr you also have to build pirates so how many pillagers will you build? Also will that many xans go for the shadow? It is good but xan fr is a bit of a fortress if you like that style. The shadow and the pk are also both t2 versus bs. And I never really saw terran bs hitting ter de planets last round to be honest.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 21:28   #112
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What on earth are you talking about, you've stuck in like 1.35 million value worth of gnats. You can't call that equal value unless you're insane. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=7dug0jgpscd8203 this is a real calc with same value fleets and same value distribution (I'm being generous here as etds won't need the same value in vindicators).
i meant it had equal value in beetle and avenger - which i actually said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
oh, and heres a calc with equal value fleets. your calc was 200k less value of beetle than avenger (take it however you will), aif (and everyone else). Click.
the gnat were there to show that the beetle emp'd more value of etd ships at t2 than the etd ships did at t1. (and in your calc, you still have 160k more value in avenger than in beetle.)

edit: and you must REALLY be crazy talking about adding in too much value of vindicator because people will not need that many. in that case you have also been more than very generous with the amount of cathaar viper considering that their efficiencies are more than ~30% on T1 and ~50% on T2 better than the vindicator.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 21:53   #113
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Yeah because, no value etd will end up with the same amount of value in avenger/vindicator whereas value caths will end up with the same in beetle/viper. Yes it's more effective once it fires, if it wasn't I wouldn't even be bothering to discuss anything as I'd have assumed you had no clue what you are doing. However emp firing first is a massive advantage. There were a couple of rounds where etd co emp roided cath fr by virtue of firing first and my ****ing god was it horrific. It was virtually impossible for cath to land an attack and they got ass-raped on the other side as well. I really don't know where you're coming from in general so I guess I might as well ask. What fleets do you think each race will or should actually end up building?
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 22:09   #114
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I hope a decision is made quickly on which set of stats is going to be used. I'm all for JBG iteration, it has the apparent simplicity of a chess game, put the focus on strategy and allows for solo tactics.
Zaejii's stats look too complicated to me, it's more like a maze, you enter it not knowing how to get out (some enjoy that I can understand). I think it will only lead to frustration, with a lot of "I shouldn't have picked this race/fleet" as people discover all the implications of their choices too late.

I'm not trying to say there is a right and wrong set, it's just my feelings. I would enjoy a round with JBG stats because I know where I'm going. I'd have to rely on best guess and luck with Zaejii's stats (or worse just ask my ally to choose a race for me).
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 22:24   #115
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

i'm honestly not sure what people will build because all fleets have their advantages and disadvantages.

if there are a lot of etd fi (like you suggest) then it is doubtful that you would also see a lot of cathaar sporting a co fleet. if there aren't any terran fr fleets or etd bs fleets with assassins, the only way to stop xan fr will be with cathaar ships or xan cr (both xan fr/cr are good). the fi xans will have a field day vs terran unless they refuse to build sentinel.

Terran shoots last, but the Cr/Bs fleets have such good armour that I do not forsee that being a bad problem. Their damage is up from last round's stats where they seemed to have done okay offensively with BS (just as a blank comparison - apples and oranges ofc). The FR fleet will probably be the better defensive fleet, and Drakes are key to stopping to Xan Fr. Their good emp resistances should be essential in helping them attack Cathaar and Etd.

The Cathaar CO fleet should be able to roid Terran easily. Their DE fleet will not target the Terran FR (which also doesn't target them) so that is another option. The DE and CR fleets may have problems vs Terran Bs/Cr though due to the concentrated value and the efficiencies of widow/tara vs the higher Terran E/R. Cathaar has the emp advantage over all of the Xan fleets as well. Keep in mind though, that with Xan that build Cr + Peacekeeper - the Tara will fire through the Cr fleet first leaving the Peacekeepers to kill if not frozen. The same problem will arise if Cathaar tries to attack Zik with Cr + Mara, but the Zik FR fleet does not target the Cathaar DE one, and the Cathaar CO should be able to attack the Zik without a problem. Cat CO attacking Etd FI could be a bad idea, unless you have the numbers to owerpower the emp and still cap (which is the reverse of what you keep pointing out about Cathaar vs Etd). Cat CO vs Etd DE - the Cathaar should win out every time. The Cat CR will emp the Etd Broadsword before it gets a chance to fire, and then only has to worry about the emp attack of the Guardian.

