It's Illegal To Defend Yourself.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Similar gun laws in other countries, fewer gun deaths.

It's not the presence of guns on its own.

similar gun laws does not nescessarily mean similar proliferation of guns. However you are still right to some degree, it isn't just about the guns themselves.

[cnaw]

Originally posted by Sub
Saying that a camera watching your every move is an invasion of privacy is silly - it's just for your protection. If you're not a criminal, what do you have to worry about?

In some states (in the good old USA) Oral sex is still a crime. Can u imagine the outcry if camera's were stuck in houses in those states?

[Judge]

Originally posted by QazokRouge5
You hit the nail on the head. But I don't know what I would do if it happened again. Dont want to think about it.


Well I'v ebeen in court, and consulting with lawyers all day.
And the judge decided that I was acting in self defence, and that the charges should be dropped.

I'm glad that happened, but slightly miffed about the large amount of bail I had to pay. Anyway, I'm glad this is over.

You should have refused to pay the bail, and stayed in Prison, that would have showed them.

Then you could have pursued a false arrest and imprisonment suit against the Police, got a load of compo, and bought even more illegally held firearms, then killed even more passing burglars..................


What a joyous life.

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Leshy
Both of you seem to miss the concept that the burglar did not raise his shotgun until Qazok came at him with a gun.

I'm not at all questioning why Qazok shot the guy once the confrontation was there, I am questioning why Qazok immediately grabbed a gun and forced a confrontation.

BECAUSE THERE WAS SOMEONE WHO HAD BROKEN INTO HIS HIS HOUSE YOU LUNATIC, WHEN YOU HEAR AN INTRUDER DOWNSTAIRS YOU PROBABLY SHOULDNT GO DOWN WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD SAYING "EXCUSE ME MY GOOD MAN, WELCOME TO MY HUMBLE ABODE, HOW MAY I HELP YOU RELIEVE ME OFF ALL MY HARDEARNED POSSESSIONS WHICH SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET TOLD ME ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE LIFE OF ANY HUMAN ALIVE". WE'RE ALL SORRY HE HAD THE LACK OF SOCIAL COURTESY TO INTERRUPT THE BURGLAR WHILE HE WAS DOING HIS JOB AND DECIDED TO "START A CONFRONTATION AGAINST AN ARMED CRIMINAL WHO WAS ROBBING HIS HOUSE" INSTEAD OF DOING THE NOBLE THING AND COMING DOWN NAKED AND UNARMED AND ASKING THE BURGLAR IF HE NEEDED ANY ASSISSTANCE LOCATING THE MORE EXPENSIVE ITEMS THAT HE OWNED, HE OBVIOUSLY DESERVES TO DIE FOR BEING SO UNJUSTIFIABLY AGGRESSIVE AND THOUGHTLESS, AND NOW HES ENDED UP KILLING AN INNOCENT MAN WHOSE ONLY CRIME WAS ARMED ROBBERY AND POINTING A SHOTGUN AT A 16 YEAR OLD THIS IS A TRAGEDY OF EPIC PROPORTIONS AND IF SHAKESPEARE WERE STILL ALIVE HE WOULD PROBABLY WRITE AT LEAST 8 PLAYS ABOUT IT.


holy shit, the lengths some people will go to try and bend reality to fit their value judgements never ceases to amaze me.

[Sub]

Originally posted by cnaw
In some states (in the good old USA) Oral sex is still a crime. Can u imagine the outcry if camera's were stuck in houses in those states?

The laws are there for a reason. If you intend to break them, you shouldn't complain if you are punished.

[Aryn]

y'know.. if you point a gun at a police officer.. doesn't matter if the thing is loaded or not, they will shoot you right away, no questions asked.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Nodrog

(stuff)

is succinct a word that escaped your vocabulary?

[Mushroom]

Originally posted by Leshy
Both of you seem to miss the concept that the burglar did not raise his shotgun until Qazok came at him with a gun.

