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Unread 2 May 2005, 17:23   #51
Cannon_Fodder
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Personally, I have a hard time stating that Hirohima and Nagasaki were morally justified.

There was a perfectly understandable and politically (And morally.) well-calculated reason for them, even if you can't personally support the conclusion.

I know you'll call me a cheese monkey or something in response to this, but isnt that contradicting yourself?
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Unread 2 May 2005, 17:26   #52
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Exclamation Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
I know you'll call me a cheese monkey or something in response to this, but isnt that contradicting yourself?
I said the motives and the moral argument were understanable, not utterly justified/the only legitimate view.
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Unread 2 May 2005, 20:34   #53
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Re: Enola Gay

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Originally Posted by JammyJim
Burning down cities : If you hadnt noticed Germany had blitzkrieged through most of europe at this time. We didnt burn the cities because we wanted to. most of this was done during intense fighting. We did bomb dresden at a time when it probably didnt make a lot of difference but during War, ethical considerations do not amount to a hill of beans if they step in the way of victory.
I never judged the English for burning down german cities. i just wanted to make clear that its very hypocrit to attack the americans for dropping the bomb on japan without taking in account the english bombings in germany.
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And yes if it hadnt been for America the world would probably be quite different. However your 'if it wasnt for us
I'm dutch. who is us?
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you wouldntve won' type thing. You do fail to take into account that Britain had bene fighting the Germans for several years before America finally stepped in and helped out (bar the lend-lease or as its otherwise known "exploit the ailing Allies by selling them crappy guns and tanks for their gold reserves")
yes the brits have fought germany a long time before america stepped in. and they managed to keep germany off their islands, however they would have never managed to defeat germany without american and canadian help.
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Unread 2 May 2005, 22:45   #54
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Re: Enola Gay

Reresedn

It was an attack made to support the Red army approaching from the east, by taking out switching points on the rail network to prevent reinforcements being sent to the eastern front *and by flushing refugees out of the city to clog the roads*. Im not sure where you get the machine gunning of civilians from though, the refugees in question were mostly in the suburbs of Dresden (200k of them apparently) whilst the fire bombing was mainly centred on 15 square miles comprising the centre of the city..

Total casualities from the attack vary from as low as 25k to 50k, most historians place the figure at being closer to the 25k mark.


*These are you military advantages btw, in case you can't discern that for yourself
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Unread 2 May 2005, 23:50   #55
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Personally, I have a hard time stating that Hirohima and Nagasaki were morally justified. The problem is though, that people tend to lose track of the circumstances surrounding the bombings.

...
In support.

I don't think that people nowadays, no, i patronise, i don't think it was ever easy for outsiders to understand the japan that went into the war.

19th century japan was beyond conception.

early 20th century japan, the japan of the war, was beyond belief.

you can't balance numbers when a whole nation was willing to committ suicide. you can't even imagine how a whole nation gets itself into a place where it would committ suicide rather than surrender.

I make no judgement on either side. i am not saying what japan was 'was wrong' or that it was right. it was one extreme of human reason and one extreme of human living.

ragarding that idea, that truth, i do believe, there was no other option.
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Unread 2 May 2005, 23:53   #56
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
Reresedn

It was an attack made to support the Red army approaching from the east, by taking out switching points on the rail network to prevent reinforcements being sent to the eastern front *and by flushing refugees out of the city to clog the roads*. Im not sure where you get the machine gunning of civilians from though, the refugees in question were mostly in the suburbs of Dresden (200k of them apparently) whilst the fire bombing was mainly centred on 15 square miles comprising the centre of the city..

Total casualities from the attack vary from as low as 25k to 50k, most historians place the figure at being closer to the 25k mark.