I gotta go right now though, I'll post more later, but the key thing to remember is that people can not have 100% of their value in each and every fleet of a race - and every fleet has a weakness to something (be it offensive or defensive).
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 22:42   #116
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

This is what I'm saying. Your stats set feels more like a random collection of individual ships rather than a series of actual fleets.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 00:34   #117
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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This is what I'm saying. Your stats set feels more like a random collection of individual ships rather than a series of actual fleets.
FACT

It was good fresh air seeing the reduction in number of ships when the r32 stats were beta. Now it looks like back to the mass of ships all equally annoying to work with.. Last round stats really werent far off being epic
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 01:11   #118
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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This is what I'm saying. Your stats set feels more like a random collection of individual ships rather than a series of actual fleets.
so because people are too retarded to take 10 minutes to look at what targets what, and decide on their own what type of race they would like to play and what fleet they would like to build instead of looking at the past tendency of your stats and others and picking a certain race with the sole purpose of winning and having all the best ships that nobody could ever dream of stopping, it makes my stats shit? wow, thats a new one!
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 01:23   #119
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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so because people are too retarded to take 10 minutes to look at what targets what, and decide on their own what type of race they would like to play and what fleet they would like to build instead of looking at the past tendency of your stats and others and picking a certain race with the sole purpose of winning and having all the best ships that nobody could ever dream of stopping, it makes my stats shit? wow, thats a new one!
No. Your stats have nothing behind them thematically speaking. There's very little sense of identity to any particular strategy. And I mean, 10 minutes, are you ****ing kidding me? I doubt you wrote your own partial analysis up there in less than 10 minutes and you're the guy who wrote the stats.

Basically what I'd say is that it's very likely, depending purely on how the universe turns out, that a number of your possible fleet strategies will turn out to be extremely bad ideas.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 01:39   #120
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I think a set of stats that has more ships is better even if you have 2 pod class you should include ships of other classes. It makes things more complicated which is good. If everything is simple and easy to figure out the game will end up stagnant. I Like Zaeji's stats because they offer more diversity then again i like r31 stats better than r30 and r32. I know a ton of people that that think cat co was way too overpowered. They could roid up to 150% of there value easily. The only real way to stop cat was with more cat.

People will always build cat co's ter de's xan fi/co zik cr and etd fr/de thats just the way it goes. I think you should encourage people away from those fleets and make them try something else. I liked the xan cr fleet from r31 it was in the end there best fleet but thats just me.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 01:40   #121
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

(@ JBG - Tia posted first! hehe, hihihi Tia!) and you're entitled to your opinion, as i am, and as everyone else is. many people have expressed preference in my stats on irc and have spent time giving their inputs trying to make them better (or trying to make their race better - you know who are!). others have said your stats were good last round and they would like to play them again, others have said they liked them and they were boring, others have said they do not want to play your new stats - the same as people has said that they don't like my stats for one reason or another.

i guess we can agree to disagree. i do value your input though when its more than "wow thats stupid" because unlike other people that have done stats in the past, you usually have a grip on what people will focus on and exploit. like Theam pointed out sometime at the end of last round that Phantom had an eff of like 200% and would cover Xan FI incomings easily making the fleet worthless (in my stats).
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 02:10   #122
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Personally, I like Zaejii his stats but think they need some more work. That said, people should help in developing these stats by giving suggestions inhere, on IRC.

Just saying "the stats suck" or "the previous round set was much better we dont need another" is pretty discouraging for someone who is spending a lot of time and effort in this.

Im trying to help at the moment by giving my inputs whenever I can in #pastats. I recommend more people to do the same.

ps. I liked r32 stats too. We do need some variation though, dont want to oversimplify this. It can be a pretty boring game as it is. But that is my personal preference.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 02:17   #123
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I don't understand where you're trying to go really zae so I'm not sure what sort of corrections are needed. If you take one thing make it emp though. Emp efficiencies below 125% or so will not work. I can basically promise you that. I'm not even sure how to analyse balance on this though, there are so many ships doing different things.

