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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:26   #1
CrashTester
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Stop the war? Not in my name

The anti-war demonstrations once again received reverential, wall-to-wall coverage on the BBC. What they didn’t show you, unless I missed it, was the standing ovation for our armed forces at the rugby international at Twickenham.

I didn’t detect much dissent among the 75,000 England and Scotland fans when it came to expressing support for our servicemen and women in the Gulf.

But it was a useful reminder that no matter how much noise the “Stop the war” crowd make, no matter how much uncritical airtime they receive, no matter how much of a nuisance they make of themselves, they don’t, as they like to claim, speak for the majority of people in Britain.

They may appear to be winning the propaganda war, they may be dominating the airwaves, they may be shouting loudest.

But they’ve lost the battle for hearts and minds.

The latest opinion poll has 56 per cent of people in favour of the war, with just 37 per cent opposed.

According to a YouGov survey, 65per cent of people trust Tony Blair to make the right decisions about military action in Iraq.

You certainly wouldn’t get that impression from listening to the phone-ins on Five Live, the BBC’s answer to al-Jazeera.

Occasionally a pro-war voice sneaks on air under the radar, only to be greeted with ridicule and disbelief.

Otherwise it’s a constant diatribe of “millions of dead Iraqi bay-bees”, “it’s all about oil”, “Bush is worse than Saddam”, “Blair is a war criminal”, blah, blah, blah.

But then, what else do you expect? The BBC’s idea of “balance” these days reflects the world view of the Guardianistas who work there.

They’re the same kind of people who have been running the education system for years.

As I said on Friday, you shouldn’t read too much into the schoolkids’ protests. But it does help to illustrate some of the rubbish they get drummed into their heads these days.

I doubt many of them could point to Baghdad on the map. They don’t get taught proper geography any more.

Instead they’re told about American “imperialism” and the nasty “multee-nashnuls” and evil oil barons polluting the ozone layer and poisoning bay-bees in the Third World.

So it doesn’t take much to persuade them to side with Saddam against George W Bush.

If you get drip-fed a constant diet of anti-American propaganda, some of it is bound to sink in.

Let’s get one thing straight. The so-called “warmongers” are just as keen on peace as everyone else.

But we understand that the world changed for ever on September 11. Rogue states which sponsor terrorism and seek to manufacture or obtain weapons of mass destruction must be confronted.

Tyrants like Saddam must be taken down.

Why is it the “Not In My Name” crowd seek to deny the Iraqi people the freedom they themselves enjoy?

Come to that, why do peace demonstrators seem so keen on violence against the police and criminal damage?

And why, if they hate war, do so many of them wear combat fatigues?

The number of marchers over the past few weeks may have convinced some people that Britain is overwhelmingly against this war. But the anti-war brigade are preaching to the converted.

You rarely get marches for something. But that doesn’t mean the protesters have won the argument.

As the polls show, the majority of people now support the war and are rallying round the Prime Minister and the armed forces.

That’s not to say we don’t have reservations.

We do. But we’re grown-up enough to appreciate that sometimes you have to be prepared to take difficult decisions and undertake hazardous operations for the greater good.

“Not In My Name” is a no-cost option. It’s also a no-hope option.

I don’t doubt the sincerity of many of those who continue protesting while our troops are risking their lives for our freedom and security.

They’re just plain wrong, that’s all.

And ask yourself this. If push came to shove, who would you want on your side — the ragbag army of 200,000 whistle-blowing Trots, madwomen and excitable schoolchildren?

Or the real Army? You didn’t have to be at Twickenham on Saturday to know the right answer.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:35   #2
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I could sit and counter every point there , but its far simpler to point out the obvious one.

When people thought they could end the war before it started , they tried. It failed.

people now support the war because they want it to be over as quickly as possible. Opinion polls mean absoloutely **** all when your friends and neighbours are dying thousands of miles away for a war you didnt want.

What people are voting for now is not that the war is right ,but that they want it fought as well as possible for as short a time as possible.

Nothing more.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:38   #3
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Hmm. Before the war a majority in britain WAS antiwar. After the war started it changed more and more. The same in America. The ppl get patr-idiotic. Most of them probably think, that with being unpatriotic they would harm their "boys", who are already facing enough trouble.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:48   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anaximander
Hmm. Before the war a majority in britain WAS antiwar.
Since when?

Yes 1 million turned up to the anti-war protest in London, but you dont get pro-war protests to compare to that. Out of all the people i know i would say more were pro war than anti war, even before the war started.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:53   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by JC
Since when?

