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8 Mar 2005, 16:59
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#1
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I am an idiot
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,145
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MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
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I have just read through TSM's apology thread and the Levi 501's - "A Midsummers Night Dream" to which the drama relates and really feel the actions of Marilyn Manson are absolutely appalling and simply unacceptable.
TSM's initial thread was harmless enough, it was not trolling, name calling or negative in any way. It was merely commenting on his GF's attraction to an actor in an advert.
So why did a moderator of long standing such as MM feel the need to be the first to reply with a little playground name calling towards the posters girlfriend? Now you may not consider this to be a direct personal attack on TSM but some would disagree.
In this instance TSM did disagree.
So from this point on a harmless post was turned into a series of insults between TSM and MM totally devoid of the initial subject.
What happened next I believe was the direct result of MM antagonising TSM. Dace jumped in with another insult directed at TSM's girlfriend and whether this was meant as a joke or not, I can imagine from TSM's point of view what had resulted so far from his innocent thread was an outright personal attack by some GD regulars.
MM followed up with further insult by insinuating TSM was a spastic for indulging in a little name calling himself.
We are told this behavious is not acceptable (The CHIKA file thread points this out] and yet in this instance the actions of two regulars with 17000 posts between them caused a relative novice poster to feel he had to fight back.
And what happens then? Well, after Dace takes the thread completely off topic and spams the thread with 'your girlfriend' jokes the rest of GD follows suit. This includes Mr upstanding GD ban stick commander Marilyn Manson. Is it really any wonder TSM lost his cool?
Why were those GD regulars who all closed rank to join in the 'fun' at what was already confirmed to be TSM's expense not given warnings to keep the thread on topic and stop insulting TSM?
Had it have been someone like CHIKA, to give a recent example, who came into a thread and totally trashed the topic to make his own jokes I can imagine the ranks would have closed in the opposite direction.
Then to make make matters worse for TSM, GD's very own little china doll, Madi, pops up to claim its rediculous to get violent over a series of 'you mama' jokes on the internet. For your information fluffy, I can imagine the jokes were not the real reason he lost his temper but the fact a whole fking forum getting on his case was for no bloody reason!
If we have rules that we must abide by, for gods sake apply them to everyone and not just a select few who arent part of the 'clique'.
After reading TSM's apology for his behaviour, which considering he was the victim is a VERY GOOD gesture, I feel the least those whose waded in on the ensuing assault should do likewise. Most of all Marilyn Manson.
I know I'm not really allowed to critises and that after I hit submit I will probably face the moderators wrath, no doubt involking Clause 1 with a 1 day or permanent ban to follow, but hey ho. Life goes on.
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8 Mar 2005, 17:03
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#2
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I play the double-bass.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,198
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
did you pm this MM?
__________________
The music called Jaazzz..
Charlie Mingus, such nimble fingers
Droppin the bass, all over the place
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8 Mar 2005, 17:03
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#3
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King of The Fat Boys
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 3,332
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Apologies are so cliche
So are requests for apologies btw!
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8 Mar 2005, 17:04
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#4
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Lonely analytic
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
To delete these looks quite stupid, mods, especially since he might have a point.
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For real
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8 Mar 2005, 17:07
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#5
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
if a mod deleted it and he reposted then quite regardless of whatever he is trying to say he is going behind the power of the mods.
also i was glad my "boo bloody hoo" was the first reply but now its not
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hi
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8 Mar 2005, 17:07
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#6
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
We (GD) don't like anyone who can't take a joke.
Whether it be Chika, TSM or anyone.
Although MM's first reply to the thread was perhaps a little overly insulting, the rest of the thread was pure comedy!
Dace may have started it, but it was also Tomkat, Phang, Symm, myself, Kura and in fact half of GD.
TSM overreacted, although that made the thread even funnier.
TSM has apologised and so has Chika - They both get respect from me for doing it.
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8 Mar 2005, 17:07
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#7
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Has Soup On His Head
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
ITT , Crashtester undoes all his good work of previous threads in gaining green blobs by talking absoloute bollocks.
