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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 09:24   #51
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'll probably end up doing the stats again next round so here are my thoughts!

cr/bs targetting co no, it's really gay and annoying that you can be covered by some faggot support planet no matter how hard you try to roid someone. the only alternative is fi/co targetting cr/bs which is horrifying and has never worked even once
Reduction in cath salvage sure, but quartering it? Wild over-reaction. I don't think that'll address the issue of cath strength though.
Terran fi yeah sure, give it a bump.
What the hell does etd need improvement for?
Zik I don't really know what you're talking about at all. And a ****ing salvage bonus? Was your last round actually r12?
Xan are a problem really, I'd remove the fi fleet, add a t2 to the rev, bring in an fr targetting say fi/co and add de t3 to the bomber. Might fiddle with the shadow as well, making it anti-cr and anti-bs.

My current thoughts, if we stayed with this stats iteration, would be changes as above to xan, reduce terran de armour by about 5%, switch the targetting of emp to t1 cr t2 bs, improve ter bs damage by about 5%, reduce cath emp efficiency by about 3-4%.
Cath has for sure been dominating the top 100 last few rounds.
I think this is due to the fact, that rounds are pretty short, and that fact has not arrived yet in the stats making. There is a point when cath starts to get complicated (atleast a little), but this point is reached only very late in the round. So from 150% down to ~135% eff on most things and ~115% on the hard targets would be atleast worth a try imho.
Also im still a fan of trying out EMP the same way as normal damage does, maybe with improved t2 efficiency. This could also solve this issue.

Ter-DE has indeed be too good, give it a drawback like the ETD, mix the ships between FR and DE. All 3 options to move one ship down to FR has its interesting features, there is room for discussion

Xan has indeed been a bit weak, FI fleet us useless with all EMP going T1 on them, without any other race having a FI-fleet.
Besides that, i guess Xan-FR attackfleet could be an interesting option to give Ziks a teamup, OR give Zik a FI-fleet ro roid with to bring the teamup to the Xan.
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 09:59   #52
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Oizo View Post

Xan has indeed been a bit weak, FI fleet us useless with all EMP going T1 on them, without any other race having a FI-fleet.
?
all emp fi t1? my spids are t2 fi, and really really suck vs xan fi.
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 10:15   #53
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Oizo
There is a point when cath starts to get complicated (atleast a little), but this point is reached only very late in the round. So from 150% down to ~135% eff on most things and ~115% on the hard targets would be atleast worth a try imho.
Actually this point was regularly reached during r24-29. In fact in some of these rounds cath was so bad it was virtually unplayable, something I would at least hope to have avoided with any particular race recently. Emp efficiencies from 115-135% would definitely lead back to this scenario. Planetarion is primarily about tweaking things, not massive changes like we saw from r30-31 when salvage, which people decided was too high, got ****ing halved. I think cath were helped a bit this round by the fact they're far more capable of attacking at their value level instead of their value bash, meaning they're capping 25% a lot more often than other races. I did think this might be a factor this round pre-round but I was not sure to what extent.
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 10:36   #54
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Why not just scrap this stat forumla. Xan having one mega-class of fleet is terrible. especially since they have 3 single targeters. So what each fleet has strength and a weakness but every other race has ships that target Fi/Co where xan have Fi and another ship that can target Co but that ship gets primary targeted by almost everything.

Give xan back either there Cr fleet or Fr fleet. People will bitch and complain but they can suck it up and deal. Frankly every Race with the exception of terran gets free roiding on xan. If you are going to make 1/2 the ships single target then make the other races the same. to balance it out.

Cat this round have the same problem they always have, the emp is too effective. Yeah thats the point, but still you need to be atleast 1.2-1.4x the cat fleet value to not be emp'd. Which is rediculous, Cat have one bad match up out of the stat block, and thats vs etd that primarily build De's. But thats just meh... My suggestion change the emp order to Co/Fi on the Beetle and Change locsts to FR and have it target Fi/Co.

As for terran they have a really good De fleet its VERY VERy hard to roid into it. But as most of the time isnt very attack worthy. There bs fleet is there main attack fleet and its good /bad. Which frankly is how it should be. Wyvrens are good vs bombers and chimi's. But weak to gaudians and buccs. So not much change there but give them back the phoenix or Restrict the targeting on there de fleet. Ie remove one of the targets. Drake only targets fr's etc.

Zik have a good set up this round they are weak to xan which is most of the case. Xan fi's roid very well. But zik cr's can roid xan just fine. So its a win/win. I'd prolly change the mara's init. Zik have always been known to have Low init kill ships. But init 8 is shitty its designed to beat the bomber, thats it. Which is kinda lame.

