And this paper gets less shelf space than the Daily Fascist.. sorry Mail.

[Phang]

Originally Posted by Vaio

They are only resident once the employment agency has shipped them over here, stuck 12 of them in a 3 bedroom house and got them work. Until then they are foreign nationals.

and once they are here they are resident and contributing to the economy!

what part of this is complex?

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Phang

and once they are here they are resident and contributing to the economy!

what part of this is complex?

The bit you are ignoring, the bit where they are being used because they are cheaper to employ than the local population. I've made it easy for you. Make an effort and try and understand please, ta.

~Vaio~

[Ninja_spammer]

Originally Posted by Vaio

The last two jobs I have had have now been filled by workers from both Portugal and the Czech Republic at a lower wage Not their fault of course, but this is happening more and more in Cumbria. The major employers are recruiting from employment agencies who are supplying foreign workers and receiving grants from the EU as they are apparently giving training to said workers.

Naturally this won't be happening in your area so I expect you to dismiss this totally.

~Vaio~

Maybe they are just better than you.

More qualified, more experienced, harder working, maybe they are just nicer people.

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by Phang

are you actually genuinely complaining because the NHS deals with being short-staffed by hiring doctors???

sorry no, i was actually going to put something on the end about how all of the ones i had met were very nice, although in some cases their english leaves a lot to be desired, we give free internet access, so quite a few of them come in to e mail their family back home, and they are all dead canny, i was just responding to the post about their being real hardships with foreign workers getting NHS posts, when a lot of them are coming over really easily (im a lot of cases now, they are interviewed via weblink before they even enter the country)



EDIT: just out of interest vaio, which union are you a part of?

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer

Maybe they are just better than you.

More qualified, more experienced, harder working, maybe they are just nicer people.

It's possible, but as it's not only me that is affected, it's unlikely. Have a read of some of the other posts in this thread. It's better than jumping in after reading only a couple and posting something silly.

~Vaio~

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

EDIT: just out of interest vaio, which union are you a part of?

I was a member of USDAW.

~Vaio~

[roadrunner_0]

yeah, after looking at their website they look a bit shit

[Ninja_spammer]

So do you want positive discrimination in favour of natural born citizens when it comes to employment then?


Or do you just want to seal the borders and keep the great unwashed hordes out?


What was your job btw?
Was it skilled/technical? If so then the new employees probably *are* better at it than you were, it sucks but that is life.

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

yeah, after looking at their website they look a bit shit

If they were only a bit shit, it would be better than they are now.

Just curious, out of all those that think I am wrong in what I tihnk, how many of you have families ? or indeed any other responsibilities ?

~Vaio~

[roadrunner_0]

i don't think that you are wrong... as such, however, the union should be doing something about it, and you should be putting pressure on the local press to put pressure on the union and the employes to be doing something about it
I do however think that its not the imported workers fault, they are only looking for a better life

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by roadrunner_0

i don't think that you are wrong... as such, however, the union should be doing something about it, and you should be putting pressure on the local press to put pressure on the union and the employes to be doing something about it
I do however think that its not the imported workers fault, they are only looking for a better life

I agree, in their situation I would do the same thing, my problem is with the employers and agencies.

~Vaio~

[roadrunner_0]

as i say, the way forward is to go to the local press then, however you shouldnt have a go at the workers, as thet can quite easily be mis-construed, but, get them to look at the agencies, and the employers, paying people different rates for the same job isn't quite illegal, but it has striking similarities to certain kinds of discrimination which are illegal, and can get people sued

[Yahwe]

Individual issues always cloud reality with emotion.

reason can not survive long in such a polluted environment.

beware emotion

[zakoff]

The conservatives plan will not and can not stop the EU Freedom of Movement of Workers, Vaio. Therefore, you still would not have got that job. I believe that under this legislation an employer isn't supposed to chose between UK and EU workers. (I'm not sure though, its been a while since i studied EU politics).


