Kai's Rd 73 Stats

[Kaiba]

Here is my set of stats offered to Jintao for Rd 73 -

Enjoy!

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=983017423412

[Patrikc]

Ah, that's what he meant with random!

[Damakles]

April 1st?......

Test feature for round 73... race removal?

[Veil05]

I really like these.

[Mzyxptlk]

Those 2 DELETE ME ships look really overpowered, and it's very confusing that they have the same name.

[Paisley]

look like promising stats

[Paisley]

I would also suggest that the races basic stats get tweaked aswell

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Paisley

I would also suggest that the races basic stats get tweaked aswell

They did. Ac/DC wise I tried to make each race best at its own ability. To keep some continuity.

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

They did. Ac/DC wise I tried to make each race best at its own ability. To keep some continuity.

I guessing he meant the race research/Construction and other stuff.

Oh and can you have same init kill ships shooting at eachother? I thought that caused some really last minute changes in current round.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh

Oh and can you have same init kill ships shooting at eachother? I thought that caused some really last minute changes in current round.

It's a little more complicated than that. The short answer: no, I don't see problems with inits in these stats.

The long answer: when 2 ships on the same side fire at the same init, it is undefined which one fires first. If the ships have the exact same T1/T2/T3, that's not a problem, but when they don't, things get annoying. For example:

Pegasus -> Fi/Co @ init 6
Harpy -> Fi @ init 6

Say the Harpy fires first and kills all Fi present. The Pegasus fires second, has no T1 targets left, and instead kills Co. Now say the Pegasus fires first and kills al Fi present. The Harpy comes second, has no T1 targets left, and sits there doing nothing. The only way you can tell which is going to happen is if you use the bcalc.

This is one of the places where my offline bcalc mzCalc (intentionally) deviates from the official combat engine: because you can't tell from the stats which ship fires first, it instead uses half the Harpies and half the Pegasus needed to fully kill the Fi, and then lets the remaining Pegasus kill Co; it's the halfway solution.

(The combat engine may have other quirks that I don't know about, too.)

[Sandvold]

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk

It's a little more complicated than that. The short answer: no, I don't see problems with inits in these stats.

The long answer: when 2 ships on the same side fire at the same init, it is undefined which one fires first. If the ships have the exact same T1/T2/T3, that's not a problem, but when they don't, things get annoying. For example:

Pegasus -> Fi/Co @ init 6
Harpy -> Fi @ init 6

Say the Harpy fires first and kills all Fi present. The Pegasus fires second, has no T1 targets left, and instead kills Co. Now say the Pegasus fires first and kills al Fi present. The Harpy comes second, has no T1 targets left, and sits there doing nothing. The only way you can tell which is going to happen is if you use the bcalc.

This is one of the places where my offline bcalc mzCalc (intentionally) deviates from the official combat engine: because you can't tell from the stats which ship fires first, it instead uses half the Harpies and half the Pegasus needed to fully kill the Fi, and then lets the remaining Pegasus kill Co; it's the halfway solution.

(The combat engine may have other quirks that I don't know about, too.)

I'm pretty sure the combat engine do ETD ships first then zik, xan, cath and ter. Which was the reason for stay change this round. Vindi and Cutlass had same init. Combat engine knew both vindi and Cutlass was firing init 5 but if the vindi killed all fi, all the DMG from Cutlass was wasted. Instead of splitting DMG from the start. So yes same init and firing at same classes is an issue.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh

I guessing he meant the race research/Construction and other stuff.

Oh and can you have same init kill ships shooting at eachother? I thought that caused some really last minute changes in current round.

OK I'll bite here. I have just stayed at the stats for 15 mins to find the two ships and can't see it.

[Veil05]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

OK I'll bite here. I have just stayed at the stats for 15 mins to find the two ships and can't see it.

Beetle and Harpy?

Mara and Gryphon?

[BloodyButcher]

Jintao has allready decided on some set, this why noone has offering any new ones apparently.