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
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8 Mar 2005, 17:12
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#8
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I am an idiot
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,145
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
if a mod deleted it and he reposted then quite regardless of whatever he is trying to say he is going behind the power of the mods.
also i was glad my "boo bloody hoo" was the first reply but now its not
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Actually, I deleted it. I thought the original thread title was a little off and might have been considered insulting. Given the point of this post I changed it.
I thought your 'boo bloody hoo' response was pretty predictable. Boo bloody hoo your post is no longer first.
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8 Mar 2005, 17:13
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#9
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Bored
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Nottm ->Shef ->Croydon ->Manc ->Durham ->Sheffield
Posts: 6,506
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I have just
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sucked my own cock.
GO ME!!!
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8 Mar 2005, 17:13
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#10
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Lonely analytic
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,390
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Oh in that case you suck.
Sorry mods then BTW
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For real
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8 Mar 2005, 17:16
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#11
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I play the double-bass.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,198
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
incredible.
i universally can feel now that you english/british ppl have a certain different humour.
__________________
The music called Jaazzz..
Charlie Mingus, such nimble fingers
Droppin the bass, all over the place
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8 Mar 2005, 17:30
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#12
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
What pisses me off is that this has nothing to do with that thread, or TSM or GD, but it's quite patently about Crashtester taking every opportunity to bitch about me because of a personal dislike.
I don't pretend to be a saint as far as the rules go (I challenge any single person on here to say that they themselves are.) but clearly no-one except you really gives a shit about it to this extent.
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8 Mar 2005, 17:34
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#13
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Rawr rawr
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Upside down
Posts: 5,300
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin
incredible.
i universally can feel now that you english/british ppl have a certain different humour.
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That might explain why 90% of everything written on these forums goes way over my head making a loud *whoosh* sound.
That might also explain why nearly every thread goes off topic, as no one has a clue what the hell those tea sippers are on about.
This is probably also the other way around, so I guess that makes us even, èh?
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"Yay"
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8 Mar 2005, 17:34
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#14
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mmm lambs
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: London
Posts: 1,906
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
So why did a moderator of long standing such as MM feel the need to be the first to reply with a little playground name calling towards the posters girlfriend? Now you may not consider this to be a direct personal attack on TSM but some would disagree.
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But this is done to most people and they seem able to accept it. I would imagine most users here have had the piss taken out of them/their partner/family at some point and are able to laugh it off. Some of the occasions are even funny which is just an added bonus.
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I drink therefore I am
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8 Mar 2005, 17:44
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#15
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Godfather
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 5,185
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
The thread whilst delving into rule breakage early on or at least 'bending of said rules' turned from something quite innocent and 'childish' into one of the best ever gd threads. (of all time)
__________________
Forum Administrator
Mail : [email protected] // IRC : #forums
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It's not personal, it's just business.
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8 Mar 2005, 17:45
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#16
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
@ Lupin's comment.
What? the fact that I called someone's girlfriend a "mongchop" and stated that she had as much taste as Sue Pollard? (Which is, as most people will be aware, a relatively usual and harmless sort of comment for me to make not at all intended terribly seriously.)
Oh yeah, that's great. Until you take into account the fact that Crashtester has already called me "mentally unstable", apparently in all seriousness, twice (as far as I've counted.) in the space of about two days.
yay for hypocrisy.
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8 Mar 2005, 17:47
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#17
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
isnt this forum the last bastion of hypocrisy?
sorry MM i thought you knew
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lazy
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8 Mar 2005, 18:03
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#18
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I am an idiot
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,145
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Didn't he ask if MM was a faggot as his witty retort, asking for trouble. Furthermore it was funny and that is the main thing as with Just a Minute.
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He called him a faggot in response to MM's initial insult. TSM didnt set out to be insulted or to insult, he responded to a comment made by someone who should have known better.
So being funny allows us to operate outside the rules now does it?
