suggested stats fixes

[Tietäjä]

I'd like to hear from the people/person responsible of the statistics, arguments on why this isn't happening when it seems that everyone agrees that cathaars are going to be demolished and everyone also seems to agree with how it could be made less drastic for cathaar.

[Koks]

Tietäjä the stats are pretty good tbh i like the fact that we are tweaking them so we have better stats rather than play with new ones from scratch. The sugestions i made about the roach being a kill ship wasnt liked by most of the caths. Tietäjä if you can find a suitable sugestion how to change the cath stats so they have more kill ships and no emp then go ahead
Im guessing threads like this are taken into consideration and the best feasable sugestions will be used.

[Tietäjä]

If you didn't play rounds 19 and 17, please familiarize yourself with those rounds. If you did, you would know.

Let me hint you off:
Round 19. Scorpion, Battleship that targetted Corvettes.
Round 19. Mantis, Battleship that targetted Frigates.
Round 17. Scorpion, Destroyer that targetted Frigates.
Round 17. Mantis, Battleship that targetted Cruisers.

All zero-loss.

Simply moving the black widow up as a Battleship that targets Corvettes would make a difference. This is what Almeida was on about, what Gate has been on about, what I have been on about, and what was generally agreed on the thread that discussed round 21 statistics during round 21. So far a lot of people, to add to the list JohnnyBGood, and Satyr, both quality players, have expressed their concern over cathaar next round, given that the ability to buy off incomings through production has been made exponentially difficult in compared to last round.

I like the fact that we're tweaking the stats too rather than playing with new ones. What I'd like more, than tweaking a set of statistics that were found balancewise extremely poor, would have been tweaking a set where for example the default race wasn't unplayable. Edit. To add to this, this is a very simple change that was discussed broadly on a thread last round regarding the stats of last round, so it will be impossible to say that it was never suggested in order to dodge the topic. This was suggested, and it was promptly ignored. I'm sure someone will come up with the "then eitrades couldn't attack cathaar so the concept is wrecked totally", which is true, and which mainly tells about the faultyness of the design concept. The next option would be to present the battleship-battleship as battleship-corvette, which would effectively nullify the role of the frigate-corvette (perhaps it could be altered to frigate-fighter then), but these are the kind of things you should have taken - to generate a more balanced set - into account during the what Monroe calls "fundamentals" of the set, which, as he himself refered to, are deficient or whatever the word he used was (beyond my English skills).

[Tietäjä]

Oh, yeah.

And if you feel the stats are pretty good, I suggest you give the round a go as a cathaar. It'll be fun. (Now, if you say you don't want to play cathaar because they are incredibly weak, you'd better look at the "stats are pretty good" comment again).

[Benneh]

Heh, i played cath last round and had to prod a little for almost every incs. now this is nullified. ITs going to be hell. i will probably go cath this round just to prove a point, they are horrific. and i think the highest ranked cath will be there on xp.

[isildurx]

I doubt there will be a cathaar in the top100 tbh

[Gio2k]

So self-covering is still screwed?

[Tietäjä]

Pretty much so.

[Almeida]

Originally Posted by Koks

The sugestions i made about the roach being a kill ship wasnt liked by most of the caths.

if they change the roach into a kill ship it won't help anything because it would get an init of 8 or 9, which means that ship is entirely useless (chimera init 6, shadow init 7, dealer init 8)

cath NEEDS one more 0 loss non-emp def ship, my suggestion would be to change the class of spider to CO and make it a kill ship OR leave the spider a FI, amke it a kill ship, but give it init 4.

this change would mean that Cath is pretty much immune to terran attacks and can successfully stop 1 Zik roiding fleet.

this still leaves you voulnerable against Etd CO, Zik FR, Xan FI/FR and Cath CO/CR. but this change would make Cath at least playable.

[Achilles]

It should be painfully obvious to anyone who is in any way decent at this game that Cathaar are totaly useless next round because of a combination of stats and production changes. From mid round onwards they will be completely unable to hold any roids at all and so unable to build value and get a decent rank.

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by KoKs

Tietäjä the stats are pretty good

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

cathaars are going to be demolished and everyone also seems to agree with how it could be made less drastic for cathaar.

Originally Posted by Benneh

i will probably go cath this round just to prove a point, they are horrific. and i think the highest ranked cath will be there on xp.

Originally Posted by isildurx

I doubt there will be a cathaar in the top100 tbh

Originally Posted by Achilles

It should be painfully obvious to anyone who is in any way decent at this game that Cathaar are totaly useless next round because of a combination of stats and production changes.