The BIGGEST threat to UK jobs is NOT immigrants anyway. It is companies that are taking their jobs elsewhere. Nearly all of the lower paid services jobs have been outsourced to different countries, including places like India. In 2004, Norwich Union (the largest insurer in Britain) decided to cut half of its UK IT jobs and send them to India, to cut costs. This lost around 400 highly skilled jobs (I use this example because my parents work for Norwich Union, the Banks were the most extreme cases with call centres etc). Yet Daily mail readers or 'middle England' are more concerned about the few immigrants that want to work in Macdonalds or as cleaning ladies. The governement shouldn't be fighting in the UK and in the EU to protect our borders from immigrants, they should probably be fighting for legislation that protects jobs in the UK from being outsourced. If we played capitalism well as a country, we could easily get more jobs in this country, just by boycotting companies that don't have British call centres for instance.

Its actually still quite tough for a Doctor or Nurse to come to this country. From what i heard from some foreign nationals who are Student doctors abroad the tests they are required to pass to get a permit to practice as a doctor here are tougher than are given to Doctors trained within the UK. They do have to pass an English test too. Although most doctors, except GP's, tend to be pretty useless at communicating. Its nothing like ER or Casualty, consultants are the worst they never have time to be nice, clearly...

[Yahwe]

Originally Posted by zakoff

The conservatives plan will not and can not stop the EU Freedom of Movement of Workers, Vaio. Therefore, you still would not have got that job. I believe that under this legislation an employer isn't supposed to chose between UK and EU workers. (I'm not sure though, its been a while since i studied EU politics).

i can confirm this to be true

[Boogster]

I don't think the Conservatives are racist. There you go.

[Ninja_spammer]

They dont have to be racist, they have to let you think that they are.

[zakoff]

Originally Posted by Boogster

I don't think the Conservatives are racist. There you go.

i think the conservatives are a diverse party. There are obviously a few, quite traditional and old fashioned people, who could be considered racist in modern society.

However, the issue of immigration has not come up because of racism within the party, its because they believe its a popular issue amongst the electorate. They are also in need of ways to distinguish themselves from the Labour party, by swinging further to the right.

They aren't the BNP who are calling for voluntary and paid ethnic cleansing.

[Yahwe]

it has come up

it has come up because there are racists in marginal seats

come up.

this is not a bad expresion. because when i hear criticism of immigration my lunch also 'comes up'

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Hay man I hear this craaaaaazzzzzzzzeeeeeeey rumour that different people do different jobs. Confirm/deny please?

Nah, not for you dummies. Sorry, polar beear food is your niche.

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by zakoff

The conservatives plan will not and can not stop the EU Freedom of Movement of Workers, Vaio. Therefore, you still would not have got that job. I believe that under this legislation an employer isn't supposed to chose between UK and EU workers. (I'm not sure though, its been a while since i studied EU politics).

You forget to mention that the employers are playing labour up against each other, so they can reap the benefits. The solution is to demand the same level of pay for anyone, a UK citizen or a polish one, or atleast certain standards (and Im talking way over minimum pay).

Originally Posted by zakoff

(..)The governement shouldn't be fighting in the UK and in the EU to protect our borders from immigrants, they should probably be fighting for legislation that protects jobs in the UK from being outsourced. If we played capitalism well as a country, we could easily get more jobs in this country, just by boycotting companies that don't have British call centres for instance.

If you want to play capitalism well, you will have to compete against Slovakia (not to mention China) for instance. They have a corporate tax level of 15%, and wages below 50% of the UK level. On top of that comes less generel tax than the UK.

Look at the production of mainboards for computers. They used to be made in Taiwan. But the actuall production of the physical product is now mostly moved to China. For many companies its just the R&D who are back in Taiwan (looking at my own motherboard... Made in China..).
Same with processors, Intel makes them in places like Costa Rica and Malaysia (dont mistake me for a Intel buyer though).