*These are you military advantages btw, in case you can't discern that for yourself
yes, switching points of the rail network, in the city center, a target that never had been attacked before then and to help the russians, who never even reached dresden before the capitulation. and to do that, ofc you had to burn down the entire city center. yes, that makes sense.
oh and 3 hors later, just when the rescue attempts really started, the 2nd wave started bombing the outer areas to disturb them.
ofc, to destroy a railway station thats all ok, especially if its so damn imporatant that there wasnt even any flak in the city.
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Unread 2 May 2005, 23:57   #57
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
yes, switching points of the rail network, in the city center, a target that never had been attacked before then and to help the russians, who never even reached dresden before the capitulation. and to do that, ofc you had to burn down the entire city center. yes, that makes sense.
oh and 3 hors later, just when the rescue attempts really started, the 2nd wave started bombing the outer areas to disturb them.
ofc, to destroy a railway station thats all ok, especially if its so damn imporatant that there wasnt even any flak in the city.
both sides can parade innocent corpses.

given you are a product of survivors.

why?

what do you hope to achieve?
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:13   #58
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
both sides can parade innocent corpses.

given you are a product of survivors.

why?

what do you hope to achieve?
its all history, they are long dead, and i didn't even have any relatives or whatever in the area or am in any other way personally effected. what made me post here at all is that you people seem to think that what your country did in ww2 was all great and glorious and that there weren't any downsudes at all when in this case there clearly were.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:15   #59
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
what made me post here at all is that you people seem to think that what your country did in ww2 was all great and glorious and that there weren't any downsudes at all when in this case there clearly were.
You're really really really really really stupid if you think that to be true.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:17   #60
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
You're really really really really really stupid if you think that to be true.
is that so? read the thread or other like it before on the topic.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:20   #61
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
is that so? read the thread or other like it before on the topic.
There's a difference between saying that you feel that a given event was justified (for whatever reason) and saying that it would still have happened in an ideal world, you know.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:21   #62
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Re: Enola Gay

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Originally Posted by wu_trax
is that so? read the thread or other like it before on the topic.
Maybe you've got "a large section of the British population" confused with "people who post frequently on GD".

It's an easy mistake to make, I personally often find myself bewildered when people tell me there's a difference between the group "greater spotted iguanas during the latter triassic period" and the group "people who post frequently on GD".
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:21   #63
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Re: Enola Gay

what the **** is all this crap about canadian help?
Canada started helping us as an obligation to the empire when war was declared

if the 'winnar is us' should be attributed to anyone its Britain/America/Russia

not America/Canada.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:23   #64
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Re: Enola Gay

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Originally Posted by JammyJim
what the **** is all this crap about canadian help?
Canada started helping us as an obligation to the empire when war was declared

if the 'winnar is us' should be attributed to anyone its Britain/America/Russia

not America/Canada.

Because your amazing efforts to keep the production lines open during World War Two were of such importance to the eventual outcome of that conflict, weren't they JJ?
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:25   #65
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Re: Enola Gay

damn straight.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:30   #66
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
yes, switching points of the rail network, in the city center, a target that never had been attacked before then and to help the russians, who never even reached dresden before the capitulation. and to do that, ofc you had to burn down the entire city center. yes, that makes sense.
oh and 3 hors later, just when the rescue attempts really started, the 2nd wave started bombing the outer areas to disturb them.
ofc, to destroy a railway station thats all ok, especially if its so damn imporatant that there wasnt even any flak in the city.
Moving 500k of German troops via the dresden switches could conceivably put a large dent in russian progress.....this for the allies is a bad thing, you see why it became a target, yes?

The 2nd wave came later to prevent the fires being put out, yes. Generally you dont let the enemy repair the damage you've caused to him..thats just stupid unless of course part of your plan is to force him to divert resources away from somewhere else which in this case it was not.

There was flak around the city but not in it, in that you are correct.

1 outta 3 aint bad.

Perhaps you should try to understand *why* a rail centre is a vital strategic target before dismissing the notion.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:37   #67
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Exclamation Re: Enola Gay

No-one mentioned Canada until JJ mentioned that people were mentioning it.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:39   #68
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Re: Enola Gay

I was slightly confused by that myself actually. I just presumed I'd missed one person mentioning it and didn't bother reading the preceding 60 odd posts.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:42   #69
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikard
If it was not for america (and canada)
Ding ding.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:44   #70
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Re: Enola Gay

Ah, fair enough then.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 00:58   #71
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Exclamation Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Ding ding.
So a single person mentioning it in passing, in brackets, is enough for JJ to make an entire post on it?