There seems to be, KoKs, a lot of people thinking that one of the races is completely unplayable. It's funny, isn't it, on a set of "pretty good stats". But I guess, from what we had last round it can still be "pretty good" in compared to those. Is it just me or are we again waking up to the reality less than a week to the round, or is there a reason nothing was done earlier?

[Koks]

Originally Posted by Almeida

cath NEEDS one more 0 loss non-emp def ship, my suggestion would be to change the class of spider to CO and make it a kill ship OR leave the spider a FI, amke it a kill ship, but give it init 4.

this change would mean that Cath is pretty much immune to terran attacks and can successfully stop 1 Zik roiding fleet.

Yea but that would affect Zik... Zik De is pretty much useless as it is.

I could see a possible change making the scarab stronger damage and make it a kill ship. Also make the Black widow kill and int 5 so that way its offset with the ETD stats.

[Almeida]

Originally Posted by Koks

Yea but that would affect Zik... Zik De is pretty much useless as it is.

I could see a possible change making the scarab stronger damage and make it a kill ship. Also make the Black widow kill and int 5 so that way its offset with the ETD stats.

i see what you mean with the Zik DE. make black widows init 4 and i support the changes you suggested for 100%

[Almeida]

@Monroe: i hereby congratulate you to your blatant ignorance. some very skilled players and ppl who actually know how to play Cath told you in this thread that Cath are screwed with the stats as they are.
you did nothing to fix this. if you ain't capable or willing to create balanced stats (with balanced i mean that all 5 races should be competitive) then simply do not do it. you didn't even comment on the latest suggestions in here.

[Tietäjä]

I suggest you cut off the offensive tone agaisnt Monroe. I have, despite of what I feel has been constructive critisism, been told that if I post personal negative comments towards Monroe I will be banned from these boards. Regarding to what you are saying, Almeida, I totally agree. I have been trying to make Monroe realize the same thing - that if he wants to create a set of balanced stats, he needs to listen to someone else than himself, too, as his plans obviously aren't perfect - but in vain. This thread, and other threads analyzing round 21's ship statistics have been more or less ignored or left-handendly responded to by the person responsible of the statistics, and none if any attention has been paid to what the "experienced players" might think. One may make his own conclusions about Almeida's statement, my posting, and other people that support the opinion differing from Monroe's.


I acknowledge that I may be, by moderator judgement, banned from these forums for posting this post, and if I am banned for a given period of time, I hope the people who care about the ship statistical balance will keep on the attempt to suggest Monroe improvements even though he apparently will not listen to any.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Tietäjä

I have, despite of what I feel has been constructive critisism, been told that if I post personal negative comments towards Monroe I will be banned from these boards.

Are you absolutely sure that you want our private conversation on this issue brought up in public? If you are not happy with my decisions on how to moderate Strategy, then feel free to contact JJ or other senior mods like Wakey or JBG, or i'll forward on your displeasure.

Otherwise, i would strongly encourage you to drop it and quit baiting me. My personal respect for you as a poster has deterioriated significantly in the recent past because of your behaviour.

[TheShadowMan]

Ulimate Newbie,

I'll be entirley honest, if you have said that that you will ban someone from slagging off someone else you are a shit moderator. Thats absolute bullshit.

If some criticises someone else on a ppublic forum who are you to take sides. You are a moderator and should remina arbitory at all times. You 'vtaken a side now. I call you for you to stand down as a moderator.

Now to make my post relevant to the stats

I think the fact eit have two emp ships is just a little broken. I also suggest that the ranger should have its ini changed so that it only steals after roid cap.

Zik de should have been improved on, and at least steal ship as part of fr fleet.

Xan are over powered, but not from a stats point of view. Its the fact that if u aren't part of an ally and thus dont have access to a scanner, it takes an unallied planet a million ticks to be able to get adv units scans before they can attack em.

Ter....seriously was really any changes to race since last round??

tsm

[Tietäjä]

Originally Posted by TheShadowMan

I think the fact eit have two emp ships is just a little broken. I also suggest that the ranger should have its ini changed so that it only steals after roid cap.

The thing here is, that I find it that Eitrades have been given the best parts of the other races. So it's essentially a candy collection: the fast zero-loss stealer that steals for your attack fleet, solid EMP ships to stun defences with, a cloaked defence ship. What more can you ask?

Zik de should have been improved on, and at least steal ship as part of fr fleet.