Etd this round got gimped. They have no defense worth playing. So might as well just go offensive. They usuallyhave a nice sized fr/de fleet which they should. But not giving them ANY fi/co is helpless to an alliance. If you are going to restrict 2 races to roiding with just 1 Mega class then do it all the races because it doesnt matter, or bring back single targeting so that a fi fleet is different than a co fleet.
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 11:53   #55
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Etd this round got gimped. They have no defense worth playing. So might as well just go offensive. They usuallyhave a nice sized fr/de fleet which they should. But not giving them ANY fi/co is helpless to an alliance. If you are going to restrict 2 races to roiding with just 1 Mega class then do it all the races because it doesnt matter, or bring back single targeting so that a fi fleet is different than a co fleet.
?
the tycoon kinda pwns man, also the dev is a rather good def ship.

I d like to see etd have a couple fi/co ships though, agreed
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 13:19   #56
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

The amount of unbelievable morons who have posted in this thread is awesome. I think I've heard nearly every possible point of view at this stage. Anyone play cath and felt they were underpowered just to complete things?
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 17:23   #57
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

i hope the stats dont change too much from this set, just few minor tweaks, ive quite enjoyed these!
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 19:11   #58
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
The amount of unbelievable morons who have posted in this thread is awesome. I think I've heard nearly every possible point of view at this stage. Anyone play cath and felt they were underpowered just to complete things?
tbh yes we had one that felt cath was underpowered in page one ;-)

but still, this is a game that alot of ppl play, and ppl should give there feed back on what they think is worng/needs some help.

calling ppl morons just becouse they do like to give feed back to the game is maybe to much ?, you got the "honor" of makeing this rounds stats, maybe replay with abit more respect to ppl around you. ?

i can agree that alot of the replays in this tread is abit missplaced. but still no reson to lose ur "temper?".

any way i made this with, R32 stats and next round with the few thing "I" did think was wrong, iam not an expert on this game. but it was my 2 cent.

and i know i cant type for shit.
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 19:41   #59
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Lolling if you think it's a honour to make stats. Usually it's a painstaking process involving trying to refute as many idiots at the same time while taking into account how their idiocy will affect the game. And don't worry, I wasn't losing my temper. At this stage I find it all rather amusing.
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 22:53   #60
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Just to bring it up, however relevant it is. Yes I know it is only tick 1010. Yes I know results are skewed due to fencing, politics, "good players" picking X or Y race, etc.

Code:
Race		  # (%)	     Top 100	Highest	Lowest
Terran		425(27%)	20	2	94
Cathaar		428(27%)	48	1	95
Xandathrii	292(18%)	 7	11	96
Zikonian	264(16%)	14	7	93
Eitraides	157(10%)	11	24	100
How can anyone in their right mind call that balanced?
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Unread 7 Aug 2009, 22:55   #61
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Lolling if you think it's a honour to make stats. Usually it's a painstaking process involving trying to refute as many idiots at the same time while taking into account how their idiocy will affect the game. And don't worry, I wasn't losing my temper. At this stage I find it all rather amusing.
well IT should be an honour, i have not played in some time but to be invold in a game you clearly like to play (as you have been around for long time as well ;-) ) and yes alot of ppl trying to force you to go that or this way, should be ignored alest abit ;-)

anyway i think you have done a good jobb with the live stats, even tho even with first glance i could see that terran de and cath CO, tullas was to powerfull ;-). maybe thats why its SOOO many cath/terrans ?
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Unread 8 Aug 2009, 00:59   #62
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I support the idea of more ships. the small number of ships its too simple and the same things keep happening. Give people more to work with. And make cat NOT overpowered as all hell. People will still play them regardless if they are OP'd because emp is good.

the good players pick on stats, the mid-low players pick on what they want/like. So play to the majority of the universe and not just the top 100-200 players. There are 1400 players playing. JBG you just need to relax and not bitch about it.
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Unread 8 Aug 2009, 01:34   #63
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Stats don't need to be balanced, we've seen a nearly perfectly balanced set of stats not long ago, it was the most boring round ever.
Stats need to make a round fun.

Cath emp is by essence more powerful than other weapons, that's the minimum you can ask when the drawback is people landing on you anyway coz they can't be killed. Another drawback being that usually cath attack ships are their defence ships, they're easy to counter.
If Cath trust the top 100 it's also because they can land on bigger planets > they get more XP/roid, they can land solo > they get a bigger share of roids/attack.

