Round XIII Galaxies

[Kal]

Over a course of several meetings we in Pa Team have produced a proposal for round 13 galaxies. So here it is, discuss it criticise it, find problems in it. Kloopy will decide when the irc based Discussion Time on this will take place later today.

Signups open with 20 gals with a mentor in each
Signups are allocated to one of those mentor gals until tick 36
Once upgraded people can make buddy packs with upto 3 people on preferences screen - this works by adding a code to your planet which the shuffler will then use to move you and your friends together into one galaxy with other packs and randoms.
In tick 36, the shuffle creates as many gals as possible with packs totalling 6 people (2 packs of 3, or 3 packs of 2)
Paid randoms are shuffled first (including packs of 1 person).
Free randoms are then distributed among those 6-person pack gals based on score - this means that the better free randoms are put into gals first and spread evenly across the universe with the less good ones being added in later. So all galaxies have an equal chance of getting good free players.
After the shuffle there will be lots of gals each with 6 people from packs and randoms givgin each galaxy approximatly 10 planets.
No more galaxies are ever created
When a galaxy exiles a planet they will be sent to c200+ like in this round.
Signups and exiles (returning form c200+) are distributed through these gals with no gal-size limit, placing them into a gal in the bottom 20% by planet count. So this means that the galaxies with the most players get the lowest possibly priority on new players.

Notes:
Mentor – community volunteer / pa representative who will help people out where possible - normal players are shuffled as normal, PaTeam members moved to 1:1 etc

[Kloopy]

Of course, when discussing this idea, please assume that the implementation would be successful. All we wish to work out in this thread is if there are any problems with the logic behind the idea.

[Darky]

Originally Posted by Kal

Signups open with 20 gals with a mentor in each
Signups are allocated to one of those mentor gals until tick 36

Does this mean you expect only 200 ppl to play next round
Or will it be 20 gals with like 100 ppl in it?

[Appocomaster]

what i would like to see is when the buddy packs are shuffled, they are mixed so like, their total score is approximately the same as each others when they're turned into groups of 6 planet. This will match up well with the evenness in allocating the free planets, and hopefully mean that there's more gals able to compete

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Darky

Does this mean you expect only 200 ppl to play next round
Or will it be 20 gals with like 100 ppl in it?

20 gals with many many people in - after shuffle it will be the normal load of gals with 10ish people.

The idea behind having only a few gals to start with is that we can help people out and communicate to the playerbase in a structured manner.

[Fyodor]

being that the bigger gals get the least preferential treatment in receiving new players(after the shuffle), in reality, they may never get the holes filled during the round?

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Fyodor

being that the bigger gals get the least preferential treatment in receiving new players, in reality, they may never get the holes filled during the round?

bigger in terms of number of planets, not in terms of score - so all galaxies get their holes filled.

[Chika]

the buddy packs are not a good idea, as they mean nothing. Either go private or random. This free and paid mixed turned out to be a bad idea as we see. Lets not dig a ddeper hole in an already falling playerbase. A private round will at least garuntee you keep most of your paying planets from this round. Point is, free planets stay free anyway.

[Bee]

Why not just make it the same good old 10 ppl priv gals? the buddypacks arent really any populare afaik. Maybe add 5 randoms aswell to each gal. Would give the randoms a chance and still satisfy the old-school community.

Bee

[Kloopy]

To clarify the whole volunteer mentor thing, the idea would be to have planet number 1 in each of the 20 original galaxies with a volunteer member of PATeam or the Support people or anyone we think will be active and helpful. They'd be used to answer PA Mails and the Galaxy Forums to reposnd to any issues or questions. They'd probably even have access to a private channel on IRC so they can communicate easily and directly with PATeam.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by Chika

the buddy packs are not a good idea, as they mean nothing. Either go private or random. This free and paid mixed turned out to be a bad idea as we see. Lets not dig a ddeper hole in an already falling playerbase. A private round will at least garuntee you keep most of your paying planets from this round. Point is, free planets stay free anyway.

There are many people who think a mixture is good, and as we have seen a 5/5 mixture got us into alot of trouble this round, as you say. The above idea addresses most issues that have been brought up by our faults this round and therefore we shouldn't end up digging further into trouble.

You're right in that a private round may well be more beneficial to our current player base, but we also want to encourage new and returning players to have fun, and to ensure they end up in galaxies with other players should help them in learning to play.

And as for free planets staying free, I think you'll find that alot of people upgraded their randoms this round and alot of free players upgraded as they realised that they were in a decent gal and would enjoy the benefits of a fully paid planet.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by Bee

Why not just make it the same good old 10 ppl priv gals? the buddypacks arent really any populare afaik. Maybe add 5 randoms aswell to each gal. Would give the randoms a chance and still satisfy the old-school community.

Bee

I think you'll find that the buddy pack idea is very popular, actually. Even if it wasn't perfect the first time we tried the idea. As for adding randoms to the galaxies, this will happen in tick 36 as we shuffle. Random planets will get put together with groups of packs that make 6 people.

