Breaking News - Russian special forces seize theater

[Dilly_D]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/824951.asp...21019B0-&cp1=1

bout time fs...damn Ruskies

[_RATM_]

told ya they`d rush in and kick ass

[Nixjim]

They really had no other choice, I'm glad to see it ended.

[Dilly_D]

Originally posted by Nixjim
They really had no other choice, I'm glad to see it ended.

sure they had a choice..they could have pulled outta Chechnya

[_RATM_]

Originally posted by Dilly_D


sure they had a choice..they could have pulled outta Chechnya

[Nixjim]

Originally posted by Dilly_D


sure they had a choice..they could have pulled outta Chechnya

By daylight today? Even if they wanted to they could not have withdrawn that quickly. Besides, caving in to such demands only makes it that much worse the next time. No, they had no choice.

[Woof]

This sound be made into a Counter-Strike level.

[General Geiger]

Although, as I have indicated in Insane Badger's thread, I am actually in support of the action the Chechen rebels have taken, I have to concede that on an immediate level the Russian's didn't have much choice. People were being shot; they had to rush in. I'm just glad they had that sleeping gas stuff, or the immediate death toll would have been much higher. I was watching a picture of the inside of the theatre on the news just a moment ago; there are bodies all over the place. It's horrific.

If many more people die because of this "sleeping gas", though, then that does raise a few interesting questions: can Russia sanction what in effect is a poison gas, even in this situation? In the aftermath of all this sh*t, there are endless rumours that the gas may had had a "detrimental effect on people's health". There are no words as to what this might be, but it must be quite severe, even life-threatening, or it wouldn't have been mentioned. I think I agree with its usage, however, in this instance: without it many hundreds might be dead now.

[WarFalcon]

Russia should have rounded up some chechen civilians at a rate of 5 to 1 and told the hostage takers that for every person they killed, 5 of their countrymen would die. Two can play at that game.

Originally posted by WarFalcon
Russia should have rounded up some chechen civilians at a rate of 5 to 1 and told the hostage takers that for every person they killed, 5 of their countrymen would die. Two can play at that game.

That strategy doesn't seem to have helped much so far... Do you know anything at all about the Chechnia conflict ?

they didnt have a choice, if they would have withdrown from chechnia, there would be the next hostagetaking within a few days with new demands
if they give up chechnia now, other states will try the same and russia would fall apart and stability in that region would be gone, that not a situation i would want to see
besides the fact that an independent chechnia would probably end up in a new taliban-afganistan-like country

[Bloomers III]

yes, but even bigger news. Edu scored an on goal. haw haw

[Dilly_D]

Originally posted by WarFalcon
Russia should have rounded up some chechen civilians at a rate of 5 to 1 and told the hostage takers that for every person they killed, 5 of their countrymen would die. Two can play at that game.

must be an American

[WarFalcon]

Originally posted by bink


That strategy doesn't seem to have helped much so far... Do you know anything at all about the Chechnia conflict ?

Russia has threatened counter executions of civilians in response to chechen threats to execute russian civilians? I was under the impression it was mearly an insurrection\civil war type situation

[WarFalcon]

Originally posted by Dilly_D


must be an American

Why, because America has never done anything remotely like what I suggested?

Originally posted by Azaghal

Russia has no reason at all to be in Chechnya in the first place. Russia is constantly whining about how bad the economy is, but on the other hand wasting their resources on a stupid war which proves nothing. Chechnya may have interresting resources, but Russia has no chance to develop them anyway if they occupy Chechnya. And Chechnya isn't very big either, if you compare it to say, Kazachstan, and surely not big compared to Russia itself.

No economic reason, no. But apparently after the russian army withdrew from Chechnia, it became a safe haven for violent crime. The Russians call it terrorism with profit as the main goal. Allegedly the Chechen economy became based entirely around ars and drug trade, as well as ransom money the kidnapping business, and from extortion. A series of bomb explosions in Moscow that killed over 300 civilians was blamed on Chechen criminals, apparently someone had refused to pay their extortion money. This is all the Russian version of events, so it is probably biased. In any case, Putin won the elections with his pledge to solve the Chechen problem brutally.

[WarFalcon]

Originally posted by Azaghal


Sounds like Nazi style tactics.

Great, then you can point to a situation that the Nazi's resolved in the mannor I suggested?

