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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 21:47   #1
Kurashima
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Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/4002227.stm


Its odd , but every time i see them do something like this, i have to ask "How long will it be before Israel annihilates an arabic neighbour".

They really are a law unto themselves now, and with the US refusing to condemn them for anything they do, ESPECIALLY anything to do with Human Rights (and its well documented that MOSSAD interrogations make Guantanamo Bay look like Butlins) , its just a matter of time before they cross the line completely.
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 21:49   #2
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

So what's the solution?
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 21:53   #3
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
So what's the solution?
For America to stand up and say "****ing behave before you start a war" instead of backing everything they do. Thatd be a good start.

I realise thats an absoloute pipe dream, but until im God, its a good substitute.
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 22:39   #4
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

what's wrong with starting wars?
</dubia>
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 22:46   #5
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
make Guantanamo Bay look like Butlins
doesn't take much though does it
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 22:48   #6
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
doesn't take much though does it
I take it youve had the pleasure of "Wonderwest World" then.
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 23:07   #7
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
For America to stand up and say "****ing behave before you start a war" instead of backing everything they do. Thatd be a good start.

I realise thats an absoloute pipe dream, but until im God, its a good substitute.
Why should we be the ones to do it? Why doesn't Europe as whole do something about it?
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 23:11   #8
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
Why should we be the ones to do it? Why doesn't Europe as whole do something about it?
are you simple?

America veto every anti-Israel resolution going. What can we do? We can't afford to piss you guys off and thanks to you guys, Israel are about as militarily strong as us. wtg
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 23:16   #9
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
are you simple?

America veto every anti-Israel resolution going. What can we do? We can't afford to piss you guys off and thanks to you guys, Israel are about as militarily strong as us. wtg
extremely simple....

I suppose its a no win situation then... Seriously in my judgement there is an equal amount of blame to go around to Isreal and the rest of the Arab states. I guess since Israel is our ally they dont have to be "right" in the eyes of Europe to get a free pass from us for most things.
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 23:20   #10
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
extremely simple....

I suppose its a no win situation then... Seriously in my judgement there is an equal amount of blame to go around to Isreal and the rest of the Arab states. I guess since Israel is our ally they dont have to be "right" in the eyes of Europe to get a free pass from us for most things.
I still fail to see what the US Gains from Israel being an Ally. If anything, its been a contributing factor to the 9/11 attacks, and theres no economic gain, its purely military by having a country there prepared to share intelligence on the region for Dubbya's future wars.

The fact the entire world has previous condemned Israels actions, but the US refuses to do so allows them to continue. If even one strongly worded reply went out from Colin Powell saying "Oooh , you know, thats just not right, you shouldnt do that" , Israel would act, fast!
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Unread 11 Nov 2004, 23:51   #11
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
Why should we be the ones to do it? Why doesn't Europe as whole do something about it?
Because America acts as Israels personal bank, providing them with funds, technology and military hardware. It also lends its political and economic weight to an otherwise medicore nation for little to no return apart from the appeasment of parts of the american voting public and the odd terrorist strike.

That makes you at least partly responsible for what they do with power you give them, it also gives you incredible leverage to restrain their behaviour without taking any of the dastic steps that other nations or groups would have to, IE economic sanctions, trade embargoes, political isolation or worse supporting and assisting some of her neighbours.


Mild censure or rebuke from a close friend is likely to be more effective than a kick in the balls from some estranged relatives.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 00:02   #12
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Exclamation Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
are you simple?

America veto every anti-Israel resolution going.
And we all know how effective resolutions are!
Quote:
What can we do? We can't afford to piss you guys off and thanks to you guys, Israel are about as militarily strong as us. wtg
Hardly. Israel's armed forces ranked 32nd worldwide, in terms of number of personel (as of 1999, the latest year I could find). The armed forces of France, Germany and Italy are each three times larger than Israel's. Turkey's are six times larger. Any of the larger EU members should be able to defeat Israel single-handed (although against anyone but the UK my money would still be on Israel as the underdog). Against the EU as a whole, Israel would have no chance.

Israel is actually a small country. Their population is only about 6M. Their armed forces, although technically sophisticated, are fairly small by world standards. Yes, they do well against arab armies, but then again, who doesn't?