But Cath don't allow for mistakes, you can't afford to crash ships or your round will turn into a daily assrape. Cath have to build value on ships and steady income fast and they have to stay big in order to survive. It's not that easy to play well.
I wouldn't touch the emp power but maybe place their kill ships in a different class:
Locust > FR and Mantis >BS

I don't think more ships are a solution, I was very skeptical at first with these stats on the low choice of ships, but in the end I found we just got rid of the ships people never build , those that are elected worst/most useless ships of the round in each race...
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Unread 9 Aug 2009, 17:57   #64
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Im fine with playing a successfull set of stats all over again really. I would love playing another round with round 27 stats, and next round maybe round 30 again, before we go back to this rounds stats again etc. Some small fixes are needed though, like nerfing the r30 harpy a bit, although it was quite funny.
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Unread 11 Aug 2009, 00:34   #65
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

My main two problems with this round where Xan being utterly made piss by Cat all round and ETD's obvious lack of effort with construction. A secondary downside i felt was the lack of diversity in fleets. Things get quite routine/boring alot sooner once people figure out that 95% of each race is going to build x/y ships in a certain ratio.

Depending on your aims, you could split ETD fleets into the traditional setup, or drop lancer to FI/CO to flak for xan and provide a bit more anti CO universally. Ters didnt build harp, emping CO becomes alot harder mid rd. while zik's attacked with cutlass. Simply increasing the amount of useable anti CO fleets sitting around would go a long way to fixing both things.

A big problem with Xan being weak to cat this round is that they where far and away the easiest race for them to hit, causing them to be dominated past the usual tick 3-400 mark. Opening FR/DE classes to being attacked by cat a bit easier (not having to emp 100% planet value to stop the kill ship at t2..) helps to reduce the inc load on Xan, which allows them to be more competitive, while allowing FR/DE to be less space bricky.

Reversing beet targetting to help out Xan would certainly work, perhaps too well, who knows.

Anything, whatever way works, theyre just another few options to change it up abit so the round doesnt feel like a rerun.

Just a little bit more thought being put into ETD, instead of throwing it all into one big shit heap and saying have at it lads.
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Unread 11 Aug 2009, 20:18   #66
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I'm not sure if Cochese is going to decide to use these stats for R33 or not. Yes I know there are a lot of ships. They were made during R31, but were unable to be polished in time for R32.

There are a few basic ideas that I have tried to keep in mind.
- Each race should be able to roid another without requiring a team up.
- Minimal or not overpowered 2 tick defence.
- Defensive advantage to same class or higher class ships.
- Removed T2 FR|DE from all FR/DE fleets to prevent forting through building only one class of ships.

I am concerned that Terran, Zik, and Etd may have ended up too powerful, and that Cathaar emp efficiency being cut down and them having to target through their own ships first might make them too weak (in theory it should only prove to be a huge weakness in a Cathaar heavy universe).

Any input / comments are welcome. Feel free to post here, pm me, or come on IRC and spam in #pastats.

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Unread 11 Aug 2009, 20:30   #67
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Stats are good, and I want to sex0r Zaejii
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Unread 12 Aug 2009, 05:24   #68
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

the etd kinda makes me nostalgic for r25

since ive given up on fr/de after my etd debacle this round i think its a good set... if i was thinking about fr/de i think i would have a lot of bitching to do
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Unread 12 Aug 2009, 15:48   #69
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

stats look good at first sight, but terrans will never in that setup be able to roid any race if you ask me.

xans would be foolish not to build dreads and peacekeepers, caths and etd will just emp the shit out of terrans, wich leaves ziks the only target for terran bs that is, all the rest will just be killed first.

really can't see how you would think terrans would be strong. zik is just a matter of making good steals. I like the ETD stats tho, but that's obvious. cath will be easiest to play and roid with.
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Unread 12 Aug 2009, 16:49   #70
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Im not gonna DC in a round where every race has all meta class pod types :S

Stats are completely different from this rounds on a glance, that can be very refreshing. Will look more in detail later, is there a beta actually going on yet/soon? Can I join?
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Unread 12 Aug 2009, 20:18   #71
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

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Im not gonna DC in a round where every race has all meta class pod types :S
Stats are completely different from this rounds on a glance, that can be very refreshing.
like I said earlier, these were made during r31 before there was even talk of a smaller set, etc.

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Will look more in detail later, is there a beta actually going on yet/soon? Can I join?
beta should be ready to go whenever (afaik) unless Cin, Appoco, or others have changes to inject. not sure when they plan on getting it started though!
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 10:21   #72
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I liked playing etd alot, but theres 2 things id like to see changed if people agree.

- they are too weak attack wise against fr/de
(especially drakes, ive seen so much attacks stopped by only a handfull ships)

- The only ship you actually wanna steal/get to steal with tycoons are ter de. you hardly ever get in the position to attack a xan (for bombers), zik de are useless to you as they steal classes you cant use and to steal terran de is very very hard due to drakes.