I'm not at all questioning why Qazok shot the guy once the confrontation was there, I am questioning why Qazok immediately grabbed a gun and forced a confrontation.

So, he bobs in, says "aah, i see you have a shotgun - just a sec"
then leaves and goes to get his gun, returns, says "sorry about that" and shoots him?
Really?

[Structural Integrity]

Originally posted by Nodrog
BECAUSE THERE WAS SOMEONE WHO HAD BROKEN INTO HIS HIS HOUSE YOU LUNATIC, WHEN YOU HEAR AN INTRUDER DOWNSTAIRS YOU PROBABLY SHOULDNT GO DOWN WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD SAYING "EXCUSE ME MY GOOD MAN, WELCOME TO MY HUMBLE ABODE, HOW MAY I HELP YOU RELIEVE ME OFF ALL MY HARDEARNED POSSESSIONS WHICH SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET TOLD ME ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE LIFE OF ANY HUMAN ALIVE". WE'RE ALL SORRY HE HAD THE LACK OF SOCIAL COURTESY TO INTERRUPT THE BURGLAR WHILE HE WAS DOING HIS JOB AND DECIDED TO "START A CONFRONTATION AGAINST AN ARMED CRIMINAL WHO WAS ROBBING HIS HOUSE" INSTEAD OF DOING THE NOBLE THING AND COMING DOWN NAKED AND UNARMED AND ASKING THE BURGLAR IF HE NEEDED ANY ASSISSTANCE LOCATING THE MORE EXPENSIVE ITEMS THAT HE OWNED, HE OBVIOUSLY DESERVES TO DIE FOR BEING SO UNJUSTIFIABLY AGGRESSIVE AND THOUGHTLESS, AND NOW HES ENDED UP KILLING AN INNOCENT MAN WHOSE ONLY CRIME WAS ARMED ROBBERY AND POINTING A SHOTGUN AT A 16 YEAR OLD THIS IS A TRAGEDY OF EPIC PROPORTIONS AND IF SHAKESPEARE WERE STILL ALIVE HE WOULD PROBABLY WRITE AT LEAST 8 PLAYS ABOUT IT.


holy shit, the lengths some people will go to try and bend reality to fit their value judgements never ceases to amaze me.

Nod, Nod.... take it easy....

WHY did Qazoc grab a gun after he heard a window being smashed? How many windows smashed in the US are smashed by burglars?

Leshy's question is just. A smashed window isn't a reason for grabbing for your gun right away, or you must be damn paranoid.
Ofcourse, I cannot judge the situation at that moment as Qazok didn't give enough information (was it night? Was it a loud noise? etc). Perhaps grabbing the gun was a logical reaction.

I think that's what Leshy means.

Burglers would have no need to bring a gun in the first place, if not every single home had a gun. There would be no 'need' to take that step as they could be sure noone in the place they went to had one.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Mistar Bataur
Burglers would have no need to bring a gun in the first place, if not every single home had a gun. There would be no 'need' to take that step as they could be sure noone in the place they went to had one.

alternatively they would still take one, because the person with a hammer/knife/assorted kitchen implement will always give up when faced with a sawn-off pointed at their head.

Unless they are stupid, in which case they probably deserve to be shot.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity

Leshy's question is just. A smashed window isn't a reason for grabbing for your gun right away, or you must be damn paranoid.

I think that's what Leshy means.

Leshy's argument is still stupid. you have done nothing to rectify it.

what innocent thing would cause the sound of smashing glass in the middle of the night? kamikaze bats? Directionally impared snowy owls? freak meteor storms?

smashing glass isn't a spontaneous thing you know, if I heard it, I would be armed when I investigate.

[Sub]

What if a small child was playing with a very powerful radiator outside that raised the temperature of the glass significantly, then it started to rain? The glass would (probably) break, but it wouldn't have been an intruder!