As to pissing us off, much of Europe has already done that. It's not the end of the world.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 00:16   #13
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

the Jews own America innit
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 00:34   #14
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

the us congress has also signed a global anti-semitism review act requiring the state department to specifically monitor anti-semitism world wide
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 00:39   #15
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I still fail to see what the US Gains from Israel being an Ally.
Votes in US elections from the bible-belt of america
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 00:58   #16
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
I still fail to see what the US Gains from Israel being an Ally
They are the only reliable ally in the Gulf (probably the most important region in the world, resource wise). Any of the other pro-US regimes in the area could conceivably change their political stance overnight, or have their governments replaced by Islamic or other anti-Western interests. Pretty simple really.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 01:09   #17
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
the Jews own America innit
Thats why most of them voted for Kerry....

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/4337.htm
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 01:38   #18
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Event_Horizon
Thats why most of them voted for Kerry....

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/4337.htm
They voted for the party theyve traditionally voted for. However your article states that the Jewish vote for Bush was up to 32% this time, from 18% last time, indicating a massive swing in Jewish Pro-Bush support. If that trend continues at the rate its moved according to those statistics , the Republicans will have in excess of 40% of all Jewish votes at the next election.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 01:40   #19
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Just after the election the Israeli spokersperson said something along the lines of "Senator Kerry has shown himself to be a friend of Israel by his actions in congress - we are sure that would have continued if he was President."

So I doubt the Jews are worried that the Democrats are going to sell them out to the Arabs.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 02:15   #20
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

I just checked, this guy was jailed for treason and released after being told not to talk to the press. If he has been talking to the press then he kinda sorta broke the conditions for his release. So, what exactly has Israel done wrong this time ?

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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 02:27   #21
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
They voted for the party theyve traditionally voted for. However your article states that the Jewish vote for Bush was up to 32% this time, from 18% last time, indicating a massive swing in Jewish Pro-Bush support. If that trend continues at the rate its moved according to those statistics , the Republicans will have in excess of 40% of all Jewish votes at the next election.
I completely agree, but it still does not give evidence for jewish control of the US, if anything, the current administration has very little jewish support in regards to the last election and to a lesser degree this one.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 02:28   #22
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Can I just add that isn't anyone more concerned about Israel than America? They act in secrecy, they have nuclear arms, they take unilateral action as often as I take a piss, they deliberately try and do things in covert and trial people in secret.

My only guess is that Vanunu doesn't know he knows something about Israel's immediate plans that may or may not involve Nuclear weapons with regards to the world.

Expect WWIII soon.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 02:55   #23
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Exclamation Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Just after the election the Israeli spokersperson said something along the lines of "Senator Kerry has shown himself to be a friend of Israel by his actions in congress - we are sure that would have continued if he was President."
Well the Israeli government is smart enough not to burn any bridges.
Quote:
So I doubt the Jews are worried that the Democrats are going to sell them out to the Arabs.
Depends if you ask the Jews in America or the Jews who might actually be at risk of getting sold out. Polls in Israel showed a pretty strong preference for Bush (2 to 1, iirc).
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 02:55   #24
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
this guy was jailed for treason and released after being told not to talk to the press. If he has been talking to the press then he kinda sorta broke the conditions for his release. So, what exactly has Israel done wrong this time ?
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 05:32   #25
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Just after the election the Israeli spokersperson said something along the lines of "Senator Kerry has shown himself to be a friend of Israel by his actions in congress - we are sure that would have continued if he was President."

So I doubt the Jews are worried that the Democrats are going to sell them out to the Arabs.