I liked the tycoon, dont get me wrong, but it could use some loving on what it will steal. Having 4 out of 5 races that dont have ships you want to steal and the one race that has em rapes you really limits the possibilitys with the tycoon. maybe make it a little less strong but able to steal other fr/de that are new and useful?

just my 2 cents,

D
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 10:42   #73
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathrow View Post
- they are too weak attack wise against fr/de
(especially drakes, ive seen so much attacks stopped by only a handfull ships)
Ive gone for 3 weeks without landing because even a tiny amount of Tycs can make a landing too high cost... the flip side of that is I use my tycs to defend a lot, a job for which they are awesome, but that means I only steal other etd

Zaejii: is the Xan dreadnaught meant to be normal rather than cloaked?
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 13:58   #74
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Why again is xan fi/co being made so so so weak. The fact they have to build accross 2 classes (fi AND co) is bad enough (and makes them so easy to roid by cath) but when the targetting between those 2 classes means you actually need 3 ships as well just makes them not worth bothering with imo. The last 2 rounds has shown that with a fi/co divide Xan is not as attractive to everyone as it used to be and its been reflected in the overall rankings so why are we making them even weaker?

And no, I didn't really look at their FR/CR options as I believe xan's smaller fleet should be its primary.

Also, I think stats are complicated enough without jumping targetting all over the place, can we not just have some simple targetting - fi/co/fr, fr/de/cr etc rather than fi/co/de etc.
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 14:13   #75
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Xan Fighter Meta Class:
- Phantom FI->FI Init 5
- Pulsar FI->FR/DE Init 5
- Sentinel CO->CO/FR/DE Init 6

Ships that target FI with intention to kill/steal:
- Harpy (Ter FI Init 7) T1
- Phoenix (Ter CO Init 7) T2
- Pegasus (Ter DE Init 6) T2
- Gnat (Cat FI Init 10) T2
- Phantom (Xan FI Init 5) T1
- Ghost (Xan FR Init 5) T1
- Cutlass (Zik FI Init 20) T2
- Thief (Zik FR Init 19) T1
- Pillager (Etd FR Init 19) T2
- Devastator (Etd DE Init 6) T2

Of all of those, the Phantom, Pulsar, and Ghost all fire simultaneously. The rest of the ships Xan have an initiative advantage on. If you choose to not build Sentinel the only vulnerability your fleet has is through EMP (which Xan has pretty much every round) and Phoenix (which some people will not build since Harpy has a T3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX View Post
Also, I think stats are complicated enough without jumping targetting all over the place, can we not just have some simple targetting - fi/co/fr, fr/de/cr etc rather than fi/co/de etc.
P.S.: What is the difference that makes fi/co/de complicated and fi/co/fr simple?
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 14:53   #76
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
Xan Fighter Meta Class:
- Phantom FI->FI Init 5
- Pulsar FI->FR/DE Init 5
- Sentinel CO->CO/FR/DE Init 6

Ships that target FI with intention to kill/steal:
- Harpy (Ter FI Init 7) T1
- Phoenix (Ter CO Init 7) T2
- Pegasus (Ter DE Init 6) T2
- Gnat (Cat FI Init 10) T2
- Phantom (Xan FI Init 5) T1
- Ghost (Xan FR Init 5) T1
- Cutlass (Zik FI Init 20) T2
- Thief (Zik FR Init 19) T1
- Pillager (Etd FR Init 19) T2
- Devastator (Etd DE Init 6) T2

Of all of those, the Phantom, Pulsar, and Ghost all fire simultaneously. The rest of the ships Xan have an initiative advantage on. If you choose to not build Sentinel the only vulnerability your fleet has is through EMP (which Xan has pretty much every round) and Phoenix (which some people will not build since Harpy has a T3).
But then you still need to build an anti-co ship. My point was, every other race has to build only 3 ships (or atleast the option to) and these 3 ships are usually 2 attack ships in the same class and 1 defence ship in a diff class. Xan has the disadvantage of building 3 attack ships accross 2 classes + an anti-CR/BS ship OR 2 attack ships + an anti-co ship (that can't be used in ally defence) and an anti-cr/bs ship OR leave a CO hole and go with 3 ships. One or the other (2 attack ships in diff classes or needing to build 4 ships to cover all classes) has weakened xan the last couple of rounds to the point where xan dominance is no longer a problem, giving them both weaknesses is a bit extreme considering their demise over the last 2 rounds and you can definitely tell these stats were made pre-r31, a little update wouldn't hurt, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
P.S.: What is the difference that makes fi/co/de complicated and fi/co/de simple?
FI/CO/FR/DE/CR/BS is the order of ship size, targetting along those lines or in reverse is pretty simple to understand but when you start jumping between it just adds completely unecessary complexity. For example I'm sat there staring at a battle calc as a DC and I want to know what T3 target of a ship is, if I know its FI/CO then it should be FR 3rd, not DE, or whatever it is you decide to chuck in there for fun.
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 15:18   #77
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Well, I guess that all depends on what fleet you choose. Anyone that chooses to build DE/FR this round has to build 3 ships (Zik can possibly get by with 2) + another ship because of the targetting hole. Anyone that goes CR/BS can choose to build a 3rd defense ship like you suggest, but that does not always mean they will have a fleet with an optimal defense ship. Take Cathaar CR + Beetle for example. They will most likely have problems all round with Etd + Xan FI team ups since Avenger has the init advantage over Beetle (despite its poor efficiency), but if they have CO as a main fleet (or DE) then they can possibly avoid such team ups.