Goodness, he really is drunk tonight.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:06   #72
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
is that so? read the thread or other like it before on the topic.
you misunderstand

to coin a phrase.

we, I, am proud of what we gave up. we destroyed ourselves in that war, an empire utterly utterly at its lowest, gave everything up, just to fight.
for years, day in, day out. we fought.

I am not proud of what we did, we are not proud of who we fought against. none of it matters

all of the great war was futtile.

the second we died in order to say no. not to an enemy, but to the world.

no one is 'proud' no one sane blames germany.

we just said no. and died.

its all we did. and we didn't really know why. and we had no chance of winning. we just said no. and in the end both germany and england were irrelevant. because the war was used for other reasons.

there would have been no difference which country in western europe had said no to facism. in the end. it is good and right for europe that one country did.

do not confuse our pride in doing what we did, with pride in what was done
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:11   #73
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Re: Enola Gay

There is absolutely no instance in which Bombing civillians can be justified. Be it the British Boming of Dresden, the Atomic attacks on Japan or the bombing of embassies in Belgrade. There is no justification.

Protecting soldiers is not a valid justification, Soldiers are there to fight and risk being killed it is what they are paid to do. In WW2, ok many were conscripts, but they still knew their duty etc. All that the bombings do is devalue the cause that the people are signed up too.

Americans being the world police is best defined through 'Team America World Police' which is so clearly true. Oh, and its not something new either. Marshall plan through too the invasion of Iraq etcetc, its all policing of the World. The difference now is, they will only attack countries with some important inside. (iraq= oil, for instance). Since Somalia they are no longer interested in losing men to save Africans, because they get nothing out of it.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:15   #74
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
There is absolutely no instance in which Bombing civillians can be justified. Be it the British Boming of Dresden, the Atomic attacks on Japan or the bombing of embassies in Belgrade. There is no justification.
and how else are we to learn that war is bad?

If we have clean clinical little battles between pur soldiers on designated battlefields?

do you have any idea what death smells like?

I refuse to sanitise war. civilians certainly deserve to feel it in a democracy, so they can feel and see how awful it is and through democracy stop it.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:19   #75
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Re: Enola Gay

There is a clear distinction between teh direct bombing of civillians and sanitisation of war. Civillians die in war whatever happens, there are obviously civillians that will die in conflicts.

Targetting Civillians is what i mean.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:23   #76
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Re: Enola Gay

i fail to see the distinction

and i fail to see a problem with directly targetting civilians. why should they be safe while they send their children to die?

war is appalling. only when everyone knows this, if need be with first hand experience, will it end.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:25   #77
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Re: Enola Gay

Its about morality, Yahwe. Its wrong.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:29   #78
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Re: Enola Gay

says who?

and war isn't wrong?

what do you want an 'honourable little war' as long as it doesn't affect you?

its not a soprtsgame for ****'s sake
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:31   #79
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Re: Enola Gay

Whats wrong with war being honourable? Why is that so terrible?

It wasn't a sportsgame in the past.

Just because we have the technology now to implement 'Total war' doesn't mean that its right.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:33   #80
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Re: Enola Gay

killing gooks is fun.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:39   #81
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
Whats wrong with war being honourable? Why is that so terrible? .
because that would be a lie.

it would be a lie that would mean making war was easy

the lie would hide the truth.

the truth is that war is awful and that people die.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
It wasn't a sportsgame in the past..
no it wasn't

and it should never become one.

don't get confused. civilians always died in wars. in the days before aircraft they just died at the end of the war and only on the losing side,

but they still died.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zakoff
Just because we have the technology now to implement 'Total war' doesn't mean that its right.
no war is 'right'
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Unread 3 May 2005, 01:55   #82
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Re: Enola Gay

Actually there's an international law that was formed thirty years ago or so saying that the USofA can pursue anyone who has committed a criminal act against/in the US to any point in the world. It was agreed nationally and hasn't been recinded as that might make them angry.

The US can **** up any criminals they want and it's legal.

