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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 00:52   #1
Kloopy
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Special Asteroids

Righty. I've not spoken to PATeam about this so I'll probably get in trouble for talking about it here first. But anyway, after a few discussions over a length of time a couple of good friends of mine and I have come up with "Special Roids".

The idea is that there are a number of unique asteroids in the Universe that can only be held by one planet at a time. These roids are injected into the Universe at the start of the round by the admins (into 1:1 say). Then the roids can be stolen in combat by attacking fleets if they luckily manage to cap the special roid in question.

The special roids will give an advantage to their owner. For example 5% mining bonus or something.

I've already coded and tested the feature and it works. All it'd take is to upload it to the live servers. Anyway, to give you an idea of what I'm on about, here are some screenies:

Universe Miscellaneous page showing who currently owns the roids: http://www.kloopy.com/fun/specialroids_2.jpg
Mining page showing which (if any) of Special Roids you currently own: http://www.kloopy.com/fun/specialroids_1.jpg

The system would log who owns the special roids and for how long, and I would be happy to provide a prize out of my own pocket for the person who owns each special roid for the largest total time throughout Round 13.

So please let me know how silly, but fun, you think the idea is!

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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 00:58   #2
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Re: Special Asteroids

I think you'll have to add more then 1 of each type, maybe 1 / 50 ticks?
Also have you though of roids that may decrease construction time, research, ship production, etc?
all of those could be fun.
It would definitely add an edge that people MUST HAVE those roids.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 00:59   #3
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Re: Special Asteroids

And will there be a way to "scan" for those roids to know who has them? Because there could be mayor battles for those roids if people just know where they are...
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:01   #4
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by paolo
And will there be a way to "scan" for those roids to know who has them? Because there could be mayor battles for those roids if people just know where they are...
View the first screenshot I posted. They're shown on the Universe Misc page.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:02   #5
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Re: Special Asteroids

it would make the game unfair; if a player gets 5% extra mining just because he got that one roid he has a huge advantage.

also if someone finds out who is holding such a special roid that guy would get bashed by many players so it would not really be a benefit neither.

maybe that could be used in some "between the rounds fun round" but in normal game i wouldn't like it.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:03   #6
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi_K
I think you'll have to add more then 1 of each type, maybe 1 / 50 ticks?
Also have you though of roids that may decrease construction time, research, ship production, etc?
all of those could be fun.
It would definitely add an edge that people MUST HAVE those roids.
The code is written so that we could expand it to include the things you've suggested, yes!
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:04   #7
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Re: Special Asteroids

Almeida - they start in 1:1 - if you don't want it, you don't attack 1:1 - if you do want one, you do. And EVERYONE can see where they are.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:04   #8
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Re: Special Asteroids

Oh, Kloopy, I still want my pink fluffy bunny roid.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:05   #9
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Almeida
it would make the game unfair; if a player gets 5% extra mining just because he got that one roid he has a huge advantage.

also if someone finds out who is holding such a special roid that guy would get bashed by many players so it would not really be a benefit neither.

maybe that could be used in some "between the rounds fun round" but in normal game i wouldn't like it.
I think rather than being a disadvantage, it'd be a good addition. There are about 4k planets in the Universe, it's unlikely that a target you choose is going to have one of these roids. And when you do attack them, you've got a maximum of 25% chance you'll cap the Special Roid. So the chances of you accidentally getting it when you don't want it is slim. And it can be avoided by not attacking those with the Special Roids.

Thus, anyone -with- them would surely be willing to take on the incoming that it produces. 5% resources for a good player in a good alliance coudl generate some fun in the constant attacks for the Special Roid.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:53   #10
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Re: Special Asteroids

kloopy I love u!
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 01:53   #11
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Re: Special Asteroids

I like it.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 02:03   #12
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Re: Special Asteroids

Put it in
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 02:15   #13
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Re: Special Asteroids

Sounds cool, but I'm dubious since it's not been (beta) tested

I'd also like to know how likely one is to cap a special roid from someone who has one or several (is there a cap to the number of special roids you can cap at a time?).