Keep in mind that other races also can not attack all round by only sending pods.
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 19:18   #78
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
Keep in mind that other races also can not attack all round by only sending pods.
Apart from Etd who can.. and can do it only building two classes?

But other then that I think xan fi/co looks quite weak atm, the rest of it looks ok although incredibly complex. Were there even this many ships in rd 31?

Can we not just use a previous stats and have them tweaked a little. These stats will most likely confuse new players, and although adds variety I feel its an extra dimension that isnt really wanted. I think dc's have enough of a job without having to deal with 64 different types of ships in the game.
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 20:32   #79
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rio View Post
Apart from Etd who can.. and can do it only building two classes?
I'm sorry, but I don't get where you are going with this. Xan can cover all ship classes by building two classes (FI+FR, FR+CO, FI+CR, FR+CR). I believe Venox was commenting on the actual number of ships that need be built (which I was also responding to). Etd has 2/3 DE cloaked and 1/2 BS ships cloaked. That hardly allows them to attack all round through only sending pods, unless you just want your fleet piss easy to cover!
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Unread 13 Aug 2009, 20:53   #80
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
I'm sorry, but I don't get where you are going with this. Xan can cover all ship classes by building two classes (FI+FR, FR+CO, FI+CR, FR+CR). I believe Venox was commenting on the actual number of ships that need be built (which I was also responding to). Etd has 2/3 DE cloaked and 1/2 BS ships cloaked. That hardly allows them to attack all round through only sending pods, unless you just want your fleet piss easy to cover!
Yeh tht was my typo.. i meant ships :|


Edit: Infact i completely cocked tht whole sentence, ignore it.
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Unread 14 Aug 2009, 00:26   #81
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Guess I should post the changes we've had over the last couple days (in my stat set) here (for those of you not frequenting the #pastats channel). Cochese and Monroe still haven't given their stamps of approval yet (they're busy bees).

--- 8.12.09 ---
* Cricket is now known as Gnat
* War Frigate is now known as Pegasus
Zik Clipper Changed to DE | ER 81 -> 87
Etd Guardian BS/CR 15 guns -> CR/BS 12 guns
Cat Termite Damage 12 -> 8
Xan Haunt Damage 19 -> 16
Xan Apparition Damage 15 -> 9
Zik Galleon Damage 13 -> 10
Etd Basilisk Damage 12 -> 10

--- 8.13.09 ---
Xan Pulsar Armour 4 -> 5
Xan Ghost Init 5 -> 4
Zik Marauder Init 5 -> Init 7
Etd Broadsword Damage 34 Init 5 -> 36 / 9
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Unread 14 Aug 2009, 01:15   #82
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Tbh im not one of these people who cries "omgomgomg XAN HAVE NO FI or TER HAVE NO BS or CAT HAVE NO CR." At the end of the day, if each race has viable fleets to use, then i dont see a problem. If u dont like the classes viable to a particular race, play a different race.
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Unread 14 Aug 2009, 14:17   #83
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

First impressions:
1. Emp is too weak. Like 30% weaker than last rnd. 10% would have been enough.
2. Expensive fi/co SKs with high EmpRes and armor cannot be emped/killed when flakked by cheaper ships. (Didn't we have that discussion before?)