So each galaxie would consist of 6 pack players (either two groups of 3 or three groups of 2) and a further number of randoms. Any new signups or players returning from the C200+ exile woudl be placed into one of these galaxies.

This way, everyone ends up in a galaxy with paid and organised players and not out on a limb on their own. This, just to make it clear, would mean that during the round each galaxy may well end up going over 10 players in size.

[Stifler]

Originally Posted by Bee

Why not just make it the same good old 10 ppl priv gals? the buddypacks arent really any populare afaik. Maybe add 5 randoms aswell to each gal. Would give the randoms a chance and still satisfy the old-school community.

Bee

there simply isnt enough players to have more then 10 panets / gal, plus you saw how the last full private went. Uber blocking and then they wouldnt spilt cos to many shared gals

[Bashar]

The idea to me looks fairly sound. I have reservations, but they are about the implementation of it, and are a question of faith (or lack of) in PA-Teams abilities to do the job properly (no offence, just that experience can be a hard lesson).

As far as I can see, the idea offers the following benefits:
1. More fluid galaxy setup, i.e. unlike previous rounds, the universe is going to be able to mould itself instead of PA-Team trying to force it into a 10 player gal mould or something, which is just not practical any more, as with a reduced player base, small deviations in number of randoms/privates from previous round could instantly screw up a fixed galaxy setup, such as 5 privs and 5 randoms.

2. The re-introcution of buddy packs means that, when the galaxies are shuffled, the number of privates per gal will be more constant, as shuffling buddy packs will be done, whereas without buddy packs, private gals can't be merged so easily.

3. The idea of putting all new signups into the existing gals without creating any new gals is a nice one. It means that players who signup late won't be landing in a cluster that is constantly roided. It gives them a chance to get into the game properly. Of course, this is the part of the plan that we all hope causes PA-Team great misery and failure, as hopefully, we'll get so many new signups that this completely fails, though I don't think that is realistic.

4. We get a shuffle relatively early in protection giving people a chance to form cluster alliances etc. (and if this works, then the universe will be more compact, galaxies will be more active, and cluster alliances could potentially become more effective than they are currently, although obviously, they are not likely to ever rival the alliances we have now). It also gives galaxies a chance to form some bonds before the incomming starts.

The 20 gal idea is not one I can see any benefits of to be perfectly honest. It is not likely to be problematic, but I think the whole thing of having a mentor in them is a bit pointless. Can't see it having any real benefit as I doubt it will get used, though it might. I suppose it won't really do much harm, so might be worth trying, although I personally feel it may end up being a bit superficial, although I can't say I would object to being proved wrong on this.

I am glad to see as well that, for once, PA-Team have actually learned from their mistakes, and rather than trying to tweak their mistakes into success, have decided to try ideas with some logical basis behind them. I just hope that the implementation is done properly. That is the thing I think is most likely to utterly bugger things up.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by Bashar

Lots of things

All I can say about the implementation is that we have until at the very earlist Christmas to implement this and have internal alpha tests before we start beta testing some time around the festive period. So even if our initial implmentation is pig awful over the next couple of weeks, we'll still have time to get it right.

At least that's the optimistic side of me talking. Let's just wait and see.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

All I can say about the implementation is that we have until at the very earlist Christmas to implement this and have internal alpha tests before we start beta testing some time around the festive period. So even if our initial implmentation is pig awful over the next couple of weeks, we'll still have time to get it right.

At least that's the optimistic side of me talking. Let's just wait and see.

Yeah, well, the implementation NEEDS to be right. With the emphasis you are placing on how long things have to be done, an excuse of not enough time will not wash if the implementation doesn't work out right, so you REALLY need to get out all the stops, and make sure you do a damn good job. I read in a recent thread about PA wanting to get its reputation back. Starting this early shows that you are wanting to that, but only a near perfect implementation will actually help gain some of that once prized reputation back.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kal

Signups open with 20 gals with a mentor in each

What exactly does this achive, why not just place them in 1:2 so they can be contacted easierly, especially as lets be honest most communication will take place on IRC simply because such a real time communication is the only way to realistically solve most problems (other methods are just too slow).

As far as youve explained it there seems NO need for such a step as its not adding anything

Originally Posted by Kal

Signups are allocated to one of those mentor gals until tick 36

Fine although I cant help but again think doing it this way adds another unneccesary step in the shuffle process

Originally Posted by Kal

Once upgraded people can make buddy packs with upto 3 people on preferences screen - this works by adding a code to your planet which the shuffler will then use to move you and your friends together into one galaxy with other packs and randoms.

So we upgrade and enter the pack code yet dont know if everythings worked until the shuffle, could cause problems imho

Originally Posted by Kal

In tick 36, the shuffle creates as many gals as possible with packs totalling 6 people (2 packs of 3, or 3 packs of 2)

Main problem here imho is numbers, I firmly believe that teh key for private packs is that the resulting galaxies have a good mix, I simply dont think 2 packs is enough achieve this. Even with the randoms your risking one said being pretty much a dicatatorship and using their alliance to gain control which becomes much harder the more 'packs' tthat are thrown in the mix.