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Sub
What if a small child was playing with a very powerful radiator outside that raised the temperature of the glass significantly, then it started to rain? The glass would (probably) break, but it wouldn't have been an intruder!

aah yes, sudden thermal gradients caused by irresponsible and reckless youth... happens every day round here

[Sub]

It's probably as likely to happen as the original scenario.

Originally posted by Radical Edward
alternatively they would still take one, because the person with a hammer/knife/assorted kitchen implement will always give up when faced with a sawn-off pointed at their head.

Unless they are stupid, in which case they probably deserve to be shot.

That's the alternative yes, and I very much agree it's hard to decide wich one it is.

I believe that the more 'extreme' scenarios are created due to the increasing limits for acceptance. People don't view guns as an extreme solution anymore. That's the problem.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Structural Integrity
WHY did Qazoc grab a gun after he heard a window being smashed? How many windows smashed in the US are smashed by burglars?

This is a matter of weighing up the pro's and cons. If I hear glass smashing, it could be something random (erm, a bird flying through my window?) or it could be an intruder.

If I get my gun (or cricket bat) and then go down to see a dead pigeon, no harm done. If I go down to see a knife/gun/bat weilding manic and I've only brought my "Osbornes Book of Ornothology" I'm potentially in some serious trouble.

I don't see why grabbing a gun in this specific instance is a particularly bad thing. If he had just heard a noise, and wasn't very familiar with firearms (i.e. it could accidently go off) and he was in a shared household then obviously randomly weilding a firearm would be a bit more dangerous.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Nodrog
things

YES BECAUSE IF YOU HEAR SOMETHING IN YOUR HOUSE YOU HAVE TO GRAB YOUR GUN AND GO SHOOT PEOPLE BECAUSE THE ONLY OTHER OPTION AVAILABLE IS TO DROP YOUR PANTS, PULL YOUR UNDERPANTS OVER YOUR HEAD AND WHILE SHOUTING "I AM THE GODZILLA MONKEY" RUN THROUGH YOUR HOUSE AND IT IS ALSO IMPOSSIBLE TO SIMPLY GRAB A PHONE AND CALL 911.

Also, seeing as the burglar chose the subtle way of entry by smashing through a window, I doubt he was tip-toeing his stealthy way through the kitchen, leaving little need for investigation.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Leshy

Well, we already know your position, but I can see two options:

1. You ring the highly ineffectual police.
2. You acquire some means of defending yourself, and confront him. You choose the means of defense best suited.


You choose!

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by Leshy
AND IT IS ALSO IMPOSSIBLE TO SIMPLY GRAB A PHONE AND CALL 911.[/b]

a) Not everyone has a phone in their bedroom, or nearby.

b) Not all police response times are under 10 seconds. In fact, you could be waiting twenty minutes

c) Thinking you heard a noise is a stupid reason to phone the police. If people phoned the police every time they heard a noise the state would be bankrupt.

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, we already know your position, but I can see two options:

1. You ring the highly ineffectual police.
2. You acquire some means of defending yourself, and confront him. You choose the means of defense best suited.


You choose!

Yes, or you can hide under the bed, or if you no have that available you can simply make a diversion and jump out of window and run to safety and call police and you should be fine.

[Structural Integrity]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
Well, we already know your position, but I can see two options:

1. You ring the highly ineffectual police.
2. You acquire some means of defending yourself, and confront him. You choose the means of defense best suited.


You choose!

May I add two:

3. You climb out of the window or flee the house, avoiding confrontation (but as you're unsure about what's going on this is unlikely)
4. You go to the room, without a weapon, as you want to investigate what just happened (you aren't 100% sure there's a robber in your house, depending on circumstances).