[Dilly_D]

Originally posted by WarFalcon

Why, because America has never done anything remotely like what I suggested?

no no...I was just refering to the 'we're bigger than you, so we're gonna kick your ass' tactics

i think there are pipeline in chechnia

I bet he'd change his tune if he was one of the civilians.

Originally posted by WarFalcon



Great, then you can point to a situation that the Nazi's resolved in the mannor I suggested?

Omg, how can you say this?

It was the main tactic the nazis used to deter Partizans. Just one example was the village Putten in the Netherlands, where every male citizen was taken hostage, to be executed unless some local resistance people turned themselves in. They didn't, and the nazis executed all the hostages.

An estimated one fifth of the population of Yugoslavia died this way, not to mention the scores of Russians.

Historically it is a tactic that doesnt really seem to be very effective.

[WarFalcon]

Originally posted by Dilly_D


no no...I was just refering to the 'we're bigger than you, so we're gonna kick your ass' tactics

you mean like the 'we're gonna kick your ass' tactics of storming the theater with sleeping gas and what not?


These people were willing to die themselves, but were they willing to kill those people not only at the expense of their own lives, but of the lives of 5x as many of their own people.

(note: I realize my suggestion will probably never be used by anyone, nor was it really ment to be. It was a troll, I'm sorry discuss on if you like, if not, forget it)

[WarFalcon]

Originally posted by bink


Omg, how can you say this?

It was the main tactic the nazis used to deter Partizans. Just one example was the village Putten in the Netherlands, where every male citizen was taken hostage, to be executed unless some local resistance people turned themselves in. They didn't, and the nazis executed all the hostages.

An estimated one fifth of the population of Yugoslavia died this way, not to mention the scores of Russians.

Historically it is a tactic that doesnt really seem to be very effective.

Great, I didn't know, which is why I asked for an example. Thank you for your prompt supply of one.

Originally posted by WarFalcon



Great, I didn't know, which is why I asked for an example. Thank you for your prompt supply of one.

You fool no one

[WarFalcon]

Originally posted by Vince McMahon


You fool no one

How fortuitous, I wasn't trying to.

Originally posted by Azaghal


So that justifies russia equiping brutal near-WWII-style tactics in Chechnya?

Please name which other states you are referring to who will immeadiately declare independant (i cant spell) and form the collapse of Russia. One would think most of such states already declared independant around 1990?

Besides Chechnya just wants Russia to fk off, that's the primary demand. A new hostage taking after Chechnya gots what it want, russia fking off, is not very likely...

i doesnt justify how this war is, but it does justify the actions that were taken in this specific case, simply because there was no other choice. if you start giving terrorists what they want they will always want more and other terrorist groups will try the same.
there are lots of other tribes or areas or whatever who might want their independence if chechnia suceeds.
personally i think some part-independence like in kosovo would be the best solution

[Starbucks]

Originally posted by Woof
This sound be made into a Counter-Strike level.

Most CS people will probably mess it up

What this needs is major-cooperation and a good knowledge of the area and a decent plan, everyone must know exactly where to go and by what time

they must do a clean sweep of the area asap and on finding the terrorists immeditaly contact for backup and start shootin, cos you have to catch them off guard

It works a lot in DF, which i play waaaayyy too much,

[Blastoderm]

Originally posted by Nixjim
I'm glad to see it ended.

I was enjoying by the minute.

Originally posted by WarFalcon



Why, because America has never done anything remotely like what I suggested?

oh yes they did. never forget y lai and the village they destroyed in order t save it

Originally posted by WarFalcon
Russia should have rounded up some chechen civilians at a rate of 5 to 1 and told the hostage takers that for every person they killed, 5 of their countrymen would die. Two can play at that game.

aha finally showing your true face and your nazi mentality.
thats the nazi way of thinking.that tactic was very popular in the eastern front (im sure you know all about that, you love thse stories dont you?? )

Originally posted by General Geiger
I'm just glad they had that sleeping gas stuff, or the immediate death toll would have been much higher. I was watching a picture of the inside of the theatre on the news just a moment ago; there are bodies all over the place. It's horrific.

how much higher did you expect it to be?? 168 killed and over 500 seriously wounded. now with 750 people in there, not much more damage was possible.the death toll is expected to rise anyway because most of those people are in a serious condition thanks to that "sleeping gas"!!!

[Radon]

If they would not have used a gas that strong, the whole building would have been blown up, as there were explosives everywhere in it.