How about special coloring for the line on the top100 if you have a special roid?

Edit: I'd also say that having more than 1 of each roid would be Very Bad, because you'd just end up with the dominating alliance being more likely to have more of them.

Last edited by Banned; 23 Mar 2005 at 02:24.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 02:24   #14
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Sounds cool, but I'm dubious since it's not been (beta) tested

I'd also like to know how likely one is to cap a special roid from someone who has one or several (is there a cap to the number of special roids you can cap at a time?).

How about special coloring for the line on the top100 if you have a special roid?
It has been beta tested actually, a rather small beta (3 people), but still, it works.

Also, it is simple how it works, it is essentially a normal roid, if you attack someone with 3 of them and get full cap you have a 25% chance each of getting them.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 02:25   #15
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Re: Special Asteroids

It's very simple code. It's been tested in-house here with Bashar and DEATH2. Basically, if a planet has a special roid, the chance of each roid being capped is Total Of That Resource Type Capped / Total Planet Owns. Basically simulating real life hit and miss on whether the roids you steal contain the special roid or not.

If there are multiple fleets that cap, then the fleet that gets it (if we determine from above that the Special Roid was capped amongst the roids) is random weighted fairly by the anti-roid damage done by each fleet.

If that doesn't make sense it's because I'm crap, and I'll clarify in the morning. Off for 40 winks now. Tata.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 02:25   #16
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
It has been beta tested actually, a rather small beta (3 people), but still, it works.
That's an alpha test.

Quote:
Also, it is simple how it works, it is essentially a normal roid, if you attack someone with 3 of them and get full cap you have a 25% chance each of getting them.
Ah, cool.

Hmm, I notice the 5% gets added directly to Extraction, which means it in turn will be compounded by Engineering. It's also minorly difficult to see how much one is originally mining and how much it's gaining you.

Last edited by Banned; 23 Mar 2005 at 02:37.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 02:39   #17
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Re: Special Asteroids

i like the sound of it yeah. Can we upgrade our ships weapons too by adding materia and /or create our own upgrades morrowind stylee?

Also can we have a quick poll on the names of these special roids?
and a feature so u cant own more than one of a special roid? or else the #1 planet could run away with all of them and grow at even faster rate
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 03:02   #18
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Re: Special Asteroids

so I get to be the first guy to mention that you're over a week early for april fools?

amused me though
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 03:44   #19
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Re: Special Asteroids

I'd like to see it tried out, if only to see what would happen
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 08:52   #20
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Re: Special Asteroids

I love the idea!

Quote:
Psi_K :
Also have you though of roids that may decrease construction time, research, ship production, etc?
I think only one of each "feature" roid should be allowed. But perhaps there can be more than 3 roids. Like 1 astroid for 5% of each : decrease construction, decrease research, decrease ship production, increase security, metal mining, crystal mining, eonium mining.

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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 09:05   #21
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Re: Special Asteroids

And one bad roid that decreases your income
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 09:15   #22
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Re: Special Asteroids

i certainly like the idea, now to decide whether it goes in this round or next
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 09:45   #23
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Re: Special Asteroids

This round, this round, this round. Please! The biggest question is which roids out of all those suggeted to we have? :-)

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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 10:26   #24
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Re: Special Asteroids

I suggest a special roid of each three kinds that spawns a new roid of that type for the owner every 24 ticks.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 10:32   #25
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Re: Special Asteroids

It is a very different idea I give ye that
I still don't know if I like the idea or not coz if you steal it you gonna get everyone attacking you to get it
And when 1up gets it there gonna keep it.
Kinda gives the big players more of a chance of growing bigger because once they get hold of them there gonna keep them and if a n00b gets it they will last 5 seconds with it.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 11:07   #26
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Re: Special Asteroids

I like the idea in general. I'd say maybe 10 roids or something. If they're too common, everyone is going to end up having at least one, but something about 10 will mean that while some % of people will have it, most won't. Obviously they'd all start in 1:1, added say in tick 36. Say:
2 +5% resource income
2 -2 Construction time
2 5% faster research
2 -2 Production time
2 automatic covert op immunity

or, you can have it so one gives *more* bonuses (e.g. 10%, 5% resource income, -3, -1 construction time) etc. with a "Gold Construction Asteroid" and a "Silver Construction Asteroid", and so on
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 11:16   #27
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Re: Special Asteroids

Tick 36?why?
its not like anyone can steal it
least wait till ppl can nick it off you.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 11:18   #28
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Re: Special Asteroids

Just had a thought.
What if someone cov ops you and blows up the golden asteroid?