Yes 1 million turned up to the anti-war protest in London, but you dont get pro-war protests to compare to that. Out of all the people i know i would say more were pro war than anti war, even before the war started.

Must be a local thing, because i would say that before i started , the majority of people i know here were opposed. Now theyre of the opinion that its a bad thing ,but they want it ended , hence they want Hussein dead , and the troops home.

Working in a bank , the majority of staff want this war over ASAP because its affecting profits , and thus share options , bonuses , etc etc.

Everyone has their own reasons for wanting the war to end.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:55   #6
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Never trust the ratings. They are always wrong, or so it seems.

Anyways, Anaximander had a point. Kurashima too.
But, these things go up and down. If the war last much longer, and more coaltion forces die, the anti-war people are coming upward again.
But, to me, as a anti-war person, when i watch the news, i find too much pro-war propaganda, while you, as a pro-war person, finds too much anti-war propaganda.
Strange, that?
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:55   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by JC
Since when?

Yes 1 million turned up to the anti-war protest in London, but you dont get pro-war protests to compare to that. Out of all the people i know i would say more were pro war than anti war, even before the war started.
Here you are. One randomly picked site.

Perhaps I should add the URL too, sigh...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...raq_poll.shtml
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:56   #8
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The threshold for admitting that your own country sucks is high, if you do you are obliged to do something about it. If you are too lazy to care, or plain don't know **** about anything, the easiest way to get of the hook when someone asks you a tricky question is to say you trust the goverment.

That way you can keep watching rugby and feel good about yourself.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:56   #9
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No problem with getting rid of Saddam myself. As long as our forces get home ASAP.

It's the pigs ear our govt along with the US have made with international diplomacy that worries me.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:57   #10
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Lies, damn lies and statistics.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 22:59   #11
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:03   #12
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1 mill protestors? how many people in the uk again? about 60mill? ok not all anti-war protests go marching but it doesnt count for much when you look at it like that
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:03   #13
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Quote:
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Lies, damn lies and statistics.
Statistics are always lying. I did enough myself, so I should know....
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:06   #14
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Richard LittleJohn is a c*nt

Richard Littlejohn is the TV/Radio equivalent of a Troll.

He does what he does , and he does it well, like an era of shock jocks before him. That said , hes not on the level of someone like Chris Morris.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:07   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by sh@dow
1 mill protestors? how many people in the uk again? about 60mill? ok not all anti-war protests go marching but it doesnt count for much when you look at it like that
Get rid of people who are too old (quite a significant number), people who are far too young (also significant), people who aren't fit to march, etc and it's probably not that bad. Remember some people still have to run the country
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:10   #16
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The original post is simply genius. An excellent pastiche of the "The state hates the state" type argument we don't see enough of these days.

A-

However, I can't really give it any higher since it didn't blame that much on black single mothers and how our schools are turniing our kids into homosexuals.

Incidentally, Tony Blair (I'm told) has actually written to Greg Dyke complaining about anti-war bias at the BBC, so you're in good company.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:12   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by sh@dow
1 mill protestors? how many people in the uk again? about 60mill? ok not all anti-war protests go marching but it doesnt count for much when you look at it like that
One million is an awful lot. The westernized population is quite indifferent in political affairs and it takes a lot of work to get this organiced. You need licences, parking and transport capabilities. You have to combine lots different organisation, publish the event, pay for the publishing and you need ppl that organice the protestors, so they don't wander around in places you don't want to have them.


You should try this yourself once.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:12   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anaximander
Here you are. One randomly picked site.

Perhaps I should add the URL too, sigh...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...raq_poll.shtml
From your source...

45 per cent of the sample feel the UK should not take part in a war "with or without a fresh mandate from the United Nations."

45% is not a majority.

Anyways, stats like that can easily be made to show whatever the writer of the article wants it to show. I'm sure i could find 10 different polls all with 10 different figures on how many people are pro and anti war, some would show a majority anti war and some wouldnt.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:12   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
The original post is simply genius. An excellent pastiche of the "The state hates the state" type argument we don't see enough of these days.

A-

However, I can't really give it any higher since it didn't blame that much on black single mothers and how our schools are turniing our kids into homosexuals.

Incidentally, Tony Blair (I'm told) has actually written to Greg Dyke complaining about anti-war bias at the BBC, so you're in good company.
It stopped just short of trolling by avoiding the Black single mothers /homosexuals crap and sensationalising the point , hence , its deserves its A+.