So does anyone want to regulate the free flow of capital? Does anyone wants their country out of the EU? (since the free movement of capital is defined as a supreme right under EU law).

[LHC]

PAKIS DESTROYED MG ROVER AND STOLE THEIR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Nah, not for you dummies. Sorry, polar beear food is your niche.

OH THE ENDLESS SUFFERING AND AGONY.

[Deepflow]

Originally Posted by Weeks

The best bit on HIGNFY was the big when Merton went, in refering to Howard,

"Do you sleep in a coffin full of the soil from your own country?"

And Hislop's "It's unfortunate that his title is shadow- as he has no shadow" in refering to Letwin.

im getting a bit sick of vampire jokes regarding the tories. They all turn out to be boring and similar. luckily HIGNFY was generally much better and very very funny.

Oh, and when im the king of the world ill bury paul dacre alive

[G.K Zhukov]

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...cle1019842.ece

Its a arcticle about slovakians working for Volvo (rebuilding a plant) in Sweden.
The newspapers is the largest subscriber newsie in Norway, and its conservative (and pro-eu ofcourse).

According to the article, Volvo has paid their sub-contractor german wages. Then this german company has hired in these slovakian workers.
They work 10 to 12 hours a day for less than 1£ per hour. For a month this totals to 210£.

I think this is what the pro-EU people calls solidarity with the east-europeans.

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by LHC

PAKIS DESTROYED MG ROVER AND STOLE THEIR JOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe a lot of MG Rover's problems started way back in the 70's when it was held to ransom by 'Red Robbo' and the Unions.

~Vaio~

[Tomkat]

I bought the TES the other day.

I'm pretty sure you could stop a missile with it.

[Dante Hicks]

While there are poor areas and rich areas people will attempt to move from the former to the latter (or perhaps areas with few opportunities=>lots of opportunities). Getting annoyed about this process seems a bit silly, it's a perfectly predictible outcome to the first / third world division.

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

While there are poor areas and rich areas people will attempt to move from the former to the latter (or perhaps areas with few opportunities=>lots of opportunities). Getting annoyed about this process seems a bit silly, it's a perfectly predictible outcome to the first / third world division.

So I should, instead of complaining about it, be happy that my brother workers from another country have gained worthwhile employment ?

Right........

~Vaio~

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by Vaio

So I should, instead of complaining about it, be happy that my brother workers from another country have gained worthwhile employment ?

Right........

~Vaio~

Well, there's a variety of things you could do.

1. You could look at why employment decisions are being controlled by undemocratic forces with little or no accountability for people living in an area. Or why we're all left to compete for the lowest possible wages and conditions in the first place. Or why we all have long working weeks despite massive increases in productivity over the last hundred years.

2. You could look at why people are leaving County X. Do you think the people who leave Eastern Europe, or Southern Asia or wherever are doing so because they've heard great things about the North of England? They are doing so for a variety of reasons of course, but key amongst these reasons is the poverty or under-development of their home nation.

3. Or you could fantasise about building some sort of super wall which will make it impossible for people to enter Europe. And some fantasy potion that makes Europeans actually have enough children to stabalise the population without needing immigration.

I guess you'll be going for three.

[MrL_JaKiri]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

3. Or you could fantasise about building some sort of super wall which will make it impossible for people to enter Europe. And some fantasy potion that makes Europeans actually have enough children to stabalise the population without needing immigration.

I guess you'll be going for three.

That doesn't actually help since, as I pointed out, he's talking about intraeuropean immigration.

[queball]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

3. Or you could fantasise about building some sort of super wall which will make it impossible for people to enter Europe.

The Superwalls don't have to be perfect, they just need to make illegal immigration dangerous and difficult. It is perfectly within the state's power to reduce immigration.

And some fantasy potion that makes Europeans actually have enough children to stabalise the population without needing immigration.

Or suffering the consequences of letting the population fall. Would employment decisions controlled by democratic forces employ immigrants or not?