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Written by Kloopy Wed Mar 16 22:06:43 2005

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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 11:31   #29
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Re: Special Asteroids

The golden roids are currently separate to your total roid count. That is they're stored in a different part of the database. Thus any exploded asteroids will not affect your Special Roids. So that's fine.

We did think of extending the idea so that if the Special Roid is exiled with a planet to C200+ or the planet goes into vacation, the Special Roid would be reset /relocated to 1:1. This reset system could also occur if, by a small chance, a covop destroys the Special Roid.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 11:32   #30
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Re: Special Asteroids

As for the number of them, I don't think having 2 of each is a good idea. I think just one of each. They're unique special asteroids, nothing else like them in the Universe. And we wouldn't want 1 planet ending up with BOTH metal +5% roids, that'd be insane.

But I do like the idea of -X% construction time, -X% research time, +X% security, etc.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 12:00   #31
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Re: Special Asteroids

I really like the idea. I think having one 'bad' one is also a good idea but it shouldnt be indicated. Someone could be celebrating over getting a special one and it just decreases their mining
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 12:44   #32
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Re: Special Asteroids

I'm not sure on the idea, but will go with the flow.

Preference here would to be have one of each type of special roid, which spawns a new roid every 24 ticks.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 12:56   #33
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Re: Special Asteroids

holo roids!!!!

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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 14:05   #34
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Re: Special Asteroids

You could make it a Djinn effect. You get 5% bonus for mining but say a minus 1 on Research. Keep the good and the bad together, like Djinn does when you wish.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 15:48   #35
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Exclamation Re: Special Asteroids

This idea has been suggested in the past and I like the basic concept.

What I don't like is identifying exactly where all the special asteroids are. A 5% bonus is a big deal for a large planet, so there would be a large incentive to go get them. I realize that's kind of the point, but I think you're making it too easy. At a minimum I think the universe screen should only say that they have a special asteroid and not which kind of special asteroid. It might be better still to have them hidden and located only via scans.

Other thoughts:

A percentage bonus, as alluded to above, is bounded only by the size of the largest planet and has at least the potential of being destabilizing. Perhaps a fixed bonus would be better?

Why start the special asteroids at known location? You may end up with pod fleets constantly attacking hoping to pick up the special roids if/when they appear and, due to their number, unable to cap them when they do appear. You could just make them appear via the normal roid initiation (that is, whenever you initiate a roid it has a very small chance of being a special roid).
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 15:50   #36
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Re: Special Asteroids

sounds good, as it gives players some extra targets to aim for, kinda like a game within a game .

But I would either make a bit more of those special roids (like 1 for every 250 planets or so), or if you want to keep them unique then have more different kind of special roids (like a total of 10-15).. as it should not look like an impossible task to try and get one, it should be within everyone reach.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:01   #37
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Re: Special Asteroids

I still say once the big players get hold of them pretty quickly it will help them to much.

So I still say good idea but also bad for n00bs who got no chance of getting it and keeping it.

Unless you reach a certain score (not value) then it transfers to another planet in 1.1 again to give smaller ppl more of a chance coz i dont see why number 1 player in 1up gets it and keeps it
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:27   #38
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
As for the number of them, I don't think having 2 of each is a good idea. I think just one of each. They're unique special asteroids, nothing else like them in the Universe. And we wouldn't want 1 planet ending up with BOTH metal +5% roids, that'd be insane.

But I do like the idea of -X% construction time, -X% research time, +X% security, etc.
If you only want one of each roid type, then it's not going to be possible for one roid to spawn other roids, or for them to magically appear every 100 ticks, or for you to magically make one when you initiate a roid with a like 1/100000 chance.