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8 Mar 2005, 18:06
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#19
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
He called him a faggot in response to MM's initial insult. TSM didnt set out to be insulted or to insult, he responded to a comment made by someone who should have known better.
So being funny allows us to operate outside the rules now does it?
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it always has hasn't it ?
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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8 Mar 2005, 18:11
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#20
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I am an idiot
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,145
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
it always has hasn't it ?
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Only when 'some' people find it funny.
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8 Mar 2005, 18:12
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#21
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CrashTester again.
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8 Mar 2005, 18:15
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#22
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I am an idiot
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,145
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Oh yeah, that's great. Until you take into account the fact that Crashtester has already called me "mentally unstable", apparently in all seriousness, twice (as far as I've counted.) in the space of about two days.
yay for hypocrisy.
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I said it once in a thread within context of what was written to demonstrate a point.
I used the phrase again to title this thread but as you will be above I removed it straight away as I thought it a little harsh.
You were the one, however, who posted on this forum stating you were suicidal one day and euphoric the next. Quoting fact by your own admission can hardly be considered an insult can it?
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8 Mar 2005, 18:33
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#23
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Heh, Leeds !
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: In The Redfern
Posts: 3,790
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
and it wasn't that funny either.
~Vaio~
__________________
The George Harrison of BlueTuba
Yes, I know he is dead !
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8 Mar 2005, 18:33
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#24
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Heh, Leeds !
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: In The Redfern
Posts: 3,790
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CrashTester again.
~Vaio~
__________________
The George Harrison of BlueTuba
Yes, I know he is dead !
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8 Mar 2005, 18:52
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#25
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Manga Kitten is back!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cube 616
Posts: 1,073
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Thread was funny. Some people might have gone over the line, but there's nothing like a good PM to solve them grudges.
And why is CrashTester now the GD Vigilante?
__________________
Comming to London on Dec 20th
Knocking on your door for leftovers starting on Dec 21st
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8 Mar 2005, 18:54
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#26
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
he's filling the 'sunday niche'
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hi
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8 Mar 2005, 18:58
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#27
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Everyone's not treated the same. Jesus guys how many times does this have to be said
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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8 Mar 2005, 19:01
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#28
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Manga Kitten is back!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Cube 616
Posts: 1,073
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
The 'sunday niche' has nothing to do with this thread... 'sunday niche' would be all about getting the nastiest reply on the aforementioned thread just to spreak shock and horror thru GD.
__________________
Comming to London on Dec 20th
Knocking on your door for leftovers starting on Dec 21st
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8 Mar 2005, 19:04
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#29
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Stop sticking up for your fellow shitty posters.
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8 Mar 2005, 19:06
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
He called him a faggot in response to MM's initial insult. TSM didnt set out to be insulted or to insult, he responded to a comment made by someone who should have known better.
So being funny allows us to operate outside the rules now does it?
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Pretty much. MM is one of the best posters here whereas you and TSM are awful. Meritocracy is the implicit rule governing most non-shitty internet sites.
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8 Mar 2005, 19:14
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#31
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Old Man O Deh *****s
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: In spelelpee land
Posts: 3,516
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
What pisses me off is that this has nothing to do with that thread, or TSM or GD, but it's quite patently about Crashtester taking every opportunity to bitch about me because of a personal dislike.
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Yeah, just because he doesn't like you, isn't a reason to bitch all over teh forums.
I mean, you don't find me calling MM a pillow biting marmite muncher all over the forums, I say it to people in other places, where he can't see.*
* Ooops...
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Dead_Meat
You dont need to keep beating a dog to get it to stop shitting on the carpet
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8 Mar 2005, 19:15
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#32
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Pretty much. MM is one of the best posters here whereas you and TSM are awful. Meritocracy is the implicit rule governing most non-shitty internet sites.
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quite.
__________________
hi
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8 Mar 2005, 19:15
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#33
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
I said it once in a thread within context of what was written to demonstrate a point.
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So are you saying that I am mentally incapable of moderating this forum as a direct result of some form of incapacity, or are you, as suspect, merely throwing it around as a piss-poor insult?