Terran looks weak (mediocore armor, low damage and sucky init)
Cat - lol
Xan looks strong (thanks to sucky emp, good init)
Zik/Etd - dunno

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Unread 14 Aug 2009, 16:37   #84
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
1. Emp is too weak. Like 30% weaker than last rnd. 10% would have been enough.
(see Cathaar paragraph)

Quote:
2. Expensive fi/co SKs with high EmpRes and armor cannot be emped/killed when flakked by cheaper ships. (Didn't we have that discussion before?)
I'm not sure what you are looking at (feel free to find me on irc and give some examples), but here are some percentages on things targetting the fi/co sk's:

Harpy -> Galleon FI T1 187%
Phoenix -> Apparition CO T1 214%
Gnat -> Apparition CO T1 174%
Beetle -> Apparition CO T1 543% (emp)
Beetle -> Galleon FI T2 331% (emp)
Phantom -> Galleon FI T1 200%
Sentinel -> Apparition CO T1 229%
Ghost -> Galleon FI T1 240%
Avenger -> Galleon FI T1 455% (emp)
Avenger -> Apparition CO T2 269% (emp)

Cost can be adjusted, but the lower it goes, the harder it is to get emp to work out. Could be something to look at though! (edit: i'm playing with the sk's now so some of the above will change)

Quote:
Terran looks weak (mediocore armor, low damage and sucky init)
Cat - lol
Xan looks strong (thanks to sucky emp, good init)
Zik/Etd - dunno
Compared to this round, Terran has a higher Damage/Cost across the board (with higher efficiencies to boot), but currently their Armour is a little low. Terran has always had sucky inits. Their staying power, ability to fire back, etc all has to play into their doing well. We have been discussing how to improve them recently, which if you have any ideas - please come stop in! Keep in mind though, that currently Terran has some of the best defensive ships available in Harpy, Phoenix, Drake, and Chimaera (the problem of which does not help them get roids).

Cathaar efficiencies are down ~20-30% (T1s are mostly 120%-140%, T2s 100%-120% on average) and they target their own ships first. Everyone else that has looked at them has said they are good, but I have my doubts how they will work out. As I said in an earlier post, their T1s only become a huge factor in a Cathaar heavy environment where they can team with other races and attack other Cathaar (which some think is a good thing!). When more people get calcing and testing, then adjustments can be made (most likely to number of guns - increasing efficiency).

Xan is very solid. The only real nemesis(s) to their FI fleet are Pulsar, Ghost, Phoenix, and EMP. The only real weaknesses of the FR fleet are the Terran Drake and their own Bomber - how that plays out will depend on what gets built, and if the init gets improved (which if it is, could make Terran even worse). The CR fleet is also viable.

Zik FR+Clipper should be able to roid independent of steals, as should the CR+BS fleet. Steal efficiencies may need to be improved a little (by way of more damage) pending input. I think it looks okay, but I am not sure if there will be any salvage changes this round or not. As far as their attack ships go, they steal mostly at 100% with defence ships around 80%.

Etd has some good ships and some good fleets, and is probably the only race that will not be changed much more with the exception of a couple tweaks (Assassin Init, Steal Eff).

;TLDR
We could use more people calcing, testing, and giving feedback. The hole I created to keep FR/DE fleets from "forting" and only having to build 3 ships has made for some nice attack/defence combos on some races, but has left more work to be done in order to make sure that all races have an even shot!
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Unread 14 Aug 2009, 18:11   #85
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

What's the reasoning behind not allowing any "forting" anyway? The strategy has advantages and disadvantages - and the underrepresentation of terran in the top 100 this round suggests it's not quite as overpowered as the whining would suggest.
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Unread 15 Aug 2009, 01:22   #86
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Perhaps with universe numbers down to 13 men and an east-european computer hacker (hai cardi,) i dont really think its a good idea to prevent 35% of the uni from being attacked with anything but mass teamups, ie, fortressing.
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Unread 15 Aug 2009, 03:08   #87
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
I'm not sure what you are looking at (feel free to find me on irc and give some examples), but here are some percentages on things targetting the fi/co sk's:
His point was that it doesn't matter how expensive/crap you make them, as they'll always be outfoddered. You only need ~1500-3500 Apperitions all round, and they'll never be a deciding factor if an attack is a land or not. And I don't see anyone keeping enough EMP ships home to stop the SKs and not the Pods.

So the only difference with crappy SKs is that if you kill someone's fleet for 50%, you'll most likely kill all SKs.
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Unread 15 Aug 2009, 08:39   #88
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin] View Post
Perhaps with universe numbers down to 13 men and an east-european computer hacker (hai cardi,) i dont really think its a good idea to prevent 35% of the uni from being attacked with anything but mass teamups, ie, fortressing.
While I see your point, if you actually think no fortressing will mean no teamups, you're more naive than I thought possible. It's still the best way to get roids.
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Unread 15 Aug 2009, 20:22   #89
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

I'm perfectly happy to either try and correct this round's stats or an earlier iteration like r30's that I'm also responsible for. I haven't looked at zae's set yet but I remember thinking it was pretty good. If people want to "risk" a new set of 2+ pod class races I'd recommend going there and I'd certainly be happy to lend a hand if it's wanted.
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Unread 15 Aug 2009, 22:20   #90
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shev View Post
While I see your point, if you actually think no fortressing will mean no teamups, you're more naive that I thought possible. It's still the best way to get roids.
No, i dont. If you think i think such a thing, then you are more naive than i thought possible.