I personally really would like to see a move back to 15 member galaxies which would give the equiivilent of 5 packs (which id probally split as either 3 packs and 6 freebies or 4 packs and 3 freebies), if 15 is deemed too much then I guess 12 would be an adequete comprimise which would allow something like 3 packs and 3 freebies.

Either way achieving a mix is vital, leave it too limited and you make it easier to hand alot of control to alliance

Originally Posted by Kal

Paid randoms are shuffled first (including packs of 1 person).

Ive always thought a good idea under a pack situation is to put randoms into random packs and treat them then like any other pack. That way spaces left for freebies arent taken up. Ofc reading the next point this could be what your getting at here but its not clear

Originally Posted by Kal

Free randoms are then distributed among those 6-person pack gals based on score - this means that the better free randoms are put into gals first and spread evenly across the universe with the less good ones being added in later. So all galaxies have an equal chance of getting good free players.

I'm not sure this is totally fair, just because a player has started better doesnt mean they should get a better chance of a good galaxay, i mean most good players multies do better than a new players account but they shouldnt be rewarded for this by being placeed in a galaxy where they can do the most damage.

I know the aim of this is probally to stop galaxies having to exile inactives as much but it would no doubt be better just to 'quarenteen' inactives at the shuffle so that accounts that will be exiled arent an issue

Originally Posted by Kal

After the shuffle there will be lots of gals each with 6 people from packs and randoms givgin each galaxy approximatly 10 planets.

No more galaxies are ever created

So what happens to new signups if all the galaxies are full. Will galaxies expand to 11 or what?

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by wakey

I personally really would like to see a move back to 15 member galaxies which would give the equiivilent of 5 packs (which id probally split as either 3 packs and 6 freebies or 4 packs and 3 freebies), if 15 is deemed too much then I guess 12 would be an adequete comprimise which would allow something like 3 packs and 3 freebies.

I think this is a bad idea. From a political viewpoint, galaxies would be so mixed that any meaningful 'wars' would be extremely impractical, and it would also mean that, the bonds within the galaxy are far weaker, and people will be forced away from galaxy loyalty due to the absence of target galaxies with non-allied planets in.

Also, you haven't read the thread. Read up and it says in the thread that galaxies are not restricted to 10. So if by some major miracle we get that many new players next round, galaxies will just get bigger.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by wakey

What exactly does this achive, why not just place them in 1:2 so they can be contacted easierly, especially as lets be honest most communication will take place on IRC simply because such a real time communication is the only way to realistically solve most problems (other methods are just too slow).

As far as youve explained it there seems NO need for such a step as its not adding anything

it won't help most people, but could potenitally help new players

Originally Posted by wakey

So we upgrade and enter the pack code yet dont know if everythings worked until the shuffle, could cause problems imho

we are thinking about displaying a list of people with the same buddy code etc as you so you will know people have signed up correctly.

Originally Posted by wakey

Main problem here imho is numbers, I firmly believe that teh key for private packs is that the resulting galaxies have a good mix, I simply dont think 2 packs is enough achieve this. Even with the randoms your risking one said being pretty much a dicatatorship and using their alliance to gain control which becomes much harder the more 'packs' tthat are thrown in the mix.

I personally really would like to see a move back to 15 member galaxies which would give the equiivilent of 5 packs (which id probally split as either 3 packs and 6 freebies or 4 packs and 3 freebies), if 15 is deemed too much then I guess 12 would be an adequete comprimise which would allow something like 3 packs and 3 freebies.

Either way achieving a mix is vital, leave it too limited and you make it easier to hand alot of control to alliance

fair point, lets see what other say

Originally Posted by wakey

Ive always thought a good idea under a pack situation is to put randoms into random packs and treat them then like any other pack. That way spaces left for freebies arent taken up. Ofc reading the next point this could be what your getting at here but its not clear

they don't take the places of freebies as gals have no upper size limit.

Originally Posted by wakey

I'm not sure this is totally fair, just because a player has started better doesnt mean they should get a better chance of a good galaxay, i mean most good players multies do better than a new players account but they shouldnt be rewarded for this by being placeed in a galaxy where they can do the most damage.

I know the aim of this is probally to stop galaxies having to exile inactives as much but it would no doubt be better just to 'quarenteen' inactives at the shuffle so that accounts that will be exiled arent an issue

This does not mean that they get in better galaxies, it means that all galaxies get the same number of more active and less active freebies.

e.g. if i have 5 gals in my universe i simply run through them adding players in the order of their scores thus gigving each of the gals an equal share of score.

Originally Posted by wakey

So what happens to new signups if all the galaxies are full. Will galaxies expand to 11 or what?

gals have no upper size limit

My main question has always been why do we (I mean PA team) tries to control player/community with nothing but "ideas and/or set of ethically ok rules".