Starting threads titled with such phrases as "GD's resident mentally unstable moderator" has nothing to do with an argument, and reveals what this is all about - trolling about with personal insults semi-disguised as a proper argument.
I mean, Jesus Christ, you couldn't even resist having a go at Madi, of all people, by calling her "GD's very own little china doll".
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8 Mar 2005, 19:31
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#34
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Banned
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 63
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
itt crashtester throws his rattle out of the pram , maiming innocent bystanders with it
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8 Mar 2005, 20:18
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
you people are all going DOWN
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8 Mar 2005, 20:24
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#36
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home wrecker
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The other side of the galaxy ;)
Posts: 1,041
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
can we all take a deep breath and like.... move on and shit?
or do we have to have a most mortem about everything atm?
this whole "thing" would be best left alone, and let normal posting ensue. After all everyone in here changes opinions on who likes who almost as often as folks change socks*
*Nodrog not withstanding.... he's the school yard smelly kid
__________________
May the Farce be with you...
#pr0nstars - a pimp is for life, not just for christmas
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8 Mar 2005, 20:25
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#37
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Nod's milkshake brings all the boys to the yard.
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8 Mar 2005, 20:35
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#38
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Has Soup On His Head
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 10,095
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Nods bleeding brings all the boys to the yard for another punch.
__________________
And the Banker, inspired with a courage so new
It was matter for general remark,
Rushed madly ahead and was lost to their view
In his zeal to discover the Snark
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8 Mar 2005, 20:47
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#39
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Synaptidian
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 256
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
God these days everytime someone gets banned/insulted etc, theres allways someone that makes a thread deffending them.
The thread was hillarious, TSM's insults were stupid enough to make me wonder if he was doing it for a laugh, and the comments by dace, stew, mm, etc made me lol.
Frankly, TSM deserved to be torn apart in THAT thread, so stop whining about how the GD population "Pick on people", its an internet forum, we dont have to be nice
__________________
#eXcessum forever \o/
<vampy> Cheek is 1337
<Zeus> Cheek is 1337 <-- maybe?
<idimmu> Cheek is 1337
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9 Mar 2005, 00:31
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#40
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
There are some real faggots on this forum.
__________________
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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9 Mar 2005, 00:35
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#41
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nondescript human
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,079
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTester
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I have just read through TSM's apology thread and the Levi 501's - "A Midsummers Night Dream" to which the drama relates and really feel the actions of Marilyn Manson are absolutely appalling and simply unacceptable.
TSM's initial thread was harmless enough, it was not trolling, name calling or negative in any way. It was merely commenting on his GF's attraction to an actor in an advert.
So why did a moderator of long standing such as MM feel the need to be the first to reply with a little playground name calling towards the posters girlfriend? Now you may not consider this to be a direct personal attack on TSM but some would disagree.
In this instance TSM did disagree.
So from this point on a harmless post was turned into a series of insults between TSM and MM totally devoid of the initial subject.
What happened next I believe was the direct result of MM antagonising TSM. Dace jumped in with another insult directed at TSM's girlfriend and whether this was meant as a joke or not, I can imagine from TSM's point of view what had resulted so far from his innocent thread was an outright personal attack by some GD regulars.
MM followed up with further insult by insinuating TSM was a spastic for indulging in a little name calling himself.
We are told this behavious is not acceptable (The CHIKA file thread points this out] and yet in this instance the actions of two regulars with 17000 posts between them caused a relative novice poster to feel he had to fight back.
And what happens then? Well, after Dace takes the thread completely off topic and spams the thread with 'your girlfriend' jokes the rest of GD follows suit. This includes Mr upstanding GD ban stick commander Marilyn Manson. Is it really any wonder TSM lost his cool?
Why were those GD regulars who all closed rank to join in the 'fun' at what was already confirmed to be TSM's expense not given warnings to keep the thread on topic and stop insulting TSM?