There will literally only be a few.

How about the following:
+10% Metal Extraction
+10% Crystal Extraction
+10% Eonium Extraction
+4% Total Extraction
-5% Research time
-2 Construction time
-2 Production time
+30 Stealth (equilivent of 1st priority on security)
-1 ETA (extremely valuable, but watch...)

Also, another 9 roids where the effect is the OPPOSITE.
i.e. -10% Metal Extraction, .... , +1 ETA
This would give 18 roids where you might land and get a special roid, or get an awful roid . If you want to make it more worthwhile attacking, then halve the "costs" of getting a negative effect one.

Also, while it'd be nice to see where they were (even if it's only the galaxy) of the "special asteroids", I don't think that you should be able to find out ANYWHERE but being the planet itself what the special roid type actually is. I think the roids should be randomly placed at maybe tick 72 (not the beginning of the game to cause major problems with the 'start' but still there when combat exists). Perhaps if it showed up on planet scans (they seem to be the scan most suited) that in addiction to the roid types there's a special asteroid. I know this will muck up all the parsers, sorry .

Alternatively, give *everyone* an uninitiated special asteroid at tick 72, and make it cost 20,000 of each resource to initiate it. Sort of like a charlie and the chocolate factory moment, those lucky however many get the "special" roids (good or bad), the rest get a dud one that doesn't do anything:-)

Thinking about it, in combat you're only ever going to have a 0.25% chance of getting it for one attack, so it could be quite a few attacks before it moves between planets, which is good or bad depending on if you have a positive or negative special roid!

Note: Also maybe have a limit to the amount of positive / negative roids you can capture, say 2 of one type and 3 total.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:31   #39
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Re: Special Asteroids

Yeah, i like your idea noah...
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:31   #40
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah02
I still say once the big players get hold of them pretty quickly it will help them to much.
So I still say good idea but also bad for n00bs who got no chance of getting it and keeping it.
)
What if you didn't put the roid in play till say tick 100 and then it was placed randomly in the bottom 20%. The Largest planets couldnt get it quickly because it would have to travel up the food chain till it was i the hands of someone large enough for them to attack. Also they couldn't send smaller ally mates or gal mates after it because then they couldnt attack them to get it (unless ally mate quit and rejoined the alliance).
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:33   #41
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Re: Special Asteroids

If people want fixed bonuses for the asteroid things, say the asteroids give 10k individually and 4k to each (so they're worth 40/40/40/48 roids respectively, or just over 1 core extraction. Maybe it'd be better just having it as one core extraction (30 roids) ?
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:34   #42
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conall
What if you didn't put the roid in play till say tick 100 and then it was placed randomly in the bottom 20%. The Largest planets couldnt get it quickly because it would have to travel up the food chain till it was i the hands of someone large enough for them to attack. Also they couldn't send smaller ally mates or gal mates after it because then they couldnt attack them to get it (unless ally mate quit and rejoined the alliance).
Evil idea :-)
I like it
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:45   #43
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Re: Special Asteroids

Starting the asteroids in 1:1 means that noone gets the bonuses for the first 72 ticks which ensures proper playing planets are not boosted during the important round start. I do think the location should be shown all the time, otherwise they're just special roids for people. The idea is that it'll aid fluidity in the Universe as everyone chaces Special Roids about to make sure they get a piece of them.

I think also that starting them in 1:1 will stop the top players stealing them straight away since the top players will have followed a perfect tick plan and will be much larger than the idlers in 1:1.

As for negative roids. I don't think I buy the idea for now. I'd like to see how the game works with just the 6 current roids, to get an idea of how Special Roids are played in the Universe. Once we've had a round we'll be able to work out how to change them for R14. Perhaps we could even add new Special Roids mid-round. Who knows.

But at the moment, there are 6 special roids:
  • Golden Metal Asteroid
    5% increase in metal asteroid mining per tick.
  • Golden Crystal Asteroid
    5% increase in crystal asteroid mining per tick.
  • Golden Eonium Asteroid
    5% increase in eonium asteroid mining per tick.
  • Golden Production Asteroid
    Ship production takes 1 tick less than normal.
  • Golden Construction Asteroid
    Building constructions takes 1 less tick.
  • Golden Research Asteroid
    Your researchers work 5% faster than usual.