THATS WHAT REAL MONEY IS FOR!!!! If u ask me, it works beautifully.

A. Is simple. Let people do what they want to do. If people want to create a 10 or an 8 people private galaxy, then fine, let them do so... just charge them a bit more (i.e. instead of 2 credits charge them each 3) What could happen??? alliances are gonna get together and pay a bunch of these galaxies??? Well, fine, let them do it, they'll be happy and u (I mean PA team) get more money don't you???

B. Alliances will defenitely each get 1 or more of these completely organized galaxies (that ofc can include players from other alliances). So, how do u counter these unavoidable side effect???

1. Make it a set number of gals (i.e. 1000). Out of which completely set up galaxies/players will not move from their place (and thus avoiding all the people complaining after shuffle)

2. Make it so as there is a pre-tick "civil war" (i.e. tick 24) in which you shuffle in ramdom players and free accounts. And also paid accounts should be able to move freely through the universe.

3. make it so as ther is a pre-tick "restablisment of order" (i.e. tick 48) in which each galaxy gets a bonus to their galactic fund (i.e. the more ramdoms u have the more money, the more free accounts, even more money.... but... the more pre "civil war" players in it, the bigger the penalty on resources to be deducted from the galactic fund). So, ideally, before ticks start on tick 72, people could have gotten hold of extra-resources (a big number that compels people, in the fund) and the amount should be dependent on their decisions to play a more risky or risk-free round (in terms of players in the gal).

C. If u only wanna pay 3 credits then u go completely ramdom, is as simple as that.

D. make another set of accounts (1 credit acounts) which would be pretty much your free accounts at the moment. (he he, charge, money is the key here)

E. Make free accounts almost unusable, just a "point of reference". Make it almost as a manual, explaining what to do, etc, etc. If people that dont wanna pay, but fater watching the game for a couple of weeks, want to play the game a bit, well, they should talk to someone in the galaxy or on IRC to spare one credit for them

F. Last spam, I swear:

3 credits: full account / freedom to do as u please / Cannot be moved after signup

2 credits: full account / ramdom / could be moved by X or Y reasons, till ticks start

1 credit: Limited account / ramdom / could be moved by X or Y reasons, till ticks starts

0 credit: Free account / ramdom / basically an interactive manual for truly new players

***You sell people a standard 3 credits package (for $10), which they deposit in their account... they can choose how many they wanna use in a particular round, and they could save the leftovers (if any) for future rounds and/or give to friends or alliance. Attn. this could be regulated, and u could say, that for fun's sake people could use that extra credit to open up a second "limited" account to themselves OR you could trade that one credit for a BONUS package (extra resources, extra tech, extra ships, etc)... that way u (PA team) collect that money every round and some players might feel their need to multi/cheat already satisfied.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by wakey

What exactly does this achive, why not just place them in 1:2 so they can be contacted easierly, especially as lets be honest most communication will take place on IRC simply because such a real time communication is the only way to realistically solve most problems (other methods are just too slow).

As far as youve explained it there seems NO need for such a step as its not adding anything

We originally had the idea of having 4 galaxies, one for each race, aswell as having just one galaxy. But the reason we chose not to do this is because of the stress on the database. Having 2k planets in one gal would cause immense load on the gal forums, gal screen etc.

Originally Posted by wakey

So we upgrade and enter the pack code yet dont know if everythings worked until the shuffle, could cause problems imho

On your preferences screen, it would list each and every planet in your current pack. This would enable you to see who you will be with after the shuffle.

Originally Posted by wakey

Main problem here imho is numbers, I firmly believe that teh key for private packs is that the resulting galaxies have a good mix, I simply dont think 2 packs is enough achieve this. Even with the randoms your risking one said being pretty much a dicatatorship and using their alliance to gain control which becomes much harder the more 'packs' tthat are thrown in the mix.

I personally really would like to see a move back to 15 member galaxies which would give the equiivilent of 5 packs (which id probally split as either 3 packs and 6 freebies or 4 packs and 3 freebies), if 15 is deemed too much then I guess 12 would be an adequete comprimise which would allow something like 3 packs and 3 freebies.

Either way achieving a mix is vital, leave it too limited and you make it easier to hand alot of control to alliance

Due to the fact that no new galaxies will be created after the shuffle, new signups would be added to those galaxies, we want to ensure we have as many galaxies as possible. Personally for me, this rules out having more than 6 pack players in each gal.

Originally Posted by wakey

Ive always thought a good idea under a pack situation is to put randoms into random packs and treat them then like any other pack. That way spaces left for freebies arent taken up. Ofc reading the next point this could be what your getting at here but its not clear

That is indeed what we're trying to get at on the next point.

Originally Posted by wakey

I'm not sure this is totally fair, just because a player has started better doesnt mean they should get a better chance of a good galaxay, i mean most good players multies do better than a new players account but they shouldnt be rewarded for this by being placeed in a galaxy where they can do the most damage.