The terrorists wouldnt have been asleep right away, and 1000 people would be gone. No offence but the whole rescue mission was pulled off as good as possible

[General Geiger]

Originally posted by m.ar.d
how much higher did you expect it to be?? 168 killed and over 500 seriously wounded. now with 750 people in there, not much more damage was possible.the death toll is expected to rise anyway because most of those people are in a serious condition thanks to that "sleeping gas"!!!

I concede that you are partially right. At the time I wrote that the full truth about that stuff hadn't been released, and I thought it must be some variant of chloroform, or something equally harmless. I assumed that the "90 dead" were from the gun battle in the main theatre. I would heavily revise that statement now, if I had the time.

However, on looking a bit closer, I'm not sure they had much other choice. It was a no-win situation. If they had gone in without the gas there would have been an intense gun battle, with heavy exchanges from either side, with many civilians shot in crossfire.Some of the terrorists would have blown themselves up, others would have detonated the various booby traps; without the nerve gas knocking them out they would have had time to wreak as much carnage as possible before they all died, and probably destroy the building in the process. In that situation, anything up to a thousand people might have died. By comparison, two hundred-odd fatalities (at a guess of the eventual death toll) is almost minor.

On an initial military level, they really didn't have much other choice. I'm going to post a thread about the gas thing sometime tonight. It raises a whole hornets nest of interesting/unpleasant questions.

There is no such thing as sleeping gas, it exists only in the movies. They probably used a nerve gas.

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by bink
There is no such thing as sleeping gas, it exists only in the movies. They probably used a nerve gas.

Well no.

A gas in the Soviet Arsenal which has been used since the 1980s is called Blue X, it was used in Afganistan quite a lot.

And I quote:


Designation:Blue-X
Common Name: Blue-X
Chemical Name: Unknown
Toxic by: Inhalation
Persistent: No
Odor: None
Asymptomatic Period: (10) Minutes
Early Symptoms [(4) Hours]: Unconciousness.
Advanced Symptoms [3 + (3) Hours]: Continued, with possible development of Central Nervous System--manifesting as slowed heart rate and shallow breathing, both of which worsen as the patient gets closer to death.
Treatment: Relieve symptoms.
HT: 1 Day
Notes: Physical Incapacitant. Blue-X has allegedly been developed and used by the Soviet Union in the 1980s. Vietnamese forces have also allegedly used it in their intervention in Cambodia. Blue-X works as a sort of general anaesthetic, causing complete unconciousness very rapidly and wearing off 2-8 hours later with limited aftereffects. Reports of combatants state that Blue-X was dispersed in aircraft and mortar shells. Beyond this, very little is known about the agent. Blue-X is probably currently stockpiled by the former Soviet Union and other CW-capable former Warsaw Pact forces. Its primary use could be in counter-insurgency roles and would allow the capture of prisoners for interrogation. In a superpower conflict, Blue-X could also be used to aid in the attack of conventional forces, or assist airborne insertions into the enemy rear by reducing the amount of concious defenders.


This is likely what the Russians used in the Theatre, and they likely allowed too high of a concentration to build up, which causes heart-attacks.

[Nixjim]

BX is indeed what the local news here is now claiming was used.
Had I been inside the theater, I would have prefered the gas to the bullets or explosives, at least with it I would have a chance of surviving.

Originally posted by Vermillion


Well no.

A gas in the Soviet Arsenal which has been used since the 1980s is called Blue X, it was used in Afganistan quite a lot.

And I quote:

(stuff)

wanna bet it's an anti cholinergic agent?

[Sandsnake]

Originally posted by bink
There is no such thing as sleeping gas, it exists only in the movies. They probably used a nerve gas.

far more people would be dead...also nerve agent doesn't incapacitate fast enough.

Right about the time their eyes started watering, their heads started aching, and all surface musculature under exposed skin started to twitch noticably, they'd have started killing hostages.

Contrary to popular belief, nerve agent is NOT fast...

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by General Geiger
On an initial military level, they really didn't have much other choice. I'm going to post a thread about the gas thing sometime tonight. It raises a whole hornets nest of interesting/unpleasant questions.

I have no objections to the Russians using gas per se, but it appears they may have made it a lot worse by not having enough medical personnel on hand ahead of time to quickly evacuate and treat the hostages, and for not adequately informing the attending physicians of exactly which gas was used, its known effects, treatments, etc.