[12:49:56] <Appocomaster> Jintao confirmed he has stats for next round confirmed
[12:50:00] <Appocomaster> so you'd be planning for the round after

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

Jintao has allready decided on some set, this why noone has offering any new ones apparently.

[12:49:56] <Appocomaster> Jintao confirmed he has stats for next round confirmed
[12:50:00] <Appocomaster> so you'd be planning for the round after

Mine are up on beta, which set do you think that is.

[Demort]

Very interesting set to be honest much more defensive then previous rounds kinda like it alittle but xan having steal just looks weird

[Kaiba]

Ahh both of those were the delete me ships that the importing screwed up. Thank you for that I'll sort it now

[Cochese]

I'm scratching my head at these stats tbh, but then again I've barely had 1/2 cup of coffee this morning.

Seems to be a little all over the place, or having 4 ETD-ish races...

[Advantix]

Im with Theodd on this.

I like that its a new way of doing stats, but its just too much. All are basicly ETDs.

I would rather see that we keep the racial as they used to:

Terr: Thougher than the rest. Caths have more EMP than the other. Xan more cloaked and higher eff/weaker armor etc.

[BloodyButcher]

Originally Posted by Advantix

Im with Theodd on this.

I like that its a new way of doing stats, but its just too much. All are basicly ETDs.

I would rather see that we keep the racial as they used to:

Terr: Thougher than the rest. Caths have more EMP than the other. Xan more cloaked and higher eff/weaker armor etc.

How i read it these stats arnt being even considered for next round.
Think we going for the mz set(again)

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by BloodyButcher

How i read it these stats arnt being even considered for next round.
Think we going for the mz set(again)

Which shows your reading level when I've been told they will be run.

[Damakles]

No disrespect to Kai's stats, but if its a full uni of Etd... ill sit 7 weeks out... or use the time to do my own set.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Damakles

No disrespect to Kai's stats, but if its a full uni of Etd... ill sit 7 weeks out... or use the time to do my own set.

Please go for it need any advice just ask!

No one liked the cloak free idea, turned out to be one of the better rounds playing.

I'm actually hoping that forcing people to use ships they never have before may convert some people. Fingers crossed!

[Damakles]

Originally Posted by kaiba

please go for it need any advice just ask!

tg?

[Cochese]

This set certainly has room for lots of intereseting options, may as well give it a shot.

[Veil05]

One minor criticism (and it is minor), the Cathaar planet has more steal ships than EMP. Can we not alternate it, just it's still Cath?

[Linx]

hmmmm, just my thoughts

There are 4 races 8 pod types

Ter has zero attack partners with its DE and BS pods
xan(fr) and cath(co) can group with one of their pods
Zik(fr,co) can pair with both pods, zik overpowered?

The 40% salvage bonus for Cath would be pretty strong as well, considering they only have 1 emp more than other races.

These stats could only be more defensive if they include the old PDS!

[Damakles]

Originally Posted by Linx

hmmmm, just my thoughts

These stats could only be more defensive if they include the old PDS!

My stats would have PDS x

[Shhhhhhh]

Could you add fi pods for Ter, De pods for cath, Cr pods for xan and bs pods for ziks?
Atm those race have to steal pods if they want to use that fleet which means a big advantage to those guys that know ahead of time someone will crash a lot of pods on them.
While for others its risky to go for those fleets. Giving a big advantage to cheaters.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh

Could you add fi pods for Ter, De pods for cath, Cr pods for xan and bs pods for ziks?
Atm those race have to steal pods if they want to use that fleet which means a big advantage to those guys that know ahead of time someone will crash a lot of pods on them.
While for others its risky to go for those fleets. Giving a big advantage to cheaters.

Shortly, no. The point is to steal the 3rd class. It is something has worked in the past and will work in this set too. It's just everyone can do it and not only zik/etd. No teamup stands out when paired up and all classes are viable solo. The need to cheat for pods is lessened by this fact.