Had it have been someone like CHIKA, to give a recent example, who came into a thread and totally trashed the topic to make his own jokes I can imagine the ranks would have closed in the opposite direction.
Then to make make matters worse for TSM, GD's very own little china doll, Madi, pops up to claim its rediculous to get violent over a series of 'you mama' jokes on the internet. For your information fluffy, I can imagine the jokes were not the real reason he lost his temper but the fact a whole fking forum getting on his case was for no bloody reason!
If we have rules that we must abide by, for gods sake apply them to everyone and not just a select few who arent part of the 'clique'.
After reading TSM's apology for his behaviour, which considering he was the victim is a VERY GOOD gesture, I feel the least those whose waded in on the ensuing assault should do likewise. Most of all Marilyn Manson.
I know I'm not really allowed to critises and that after I hit submit I will probably face the moderators wrath, no doubt involking Clause 1 with a 1 day or permanent ban to follow, but hey ho. Life goes on.
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that's a lot of words.
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9 Mar 2005, 01:33
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#42
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Black Power MotherF*ckas!
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: JAPAN
Posts: 1,812
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
I think that everyone should be able to take a joke. In the same breath, if you can deliver a joke, I think you should also be able to accept one. maybe this thread is pointed a little to directly at MM, as the initial arguement is that a "group" of people trolled the thread.
Using me as an example in the title post in this thread, holds no water, for the simple fact that I am new. I have to agree that the older posters can do more things than the new ones can. But I think that it common throughout the world, in any organization. At work, I can be late a few times and noone cares. We have a new guy, and he tried to be like me, and he got bitched out.
__________________
Ascendancy
When Doves Cry
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9 Mar 2005, 02:12
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#43
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Dirte
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5,573
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Why bother? I mean, this is a group of people that has, more or less, stuck together for years. I don't know why I bother to hang around here, but I do, for good and bad. If you can't stand the feeling of the place, why stay? I mean, the insults in that thread was no worse then other threads, in fact, they were quite harmless.
And who has ever thought, after reading this forum for more then ten minutes, that anybody cares about the rules? Of course, some of them are enforced, but far from all.
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9 Mar 2005, 03:18
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#44
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Freedom Fanatic
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Doing evil deeds in the name of freedom
Posts: 680
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
It's the internet. Kittens are hunted for sport here. Next case please.
__________________
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.
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9 Mar 2005, 03:35
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#45
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Miles Teg
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dom City
Posts: 5,192
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
MM/MrL and the lot have been insanely shit for quite a few months now, with sometimes a bright post
__________________
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat
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9 Mar 2005, 03:53
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#46
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,635
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
The mods generally have a inflated sense of self-importance, and thus like asserting their awfulness around the forums. The 'clique' generally rules supreme on these forums.
This does not apply to the old school mods, or P&IT mods, who generally do a very good job.
Queball mentioned, or insinuated, a while back W left because of the mods behaviour. The mods are suppose to prevent the forums going shit, which they generally do. However, on occasion, they direct the forums in to a new official-mod-approved kind of shitdom.
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9 Mar 2005, 03:55
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#47
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
There's one mod on the forums who has been moderating for less than 18 months and that's lokken on AD. Who exactly isn't "old school"?
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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9 Mar 2005, 03:59
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#48
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
There's one mod on the forums who has been moderating for less than 18 months and that's lokken on AD. Who exactly isn't "old school"?
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ROCKER'S FOREVER!!!
__________________
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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9 Mar 2005, 04:05
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#49
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,635
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
There's one mod on the forums who has been moderating for less than 18 months and that's lokken on AD. Who exactly isn't "old school"?
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DM, JJ.
Oh and you're not in my axis-of-evil incase you were wondering.
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9 Mar 2005, 04:09
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#50
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: MM and GD should be ashamed of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
DM, JJ.
Oh and you're not in my axis-of-evil incase you were wondering.
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can we get a diagram showing those who are members of the axis-of-evil and another for those who are only on the axis-of-misbehaviour but who have the potential to progress plsta
__________________
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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