I find zikonian a little haywired too. Essentially better-than-terran initiatives on killships with massive damages (thief 472, cutter 548, that's better than a lot of xandathrii manage!). I find the zikonian kill ships a bit bizzarre too.

Xan are over powered, but not from a stats point of view. Its the fact that if u aren't part of an ally and thus dont have access to a scanner, it takes an unallied planet a million ticks to be able to get adv units scans before they can attack em.

I think this problem has more to do with the scan system the game has, which encourages/requires the scanner-normal player setup.

Ter....seriously was really any changes to race since last round??

Thief was tweaked so now the harpy can actually shoot at thieves. A few damage upgrades, and the chimera, but it's probably still not one of the top choices. Overall, I agree with a lot what you say.

[furball]

Originally Posted by TheShadowMan

Ulimate Newbie,

I'll be entirley honest, if you have said that that you will ban someone from slagging off someone else you are a shit moderator. Thats absolute bullshit.

If some criticises someone else on a ppublic forum who are you to take sides. You are a moderator and should remina arbitory at all times. You 'vtaken a side now. I call you for you to stand down as a moderator.

If you were a serious poster you might deserve a serious reply to this. Nevertheless, I'm going to give you one anyway.


As we all well know, there is a fine line between acceptable 'flaming' and stepping over the edge to become simply vindictive and spiteful. Monroe has been under a lot of fire for his tweaks to the stats this round; some of it is deserved, some of it is not. You can be hostile to a poster, but you can't be hostile to them to the detriment of everything else.

Originally Posted by TheShadowMan

You are a moderator and should remina arbitory at all times.

Incorrect. Moderators are, and have always been, free to voice their own opinions on any subject. If Ultimate Newbie has 'taken a side', then it probably means that you're wrong (since he is always right!).

[Ultimate Newbie]

Ulimate Newbie,

I'll be entirley honest, if you have said that that you will ban someone from slagging off someone else you are a shit moderator. Thats absolute bullshit.

If some criticises someone else on a ppublic forum who are you to take sides. You are a moderator and should remina arbitory at all times. You 'vtaken a side now. I call you for you to stand down as a moderator.

So, you want me to arbitrarily delete your posts instead? I try to be impartial as much as possible, but (shock, horror), i'm human. I'll do what i think is necessary/right at the time with the information given, just like everyone else.

Anyway, there are two sides to the story. I'm quite liberal when it comes to moderation on Strategy, and everyone is free to express their opinion (no matter how wrong i think they might be), as the correct way of addressing that is by posting in reply. However, the manner in which that expression is delievered is very much within my purview as a moderator - if i see it as 'flaming' under Clause 4 of the Planetarion forum rules, then i have to act.

I'm not here to (arbitrarily) alter the discussion on this forum by editing/deleting posts. That's not what i do. I'm here to keep the discussion (which i am impartial about) civil, and within the rules. If you call that taking sides, that's your call. My personal opinion is that you're wrong.

I think the fact eit have two emp ships is just a little broken. I also suggest that the ranger should have its ini changed so that it only steals after roid cap.

I'm not sure that a race with a 'mixed' fleet needs hard-and-fast "You can only have 1 EMP ship, 1 Stealer, 1 Cloaked" etc rule; the composition of the race should depend on whatever the statbuilder is trying to do at the time - they shouldnt be hamstrung by such artificial constraints.

Having said that, etd stealing after roid cap is actually a really good idea, something definately worth considering.

Xan are over powered, but not from a stats point of view. Its the fact that if u aren't part of an ally and thus dont have access to a scanner, it takes an unallied planet a million ticks to be able to get adv units scans before they can attack em.

Whilst that might be true, Xan are (presently) so vulnerable to BA/CR fleets that you can effectively launch and leave and pretty much know that their fleet cant handle defending against you; the only concern is galaxy/universal defence, which you can still read from a JGP assuming they havent built alot of jammers.

Ter....seriously was really any changes to race since last round??

The Chimera has changed, but you're right - there doesnt seem to be all that much to warrant terran to not be a complete flop. But having said that, because etd can attack themselves now, and every cath know they can get free roids from Xan, the amount of incoming on Terrans may be reduced enough for them to accumulate roids long enough to have an effective battleship fleet.

Perhaps.

Originally Posted by Furball

If Ultimate Newbie has 'taken a side', then it probably means that you're wrong (since he is always right!).

I've been wrong in the past - even yesterday i made a newbie mistake on PD .