I know the aim of this is probally to stop galaxies having to exile inactives as much but it would no doubt be better just to 'quarenteen' inactives at the shuffle so that accounts that will be exiled arent an issue

We're fairly good at catching multis now (as far as I can see at least) so I don't think this would cause a problem. And the idea isn't to give those better players any more priority for a gal than a crap player.

The idea of the shuffling of randoms is that they will be distributed to give an even score. Therefore no one gal has a better set of randoms (theoretically) than anyone else. Paid randoms would be shuffled before free randoms.

Originally Posted by wakey

So what happens to new signups if all the galaxies are full. Will galaxies expand to 11 or what?

Please, read the thread before posting. No new gals would be created and the limit on each gal would be removed, therefore gals could be any size, it all depends on the level of random planet signups before the shuffle and number of sign ups after the shuffle.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Lots of stuff

I fail to see any benefit for anybody from anything in this post. People should not be able to buy victory. It is a game, not a financial penis war. Your ideas would be great to drive the game into oblivion. It *MIGHT* (unlikely) generate more money short term, but the game would be SHIT, and would just die within...... ooooh, 2 weeks?

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by Bashar

I think this is a bad idea. From a political viewpoint, galaxies would be so mixed that any meaningful 'wars' would be extremely impractical, and it would also mean that, the bonds within the galaxy are far weaker, and people will be forced away from galaxy loyalty due to the absence of target galaxies with non-allied planets in.

I think this is a very important point. We want to make the gal setup for round 13 as friendly as we can for both new and old randoms, whilst at the same time not causing problems for the political way the game is played.

Well brought up, Bashar.

Why not make it a bit like we had before:

Unpaid accounts are c200+
Paid are from 1:2 upwards.

Paid and unpaid cannot interact, or limited (like max attacks on unpaid, or someting)
A gal can have 5ppl from a pack and when there are 5, the gal will be filled up with randoms (like we have now, or after the shuffle), but only paid in one gal. Unpaid cannot pack.

After a set amount of ticks, there will be a shuffle. Unpacked ppl will be distributed over the private gals and if needed 2(or more) packs are merged as one gal.

Unpaid won't be listed in the ranks and (like now) cannot have the full tech tree.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by nhimf

Why not make it a bit like we had before:

Unpaid accounts are c200+
Paid are from 1:2 upwards.

Paid and unpaid cannot interact, or limited (like max attacks on unpaid, or someting)
A gal can have 5ppl from a pack and when there are 5, the gal will be filled up with randoms (like we have now, or after the shuffle), but only paid in one gal. Unpaid cannot pack.

After a set amount of ticks, there will be a shuffle. Unpacked ppl will be distributed over the private gals and if needed 2(or more) packs are merged as one gal.

Unpaid won't be listed in the ranks and (like now) cannot have the full tech tree.

becuase for the game to grow we need to have unpaid people in the same universe so they can be trained and convinced its worth paying for. Also the more people we ahve playing activly the more people there are to spread word of the game around.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

I think this is a very important point. We want to make the gal setup for round 13 as friendly as we can for both new and old randoms, whilst at the same time not causing problems for the political way the game is played.

Well brought up, Bashar.

Sadly it doesnt bring a friendly enviorment under your method. What it leads to is an enviorment that is just asking for domaination and intimatidation being the key. If we are honest the 'other' players arent going to have a real infulence on galaxies politics as single players just dont hold that kind of streangth and are open to be infulenced easierly. The only side who can have an infulence is the other pack and if they dont have the same power as the other one they infulence is severely weakened.

This simply isnt good for players both old and new and certainly doesnt lead to the friendly exhanges of knowledge that traditionally were the cornerstone to PA's strong community and which we have seen lacking recently, You need atleast a 3rd pack to balance this off as this makes it so theres a strongish group one of the packs can work with IF they feel one of the packs is 'getting above their station'. Otherwise we are just removing the many good points from random galaxies that private packs can bring to the good points of playing with friends

[Jester]

Originally Posted by wakey

Promotion of less galaxies with more planets per galaxy.

You must be insane. Just because you had one bad experience with Cryptic in round 3 doesn't mean that it's exactly alike today. Not everyone is going to end up in a gal with twats, and the possibility of ending up with twats shouldn't affect other, more important balance concerns.

This system for distribution actually gives you a better chance of ousting the big, bad political clout wielding GC, because you'll have randoms you can influence to vote against them. All you need is 1 tick of GC-hood and a minister online you know...

And if you can't muster that support, welcome to life in democracy.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Jester

You must be insane. Just because you had one bad experience with Cryptic in round 3 doesn't mean that it's exactly alike today. Not everyone is going to end up in a gal with twats, and the possibility of ending up with twats shouldn't affect other, more important balance concerns.

This system for distribution actually gives you a better chance of ousting the big, bad political clout wielding GC, because you'll have randoms you can influence to vote against them. All you need is 1 tick of GC-hood and a minister online you know...