[M0RPH3US]

i dont feel this set is close to beeing finished tbh

* why do both TER steal ships target FI ?
* why TER have no teamup partner for either their attacking class?
* whats with the races characterisitics ? imo they get abonded too much

that beeing said this set has some good ideas anyhow - i just feel it should be closer to the original races ideas (give ter mainly heavy harmoured kill ships - cath mainly emp ships etc...)
i dont mind bringing in an emp ship or steal ship for said races, but this feels like just 4x etd

interesting set that needs a lot of work still - imho

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by M0RPH3US

i dont feel this set is close to beeing finished tbh

* why do both TER steal ships target FI ?

Because Terran needs to steal Fi for its 3rd roiding class

* why TER have no teamup partner for either their
attacking class?

The same reason Xan has no Fi partner, you need to steal the pods set for the race with DE or BS ships.

* whats with the races characterisitics ? imo they get abonded too much

That's kind of the point. It's a mixed ability set. Each race has the best ac/dc in its area of speciality but that's as far as I wanted to go. The race names are only there because that's how the games coded. You might aswell call them race 1-4 in terms of ships.

that beeing said this set has some good ideas anyhow - i just feel it should be closer to the original races ideas (give ter mainly heavy harmoured kill ships - cath mainly emp ships etc...)
i dont mind bringing in an emp ship or steal ship for said races, but this feels like just 4x etd

interesting set that needs a lot of work still - imho

Apart from trawling through to match up to the original spreadsheet and a few ac/dc tweaks I won't be making any wholesale changes. This is a set that requires people to think about what they are doing and use all the abilities from races to achieve it. The targeting is sound and the calcs look good so far.

[Damakles]

Ok ok ok.... I admit it....

Looked over these stats alot (while at work) and I've gotta say, the more I do... the more I like them. Apologies to Kai.

Might be odd, but its the ingal defence options I like

[ChroNOS]

No attack partner for terran is bs. That need to be fixed. I'm also not a big fan of turning every races into ETd basically, but if you are going to do it, do it progressively. This just seems like too much at once...

Cath with stealth, steal and kill ships and 40% salvage bonus? No way. I'd much rather have each races have a maximum of 1 stealth/1 stealth/1 emp /1 norm ship depending of their race.

IE: Terr full norm ship + 1 of each
Cath: Full emp ship + 1 of each...

etc

This change is too big for something completely new.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by ChroNOS

No attack partner for terran is bs. That need to be fixed.

Zik.

I'm also not a big fan of turning every races into ETd basically, but if you are going to do it, do it progressively. This just seems like too much at once...

That's your personal opinion and although it's valid the game is not based around it. These are the stats I created and submit. We are in the process of finalising or tweaking them now. Apart from that they will stay as they are. If you have any suggestion about tweaks I'm open to all.

Cath with stealth, steal and kill ships and 40% salvage bonus? No way. I'd much rather have each races have a maximum of 1 stealth/1 stealth/1 emp /1 norm ship depending of their race.

IE: Terr full norm ship + 1 of each
Cath: Full emp ship + 1 of each...

etc

Earlier in this thread Jintao asked for race characteristic change suggestion. Feel free to give them.

This change is too big for something completely new.

If you don't try it you won't know if you like it. People said removing cloak was too much. It ended up a good round and a fun change.

[reconverse]

Looking at those stats gives me a headache

Hard to say anything else at this moment, i'll check them out when at home. Maybe finalized stats with race characteristics will help give a better view.

[Lukey]

I like that this set forces people outside their comfort zone and may give people some new experiences in the game.

I haven't run any calcs, but based off a quick view Zik looks very powerful and Cat look completely unviable.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Lukey

I like that this set forces people outside their comfort zone and may give people some new experiences in the game.

I haven't run any calcs, but based off a quick view Zik looks very powerful and Cat look completely unviable.

Yeah I think the more you look at stuff the more you see. I'm glad you got the point of the set. To make people try new stuff. We might have some closet zik masters who have only ever played Xan.