Like to me it seems fairly relevant that terrans have to research cr/bs hulls before they can target de. Something like this is obviously intentional on your part though so you've obviously got reasons for having it like this. I don't know what your reasons are here unfortunately and I don't expect you to explain everything to me. With something like etd de I just have no idea what it's supposed to do. I honestly can't imagine why anyone would build it. That's why I asked about shape and design of the races. But if what I get is like the wall of text on cath above instead of a few clearly conceived ideas I don't think I'm going to be of much use. I just don't know what you're trying to do.

Edit: I'll be honest mix I hate that sort of approach. Design by committee has failed so often in general that I'd hope we can just discard the approach altogether. I mean christ look at how r31 ended up.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 02:35   #124
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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I know a ton of people that that think cat co was way too overpowered. They could roid up to 150% of there value easily. The only real way to stop cat was with more cat.
You're looking at half the problem only. You don't judge only a race by its capacity to steal roids, but also by its capacity to keep them. Check the top Caths, they've got little roids, coz they are so easy to attack.
A good EMP power is the only way for a cath to survive they need to land 90% of their raids to make up for the constant incs they get.

Zaejii, calling players retards will not make your stats look better. It's as if everytime you encountered a problem you tried to solve it by adding 1 ship...
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 03:21   #125
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Zaejii, calling players retards will not make your stats look better. It's as if everytime you encountered a problem you tried to solve it by adding 1 ship...
read the context, i never directly called anyone a retard. certainly not to the degrees that other individuals have called people idiots, retards, and worse before when discussing stats. i was making a point that people need to pick what they are interested in playing and pay attention to what they can build to attack other race/fleet combos and not worry about what could be the OMGLEET fleet combo of my stats, or base their decision on others comments or by just looking at targetting init and ignoring the rest.

i started with this many ships. as i've said before, these stats are based loosely off the R30 stats. i started on these at the beginning of R31 when we played with Gate's horrific stats. fi/co, co/fi, fr/de, de/fr, cr/bs, bs/cr targeting all gets redundant, so in some cases i mixed it up a little. like sentinel is co/fr/de. predator was co/fr.

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Like to me it seems fairly relevant that terrans have to research cr/bs hulls before they can target de. Something like this is obviously intentional on your part though so you've obviously got reasons for having it like this.
SEE! stuff like this was what i was talking about earlier with you on IRC. originally all the fr/de fleets targeted all 6 classes. i took the t2 fr/de off of them and it has caused some issues like this. making harpy as t2 de would probably fix this though.. especially considering that they were quite shit versus fr for the most part anyway..
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 03:37   #126
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I generally have to agree with JBG, Zaejii's stats have too many ships. That being said I think Zaejii's approach is an interesting change, and while general JBG makes good stats, I feel it is worth having some fresh blood in stats making, and Zaejii has put more effort into it then anyone other then JBG has in a long time.

So rather then continuing to bash each other and call each other names I would suggest that those who are serious about stats try and work constructively to make a good set of stats. I personally of the opinion that we should work from Zaejii's stats, but with a few less ships in each race.

I will lastly remind the posters on the strategy forum to please keep your tone civil or I will start deleting posts.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 09:30   #127
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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as for your stats JBG.

cath co, with 7% less emp. would still be a power house low eta and takes all that targets them.

etd FR emp is init 2, dont understand why you would let the cath roll over etd so easy.

xan co - with Shadow looks cool, but it will be tomuch cath around i think.

zik, is the only class that you dont allow to stay one class attack why ?

terrans would be easy mark for etd/cath and maybe even xan as ,pulsars would get 2x-3x raito over the Revenant


Edit: As for all this talk about too many ships, i think the universe will sort that out itself. Regardless of how many ships u put in a set of stats, ur always going to have people whore 2-3. I think by having so many ships youre providing enough options to allow for the inevitable no builds, while keeping the diversity.