And if you can't muster that support, welcome to life in democracy.

Lets get some things clear jester, while perhaps your too simple minded to look past the end of your own nose i'm not and my view isnt based soley on my own experiances, infact theres really no major incedent that has happened to me personally that has gone into making my viewpoint.

As far as round 3 goes i actually dont consider that a bad experiance, in fact id go as far as saying on the whole it was a very positive one. The round saw us with a galaxy that played the game as it should be, with honour, in a friendly manner and most important as a galaxy and not 10 single planets. The only negatives were 1) the way the fury Execs ended up in our galaxy because as most people probally know I hate cheaters and when you have a number of Execs activily taking part in this cheating then I find that despicable and 2) the way Cryptic acted like a spoilt brat, when he didnt get his own way and pissed off elsewhere along with others from the fury camp.

Anyway my views mainly come from other people, unlike alot of people here i actually take time to listen to new and small players and hear what they are struggling with and what is scaring them away and constantly the intimidation factor comes up and they feel helplesss. They comply or they are roided and exiled. It takes a brave free player to stand up and say "i'm backing the other guy, your intomidation tactics wont work" and theres simply not that many brave free players around as free players often dont want the hassle.

A 3rd party is needed in a gaalxy setup to remove the power each pack has which in turn removes the much of the ability for a pack to use intimidation tactics. Only then can we start to have the basis of friendly galaxies that work as one and not individuals

[Recluse]

IMO we should postpone the shuffle till Tick 72, at which time you shuffle randoms as you said, by score etc, but then stop ticks for maybe 1 day or so, to let everyone get organized etc. 36 ticks just doesn't seem like enough time to weed out the newbs.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by wakey

Lets get some things clear jester, while perhaps your too simple minded to look past the end of your own nose i'm not and my view isnt based soley on my own experiances, infact theres really no major incedent that has happened to me personally that has gone into making my viewpoint.

Ok.

Anyway my views mainly come from other people, unlike alot of people here i actually take time to listen to new and small players and hear what they are struggling with and what is scaring them away and constantly the intimidation factor comes up and they feel helplesss. They comply or they are roided and exiled. It takes a brave free player to stand up and say "i'm backing the other guy, your intomidation tactics wont work" and theres simply not that many brave free players around as free players often dont want the hassle.

The amount of randoms per buddy will be about equal no matter what setup is used. This means that randoms hold the same influence either way. Keep in mind that a good alliance will most likely order their packs to keep to size 2, or only 2 members per size 3 pack. You don't want to end up with 6 members in a gal, after all. And if you do, you can be sure those 6 will be doing their best to activize their randoms.

A 3rd party is needed in a gaalxy setup to remove the power each pack has which in turn removes the much of the ability for a pack to use intimidation tactics. Only then can we start to have the basis of friendly galaxies that work as one and not individuals

I strongly disagree. Putting 9 'private' players in the same galaxy is going to make the unpaid part of the galaxies worthless politically. If the number of packs per galaxy is increased, the likelihood of two (or even three) allied packs landing together increases, thus making it harder for the third pack and any randoms.

Not only that, but the implications for the rest of the game are staggering. Consider that having around 200 galaxies for the entire round will be harmful, especially when the bloat to about 40 members each.

Again: there will be twats everywhere, but there are inactive gits everywhere as well. Very few of the newbie randoms I've seen in my time bother to join the galaxy channel, talk much to the galaxy members or try to take part. This isn't a one-way problem.

And keep in mind that packs have paid for the right to play together, freebies haven't. Paid randoms most likely chose their path, though naturally some people will have trouble finding 'buddies'.

This system will allow a galaxy community to grow not just past the first batch of privates, but allow for the private parts of the universe to continually diluted.

I think it strikes a good balance.

You say that you want more cohesive galaxies and less collections of individuals, but you also want to put more strife in galaxies by making them less cohesive*.

I'd also like to hear how you suggest packs are divided. The elegant 3 x 2 || 2 x 3 solution won't work. In fact, you'll almost guaranteed end up with 4 x 2 galaxies that get a random to fill out instead of a packed private player.

* Though really, I think galaxies of 9 packed players will make cohesive and victim galaxies. Cohesion will be found in galaxies with 2 or more friendly packs. Galaxies that get hostiles will die to infighting.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by Strider2k

IMO we should postpone the shuffle till Tick 72, at which time you shuffle randoms as you said, by score etc, but then stop ticks for maybe 1 day or so, to let everyone get organized etc. 36 ticks just doesn't seem like enough time to weed out the newbs.

The purpose of the first 36 ticks isn't to weed out newbies. I think you're getting confused. The 36 ticks is for signups and to ensure people get into the packs they want before the shuffle. Unless you mean something else by "Weeding out the newbies"

EDIT: Thanks Jester. In that case, I see a reason to postpone the shuffle. But we wanted it early so that we don't have to pause ticks. Taking a break just three days into the game (at tick 72) is a little needless in my opinion. But I'm open to be convinced.