[Kaiba]

I feel that no one here has actually looked at these stats properly. That you have all just jumped on sh7s ridiculously pessimistic view of community.

If we use Ter Fi/Xan Fi as an example you are saying that unscrupulous people will actively use Pegs to farm pods with questionable lands to gain pods. Giving that alliance some supposedly brilliant attack fleet (which it isn't).

Terran and Xan are both massively open to FR incs (they both only have emp to stop it and emp eff set around 120%, hardly spectacular). You don't have to farm pods as FR, you get access to vastly superior def ships than Ter has on offer.

Infact any steal a pod option you try has no outstanding benefits in doing so. I could sit here and pick any teamup apart and that's the point of it all.

The option is there to try and obtain a 3rd class but honestly there is no benefit in going out your way to devise a strat around it. It's way too much legwork and risk to implement for no advantage of note.

The best strategy with these stats is probably no strategy at all, to allow people to play as they wish as every race has equal benefits and flaws. What we are seeing is people from alliances realising this and panicking and moaning here and find silly reasons to get their way and be able to spam 3-4 ships all round.

I won't be changing the pod situation. I have Jintao that is my standpoint and I'd rather take the set down than add a 3rd pod.

Maybe it's time for some other suggestions on what is there, I'm still getting good calcs so I'm happy so far.

[M0RPH3US]

Can we have a poll about if this set Shall be Used in it current condition please!?

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I feel that no one here has actually looked at these stats properly. That you have all just jumped on sh7s ridiculously pessimistic view of community.

So everyone is just blindly following my lead. I'd love that to be true, but somehow doubt it.

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

If we use Ter Fi/Xan Fi as an example you are saying that unscrupulous people will actively use Pegs to farm pods with questionable lands to gain pods. Giving that alliance some supposedly brilliant attack fleet (which it isn't).

No then you're not paying attention, its not some briljant attack fleet, its just a complete attack fleet, without the pods for Ter, Xan fi has to attack alone, and any single Scarab fleet covers even bigger teamups.

But I think Patrikc's post explains it more clearly about the 3 pod set but not adding the third pod.

In those bcalcs you're making, are you calcing with Ter/Xan fi team up together vs def or Xan fi solo?
are you calcing with Ter/Zik BS together vs def or Ter solo?
Ter/Cath DE together or Ter DE solo?
etc etc

[Swainey]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

The best strategy with these stats is probably no strategy at all, to allow people to play as they wish as every race has equal benefits and flaws.

That right there is the problem.

Alliance A doesn't cheat they don't really have an option but to go with some sort of mix/limited strategy.

Alliance B does cheat and gains the benefit of team ups.

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I won't be changing the pod situation. I have Jintao that is my standpoint and I'd rather take the set down than add a 3rd pod.

That says it all rather than listening to the numerous amount of people who have have brought up this issue (with an easy solution to fix our concerns, which will still result in a great interesting set of stats) you rather them be taken down.

[Veil05]

Originally Posted by Swainey

That right there is the problem.

Alliance A doesn't cheat they don't really have an option but to go with some sort of mix/limited strategy.

Alliance B does cheat and gains the benefit of team ups.

Swainey, you realise the opportunity to team up doesnt solely hinge on steal pods, right?

If we're going to give the 3rd pod class, why even both with stealers since you already have everything youll need.

Originally Posted by Swainey

That says it all rather than listening to the numerous amount of people who have have brought up this issue (with an easy solution to fix our concerns, which will still result in a great interesting set of stats) you rather them be taken down.

8 players saying they want tweeks isnt numerous.

Theres been plenty of players, good players, who said they're happy with them.

I really like the stats. If you cant steal the 3rd pod with these, you should just quit.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Swainey

That right there is the problem.

Alliance A doesn't cheat they don't really have an option but to go with some sort of mix/limited strategy.

Alliance B does cheat and gains the benefit of team ups.

There is no benefit to cheating to Fi, De, Cr or Bs strategy. They are NOT better than what is already there. Something everyone is missing.