[Aryn]

it's easy to hypothesize (sp?) about what you could or should do when a burguler breaks into your house.. fact is when it happens you're not thinking about the concequences of what MIGHT happen if you do this or that.. but 'what the hell can i do RIGHT NOW!'

when it happens to you please come and let us know how you handled the situation. i know for a fact that if i heard a window smash in my house i'd grab SOMETHING to help defend myself if i need to before i go to investigate. and i've never heard of anyone phoning the police BEFORE they go and investigate what's going on. you can't say to a robber 'oh excuse me while i go back and get something sharp to defend myself and phone the police'

from what i've seen as a general rule robbers don't leave 'witnesses' alive, or at least concious

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
c) Thinking you heard a noise is a stupid reason to phone the police.

As I said, a burglar coming into your house by smashing a window is very unlikely to start sneaking stealthily after his entry. In most houses, it's not particularly difficult to tell whether there is someone walking through a room or whether it's completely silent.

from what i've seen as a general rule robbers don't leave 'witnesses' alive, or at least concious

And from what I've seen, burglars tend to make a run for it when they get caught. Both family and acquaintances have caught burglars in their house, and in both of which cases they simply ran away through the door they'd unlocked to get in.

[Vermillion]

I am quite anti-gun, but even I am stunned at the lengths of revisionism people will go to to make this seem like it was wrong.

"What if the noise was caused by something innocent?"

Then you smile at yourself, feel a bit silly, and go put the weapon away. Having a gun does not mean that you instantly put the gun through the broken window and blindly empty the clip into the street.

I cannot believe I am defending the use of a firearm here, but come on.

Had the situation been, the burgler came in whith a knife, and Quazok shot and killed him, maybe you would have been right to reproach him. He had other alternatives then, such as demanding surrender, he clearly had the upper hand.

However, the intruder was raising a firearm of his own. How can you possibly reproach him for this action?


Lets put it this way. I dont own a gun, I dont want to own a gun. I will campaign for stricter gun laws, and I will reproach people who do own guns.

HOWEVER, if somebody breaks into my house, you can bet I will have a baseball bat in hand when investigating. And if that person has a firearm, and shows intent to use his weapon on me, and I have opportunity, you can bet that i will tee off on his skull with the aformentioned baseball bat.


Now, as a seperate point, and this IS a reproach to Qazok, I would then expect to be arrested and charged in his killing. i would then expect to pleaed self defence and be released. I see no harm whatsoever in the actions of the police in your situation.

[Aryn]

Originally posted by Leshy
And from what I've seen, burglars tend to make a run for it when they get caught. Both family and acquaintances have caught burglars in their house, and in both of which cases they simply ran away through the door they'd unlocked to get in.

the robber in question DIDN'T run away but raised his own gun instead.
i can't speak for quazok but i'm pretty sure that had the robber run away he wouldn't have shot him in the back (now that really would have murder).


though i'm curious (either i missed it or it's never been posted) but obviously the police would investigate the robber's gun.. i wanna know if it was loaded? (of course this doesn't matter now.. but it would prove if the robber would have used it or if it was just a 'scare' factor)

[eple]

Originally posted by Nodrog
BECAUSE THERE WAS SOMEONE WHO HAD BROKEN INTO HIS HIS HOUSE YOU LUNATIC, WHEN YOU HEAR AN INTRUDER DOWNSTAIRS YOU PROBABLY SHOULDNT GO DOWN WITH YOUR HANDS BEHIND YOUR HEAD SAYING "EXCUSE ME MY GOOD MAN, WELCOME TO MY HUMBLE ABODE, HOW MAY I HELP YOU RELIEVE ME OFF ALL MY HARDEARNED POSSESSIONS WHICH SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET TOLD ME ARE LESS IMPORTANT THAN THE LIFE OF ANY HUMAN ALIVE". WE'RE ALL SORRY HE HAD THE LACK OF SOCIAL COURTESY TO INTERRUPT THE BURGLAR WHILE HE WAS DOING HIS JOB AND DECIDED TO "START A CONFRONTATION AGAINST AN ARMED CRIMINAL WHO WAS ROBBING HIS HOUSE" INSTEAD OF DOING THE NOBLE THING AND COMING DOWN NAKED AND UNARMED AND ASKING THE BURGLAR IF HE NEEDED ANY ASSISSTANCE LOCATING THE MORE EXPENSIVE ITEMS THAT HE OWNED, HE OBVIOUSLY DESERVES TO DIE FOR BEING SO UNJUSTIFIABLY AGGRESSIVE AND THOUGHTLESS, AND NOW HES ENDED UP KILLING AN INNOCENT MAN WHOSE ONLY CRIME WAS ARMED ROBBERY AND POINTING A SHOTGUN AT A 16 YEAR OLD THIS IS A TRAGEDY OF EPIC PROPORTIONS AND IF SHAKESPEARE WERE STILL ALIVE HE WOULD PROBABLY WRITE AT LEAST 8 PLAYS ABOUT IT.