Amazingly , it managed to stay almost completely on topic until you introduced that.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:17   #20
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The problem with "asking people around you" is that humans run in packs. We keep like-minded friends (for the most part) and our co-workers share our objectives.

We also tend to write off anything we don't agree with as "bull**** propoganda" when the entire point is to tell you the truth whether you like it or not.

Support for the war will increase during the war for various reasons, from realization we won't stop to supporting the troops. Support will decrease as casualties increase and the war drags out.

oh, and it's not a "cop-out" to say you trust your government. You fking elected them to do a job that not everyone can do. You cast your vote as a vote of confidence that those people can take information that you don't have access to and apply it in a manner that is best for your nation as a whole. People get angry when politicians "pander" to people, unless of course, that person happens to be you.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:17   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by JC
From your source...

45 per cent of the sample feel the UK should not take part in a war "with or without a fresh mandate from the United Nations."

45% is not a majority.

Anyways, stats like that can easily be made to show whatever the writer of the article wants it to show. I'm sure i could find 10 different polls all with 10 different figures on how many people are pro and anti war, some would show a majority anti war and some wouldnt.
I'm pretty sure anyone of average intelligence could use any figures to prove anything.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:18   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by JC
From your source...

45 per cent of the sample feel the UK should not take part in a war "with or without a fresh mandate from the United Nations."

45% is not a majority.

Anyways, stats like that can easily be made to show whatever the writer of the article wants it to show. I'm sure i could find 10 different polls all with 10 different figures on how many people are pro and anti war, some would show a majority anti war and some wouldnt.
These 45% are a majority. The majority of the ppl with an opinion.
But you're right. The polls aren't very expressiv and numbers will change. I just took the first I found and not the best one to proove my point.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:21   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks


Incidentally, Tony Blair (I'm told) has actually written to Greg Dyke complaining about anti-war bias at the BBC, so you're in good company.
Anti War bias?

BBC news seems to be pro war in places, especially in it's "news specials".
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:21   #24
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heh

Imagine this was a war in South korea, not iraq

Different lead up circumstances.

Youd still get a sizeable percentage pro war, and a sizeable percentage anti war, regardless.

There is a minority imho of people who are willing to keep an open mind, and base their opinion on circumstances.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:25   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by sh@dow
1 mill protestors? how many people in the uk again? about 60mill? ok not all anti-war protests go marching but it doesnt count for much when you look at it like that
Additionally, the UK has 1.6 million muslims. So assuming that muslims would be more sensative to this war than others and would have cause for protest, the 1 million protesters really isnt that much at all.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:27   #26
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Yeah I hate the way people of a certain religion or race all think alike.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:29   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurashima
Richard Littlejohn is the TV/Radio equivalent of a Troll.

He does what he does , and he does it well, like an era of shock jocks before him. That said , hes not on the level of someone like Chris Morris.
You only say that because you largely disagree with his views and how he expresses them, people who like him would think the probably think the same of the columnists you admire.

So what is a Troll? Someone you dont agree with?
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:35   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
You only say that because you largely disagree with his views and how he expresses them, people who like him would think the probably think the same of the columnists you admire.

So what is a Troll? Someone you dont agree with?

Actually , ive experienced a lot of Littlejohn over the course of his newspaper columns , and his Radio 5 shows over the past few years. Hes not known for sticking to his guns.

On occasion , ill agree with what Littlejohn says. That said , if i agree with what he says one week , next week he will take completely the opposite stance as its the populist stance of the week.

Take an opinion. Stick to it. If you believe in it , back it , dont change your mind because its either more controversial , or more popular.

Littlejohn is an idiot.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:35   #29
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90% of Statistics are made up on the spot.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:41   #30
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Alledgedly 1 million people protested.

Our Country has an estimated population of 60 Million. (Guesstimate so dont flame me)

So 1/60th Dissagree with the war to the extent that they protest.

What about the views of the other 59 Million?

Are we to assume that they support the war?

Ludicrous, given that a lot will not have had the opportunity to protest, or the means, or the will?

But also ludicrous to assume they are against it.

The only way to accurately assess who is for and against would be to ask everyone.
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:44   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sub
I'm pretty sure anyone of average intelligence could use any figures to prove anything.
What like claiming that just one 60th of a country's population people turning up protesting against the war is significant?
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:48   #32
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hehe..watch the anti war mob getting pasted on BBC 1 question time...the indepentant columnist just got well fked by an iraqi woman in the audience
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Unread 27 Mar 2003, 23:57   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
What like claiming that just one 60th of a country's population people turning up protesting against the war is significant?
When was the last time you had 1 million protestors on one spot in GB or even the USA?
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 00:09   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
What like claiming that just one 60th of a country's population people turning up protesting against the war is significant?
Considering the number of people who don't even bother voting, are you that surprised? Besides, would you really want 31 million people walking in London? And I said, you can discount probably 30 million at least from the number.
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 00:27   #35
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There was much more than 1 million on the february 15th demonstration, anybody there could have told you that.