It's not the Jews who should worry, it's us!
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 08:06   #26
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
It's not the Jews who should worry, it's us!


it's funny 'cause it's true
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 08:29   #27
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Israel's armed forces ranked 32nd worldwide, in terms of number of personel (as of 1999, the latest year I could find).
Is that off of a website? I'd be interested in a link if it is. :)
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 08:32   #28
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
I just checked, this guy was jailed for treason and released after being told not to talk to the press. If he has been talking to the press then he kinda sorta broke the conditions for his release. So, what exactly has Israel done wrong this time ?
Just because something is legal does not make it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacticus
Depends if you ask the Jews in America or the Jews who might actually be at risk of getting sold out. Polls in Israel showed a pretty strong preference for Bush (2 to 1, iirc).
Oh please. Do you really think there was any danger of a Kerry presidency selling out Israel? (What would congress be doing a the time? Sleeping?) Sure, Bush is more hawkish so he'll have more support - but that does not mean his opponent was necessarily the complete opposite?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunday8pm
Can I just add that isn't anyone more concerned about Israel than America? They act in secrecy, they have nuclear arms, they take unilateral action as often as I take a piss, they deliberately try and do things in covert and trial people in secret.

My only guess is that Vanunu doesn't know he knows something about Israel's immediate plans that may or may not involve Nuclear weapons with regards to the world.

Expect WWIII soon.


Not everything is the conspiracy you make out dearest. Any government is bitter towards perceived traitors (look at the British attempts to get David Shayler) and the Israelis are more bitter than most.

As for worried about Israel, no - not particular. If I lived in the occupied territories I might be worried on a day-to-day basis, but as a citizen of the world I have very little to fear.

btw : Even if Israel did something crazy like an unprovoked nuclear attack on Syria, how would that be a world war exactly? Europe, China, India don't give enough of a shit to do anything, and presuming a US vs the Arabs scenario, I don't see how that would be a world war.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 08:59   #29
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Oh please. Do you really think there was any danger of a Kerry presidency selling out Israel? (What would congress be doing a the time? Sleeping?) Sure, Bush is more hawkish so he'll have more support - but that does not mean his opponent was necessarily the complete opposite?
Remember what happened the last time the democrats got into power though? Israel was sold out and the streets of Jerusalem ran red with Jewish blood because they could no longer afford the guns they desperately need to fend off the hordes of nihilistic Islamic fundamentalists! ****ing democrats
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 10:09   #30
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Just because something is legal does not make it right.
Oh please, you would seriously advocate someone committing treason ?

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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 10:13   #31
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Oh please, you would seriously advocate someone committing treason ?

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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 12:57   #32
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

I must be getting senile but you two are surely not suggesting there is nothing wrong with someone putting the lives of their friends, family and countrymen to risk by shooting their mouths off on matters of a nation's security ?

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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 13:02   #33
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

btw, the israelis do have the guts and ruthlessness to pull these things off, which is for their own nation a good thing

i just hope those jews get gassed soon tho
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 13:05   #34
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Obviously it depends on the context. For example the attempts on Hitler's (o shit i just invoked godwins ) life by Germans could be classified as treason but I don't think anyone objects to them that strenously. If the state is not worthy of the citizenry then the citizenry has no duty to uphold it's laws.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 18:24   #35
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Exclamation Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apothos
Is that off of a website? I'd be interested in a link if it is.
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/wme...rmedForces.pdf Enjoy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Oh please. Do you really think there was any danger of a Kerry presidency selling out Israel?
I don't; but then I can't speak for the Israelis or why they preferred Bush.

The fact that American Jews supported Kerry 2:1 and Israelis supported Bush 2:1 would seem to indicate there's no worldwide Jewish concensus on at least some issues, which can only complicate their efforts to Control the World[tm].
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 19:33   #36
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
I just checked, this guy was jailed for treason and released after being told not to talk to the press. If he has been talking to the press then he kinda sorta broke the conditions for his release. So, what exactly has Israel done wrong this time ?

~Vaio~
Actually , that wasnt a specific term of his release. He served his entire sentence (unsurprisingly) and was then released and now lives in a Monastery. Journalists have tried talking to him, but all hes done is go over old ground. Nothing he knows is new, nothing he says is treasonous, and TBH , if the Rogue State of Carlisle was developing a thermo nuclear black pudding bomb, and citizen Vaio committed treason by telling the world about it, id be ****ing thankful to citizen Vaio.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 19:37   #37
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

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Originally Posted by Kurashima
and TBH , if the Rogue State of Carlisle was developing a thermo nuclear black pudding bomb, and citizen Vaio committed treason by telling the world about it, id be ****ing thankful to citizen Vaio.
If I did that I would never get a decent pint of guinness in this here town again and probably banished to Cleator Moor.