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

The purpose of the first 36 ticks isn't to weed out newbies. I think you're getting confused. The 36 ticks is for signups and to ensure people get into the packs they want before the shuffle. Unless you mean something else by "Weeding out the newbies"

I think he means that it's not terribly meaningful to sort by score at tick 36.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by wakey

Anyway my views mainly come from other people, unlike alot of people here i actually take time to listen to new and small players and hear what they are struggling with and what is scaring them away and constantly the intimidation factor comes up and they feel helplesss. They comply or they are roided and exiled. It takes a brave free player to stand up and say "i'm backing the other guy, your intomidation tactics wont work" and theres simply not that many brave free players around as free players often dont want the hassle.

A 3rd party is needed in a gaalxy setup to remove the power each pack has which in turn removes the much of the ability for a pack to use intimidation tactics. Only then can we start to have the basis of friendly galaxies that work as one and not individuals

Surely having 3 packs just increases the chances of one aiming for control? If two packs are from the same alliance and the third is from another, then not only do you have them controlling the newbies, but also dominating the other paid pack.

I fail to see how adding an extra pack lowers the chance of players in packs not complying with the idea of them teaching the ways of the game.

[Kloopy]

Originally Posted by Jester

I'd also like to hear how you suggest packs are divided. The elegant 3 x 2 || 2 x 3 solution won't work. In fact, you'll almost guaranteed end up with 4 x 2 galaxies that get a random to fill out instead of a packed private player.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure I follow you on this point. Why will the 3x2/2x3 solution not work and how would we end up with 4x2 gals?

[Jester]

Originally Posted by Kloopy

Sorry, I'm not quite sure I follow you on this point. Why will the 3x2/2x3 solution not work and how would we end up with 4x2 gals?

This is in Wakey's 9 'private' players scenario. I'm saying the 3x2/2x3 solution is elegant, but his proposal does not lend itself to such elegance and would require further refining before becoming viable.

Perhaps Wakey would prefer packs of 2?

[Kloopy]

Aha, my apologies. Thanks for clearing that up.

Seems relatively reasonable, but I have three comments:

1. Is the 20 galaxy/mentor idea really necessary? If the point of the mentors is to help new players, surely the new players would find it easier to send a normal e-mail with any questions about the game, rather than finding the mentor planet to message in-game. Sure in game messaging is simple, but new players might disagree. Plus the upheavel from 20 huge galaxies to smaller ones can only add to a new player's confusion...?
Instead, perhaps have the mentors and allocate them a set number of galaxies to 'watch' over (they wouldn't necessarily be in any of these galaxies). On the overview screen, have a clearly marked "send e-mail to mentor" button that opens Outlook (or whatvever) and allows new players to get help without drastically effecting the structure of the game. Obviously all e-mails from the galaxies allocated to a mentor would only be recieved by that mentor. Also, the button would only be visible while the planet is in protection, or perhaps it could move to the preferences screen once protection is over.

2. So you can only have a maximum of two friends with you in a galaxy? That could be a problem for recruiting new players. There were three of us in our private galaxy at the start of the round, however we've pursuaded two more people to join in next round, on the strength of the fact that we could do a galaxy together. If it's not possible for them to join us then they may be less inclined to sign-up/stay active without us motivating them. I realise this is just from my personal pov but I can't be the only who this would create a problem for...?
Perhaps larger buddy packs could be balanced by skewing the distribution of randoms in the shuffle, ie, larger buddy packs in galaxy = weaker planets filling up spare slots in galaxy. There would probably still need to be an upper limit to buddy pack size I guess, probably 5/6?

3. Perhaps inactives (defined as those who signed up at start but are still on 0 roids) could be automatically sent to the c200+ area during the shuffle.

- Hunk

I would suggest going back to ~25 player galaxies...
Reason being:
One needs a couple of galm8s online in order to arrange some def. With 10 player gals, that are not always filled and always contain a couple of inactives, this is almost impossible except for the VERY active galaxies with 24/7 players.
I myself can logon a couple of times per day, but can't be online round the clock (working..) I think 4 ppl in this category, larger gals would make things more interesting.

[mist]

the difficulty of attacking increases proportionatly with the number of actives in a gal, assuming they're willing to vaguley cooperate.

also, alliances tend to avoid attacking gals with their own members in. if you have 25 member gals it reduces the number of targets in the universe to a point where this isn't viable. this either results in huge stagnation, blocks and/or there being no trust in gal - which means they might as well be smaller

the whole mentors being in a galaxy thing was in order to give another way for newbies to get to talk to someone. i don't see a possibility for it to cause any problems, and see a potential for benefit and on that balance i think it's worth implimenting - something has to be done with the planets pre shuffle anyway, so it's not extra coding or anything. imo, some of the 'replacement' ideas could be implimented as well, but i don't see them as a reason not to do this.