That says it all rather than listening to the numerous amount of people who have have brought up this issue (with an easy solution to fix our concerns, which will still result in a great interesting set of stats) you rather them be taken down.

5-6 people in a community of 600+ have commented. That is not numerous, that is around 1%. These are the stats I made and I want them played the way I made. I don't want them pulled and prodded and the concept of them completely changed to satisfy a very vocal but extremely small minority. That is my right as the stat maker to want my set to stay intact and true to how they were created.

If someone has a genuine targeting or int change suggestion with a solid reason behind it then I will look at it, change it on beta, calc it, decide if it's better and then implement it or not. If someone suggests that raising the AC of steal across the board would give X benefit to the stats the same process will happen.

5 shouty people who want a lazy round with a lazy strategy that allows them to play half assed by completely changing the entire concept of what the stats were intended to play like will not get their change, and I would rather the set wasn't played that have that happen. That is my prerogative.

[Swainey]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

There is no benefit to cheating to Fi, De, Cr or Bs strategy. They are NOT better than what is already there. Something everyone is missing.

Xan Fi goes from being hit first by Scarabs to being able to emp beforehand with Ter Fi Valkrye - Advantage to cheating.

De gets owned by xan and in my opinion is one of the weakest classes no real advantage of teaming nor can i see anyone picking De, so thats fine. Thats one.

Cath Cr goes from being hit first by Widow to being able to hit first with Xan Cr Spectre - Advantage to cheating.

Ter Bs goes from being hit first by Rascal to being able to emp beforehand with Zik Bs Pirate - Advantage to cheating.

So 3/4 out of the 4 team ups have a huge advantage if an alliance cheats to allow widespread team ups.

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Swainey

De gets owned by xan and in my opinion is one of the weakest classes no real advantage of teaming nor can i see anyone picking De, so thats fine. Thats one.

You can farm DE pods and team up with Scarabs so xan fi doesnt fire at you first. So its beneficial for 4/4 teamups.
Ofc its still weakish vs Xan FR, but at least you need a decent amount of value to stop the attack fleet, not just any value will do.

[imagination]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

5-6 people in a community of 600+ have commented. That is not numerous, that is around 1%.

The flip-side is of that 600+ community we have, 0% of the community have come to your aid to say how this set isn't advantageous to cheaters.

I hate that this set has gone against the lore of the races. My improvement without significantly changing the set would be to change 'Steal' to 'Norm' here you go - :%s/Steal/Norm/g

[Shhhhhhh]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

5 shouty people who want a lazy round with a lazy strategy that allows them to play half assed by completely changing the entire concept of what the stats were intended to play like will not get their change, and I would rather the set wasn't played that have that happen. That is my prerogative.

Attacking the people who comment on your shipstats isnt very helpful.
Nor do any of the comments have anything to do with 'lazy'
I'm guessing the people who are so interested in shipstats they post here are often the ones making ally fleet strat and will have no problem playing and using any shipstats we get to their advantage.

In your calcing have you seen how steal vs higher init steal works? it's basically a worse version of the suicide def we have in earlier rounds.
Because you added steal to all the races, it is more relevant atm.

For example in current rounds shipstats, Pegs can full stop xan fi, but that doesnt mess up the set too much, since xan fi can 3x attack with cloaked and try to avoid the pegs.

In your set, without the 3rd pod class, you have for example Scarabs vs Xan fi.
The scarab steals xan fi, then because you lose ships while stealing, the scarabs disappear and in return the xan fi does no damage back.

http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2jjryo2w8g853sr

Meaning any scarab defense fully stops the xan fi attacking, theres not even any risk for the scarabs, even vs far bigger value attackers they gain value by defending.

The same is true for Xan fi defending vs Terran De.

[Cheggers]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I feel that no one here has actually looked at these stats properly.

I did.

I threw up over my monitor - called the cleaner to clear it then threw on up the monitor again.

I then shat all over the chair after pretending the chair was made up of your stats.

Go fck yourself

I'll sit this one out