~Vaio~
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 21:14   #38
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

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Originally Posted by Vaio
Oh please, you would seriously advocate someone committing treason ?
Yes. Some of histories greats have been guilty of treason and in some cases to not commit treason is to be guilty of far larger immorality.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 21:22   #39
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Actually , that wasnt a specific term of his release. He served his entire sentence (unsurprisingly) and was then released and now lives in a Monastery. Journalists have tried talking to him, but all hes done is go over old ground.
I'm pretty sure that not talking to foreign journalists was a condition of release...
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 21:51   #40
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Hardly. Israel's armed forces ranked 32nd worldwide, in terms of number of personel (as of 1999, the latest year I could find). The armed forces of France, Germany and Italy are each three times larger than Israel's. Turkey's are six times larger. Any of the larger EU members should be able to defeat Israel single-handed (although against anyone but the UK my money would still be on Israel as the underdog). Against the EU as a whole, Israel would have no chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC article
observers declared the country the world's sixth-largest nuclear power.
That's enough to scare off any sane country.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 22:42   #41
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
I'm pretty sure that not talking to foreign journalists was a condition of release...
Please do feel free to provide a copy of the terms and conditions of his release. Im sure ive seen them, but cant recall where they are.
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 22:43   #42
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
I'm pretty sure that not talking to foreign journalists was a condition of release...
And besides , if youre released having done your entire sentence, how can they impose any specific conditions on you ... oh, wait, this IS Israel were talking about.

I can even accept the foreign travel ban, but "You talk only to who we say you can talk to" sounds distinctly like a police state to me.

But that cant be the case with nice fluffy, western friendly Israel, right?
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 23:17   #43
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Please do feel free to provide a copy of the terms and conditions of his release. Im sure ive seen them, but cant recall where they are.
"Strict conditions were imposed on him after release, including a ban on giving interviews to foreign media." From the BBC article...


Quote:
And besides , if youre released having done your entire sentence, how can they impose any specific conditions on you ... oh, wait, this IS Israel were talking about.
The concept of parole?
Padeophiles are often prevented from going close to schools/playgrounds etc. Is this so different?
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Unread 12 Nov 2004, 23:44   #44
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
"Strict conditions were imposed on him after release, including a ban on giving interviews to foreign media." From the BBC article...



The concept of parole?
Padeophiles are often prevented from going close to schools/playgrounds etc. Is this so different?
Parole is when an individual is released from prison ahead of the end of their sentence. Hence the outcry in the papers last week when a convicted sex offender, having served his sentence and refused any therapy or treatment, was released with no conditions on him as legally he was a free man. Im sure youre right and he was told he couldnt go near playgrounds, but theres a slight difference.
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Unread 13 Nov 2004, 00:33   #45
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

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Originally Posted by Tactitus
Yes, they do well against arab armies, but then again, who doesn't?

the french.
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Unread 13 Nov 2004, 00:47   #46
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
"Strict conditions were imposed on him after release, including a ban on giving interviews to foreign media." From the BBC article...



The concept of parole?
Padeophiles are often prevented from going close to schools/playgrounds etc. Is this so different?

I thought he was released after serving his sentence, not paroled?
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Unread 13 Nov 2004, 00:58   #47
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Please do feel free to provide a copy of the terms and conditions of his release. Im sure ive seen them, but cant recall where they are.
In your bbc article:
Quote:
VANUNU CURBS
No passport
May not leave Israel for a year
Contact with foreigners only by permission
Barred from foreign embassies
Media interviews not permitted
Banned from discussing nuclear secrets
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Unread 13 Nov 2004, 03:47   #48
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

zionism
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Unread 13 Nov 2004, 04:01   #49
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYMM
Padeophiles are often prevented from going close to schools/playgrounds etc. Is this so different?
Child molestors have committed a very terrible crime and needed to be punished. I'd view this gentleman as something of a hero.

That's the difference.
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Unread 13 Nov 2004, 11:26   #50
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Re: Them Thar Sneaky Israeli's again

paging dace to the hero worshiper

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