holy shit, the lengths some people will go to try and bend reality to fit their value judgements never ceases to amaze me.

ok now Nod. Breathe.....breathe....breathe......now stop making a complete arse of yourself, and I will continue walking away from you nodding and smiling nodding and smiling.

That's good.

By the way: I don't give a **** if your TV was a gift from your brother who died from cancer or a special artifact from Michelangelo's ass. You don't kill people over things. People are worth more than things. It's just things man, even though you had to spend some of your life earning that thing. It's still a thing dude, no need to whack people over it.

[Marilyn Manson]

I'm concerned with the legal procedure they put him through. They charged him with manslaughter, then they dropped that, then they said they were actually charging him with possesion whilst under age. Did I read that bit correctly?

[Dante Hicks]

Originally posted by eple
You don't kill people over things. People are worth more than things. It's just things man, even though you had to spend some of your life earning that thing. It's still a thing dude, no need to whack people over it.

You don't kill people over things. You kill people to defend yourself. As I've said ad nausea in this thread - the issue isn't the bloody TV. The issue is a gun weilding maniac breaking into your home and threatening your life.

(Note : I don't actually think the events described in the initial post ocurred. But playing along with the scenario is still good for the debate)

[eple]

I wasn't sticking to topic, but critizising Nod's ramblings.

seriously Nod, chill out, light up you know, peace out dude.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by eple
I wasn't sticking to topic, but critizising Nod's ramblings.

seriously Nod, chill out, light up you know, peace out dude.

I suspect he was capitalising his words for impact.

[eple]

i suggest his message still sucked, even in caps lock, mostly though, I get a bit annoyed by the claim that you may kill to protect some silly luxuries (still offtopic I know, but Nod presented such statements earlier on).

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by eple
i suggest his message still sucked

Well, I liked it.

[Eidron]

Originally posted by Leshy
Both of you seem to miss the concept that the burglar did not raise his shotgun until Qazok came at him with a gun.

I'm not at all questioning why Qazok shot the guy once the confrontation was there, I am questioning why Qazok immediately grabbed a gun and forced a confrontation.

That as may be, but it doesn't alter the fact that Qazok was probably about to be shot. Also we dont know that this guy wasn't going to shoot him anyway. Im not saying that all burglars should be shot on sight, but if a burglar starts to point a gun at you it is within your rights to shoot him.

Being British I wouldn't be able to pick up a gun, but be assured that if I hear a window break I will go to investigate with my hockey stick and lock knife (also a torch maybe).

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Aryn
the robber in question DIDN'T run away but raised his own gun instead.

He was about to be shot by someone attacking him with a gun.

Originally posted by Eidron
if a burglar starts to point a gun at you it is within your rights to shoot him.

Read my post again, as you seem to have missed the point. I agree that Qazok had no choice but to shoot the burglar as he would likely have been shot himself otherwise, but that was only after he himself had created the kill- or be killed-situation.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Leshy
He was about to be shot by someone attacking him with a gun. Read my post again, as you seem to have missed the point. I agree that Qazok had no choice but to shoot the burglar as he would likely have been shot himself otherwise, but that was only after he himself had created the kill- or be killed-situation.

See nodrog's post again. That sums up your position rather well.