-mist

[Seth Mace]

Seems fine for R13, although im not too sure about the 20gal thing.

[Deceiver]

What happens with the free accounts that have 0 roids at tick 36? Will they be deleted before the shuffle? That was a big problem this round.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by mist

also, alliances tend to avoid attacking gals with their own members in. if you have 25 member gals it reduces the number of targets in the universe to a point where this isn't viable. this either results in huge stagnation, blocks and/or there being no trust in gal - which means they might as well be smaller

I have an echo \o/

I feel special.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Deceiver

What happens with the free accounts that have 0 roids at tick 36? Will they be deleted before the shuffle? That was a big problem this round.

they don't need to be deleted with this system as each gal will have an equal number of them (roughly) and there is no limit on gal size so you don;t have to worry about replacing the really really inactive people.

[Gerbie]

If I had a 2 alliance block I would let my members signup in duo's. Most packs will be triplets. All duo's get joined together which means I would get a lot of galaxies with 2x2 or 3x2 members.

[Deathrow]

I have two comments on the system but in essence i think it will work well.

First: In the current set up, the 5 paying planets are very eager to get all the randoms on irc and in the game. Its for their own benefit so they will help. Add to that, that you arent adding new options for the mentor to contact them (ie. you still want to use the forum/mail) then i think the new mentor idea isnt of much use, only a time drain on staff.

Second: (this one is a bit far fetched i know Deviding randoms in tick 36 based on score can be abused. An alliance can decide to have a load of people going random and devide them into several score catagories. This way the chance to get into galaxys togather is way bigger as the playerbase isnt very big at the moment.

This can easily be done as only roids decide the score till then and a planet doesnt lose much resources if he saves up resources for 10 ticks and initiates in tick 37. I dont see a way around this but it might be worth having a look at.

[LordBrem]

This is a horrendous idea. How many people paid this round to be stuck with 5 inactives? It is not possible for a gal of 5 active players to compete with one of 10 active players - and the ONLY determination of this is LUCK.

If someone has a group of 10 friends who are all active, they should be able to make a galaxy with their friends. Then, their success in the round will be based on SKILL, not on LUCK.

What is the point of staying up all night to attack and defend if you have 1/2 of the support in gal simply because you did not luck out in the original shuffle?

If you are active, and have friends who are active, you deserve to beat people who are not. They can always cov ops you.


If you really want, simply allow private gals, but cap them at five members. But cap random gals at 10 or 15 members. This would give the randoms an advantage, but would not give some private gals an unfair advantage over others.

[Almeida]

ok my thoughts abou that:

having only 20 gals would ruin the game, one part of beeing successful is organizing your gal and work together with your buddies. if there are only 20 gals those gals will have more than 50 players in them. How to organize this? what's the point of this? it would be the same as if u put all players in 1 galaxy. u just have no gal anymore so your only source for def is the ally. i can't find the right words for that, but i won't play again if i would be just thrown into a massive player pool.
I'd rather want the gals to be cut down to 8 players and see them filled up with a 5 buddy pack like this round and 3 randoms.
i want to fight together with my gal m8s for a top 10 spot on the gal rankings. that this won't be able with your system is obvious.
i talked to some players already and they all were the same opinion as i was: they would quit PA if the 20 gal thing would really happen.

[Almeida]

I'd rather have another round like this one with all the troubles at start than totally changing the idea of the game. there always have been plenty of gals and there should be plenty of gals in the future.
and what about the allies: lets say the gals have already 100 ppl, what if 50 ppl in there are in the same ally? that ally would have a really huge advantage: those 50 ppl could def each other with eta 5 the whole round and it is really likely that at least 1 of those members is online no matter what time it is. it makes hitting those guys nearly impossible.

[Gerbie]

First of all I agree with Deathrow: make a complicated system and someone will find a hole in it. Every bit of regulation/non-randomness can be a source of abuse.

LordBrem: I agree with you as well. The current setup gives too much of an advantage to people who know how the galaxy setup worked (and knew how to put it to their use). It's not what this game is about. Better to have private gals (with enough incentives to go random) than a sucky semi-random system. There have so far never been sufficient incentives to go random though.

Almeida: the first post said there will only be 20 gals at the start during protection. Later those will be devided over a great number of galaxies, like currently.

[Jebu]

The problem with the system is not how the paid/unpaid accounts are organized, but the excessive limits on unpaid accounts. The current system makes them completely unplayable, and it means that any non-paid accounts in the galaxy tend to be useless, and hence the players often lose interest. If you are interested in getting new, dedicated users to support planetarion, then you have to give them a reason to want to play the game. Being in a galaxy with paid/experienced accounts is a good step, but their first weeks/months/round in which they develop their understanding of the game must allow them to be useful, even if less so than paid accounts. There should also be insentives to upgrade mid-round, eg. X resources per tick since tickstart, so they can attempt to 'catch up'.

Oh, and I play a paid account. Incase anybody was going to suggest otherwise.