Id much rather see each race with several ships not being built, yet still have numerous combinations, than each race building 3 ships, like this round.

I know some people rather mindlessly click buttons, than think, when they play PA, but alot of other players enjoy the mental stimulation aspect of it. Weve had a round of dumbed down stats, i reckon its time we had one which required a bit of intelligence.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 12:12   #128
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I don't think Zaeji's stats have too many ships per se. It just makes it more difficult to design a balanced set of stats. When I see how he messes up the emp, I don't see a point in studying them into detail. These stats were rejected before. They should be rejected again.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 13:25   #129
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Well, if you're looking for further advice can we at least fix the things that are wrong, emp, maybe that terran thing, because right now it's sort of difficult to guess what exact adjustments you're going to make heh.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 13:44   #130
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
I don't think Zaeji's stats have too many ships per se. It just makes it more difficult to design a balanced set of stats. When I see how he messes up the emp, I don't see a point in studying them into detail. These stats were rejected before. They should be rejected again.
its allready been said that we are going for a mix of zea and jgb stats ?

and if you look at what zae has replayed to cath be4 you can see that they dont Suck that much ;-) anyway.

iam looking forward to see what zea and jgb can give us in stats

jgb stats where WAYYY to easy, zea needed some work but looked cool,

so a combo of em should be cool ;-) and easy to understand

GOOGO guys
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 13:48   #131
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Er, what? Nobody has said anything about mixing the stats? Which would probably be an even worse idea than anything done to date. You can't just stick random ships together and hope for the best (as I'm saying it seems like zae's stats are doing).
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 14:45   #132
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I don't like the idea of throwing a set of stats, hoping players will somehow fix them in time for round start.
Either you're able to come up with playable stats or you're not, changes should be fine tuning.
Who decides which set will be used ? What's the process ? Waiting to see if Zaejii can fix his stats and going for JBG's if he can't ?
When will it be decided ?
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 16:53   #133
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe View Post
I generally have to agree with JBG, Zaejii's stats have too many ships. That being said I think Zaejii's approach is an interesting change, and while general JBG makes good stats, I feel it is worth having some fresh blood in stats making, and Zaejii has put more effort into it then anyone other then JBG has in a long time.

So rather then continuing to bash each other and call each other names I would suggest that those who are serious about stats try and work constructively to make a good set of stats. I personally of the opinion that we should work from Zaejii's stats, but with a few less ships in each race.

I will lastly remind the posters on the strategy forum to please keep your tone civil or I will start deleting posts.
sorry my bad !
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 17:56   #134
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Well, if you're looking for further advice can we at least fix the things that are wrong, emp, maybe that terran thing, because right now it's sort of difficult to guess what exact adjustments you're going to make heh.
I don't think he sees emp as a problem.
He made the Harpy T2 De to fix the early De hole.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 18:59   #135
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
I don't think he sees emp as a problem.
He made the Harpy T2 De to fix the early De hole.
JBG and i talked about the emp thing today. i'm going to play with the numbers when i get more time to do the whole thing at once. gonna try to boost the t2's up a little. JBG said the T1's were around 150% and that ended up overpowered.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 19:04   #136
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
R31 when we played with Gate's horrific stats. fi/co, co/fi, fr/de, de/fr, cr/bs, bs/cr targeting all gets redundant, so in some cases i mixed it up a little. like sentinel is co/fr/de. predator was co/fr.
You really haven't altered your stats much from "Gates horrific stats"

Ter has 1 'odd' ship
Cath has 0
Xan 1
Zik actually has some interesting targeting, which I would like to see more of.
ETD same as Zik.

IMO you either want to use your interesting targeting for all races, or go back to Gates which 3 races are very similar.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 20:58   #137
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
JBG and i talked about the emp thing today. i'm going to play with the numbers when i get more time to do the whole thing at once. gonna try to boost the t2's up a little. JBG said the T1's were around 150% and that ended up overpowered.
Without changing too much from how you think strengths should be I made a proposal for changes below. I looked mostly at Fi/Co, Fr and Bs since those are targetted T2.