[Eidron]

And that is why I said "that as may be" . Still we cant go back in time and see what would have happened if Qazok didn't have a gun, so we shouldn't really bother speculating.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
See nodrog's post again. That sums up your position rather well.

So far, all nodrog has posted is capital bold extreme nonsense, as according to him the only other option besides killing the burglar would have been to give him cookies.

I can only imagine how amused nodrog must be by his succesful trolling in this thread, although he may find your head up his arse a tad uncomfortable

[eple]

heh, well in that case....well played Nodrog

[Scoot951]

Originally posted by eple

By the way: I don't give a **** if your TV was a gift from your brother who died from cancer or a special artifact from Michelangelo's ass. You don't kill people over things. People are worth more than things. It's just things man, even though you had to spend some of your life earning that thing. It's still a thing dude, no need to whack people over it.

That's a matter of opinion. If someone breaks into my home, their life isn't worth **** to me. Especially not if they come armed.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally posted by Leshy
So far, all nodrog has posted is capital bold extreme nonsense, as according to him the only other option besides killing the burglar would have been to give him cookies.

You must have missed all his other posts then.

You were the one who said all human life is valued over possesions. The initial statements followed from that, and the assumption that you own any item that may be considered a luxury.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by MrL_JaKiri
You must have missed all his other posts then.

And you must have missed nodrog's ability to troll

[Aryn]

so leshy yer sayin that if quazok had come up to the robber completely unarmed and said 'uhm.. please leave fs' the robber would have just left? or would the robber have shot quazok?

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Aryn
so leshy yer sayin that if quazok had come up to the robber

I'm tempted to start using bold and caps as well.

I'm saying that he could have avoided the confrontation altogether, by choosing another course of action than grabbing a gun and going up to the burglar. Or at least he could have made an attempt to.

Also, his nickname is Qazok. Quazok makes him sound like a duck

[Nicole]

I'm not arguing with your actions. If I had both the nerve and a gun I'd do the same. I also agree with the police for arresting you. You killed someone and it's their job to investigate it. What did you expect, a medal? Also I hope there are charges brought against you. Not for the shooting but because you're a 16 year old kid with a gun. It's against the law for you to have a gun. I'm not sure if it was your gun or someone else's but if it isn't your gun than why did you have access to it? Is it your parents'? And where the hell have your parents been during all of this? Were they sleeping while burglars smashed your windows and people were being shot?

[Aryn]

Originally posted by Leshy
I'm tempted to start using bold and caps as well.

I'm saying that he could have avoided the confrontation altogether, by choosing another course of action than grabbing a gun and going up to the burglar. Or at least he could have made an attempt to.

Also, his nickname is Qazok. Quazok makes him sound like a duck

so if your window smashed you'd run around back to safety? or would you go investigate?
i think 90% of people would go investigate, because as most people said, it could have been nothing (bird, ball, rock). it was just bad luck that it was another person, who also happened to be wielding a gun. in your opinion he made a mistake by going to see what caused the noise. ok fine, but it happened, and now he's face to face with another gun.

we can speculate all we want but we're never gonna know what was going through their heads. and no doubtly if the robber was still alive and the police questioned him he'd say 'i would NEVER have shot the kid!!!' but again it could be lies.

it's over and done with.. nothing any of us say will change it. but my argument is this: if a window smashes in your house do you go investigate or do you run away?

[Nodrog]

Originally posted by Leshy
I'm saying that he could have avoided the confrontation altogether, by choosing another course of action than grabbing a gun and going up to the burglar. Or at least he could have made an attempt to.

Start naming these "other courses of action", as you havent done so far.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Nodrog
Start naming these "other courses of action", as you havent done so far.

I have named several ones, as have others.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by Aryn
if a window smashes in your house do you go investigate or do you run away?

If grabbing a gun and running into the kitchen is an investigation, then I certainly hope I'm never investigated by the police!

[Aryn]

you still haven't answered my question.