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by queball

The Superwalls don't have to be perfect, they just need to make illegal immigration dangerous and difficult. It is perfectly within the state's power to reduce immigration.

I nominate this to POTW, for its brilliant ignorence.

People freeze to death when they try to make it to Fortress Europe via the landing gear of a plane, or they drown in the mediteranian sea becouse the small boat ferring them wasnt solid enough.

START READING NEWSPAPERS MAN.

[onetwothree]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Why should every jew in the world be responsible for the crimes of Israel? There is huge difference in what different jews seems to be the core of the jewish fate.
For all we know, this man has never set his foot on occupied palestinian soil (aka the state of Israel).


Federico Mazandarani 1 - 0 Michael Howard

P.S to Phang: Send me regards to your dad!

Any jew supporting the zionist israeli state should be ashamed.

[queball]

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

I nominate this to POTW, for its brilliant ignorence.

People freeze to death when they try to make it to Fortress Europe via the landing gear of a plane, or they drown in the mediteranian sea becouse the small boat ferring them wasnt solid enough.

START READING NEWSPAPERS MAN.

You need to post in the POTW Nomination thread then.

So are you saying it is not within the state's power to reduce immigration?

[onetwothree]

1. open the doors to any immigrant
2. close the door to benefits (including non-immigrants)

[JonnyBGood]

No man has ever known what queball's actual political opinions are.

[Dante Hicks]

Originally Posted by queball

So are you saying it is not within the state's power to reduce immigration?

Of course the state can reduce immigration (we already do) but only in the same way in that it is in the states power to control the amount of illegal drugs that come into the country (i.e. not very effectively and perhaps with dubious consequences).

We could spend a lot more money and refuse a lot more asylum applications and things of this nature but it's debatable whether it would have that much more of an effect (and whether this would be a good use of political good-will / money).

Also, the issue is not really employment. I'd be quite happy for an immigrant to "steal my job" - working is tedious and boring for the most part. The issue is distribution of resources. Under the current system we have to sell our labour in order to buy necessities such as food, shelter and so on - if I do not work then discounting welfare I will starve or at least be in poverty.

This leads to the ludicrous situation where a highly skilled person entering the country who wants nothing more than to work hard can be a bad thing for the average Briton. In short, it makes anti-immigrant feelings rational.

Now, there might be some real economic goods where there is shortage (like housing) but this is almost always due to political stupidity and not economic realities.

[Weeks]

After contemplating Viao's problem, I suggest he start moaning about the lack of governmental policy in his area aimed at improving employement prospects instead of moaning about non-British citizens taking his jobs.

[zakoff]

Originally Posted by onetwothree

Any jew supporting the zionist israeli state should be ashamed.

where did that come from???

[G.K Zhukov]

Originally Posted by onetwothree

Any jew supporting the zionist israeli state should be ashamed.

Certainly, and as GD knows Im not a big fan of Israel. However, I cant see this man claiming support for Israel, besides its was not the subject discussed.

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Weeks

After contemplating Viao's problem, I suggest he start moaning about the lack of governmental policy in his area aimed at improving employement prospects instead of moaning about non-British citizens taking his jobs.

And I could also mention that I really don't like the Daily Mail

~Vaio~

[Vaio]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Yeah they're such a bunch of limp wristed liberals.

4000th POST!

No, it's cause the cartoons page is shit.

Fred Basset should have been put down years ago

~Vaio~

[onetwothree]

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

When you say 'state', do you mean the Israeli government or the existance of a Jewish state?

the current israeli state, not the theoretical existance of one.

Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov

Certainly, and as GD knows Im not a big fan of Israel. However, I cant see this man claiming support for Israel, besides its was not the subject discussed.

Where in my post did I make any accusation?

My reply is what came into my head when reading his post, and as far as this thread goes - is relevant and valid.

[Nusselt]

We have a super wall, well ditch, and it hasn't stopped them coming across! damn their eyes!