The last on (22nd March) had a guesstimate of between 500,000 and 1000,000 there. Not bad for four days notice.
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 00:35   #36
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The implication that people can't be against the war and support our troops is a manipulative lie. (e.g., "They need to stop protesting because it's time to support our troops" etc.)

lies make baby jesus cry
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 02:11   #37
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you're actually assuming that the 1million or what ever people that marched actually opposed the war or was anti-war and didn't just turn up because "their best mate was going" or they were mis-informed and thought it was a mass tomato splatting festival.

IIRC there were masses of propoganda leaflets all over the underground in london, and most omitted why there was a war and such.
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 06:16   #38
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Originally posted by Judge
90% of Statistics are made up on the spot.
The other 10% are made up much later, after 5 or 6 rounds of Guiness and a fat doobie!
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 06:18   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Luckeh!!!!
you're actually assuming that the 1million or what ever people that marched actually opposed the war or was anti-war and didn't just turn up because "their best mate was going" or they were mis-informed and thought it was a mass tomato splatting festival.

IIRC there were masses of propoganda leaflets all over the underground in london, and most omitted why there was a war and such.
Do you have any idea how many horny college boys lined-up a quick piece of trim for that nght after the rally? What do you think most of our parents were doing in the Sixties?
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 06:21   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by M_Drudge
The other 10% are made up much later, after 5 or 6 rounds of Guiness and a fat doobie!
Damn, you found me out......

How did you know I had been on the Guinness?
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 06:23   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by M_Drudge
Do you have any idea how many horny college boys lined-up a quick piece of trim for that nght after the rally? What do you think most of our parents were doing in the Sixties?
It was probably a case of boys chasing boys.
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 06:28   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Intervention
There was much more than 1 million on the february 15th demonstration, anybody there could have told you that.

The last on (22nd March) had a guesstimate of between 500,000 and 1000,000 there. Not bad for four days notice.
The numbers are pretty much irrelevant, the only way they could be, is if more then 50% of the voting population were to protest.

1 million or 2 million? that fact remains that it was not a MAJORITY of the people in the UK.
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 06:39   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judge
It was probably a case of boys chasing boys.

:eek:

Good one!
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 15:31   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judge
The numbers are pretty much irrelevant, the only way they could be, is if more then 50% of the voting population were to protest.

1 million or 2 million? that fact remains that it was not a MAJORITY of the people in the UK.
If 31 million people were marching in London the country would collapse.
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 17:19   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sub
If 31 million people were marching in London the country would collapse.
Yep, there would be one big bludy hole, where it all dissapeared down the Tube. (Sub-way, Metro, Underground, Railway for non UKers)
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 19:00   #46
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Why did they go to war when the inspections started to work???
I think they would have managed to disarm Saddam if they have given UN and their inspectors more time....
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Unread 28 Mar 2003, 19:28   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carcharot
Why did they go to war when the inspections started to work???
becose Saddam smells of Cheese
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Unread 29 Mar 2003, 15:06   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Judge
Yep, there would be one big bludy hole, where it all dissapeared down the Tube. (Sub-way, Metro, Underground, Railway for non UKers)
I was refering to the economy.
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Unread 29 Mar 2003, 15:11   #49
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Exclamation

It's impossible to tell how many people support or don't support the war, but opinion polls give a fairly good guide. This is one of the problems with Representative Democracy - you only have a truely accurate gauge of people's opinions every 5 years or so. And even then, it's not issue-specific.

Sorry, starting to sound like Rousseau there.
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Unread 29 Mar 2003, 15:13   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kurashima
Must be a local thing, because i would say that before i started , the majority of people i know here were opposed. Now theyre of the opinion that its a bad thing ,but they want it ended , hence they want Hussein dead , and the troops home.

Working in a bank , the majority of staff want this war over ASAP because its affecting profits , and thus share options , bonuses , etc etc.

Everyone has their own reasons for wanting the war to end.
Nobody i know was pro war before the war. now people are supporting the troops but still complain that we shouldnt be there to start with. I'd be interested to see what age brackets and which sections of society are for/against the war.
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