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by bink

wanna bet it's an anti cholinergic agent?

Uh, well, that would be a bronchodilator and not at all the same effect; unless the terrorists were athsmatic or had COPD, in which case they would be more comfortable. I suspect this was not the term you were looking for.

So no. Blue-X is a chemical anesthetic gas, rapid acting on inhalation.

Originally posted by Vermillion


Uh, well, that would be a bronchodilator and not at all the same effect; unless the terrorists were athsmatic or had COPD, in which case they would be more comfortable. I suspect this was not the term you were looking for.

So no. Blue-X is a chemical anesthetic gas, rapid acting on inhalation.

Stick with your own field

Cholinergic would mean 'working on receptors of the acetyl choline type', the difference between a toxin and a medicine includes which receptors of its type it acts on (many types of cholinergic receptors), exactly what it does with these receptors, the dose etc etc.

and what makes you so sure they used BX?

http://www.pharmcentral.com/cholinergics.htm

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by bink

and what makes you so sure they used BX?

Now we are in my field. The Russians used Blue-X because it fits the description, symptoms and results of this chemical weapon to a T. We knew that even before it was confirmed by our sources.

We recently recieved a full brief on the weapon, its history, effects and uses.

I found this...

I dont know if it fits the symptoms to a tee, the symptoms werent described in much (relevant) detail in the media.

If BX is an acetyl choline esterase inhibitor like this suggests, then it would act too slowly, taking several minutes to incapacitate someone, causing muscle spasm etc.

What CNN says about the gas used, it acted immediately, and caused paralysis, drowsiness, vomiting... sounds like just the opposite to me...

There are six types of agents which are generally considered Warfare Agents:

1. Lung damaging (pulmonary agents) include the WW I Phosgene. The remainder of these agents are conventional warfare rather than chemical weapons. They include, Perflurorisobutylene (PFIB) a product of Teflon combustion; HC smoke (a smoke containing Zinc) and oxides of Nitrogen (from burning munitions).

2. Cyanide has an undeserved reputation as a good warfare agent, however, its high volatility means that effective concentrations are difficult to achieve on the battleground even though high concentrations cannot be maintained more than a few minutes in open air. However, at high concentrations, it does kill quickly and potential agents are Hydrocyanic Acid (AC) and Cyanogen Chloride (CK).

3. Vesicants include Mustard (Sulfur Mustard), Lewisite (L), Phosynoxine (CX). Vessicants are so named because of the blisters they cause on the skin. These agents also can cause damage to the eyes and airways by direct contact and have other affects as well.

4. Nerve agents inhibit the enzyme Acetylcholinestrase and effects of the result of excess Acetylcholine. Nerve agents are GA (Tabun), GB (Sarin), GD (Soman), GF and BX.

5. Incapacitating agents include BZ, a Glycolate, anticholinergic compound related to Atraphine, Scopolamine, and Hyoscyamine and Agent 15, an alleged incapacity agent used by Iraq, that is likely to be chemically identical to BZ or closely related to it.

6. Riot-control agents have been used on the battlefield, although they are not considered a major threat today. The National Guard may encounter or employ them during civilian disturbances. The major ones are CS, which is used by law enforcement in the military, and CN (Mace), which is sold in devices for self-protection.

Well well, it turns out the mystery gas was Halothane, a surgery anesthetic

[Ditcher]

Originally posted by bink
Well well, it turns out the mystery gas was Halothane, a surgery anesthetic

In Finland it was flashed as "nerve gas" for 2 or 3 days.

pld press and news agencies again etc.

This is no longer "breaking news".

The thread topic is a lie.

For Shame!

[Vermillion]

Originally posted by bink
Well well, it turns out the mystery gas was Halothane, a surgery anesthetic

Check again. Check the Globe and mail (canada) CNN, and the BBC: They are all claiming to 'Know' what the gas is and they all give different answers.

The CBC says:

"The doctors claim the gas is Fentanyl, a chemical in the same family as morphine and heroin. It can abruptly paralyze the respiratory system. "
http://cbc.ca/stories/2002/10/29/gas_moscow021029

The Globe and Mail says:

"They say the Russians may have been doing their own experiments, and decided it was worth the risk to test an aerosol version of Valium last Saturday morning, when it appeared the Chechen terrorists holding a Moscow theatre were about to start executing some of their hostages."




IE: Nobody knows for sure yet, the speculation is just getting more educated.