As for JBG, itd certainly be great to have someone with your experience in stat making, to make sure there arent any massive unintentional flaws, Im sure Zaejii would love your help. I look forward allready
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 02:03   #91
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

R33 stats shouldn't be a revenge against r32 stats. Cath emp down 30 % is so retarded I'll call that set Emostats.

JBG you proved a creative thinking in making stats, and you've regularly come up with the most interesting sets. Plz be involved in the new set, as much as possible.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 04:38   #92
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...xg&output=html

This is how I would improve last round's stats. Cath emp would be nerfed about 6-7% max, and probably less than that in some cases. What I did was as follows

a) give ter de more natural enemies without ruining the fortressing aspect of it
b) make xan more robust. you can now survive on only 3 ships if you go xan
c) give etd better attacking options (I basically stuck in a r30 cath de style fleet, this is currently fr class but I'd consider changing it to de)
d) give etd the option of not just building one mega class
e) improve terran bs, bumped up its efficiencies and although there is more to potentially damage it with the pillager, it has a natural teamup partner for something which is fairly strong and it can still solo roid.
f) make cath co and cr more stoppable, cutlass plus rev or something like that is a lot more viable and there is now an fr/de class anti-cr/bs ship with init 1 emp and a couple of cr options for killing cr
g) leave zik with its identity intact, roidable so that it can use its high efficiencies to steal things, and manage to keep its ability to roid solo with cr in play even after adjusting xan

The one thing I have to say is I'm not even sure if reducing cath emp much at all is wise now. A lot of these changes impact on cath as I mentioned in f). g) also means caths will get more zik cr incs which primarily headed towards xans last round and the new nature of the xan co fleet means it can roid cath a bit more. I'd appreciate any opinions (and please point out if I made any silly mistakes as I did this quite quickly) but unless the decision is to made to continue with these stats I won't bother updating them anymore.

Edit: I am considering changing the rev back to t1 fi as I don't really like mutually assured destruction battles. This would probably mean more incs on terrans and fewer on caths. I would also consider fiddling around with the corsair/cutlass a bit (swap classes, changing targetting, maybe both same class.

Also I have to say I prefer changes like this than ones where I have to bash down cath emp in order to make them fit. It just seems more aesthetically pleasing.
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Last edited by JonnyBGood; 16 Aug 2009 at 04:48.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 05:34   #93
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
R33 stats shouldn't be a revenge against r32 stats. Cath emp down 30 % is so retarded I'll call that set Emostats.
Again, look at the efficiencies and my comments. NO ONE has come in and even looked at or given any input regarding Cathaar other than that "it looks good" and agreeing with me that the targetting will only be problematic if there is a high number of cathaar (because they can roid/stop each other as opposed to how it is now).
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 14:32   #94
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
Again, look at the efficiencies and my comments. NO ONE has come in and even looked at or given any input regarding Cathaar other than that "it looks good" and agreeing with me that the targetting will only be problematic if there is a high number of cathaar (because they can roid/stop each other as opposed to how it is now).
If http://beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl?race=2 is actually what the efficiencies of cath are they will die. Like not even funny, roll up the white flag and maybe have 4 caths in the t100 by the end of the round and those will be people playing for xp die. Look at the range of problems cath used to have in the first bunch of multi-targetting rounds. They just got flooded with incs because they'd always end up being weak against multiple ship classes.

Just to take one example the beetle is a really shit ship. Its efficiency is lower fair enough but it's not even like it look likes its helped by the shape of the stats either. There are 2 ships which emp it before it even fires. Plus it's relatively likely that you're not just going to have to freeze defending co in any battle. You're also getting raped in the ass by etd fi attacking you.

Another would be cath de, you have to build 4 ships minimum if you go for cath de, and it's not like some previous rounds where you do end up building 4 ships, there were always just 3 you could build to cover yourself from incs. I know your efficiencies are generally weaker across the board but emp still works on the principle of freezing enemy ships, if you can't do it efficiently enough it just fails horrifically.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 16:24   #95
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...xg&output=html

This is how I would improve last round's stats.
I like these starts better then this rounds.

My observations:

1) 2 FI ships total with most ships firing FI/CO first.
- Change Cath CO to FI?