Random True Fact
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Unread 3 May 2005, 02:03   #83
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Re: Enola Gay

a survivor of WOII said a few years ago:

When you look back to it, what we did, seems very silly ... but at the time it was very important.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 02:18   #84
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Re: Enola Gay

german?

was he?
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:00   #85
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Re: Enola Gay

English, SOE.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:02   #86
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Re: Enola Gay

oh

just typical british understatement then
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:09   #87
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Re: Enola Gay

yeah it might well do

silly

i like it

but do you understand it?
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:25   #88
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Re: Enola Gay

knock yourself out kid.

we made ww2. we did it, we created it, fought it and died during it.

i gues that means we get to describe it.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:27   #89
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Re: Enola Gay

I think norway was involved in World War Two as well man.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:35   #90
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Re: Enola Gay

do you.

as involved as you perhaps?
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:36   #91
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Re: Enola Gay

my my norwegian internal propoganda is nothing if not ambitious
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:40   #92
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Re: Enola Gay

Nantoz, you have to remember that Yahwe fought WW1 and WW2 alone, and won.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:41   #93
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Learn the beauty of a fully formed, and understandable, sentece.
i'll try my best
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Unread 3 May 2005, 03:50   #94
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Re: Enola Gay

while you all descend yet further into shitness

I feel i said it best when i said:

"[03:38] <yahwe-potters> i can't actually believe i am talking to people about norway's involvement in the war. what next? papua new guinea and the space race?"
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Unread 3 May 2005, 04:23   #95
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Re: Enola Gay

i hear papua new guinea actually manufactored the paint they used on the lorries that were held in reserve in case apollo 11 needed a last minute supply of peanuts.

so anyone who says papua new guinea wasn't at the core of the space race is just plain silly.
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Unread 3 May 2005, 05:09   #96
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
i hear papua new guinea actually manufactored the paint they used on the lorries that were held in reserve in case apollo 11 needed a last minute supply of peanuts.

so anyone who says papua new guinea wasn't at the core of the space race is just plain silly.
Pretty much. It's like contributing an infantry platoon and a truck to the eastern front and saying you won the battle of Stalingrad. I guess my quip pales in comparison to yours, that was classic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cressa
Ok so i just watched a documentary on the bombing of Hirosima during WWII. Something around 80 thousand people were killed due to this

Taking this into account with America's current foreign policy after 9/11 does the above not seem a greater crime than people flying a plane into a building.

Being born in the 70's i can remember the IRA blowing **** out of England in the late 70's early 80's...

Just because 9/11 happened does this give the USA to suddenly become the world police >?

Seems to me the USA have got away pretty lightly in the past...

Same hypocrisy there is true for every other country, nothing new.

The US was the "world police" before 9/11, perhaps you were too busy to watch the news?

What the US has done in the past that is 'evil' pales in comparison to most other countries that actually "do anything" worth noting. Saying we 'got off lightly' and complaining about it is hypocritical because other countries in the same period did things just as 'bad' if not worse. I think the English have 'gotten off pretty lightly' for all of the dead Scots, Welsh, Irish, Americans, Africans, Turks, Arabs, Indians, Afghans, etc that they racked up in the last few hundred years. Why don't you save us the post and go hate yourself?
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Unread 3 May 2005, 12:22   #97
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Re: Enola Gay

you have no history whatsoever, silly boy, go back to your corner and despise us for our culture, our history, our refinement, our understanding of the word 'compromise'
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Unread 3 May 2005, 13:07   #98
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Stop being so bloody ethoncetric, yawhe.
If you've read even a little bit of history you would know that WW2 in Europe was much more than just GB-Germany-Russia.
The smaller countries all amounted to much during the war. The sabotage at the heavy water plant in Rjukan might be one of the most important single-group acts during the whole war.
And that is of course not all of it.

Read and learn!


this absurdity made me giggle for a good 3 hours.


go team yahwe!
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Unread 3 May 2005, 13:52   #99
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Re: Enola Gay

Foreigners have no sense of humour
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Unread 3 May 2005, 16:31   #100
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Re: Enola Gay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Without the efforts of Norwegian partisans the Germans might very well developed nuclear weapons before the Americans. Frightening thought...
As they found out after the war, not very frightening. The Germans' plan for nuclear bombs were extremely bad, and the solution they were going to use was the one the Americans had concluded was the worst possible choice. So, while the Allies were afraid that Germany might develop nuclear bombs, it was never really a threat. However, they didn't learn that until after the war.
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