The fourth wall and films that other works of fiction are allowed to refer to

[Deffeh]

My title is somewhat long winded, and probably not understandable

What i mean is

How come some films are able to be referred to, or played off, by others? The reason i was thinking about this was seeing the new Russell Crowe film advertised, "The Cinderella Man".

Obviously im aware "Cinderella story" is a phrase widely recognised and used outwith the fairy tale. However, there seems to be other films that its not "breaking the fourth wall" to reference to. Singing in the rain is parodied by plenty of film characters. Star Wars is mentioned all the time. Peter pan. The great escape. Plenty of others.

What makes a film "allowed" to be referenceable in other fictional works? Should all films be fair game for this? I mean, in theory they should. But if a character in a new film turned round and said "I quite liked fight club but i still think edward norton is a ****ing pussy", you'd kinda double take, go "woah" and the suspended disbelief would be broken down.

Is it purely time? Or just if the film has significant cultural importance? For instance, if it was just cultural importance, every british film made would reference to Trainspotting nowadays.

Completely irrelevant line of banter from me here, i was just wondering as to where the line is drawn when it comes to playing off ideas that have already been pitched, what can be seen as a cultural reference without using cinema to explain cinema.

[s|k]

Deffeh, I thought of you when I read this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125096/?nav=tap3

Though I'm normally a pretty empathetic person, I hate teenagers with incredible fervor. It's nothing personal: I hate them categorically, like I hate injustice. I hate the way they roam around in packs, wearing floppy, Technicolor clothes, sculpting their marginal facial hair, slapping and tripping each other, shouting strings of banal obscenities as if they were delivering the "Gettysburg Address." I hate the way they express personal inadequacy through car accessories and vandalism. I even hate the word "teens," which sounds like some kind of infectious skin fungus. When a child I love becomes a teenager, my love for him goes into escrow for seven years. I know that there are biological excuses for their behavior—their amygdalae (the brain's anger and fear center) are ballooning, their exploding sexualities have only secret and shameful outlets—but that doesn't change my instinctive revulsion any more than knowing that sharks eat people because they need the protein.

I don't hate you, but this author would. :eek:

[JonnyBGood]

Maybe they can't be connected in terms of plot to everday life? I'd say it's a combination of age (ie recognised class) and that. I mean star wars has very little physical/background (I'm lacking a word here) connection to most people's lives.








Although that said I did meet a small green man walking down the street with the aid of a stick the other day. But to be honest I pretty much kicked the shit out of him even without a lightsaber.

[Nodrog]

Films becoming conscious of their inherant intertextuality, and explicitly incorporating references to other media in a self-referentially ironic manner rather than letting their deconstruction occur invisibly from within, is a sympton of the explosion of signification in late capitalist society - the Enlightenment myth of an 'objective world' has died leaving only the endless play of signifiers, and reference to other media necessarily replaces reference to the 'reality' murdered during the birth of the simulacra.

hehe how is ur English degree going?

[Deffeh]

Originally Posted by s|k

Deffeh, I thought of you when I read this:

http://www.slate.com/id/2125096/?nav=tap3



I don't hate you, but this author would. :eek:

Not only was your post out of place, but besides being 19, im not sure how the article relates to me even remotely.



I may not be doing an English degree in any shape or form, nod. Im either doing a politics, or an english/politics degree.

[JonnyBGood]

You may not be doing? Adopted a philosophy of rigid skepticism deffeh?

[Deffeh]

its too early for me to work out how exactly you're taking the piss out of me

[JonnyBGood]

You need a beer. Followed swiftly by another.

[Deffeh]

Fortunately for this week im the manager of an off license then. Leaving to open the shop in 10 minutes or something. Handling 7k cash, managing 80k stock for 4.85 an hour.

Oh big capatalist companies, how i love thee so.

[s|k]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Not only was your post out of place, but besides being 19, im not sure how the article relates to me even remotely.



I may not be doing an English degree in any shape or form, nod. Im either doing a politics, or an english/politics degree.

Nineteen . How remote is that?