Fi/Co
Not much I would change. I noticed a high difference in cost between the different fighters (Gnat costing 270 with ERes 72 and Phantom costing 90 with ERes 10). Such huge differences will make emp ineffective against a zik that has both (or a Xan defending a Cat). I'd make the Gnat cost less to fix this.
Furthermore I'd change:
Harpy from 54 to 53
Phoenix from 72 to 68

Frigates and Battleships I'd pretty much change across the board:

Frigates:
Pegasus 77 to 71
Drake 80 to 72
Chimaera 79 to 73
Minotaur 78 to 73
Locust 73 to 69
Termite 70 (nochange)
Ghost 65 to 57
Lancer 64 to 58
Bomber 59 (nochange)
Mirage 72 to 65
Thief 79 to 76
Buccaneer 82 to 78
Privateer 80 to 76
Pillager 80 to 76

Battleships:
Wyvern 90 to 89
Dragon 91 to 90
Leviathan 92 to 91
Mantis 79 to 76
Marauder 92 to 89
Peacekeeper 84 to 80
Assassin 87 to 82
Guardian 86 (nochange)
Caravel 89 to 88

Furthermore I found the following Cr to be a bit too hard to emp (might be deliberate):
Wraith 87 to 85
Pirate 93 to 92

Last edited by Gerbie2; 17 Aug 2009 at 21:05.
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Unread 17 Aug 2009, 21:03   #138
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Whatever stats are used, please dont wait till around 5 days before tickstart to decide
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Unread 18 Aug 2009, 22:05   #139
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Stop resetting the stats every round. Seriously. For once in the history of PA I would like to see a set of stats last longer than two rounds. Stick with JBG's stats for next round, let him fix what's broken and I guarantee you'll see a better set of stats than what others could come up with.
Possible but i also think we need changes to keep the game interesting and to let people change races each round.
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Unread 18 Aug 2009, 22:06   #140
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

At the moment i am not sure if i want to play next round with these stats. They give me a headache. Keep it simple, the average planetarion player does not want to spend 2 hours trying to figure out which target to hit.
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Unread 18 Aug 2009, 22:27   #141
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Gio2k View Post
At the moment i am not sure if i want to play next round with these stats. They give me a headache. Keep it simple, the average planetarion player does not want to spend 2 hours trying to figure out which target to hit.
Feel free to come up with a simpler yet still interesting set of stats.
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Unread 18 Aug 2009, 22:37   #142
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Feel free to come up with a simpler yet still interesting set of stats.
JBG already came up with them, feel free to use them
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Unread 18 Aug 2009, 23:38   #143
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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JBG already came up with them, feel free to use them
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interesting
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Unread 18 Aug 2009, 23:50   #144
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Might as well have 3 ships; Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Don't be a ****ing retard.
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Unread 19 Aug 2009, 02:22   #145
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I got bored and made a 3 pod class version of my stats set for good measure.


http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...Rw&output=html

I don't expect this to be used, I don't really care to be honest. However I would ask people to look at how fleet patterns really work and how you avoid having the actual wall of ships which just hits you when you look at the current stats. I understand that you don't get the variation in types of ship targeting that you have on zae's but all that forces is teaming up in attack to get rid of the holes in your fleet and the emergence of a brutal war of attrition which fluctuates depending on what ships the other side is building. I'm not saying this would be a totally bad thing but I would remind everyone who played r30 that a similar sort of defensive, brute-force round is what you're looking at, except probably a lot more so.
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Unread 19 Aug 2009, 09:55   #146
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I got bored and made a 3 pod class version of my stats set for good measure.


http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...Rw&output=html
Love em

Can we please use these?
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Unread 19 Aug 2009, 10:29   #147
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Love em

Can we please use these?
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Unread 19 Aug 2009, 11:43   #148
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Love em

Can we please use these?



in the overall, liked these stats.
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Unread 19 Aug 2009, 12:10   #149
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Can we have a decision from PA Team now plz ? It's bad for everybody, stat makers and players, to delay the choice.
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Unread 19 Aug 2009, 12:30   #150
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Love em

Can we please use these?
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