2) ETD EMP FR Fortress setups. These are wacky and scary.

Looks pretty decent overall tho.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 16:44   #96
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

1) 4 ships target fi and then co. 5 target co and then fi and one extra targets co only. So, not really. But yeah, there's no fi fleet. I remember doing this in a previous round when myself and tzu were doing the stats and there were no real serious problems arising from it.

2) An EMP fortress is an oxymoron. The point of fortressing is you have to emp/kill all the opponent's ships in order to roid them for free. This, obviously, is completely irrelevant to emp. It's "fortressed" versus co as it has a same class kill ship but in no sense can you say it is
versus fr/de/cr/bs.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 16:50   #97
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
If http://beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl?race=2 is actually what the efficiencies of cath are they will die. Like not even funny, roll up the white flag and maybe have 4 caths in the t100 by the end of the round and those will be people playing for xp die. Look at the range of problems cath used to have in the first bunch of multi-targetting rounds. They just got flooded with incs because they'd always end up being weak against multiple ship classes.

Just to take one example the beetle is a really shit ship. Its efficiency is lower fair enough but it's not even like it look likes its helped by the shape of the stats either. There are 2 ships which emp it before it even fires. Plus it's relatively likely that you're not just going to have to freeze defending co in any battle. You're also getting raped in the ass by etd fi attacking you.

Another would be cath de, you have to build 4 ships minimum if you go for cath de, and it's not like some previous rounds where you do end up building 4 ships, there were always just 3 you could build to cover yourself from incs. I know your efficiencies are generally weaker across the board but emp still works on the principle of freezing enemy ships, if you can't do it efficiently enough it just fails horrifically.
Since people apparently can't read, I will say it again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii View Post
Cathaar efficiencies are down ~20-30% (T1s are mostly 120%-140%, T2s 100%-120% on average) and they target their own ships first. Everyone else that has looked at them has said they are good, but I have my doubts how they will work out. As I said in an earlier post, their T1s only become a huge factor in a Cathaar heavy environment where they can team with other races and attack other Cathaar (which some think is a good thing!). When more people get calcing and testing, then adjustments can be made (most likely to number of guns - increasing efficiency).
Just like you will not change your stats without intelligent arguments, I am not going to boost Cathaar efficiencies until they have been adequately tested and looked at. Monroe and Cochese have not even looked at the set in depth yet, and at first glace Monroe has agreed with me that they look OK but might need a couple more guns (like I have admitted before, but said I was waiting to see what happened).

Spider is only available in galaxy or with prelaunch, so that argument against emp'ing Beetle before it fires is moot. Avenger EMPs Beetle T2 @ 69% avg eff and Beetle fires back T2 @ 100%. If guns on Cathaar go up, that goes up even further! Avenger is hardly overpowered, and those that have taken more than 2 minutes to look at the stats and discussed them with me have all agreed.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 16:59   #98
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

There is literally, absolutely zero chance that cathaar are not underpowered right now. You might as well give xan d/cs of 10 and claim the same thing. Don't be obtuse. Boost them to a point where you think they might be balanced and then re-examine them. Testing is also largely irrelevant. Betas are about as much use for understanding genuine balance as the colour scheme on the ships would be.

Spider only being available ingal or on prelaunch is not an irrelevant point. It obviously means it's not as good as if it was same eta but you can still cover plenty of fi/co incs with fr/de fleets.


Specifically on
Quote:
Avenger EMPs Beetle T2 @ 69% avg eff and Beetle fires back T2 @ 100%. If guns on Cathaar go up, that goes up even further! Avenger is hardly overpowered, and those that have taken more than 2 minutes to look at the stats and discussed them with me have all agreed.
I'm stunned you can claim this. I'm not even going to argue this point with words.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=r20krg18bwaar98

There's a picture of an etd roiding a cath almost three times its ****ing size. I mean holy ****.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 17:20   #99
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

Personally I would prefer a edited set of previous stats, f.eks r32 or r30.
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Unread 16 Aug 2009, 17:23   #100
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Re: R32 stats and next round :p

jbg, yes a etd fleet fi fleet will be able to roid a cath FI/CO but the moment you add some Spiders tothat that change ALOT. this stats set wont allow you to only get one class of ships

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2ptb9zsg9zxnfls


and just a side note, i made a calc on round 32 ur stats, where you could not build anything agianst that cath CO fleet

http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dkf6y39e4z9qe2u cath vrs terran
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=bgk9n2943eye3i5 CATH vrs cath
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=vwgxgzsgy5v8fie cath vrs xan
http://game.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ydbi2pa7147ws7g cath vrs zik
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