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by s|k

Nineteen . How remote is that?

stop making posts like this please it makes me sad

[SYMM]

On an almost related note, a character in neighbours not long ago was talking about Natalie Imbruglia's music :|

[Sarina_Joy]

Entirely related SYMM. Similarly the use of Colin Firth to play Mark Darcy in Bridget Jones's diary, in wich Bridget Jones the character was obsessed with Colin Firth.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by s|k

Nineteen . How remote is that?

You appear to be missing the predicates which define why he dislikes "teenagers".

[Deffeh]

I get the fact that im a teenager, but after that, his point is somewhat lost on me.

[dda]

The key is that it is well known to the potential audiance. A recent hit movie, even if rather shit, can be referenced if it is widely enough known so that the audience gets it. Don't be such a teenager.

[Deffeh]

Can you give me an example of a recent film that has been referenced to in another film?

[Nodrog]

Originally Posted by Deffeh

Can you give me an example of a recent film that has been referenced to in another film?

Swingers had a few references to Reservoir Dogs.

The film makers don't attempt to hide their infatuation with Tarantino, and elements of his style have wormed their way into the production. Actor Vince Vaughn resembles the Pulp Fiction director, both in terms of physical appearance and acting ability. One of the characters has a Reservoir Dogs poster on his wall. An argument about whether Tarantino borrowed from Scorsese provokes the comment that "everybody steals from everybody". This is followed by a same-shot, same-angle, slo-mo recreation of the Reservoir Dogs opening with the characters of Swingers replacing Tarantino's unholy gang.

[Phang]

stargate sg-1 is full of film references.

DANIEL: Senator, we have reason to believe that the Goa'uld are about to launch an attack, in force, in ships.
KINSEY: Then I think they'll regret taking on the United States military.
DANIEL: Oh, you're right. We'll—We'll just upload a computer virus into the mothership.

[Kurashima]

Cheer Up Emo Kid, Have some Irn Bru

[wakey]

Originally Posted by SYMM

On an almost related note, a character in neighbours not long ago was talking about Natalie Imbruglia's music :|

Neighbours does it all the time with its old actors, one example I remember was around the time when Guy Pierce was the in thing in Hollywood and one of the charachters made a bitchy comment about his acting.

Anyway the references that work are normally either ones like seen in Neighbours and Stargate which form a basis of an In Joke or when they are referencing a peice of work that has some cultural importance to the auidence.

The injoke ones are always fun because it reward long time views and fans of the show for their devotion. They are things which an average casual user would miss and which you understand and it will make you chuckle.

The cultural importance type normally helps you connect to the film as it makes you identify with the situation more and connect you the the universe. Kevin Smiths films do this with things like Star Wars and the Brat Pack movies which are things which form part of the auidences growing up. So while those whom didnt live through the era of these movies they references may just come across as witty observations where as for those whom did find themselves taking more out of it as it reminds them somewhat of themselves.

The bad references are the ones that have clearly been placed in for no reason other than to reference another movie (Jay and Silent bobs apperance in Scream 3 for example) which come across cheap and tacky or when movies start getting tangled up in self referencing when it can all become one big in joke (Scream 3 again which came close to being another Scary Movie Sequel, or Jay and Silent Bob Strike back which let in jokes take over thus closing it off to those whom hadnt seen the other film)

Something I have noticed while thinking about this it does seem that tv shows will reference things more than movies. Most shows you can think of while make references to cultural important stuff that will connect to the auidence or in jokes. For example Buffy was littered with things like

Xander: Hey, junior Slayers, don't look so worried. I mean, sure, we don't know where Spike is or how to fight the First, or if and when the super-styled vampire is gonna attack us all. However, house — boarded up. Now all we gotta do is trap this Übervamp in the pantry, and it's game over.
Willow: Xander, newbies. Let's ease them into the whole "jokes in the face of death" thing.
Xander: Who's joking? That pantry thing could work. You're saying M. Night Shyamalan lied to us? .

in fact it not only refernence movies, but things like Tv and comics also. Stargate as mentioned is littered with in jokes about previous work as well as many Simpsons references along the way. X-files was another that references a wide vareity of other media

[All Systems Go]

I know it's not a film but pretty much every new episode of the Simposns references/rips-off some film or the other.