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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 16:52   #44
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
But at the moment, there are 6 special roids:
You say that as if they are a done deal for this round. Are they?
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 17:02   #45
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Re: Special Asteroids

I think most of you are missing part of the point behind these roids. The initial concept of the golden roid that we developed (whilst eating a rather odd culinary concoction and drinking beer in our kitchen last night) was not to provide bonuses. The whole point to start with was just to have 1 roid that was the golden roid, and to track it round the universe and see where it had ended up, and give a prize for the person that held it the longest, and the person that had it at the end. The concept then evolved into giving bonuses as an incentive for people to get it and try and get it, and slowly advanced into what bonuses we could do that would be fun and not cause a great unbalance in the game (and then a bet that Kloopy could/couldn't code it in 24 mins - incidentally, he couldn't). The idea of negative roids then came up, and roids that did all sorts of other things (some of them downright irritating) that weren't gameplay related (though these would be harder to integrate in).

There are therefore several things to point out:

1. The point is not to make a special type of roid that everyone gets, or to make it so they randomly appear/disappear. Half the point was always to make it so we could track where they went and make them something special. As soon as they become fairly widespread, they lose all point in existing really, and the concept is lost.

2. Displaying where they are: this is one of the most important parts of it. The whole concept revolves around this. The point is that the roids are something special that everyone wants to have (or maybe not based on what I am about to say), but has a fairly small (though entirely realistic) chance of getting. To make the chance realistic, people have to know where to go to get them. Now, there are people among you who are saying "a big evil baby-eating pillaging invincible bastard son of a peasant whore 1up player will get it, and it will be impossible to get back", I disagree entirely with this. There may be balancing issues, and a need to restrict the extent of the abilities beyond the size restrictions in game, but I don't think a big 1up planet would necessarily be desperate to have it. They would have to weigh up the options which are having a (relatively) small bonus in something or being safe from mass lemming runs that 1up will decide are pointless to cover (for those of you who have little/no experience of the people in 1up, I am fairly unique amongst the command team in that I love huge battles with big numbers on the combat reports, others, like Sid hate big battles as they think of them as 'messy'). By making it obvious where it is, it means that there is an automatic downside to having it - half the planets in the game will launch on you to get it for themselves (it is most beneficial to small planets due to bash limits making it VERY hard for big planets to get hold of it after losing it - if they ever had it). This means people have to decide whether they want the bonus or to be left in peace. But to lose it, you have to get roided at least once (although going into vacation mode would reset it to 1:1), so it isn't so black and white as "having it is great".

3. The whole point of this concept is to make the game more fun, add a bit of interest, give it that little bit extra and take away some of the 'monotony' that can set in. Make things a little less predictable, and make it so that you don't know exactly what will happen. It adds a bit of spontaneity, and just generally "that little bit extra" just to make the game more fun, and allow people to have alternative goals and means of reaching them.

I hope this clears up just what we were intending with this idea.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 17:03   #46
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conall
You say that as if they are a done deal for this round. Are they?
They are coded and ready, they can be put in/taken out easily, I doubt the decision has yet been made.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 17:14   #47
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
I hope this clears up just what we were intending with this idea.
idd.
1 free credit for hanging onto it/one of them the longest in the round or something? and maybe one for the person who had the most at one point (assuming that number ever gets above 1 or 2).
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 17:31   #48
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Re: Special Asteroids

I just read the starter post so my apologies -

I like it -
but I think 5% is too large of a bonus -

-make it 2% or 3..
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 17:35   #49
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Re: Special Asteroids

Quote:
Originally Posted by demiGOD
-make it 2% or 3..
That is a point I agree on, but it is a balancing issue, and will be difficult to tell for sure the first round it is tried.
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Unread 23 Mar 2005, 17:38   #50
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Re: Special Asteroids

I think I love Bashar and Kloopy
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